CTC Wings ATP Scheme (Merged)
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Insanity vs logic
Hello everybody
I don't post much on PPRUNE but being another cpl/ir/mcc holder and actively searching for any paid flying job out there, these pages on ATP have made interesting reading. I simply want to get a better insight from the guys swimming in this never ending abyss of a holding pool.
If G-ADAM is correct when he says that the AQC is 8400 pounds plus assessment fee plus 10 k for the type rating (excl food and acc) are we not getting ever closer to the 22k for an A320 type rating (incl base training) anyway? At least you have the TR and are not sitting in a pool where you have to wait for that call/slot for years to come.. if ever. CTC may decide to charge 11k next year or even 12k for the type rating. If you decide you've had enough after years of waiting in the ATP hold pool and want to do a self sponsored type rating somewhere else (airbus/boeing/atr/beech99 or whatever) you will then have spent close to 9k for an AQC incl assesment fee/food/accom and renewed your multi-ir at least twice (3k) for absolute nothing.
Is it just me or do others have the same trail of thought? Absolutely insane considering they tell you to your face that cadets have priority.
Am I missing something here?
(Edited this part of post. Too old for CTC anyway..)
I don't post much on PPRUNE but being another cpl/ir/mcc holder and actively searching for any paid flying job out there, these pages on ATP have made interesting reading. I simply want to get a better insight from the guys swimming in this never ending abyss of a holding pool.
If G-ADAM is correct when he says that the AQC is 8400 pounds plus assessment fee plus 10 k for the type rating (excl food and acc) are we not getting ever closer to the 22k for an A320 type rating (incl base training) anyway? At least you have the TR and are not sitting in a pool where you have to wait for that call/slot for years to come.. if ever. CTC may decide to charge 11k next year or even 12k for the type rating. If you decide you've had enough after years of waiting in the ATP hold pool and want to do a self sponsored type rating somewhere else (airbus/boeing/atr/beech99 or whatever) you will then have spent close to 9k for an AQC incl assesment fee/food/accom and renewed your multi-ir at least twice (3k) for absolute nothing.
Is it just me or do others have the same trail of thought? Absolutely insane considering they tell you to your face that cadets have priority.
Am I missing something here?
(Edited this part of post. Too old for CTC anyway..)
Join Date: Dec 2010
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maxed-out you are missing something.
You cannot compare this scheme to a SSTR on the A320. The AQC scheme gives ATP cadets the opportunity (however slim) to gain employment with one of CTC's partner airlines. Not just the chance to join a queue to get a Type rating with an apparent discount. Pissing money up the wall on a type rating with no hours on type is far less likely to gain you employment and is completely illogical!
You cannot compare this scheme to a SSTR on the A320. The AQC scheme gives ATP cadets the opportunity (however slim) to gain employment with one of CTC's partner airlines. Not just the chance to join a queue to get a Type rating with an apparent discount. Pissing money up the wall on a type rating with no hours on type is far less likely to gain you employment and is completely illogical!
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I understand where you’re coming from with regards to cost comparison of the CTC scheme and self-funding a type rating. However the point I was trying to make was that with CTC your chances of gaining employment after your type rating significantly higher due to their industry connections than after completing a self-funded type rating through another provider. It’s clear from many posts throughout the forum that a freshly minted TR with no line experience is not worth a thing to any prospective employer.
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it says on ctc wings facebook page they have apparently placed 88 pilots this year on type rating courses with airlines, does anybody know if this is true and how long do you reckon these pilots will be flying for, like more than 6 months?
I'm not going this time, but you absolutely have to get as soon as they open. When I went in November, they let us play with the 737 and A320 sims. Take the first tour when you arrive and try and get onto the simulators at the beginning of the day, otherwise the queues were a few hours long (thus leaving you less time to do the more constructive research). I had already flown a circuit at Gatwick in a 737 classic and landed an 800 at Geneva before the 10:30 presentation.
There is plenty of time in the afternoon to ask your questions and visit all of the workshops. Make sure you understand exactly how the CTC wings cadet scheme works before you go down and prepare your questions first. Although I monopolised his time, I talked to the director of the wings program at length and this is crucial in allowing you to make an informed decision. Don't be afraid to ask tough questions as you will look foolish later down the line if you don't know what your getting yourself into.
There is plenty of time in the afternoon to ask your questions and visit all of the workshops. Make sure you understand exactly how the CTC wings cadet scheme works before you go down and prepare your questions first. Although I monopolised his time, I talked to the director of the wings program at length and this is crucial in allowing you to make an informed decision. Don't be afraid to ask tough questions as you will look foolish later down the line if you don't know what your getting yourself into.
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Thanks for the reply GGG great info, I was aiming to be there by 9 anyways but great to know your feedback, are you currently at CTC if so do you mind if I ask why you chose CTC over OAA, PTC and CabAir.
I am due to start on the wings cadet scheme at the end of April. I looked at the various programs available and CTC looked like the best option. They seem to offer the best placement scheme. It is in their interests that you suceed and gain sucessful employment as it makes their statistics look better and therefore it is easier for them to sell the course to potential cadets. This is all beneficial to the student as in a roundabout way, they will have provide a high standard of training and also put in the effort to guarantee a cadets sucess.
I looked at PTCs flybe scheme, but I felt that the MPL would probably be a poor choice as it would leave me with a very restrictive license. I did not feel that cabair was as good value for money as the other schemes as there was no placement scheme. Regarding Oxford vs CTC, it looked to me like the CTC scheme had built a solid reputation (in the eyes of the airlines) and should lead to more employment opportunities than OAA. Also CTC use the most modern aircraft to train on (like cabair) to make the adaptation to a jet easier more me and thus will hopefully give a sponsor airline more confidence in my capabilities. I suggest you visit both and compare them yourself, CTC was my first choice and I was sucessful, had I not been I would have applied for the OAA APP course.
CTC impressed me the most and I am confident that they will provide a good package. It is a little more expensive than their competitors but I felt that it was worth paying the extra to ensure I have the best chance of gaining employment after training. I don't see any advantage in saving 25% on a cheaper course which will result in a considerably lower chance of getting a job. If you choose to take a loan for a course (modular or intergrated) without a financialyl suitable back up plan, then everything must be done to maximize your employability; something I feel this course does.
I looked at PTCs flybe scheme, but I felt that the MPL would probably be a poor choice as it would leave me with a very restrictive license. I did not feel that cabair was as good value for money as the other schemes as there was no placement scheme. Regarding Oxford vs CTC, it looked to me like the CTC scheme had built a solid reputation (in the eyes of the airlines) and should lead to more employment opportunities than OAA. Also CTC use the most modern aircraft to train on (like cabair) to make the adaptation to a jet easier more me and thus will hopefully give a sponsor airline more confidence in my capabilities. I suggest you visit both and compare them yourself, CTC was my first choice and I was sucessful, had I not been I would have applied for the OAA APP course.
CTC impressed me the most and I am confident that they will provide a good package. It is a little more expensive than their competitors but I felt that it was worth paying the extra to ensure I have the best chance of gaining employment after training. I don't see any advantage in saving 25% on a cheaper course which will result in a considerably lower chance of getting a job. If you choose to take a loan for a course (modular or intergrated) without a financialyl suitable back up plan, then everything must be done to maximize your employability; something I feel this course does.
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Just a suggestion
Can I make the point that although talking to the directors is a good idea, your time may well be spent a bit wiser talking to as many current and ex-cadets as you can. You will probably get a better insight into things like life in NZ, the flying, the instructors, the groundschool etc etc from them, than you would from the directors of the company.
Get as much information as you can, as these people are there to help and will (hopefully) tell it as it is. Any wings cadet will tell you it's not all rosy, as I suspect the directors would too (hopefully...), but the guys and girls who live and breathe 'CTC' everyday for a year and a half or so, are in my view, a far better source of info.
Get as much information as you can, as these people are there to help and will (hopefully) tell it as it is. Any wings cadet will tell you it's not all rosy, as I suspect the directors would too (hopefully...), but the guys and girls who live and breathe 'CTC' everyday for a year and a half or so, are in my view, a far better source of info.
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Guys, this is the ATP thread. Not the Cadet thread. 
Anyone wishing to discuss the merits of spending 80k with no guarantee of a job should go to the “Cadet” thread.
Those of us who have already spent 50k and have not yet got a flying job, should stay here and discuss the merits of spending a further 9k to still be without a flying job.
Back on topic, I think if you don’t have an MCC then AQC is worth doing, worst case scenario it’s a really expensive MCC with some extra bits thrown in which will probably be a good foundation for your future sim assessments. No point in spending the extra 5k on an FI course at the moment.
Interesting though that the waiting lists for MCC courses seem to be growing fast. Is this possibly a sign that those who delayed finishing their training over the past few years due to the economic conditions have seen a glimmer of hope and are now frantically dusting off that IR and booking their MCC? That would suggest a steady rise in the number of low hours modular fATPL applicants over the next 6-12 months, the queue keeps growing.
Then 12 months from now, perhaps another rise as ex-RAF cadets and pilots who’ll be joining civy street finish off their conversions and fATPLs?
The queue is just going to get longer.
Being British, queuing is something I’m naturally gifted at, the Italians have great cooks, the French have great romantics, the British have great ‘queuers’. If this were a Post Office, and you realised your queue is not going to move then you (if you're British) instinctively look around to see if any other queue might move quicker.
So given that, perhaps joining the ATP "Advanced Queueing Course" isn’t such a bad option?
Anyone wishing to discuss the merits of spending 80k with no guarantee of a job should go to the “Cadet” thread.
Those of us who have already spent 50k and have not yet got a flying job, should stay here and discuss the merits of spending a further 9k to still be without a flying job.
Back on topic, I think if you don’t have an MCC then AQC is worth doing, worst case scenario it’s a really expensive MCC with some extra bits thrown in which will probably be a good foundation for your future sim assessments. No point in spending the extra 5k on an FI course at the moment.
Interesting though that the waiting lists for MCC courses seem to be growing fast. Is this possibly a sign that those who delayed finishing their training over the past few years due to the economic conditions have seen a glimmer of hope and are now frantically dusting off that IR and booking their MCC? That would suggest a steady rise in the number of low hours modular fATPL applicants over the next 6-12 months, the queue keeps growing.
Then 12 months from now, perhaps another rise as ex-RAF cadets and pilots who’ll be joining civy street finish off their conversions and fATPLs?
The queue is just going to get longer.
Being British, queuing is something I’m naturally gifted at, the Italians have great cooks, the French have great romantics, the British have great ‘queuers’. If this were a Post Office, and you realised your queue is not going to move then you (if you're British) instinctively look around to see if any other queue might move quicker.
So given that, perhaps joining the ATP "Advanced Queueing Course" isn’t such a bad option?
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Does anyone from CTC read these posts? I doubt it, but if so, here's an idea for the guys at CTC that will keep both Cadets and ATPs happy and will make you some more money.
So, from my knowledge, for the past 8 months or so EZY have fetched around 200 pilots from the Cadet pool. I say this because I know of one or two people that were 200+ on the list and are already flying or busy with TR. So I'm guessing its ok to say that the cadets can be fairly happy with the way things are moving in terms of employment.
As for the ATPs all I know it that the pool is around 40 and there is no information (or at least I don't have any) of when the last one was called for TR nor when will be the next.
So my idea is why not take a punch of the ATPs, put them on TR courses for EZY or any other airline. This way the ATP hold pool will be reduced, people will here about this (either in person or here on pprune) and more people will gain interest in the CTC ATP scheme because they know it is moving. More people interested -> more ATP assessment days -> more AQCs -> more £££ everyone is happy
I don't think the cadets would mind waiting another month or two for their TR and giving a chance to guys and girls who have waited more than a year for the same opportunity.
Truth said, I know no one from CTC is going to read this and even if they did it would have no effect. Would like to read some comments from other ATPs on the waiting list or people thinking about going through the scheme.
Yes I am in the ATP hold pool. Been there for around a year now and don't mind waiting another year as long as I see things happening for us as well.
So, from my knowledge, for the past 8 months or so EZY have fetched around 200 pilots from the Cadet pool. I say this because I know of one or two people that were 200+ on the list and are already flying or busy with TR. So I'm guessing its ok to say that the cadets can be fairly happy with the way things are moving in terms of employment.
As for the ATPs all I know it that the pool is around 40 and there is no information (or at least I don't have any) of when the last one was called for TR nor when will be the next.
So my idea is why not take a punch of the ATPs, put them on TR courses for EZY or any other airline. This way the ATP hold pool will be reduced, people will here about this (either in person or here on pprune) and more people will gain interest in the CTC ATP scheme because they know it is moving. More people interested -> more ATP assessment days -> more AQCs -> more £££ everyone is happy
I don't think the cadets would mind waiting another month or two for their TR and giving a chance to guys and girls who have waited more than a year for the same opportunity.
Truth said, I know no one from CTC is going to read this and even if they did it would have no effect. Would like to read some comments from other ATPs on the waiting list or people thinking about going through the scheme.
Yes I am in the ATP hold pool. Been there for around a year now and don't mind waiting another year as long as I see things happening for us as well.
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Please note: The CTC Wings ATP database augments the CTC Wings Cadet hold pool. Pilots on the CTC Wings ATP database will be called up for type ratings when we do not have enough cadets ready and available for type rating.
Hopefully as the pool empties there will be a call on the ATP database. I am aware of at least one person who has been offered employment from this database recently. There may well have been more.
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Well said Maveric_Supersonic! I couldn't agree more. Fair enough the cadets should get priority however after a year in the pool and the huge amount of cadets that have been taken on sure they could take a few out of the ATP pool just to keep things moving.
There is only so long I can work for free at the bottom end of the ladder on crappy parachute planes I'm hoping after the amount of money I've spent, including forking out for the AQC, just to see a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel. Harsh times....
There is only so long I can work for free at the bottom end of the ladder on crappy parachute planes
I'm hoping after the amount of money I've spent, including forking out for the AQC, just to see a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel. Harsh times....
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I know of one who did the AQC and was then offered a job at Monarch- I am led to believe that he has 'very good contacts' within the airline and he is currently on a type rating.
I am probably about 41st on the ATP list having completed the course a couple of weeks ago. The instructors all seem to think that far more recruitment is likely in the near future... not sure whether the admin/office staff concur.
Would be lovely to see another airline come along and request enough pilots to wipe out the wings pool. Wishful thinking perhaps.
I am probably about 41st on the ATP list having completed the course a couple of weeks ago. The instructors all seem to think that far more recruitment is likely in the near future... not sure whether the admin/office staff concur.
Would be lovely to see another airline come along and request enough pilots to wipe out the wings pool. Wishful thinking perhaps.
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I am wondering, having passed the step 1, it still a lottery to book an assessment. Every time I try to book I get the following message :
No spaces are currently available, please try again later!
Now for me this seems fairly childish method of doing it, I got better things to do with my life then sit an try to log in, and always get this message!
Anyone similar experience how it works to get an assessment booked?
No spaces are currently available, please try again later!
Now for me this seems fairly childish method of doing it, I got better things to do with my life then sit an try to log in, and always get this message!
Anyone similar experience how it works to get an assessment booked?
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Personally I don't think it's something to get too excited about (at least in my case/opinion). Not been a UK resident, I don't think they are helping me out by inviting me to attend another assessment/interview (more travel costs) when I've already invested with CTC and when I could've applied directly with that airline in the first place.
Nevertheless, I wish those who do choose to go the best of luck. I'm going to refuse the offer as I can't afford to travel to the U.K. at this stage. Guess I'll have to continue in the queue.
Nevertheless, I wish those who do choose to go the best of luck. I'm going to refuse the offer as I can't afford to travel to the U.K. at this stage. Guess I'll have to continue in the queue.
Last edited by maverick_supersonic; 6th Apr 2011 at 18:12.