DEFO back at CX
The pilots' experience is one thing, but the radar fitted to the later A330s is sub-optimal, to say the least.
To say the most, it's crap. And now it has cost them money.
To say the most, it's crap. And now it has cost them money.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 1st Sep 2016 at 09:30.
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STP
Sighhhhhhhhh......
It is also important to understand how critical it is to have a crew of TWO fully qualified pilots in every airline cockpit, not a captain and an apprentice. Every safety protocol airlines use is predicated on having two fully qualified pilots. The captain should be the leader of a team of experts, not an instructor teaching basic skills to a novice.
TurningFinal36.....yes, a very experienced captain is just as susceptible to hypoxia....but I'm betting that he/she will get a mask on before pointing at the EICAS for 30 seconds and saying "Check Cabin Altitude and Rate".....get my point?
Sighhhhhhhhh......
It is also important to understand how critical it is to have a crew of TWO fully qualified pilots in every airline cockpit, not a captain and an apprentice. Every safety protocol airlines use is predicated on having two fully qualified pilots. The captain should be the leader of a team of experts, not an instructor teaching basic skills to a novice.
TurningFinal36.....yes, a very experienced captain is just as susceptible to hypoxia....but I'm betting that he/she will get a mask on before pointing at the EICAS for 30 seconds and saying "Check Cabin Altitude and Rate".....get my point?
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Sighhhhhhhhh......
It is also important to understand how critical it is to have a crew of TWO fully qualified pilots in every airline cockpit, not a captain and an apprentice. Every safety protocol airlines use is predicated on having two fully qualified pilots. The captain should be the leader of a team of experts, not an instructor teaching basic skills to a novice.
Sighhhhhhhhh......
It is also important to understand how critical it is to have a crew of TWO fully qualified pilots in every airline cockpit, not a captain and an apprentice. Every safety protocol airlines use is predicated on having two fully qualified pilots. The captain should be the leader of a team of experts, not an instructor teaching basic skills to a novice.
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Have a look at the accident of the SunJet Aviation Lear 35 N47BA. The captain not only had nearly 4300 hours, he was ex-military and a current Air National Guard instructor pilot on the KC 135 and so had probably undertaken decompression training at some time in his career. The rest, sadly, is history.
I quote these accidents not for some morbid sense of one-upmanship but merely to illustrate that no-one is immune from the ever-present risks associated with aviation, regardless of experience.
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British airways have been putting 200 hour cadets straight onto their jet fleets for decades. They are mostly, almost without exception, by far the best captains with which to fly. Great knowledge, open atmosphere and shallow flight deck gradient. Pleasure to fly with as an FO.
perhaps rethink your strategy for not wanting Chinese or Hong Kong nationals on your flight deck, because the hours thing isn't going to cut it. Why not just be unfront as its pretty obvious there's a huge race problem amongst some senior Cathay pilots.
perhaps rethink your strategy for not wanting Chinese or Hong Kong nationals on your flight deck, because the hours thing isn't going to cut it. Why not just be unfront as its pretty obvious there's a huge race problem amongst some senior Cathay pilots.
British airways have been putting 200 hour cadets straight onto their jet fleets for decades. They are mostly, almost without exception, by far the best captains with which to fly.
The less hours of experience the less baggage they carry?
Read a few Biggles books and Bob's your uncle...
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What does my continuing to train have to do with my belief in the premise that hiring experienced pilots is better than hiring candidates with no experience?
In light of my disagreeing with the fuel hedging policy, does my continuing to train make me a hypocrite? One has nothing to do with the other, so try to remain focused on my arguements.
In your post #285 you said it would be your last comment on this issue, but it wasn't.
Then in post #289 you said it would be your final word.....but then that wasn't.
For goodness sake, the most famous pilot in the world disagrees with you. If Capt. Sully Sullenberger's statements on the subject are suggesting that you are wrong, and yet you continue to argue....BINGO.......
Here is another quote from Sullenberger:
"Sullenberger cautioned that airlines were under "pressure to hire people with less experience. Their salaries are so low that people with greater experience will not take those jobs. We have some carriers that have hired some pilots with only a few hundred hours of experience. ... There’s simply no substitute for experience in terms of aviation safety."
STP, just for you, let me repeat that last line....
"There’s simply no substitute for experience in terms of aviation safety."
Now step back from your keyboard, sit on your hands for 60 seconds and ponder....
What does my continuing to train have to do with my belief in the premise that hiring experienced pilots is better than hiring candidates with no experience?
In light of my disagreeing with the fuel hedging policy, does my continuing to train make me a hypocrite? One has nothing to do with the other, so try to remain focused on my arguements.
In your post #285 you said it would be your last comment on this issue, but it wasn't.
Then in post #289 you said it would be your final word.....but then that wasn't.
For goodness sake, the most famous pilot in the world disagrees with you. If Capt. Sully Sullenberger's statements on the subject are suggesting that you are wrong, and yet you continue to argue....BINGO.......
Here is another quote from Sullenberger:
"Sullenberger cautioned that airlines were under "pressure to hire people with less experience. Their salaries are so low that people with greater experience will not take those jobs. We have some carriers that have hired some pilots with only a few hundred hours of experience. ... There’s simply no substitute for experience in terms of aviation safety."
STP, just for you, let me repeat that last line....
"There’s simply no substitute for experience in terms of aviation safety."
Now step back from your keyboard, sit on your hands for 60 seconds and ponder....
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raven11
Well, quite a lot I think. If you have a passionate belief in something, as you clearly do, then it’s incongruous to continue to take part in practices that are in direct conflict with that belief. You pleaded with me earlier when you said:
By continuing to train in a system that is patently in conflict with your basic premise in this discussion, i.e. that hiring experienced pilots is better than hiring candidates with no experience, then it could be construed by some that the message that you are sending is that you agree with them. Something you so openly and passionately disagree with and yet seem content to perpetuate does smack of hypocrisy I’m afraid.
With all due respect, you make no contribution to fuel hedging policy so I’m not quite sure why you raised that as an example of your being a hypocrite or not as it’s a non sequitur.
With all due respect, again, I’m trying my very best to find arguments among your emotive statements. By saying, "this is what I believe therefore I’m right and you're wrong", isn't exactly an argument to my mind. That others on this forum, or in the worldwide pilot body as a whole, might agree with you, doesn’t mean that you’re either right or wrong - you simply subscribe to a consensus view. There was a time when most people thought the Earth was flat or that the Sun and planets orbited the Earth. There was a time when physicians thought that blood letting was a cure all. Science and progress have debunked all of those consensus opinions.
No, I actually said it was probably my final comment. I was forced to respond to an allegation of impropriety by 2 academic authors of a report commissioned by the ATSB.
Not entirely accurate. I started the last paragraph with the word ‘finally’ as people often do when they make their final statement in a post.
The most famous pilot in the world? Is that a fact or simply your opinion? Chesley Sullenberger, like so many pilots before him, has had fame thrust upon him for the right reasons. His feat of airmanship was nothing short of exceptional and he was rightly recognised by the world’s press and his fellow pilots. I'm not sure how many pilots would have had the presence of mind in a dire situation to think as quickly as he did and I'll forever hold him in the highest possible esteem, just as I do our own MW and DH.
And my argument is that experience doesn’t automatically equate to competence. There is probably a link but it's by no means unequivocal. As quoted from the ATSB report:
I'm not making this up. As I’ve tried to illustrate throughout this thread, all of the accidents I quoted involved ‘experienced’ pilots. These actual, factual examples really happened; they are not simply my belief that I’m right because that’s what I feel. If you can refute these facts then please be my guest. Our difference in this discussion is that I’m stating facts and you’re stating beliefs based on your opinion. You have every right to your opinion, and I respect that, but please don’t lecture me like I’m a child when I choose to take a different position.
I would counter Sullenberger’s statement by saying there is simply no substitute for training, motivation, competence and continued application of all connected with aviation safety. Additionally, Sullenberger was saying that there is no substitute for airlines paying an appropriate salary to attract experience and, at that point he blurred the line between safety and industrial issues (and I think you are too).
If you’ve reached this far without popping a blood vessel, well done. Let me restate my position once and for all. I do not believe that ‘experience’ (hours), in and of themselves, are a metric by which we should assume a level of competence. I am not an advocate of MPL type pilot training. I do not believe that 'experience' makes pilots immune from making errors.
This will definitely be my final public post on this thread as our discussion is clearly of no interest to others. If you’d like to continue privately then you know my PM address.
STP
What does my continuing to train have to do with my belief in the premise that hiring experienced pilots is better than hiring candidates with no experience?
For goodness sake STP, our management agrees with you. What does that tell you?
In light of my disagreeing with the fuel hedging policy, does my continuing to train make me a hypocrite?
One has nothing to do with the other, so try to remain focused on my arguements. [sic]
In your post #285 you said it would be your last comment on this issue, but it wasn’t.
Then in post #289 you said it would be your final word.....but then that wasn’t.
For goodness sake, the most famous pilot in the world disagrees with you.
Here is another quote from Sullenberger:
... There’s simply no substitute for experience in terms of aviation safety."
STP, just for you, let me repeat that last line....
"There’s simply no substitute for experience in terms of aviation safety.”
... There’s simply no substitute for experience in terms of aviation safety."
STP, just for you, let me repeat that last line....
"There’s simply no substitute for experience in terms of aviation safety.”
The results indicate that while there are differences in performance between the various groups, the performance of the cadets and low-hour pilots against their direct entry and more experienced brethren is remarkably similar.
Safety message
The evidence in this report indicates that the cadet pathway for low-hour pilots is a valid option for airlines. There was no evidence to indicate that cadets or low-hour pilots within the airlines studied were any less competent or proficient than their direct entry and high-hour peers.
The evidence in this report indicates that the cadet pathway for low-hour pilots is a valid option for airlines. There was no evidence to indicate that cadets or low-hour pilots within the airlines studied were any less competent or proficient than their direct entry and high-hour peers.
I would counter Sullenberger’s statement by saying there is simply no substitute for training, motivation, competence and continued application of all connected with aviation safety. Additionally, Sullenberger was saying that there is no substitute for airlines paying an appropriate salary to attract experience and, at that point he blurred the line between safety and industrial issues (and I think you are too).
If you’ve reached this far without popping a blood vessel, well done. Let me restate my position once and for all. I do not believe that ‘experience’ (hours), in and of themselves, are a metric by which we should assume a level of competence. I am not an advocate of MPL type pilot training. I do not believe that 'experience' makes pilots immune from making errors.
This will definitely be my final public post on this thread as our discussion is clearly of no interest to others. If you’d like to continue privately then you know my PM address.
STP
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Could a SO / FO on C scale tell me how you are doing financially? How much you pay for rent, bills, etc and how much money you've got left in the end? Would like to know the experiences of people working on C scale.
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A few costs to consider:
1) rent: a 450 sq ft apartment in a fairly 'local' area, $15-20K hk /mo ($2000 - 2500 usd /mo.....and yes, I said 450 sq ft!)
2) burger $10-12 usd, beer $6 usd, steak $40-50 usd, average trip to the grocery store $80-120 usd, transportation $300 usd /mo,
3) tax: 15%, but usually you don't get a bill for the first two years, then you usually don't have the money put away, then you have to get a bank loan...etc.
4) travel: CX has the worst staff travel in the industry. you won't get on the flights most likely, and when you do, you will pay $400 usd round trip to the USA.
5) entertainment: movies $20 usd per ticket, night out on town $150 usd average (meal, alcohol, transportation etc)
If you are single, you can live reasonably comfortably, but cannot expect to save anything. Most of the new SO's are sharing accomodation, which can get very old very quickly, and forget about having a girlfriend. If you are married, don't bother. Don't even think about it. You will live miserably, she will get depressed and leave you. Your life will be a mess.
CX is not interested in providing a 'rewarding career' anymore. They just want bodies in seats. They are happy to exploit you until you get fed up and leave. They will dispute that of course, but the facts support that claim. There are better countries and better jobs to be had. Don't get trapped in a dead end career on the backside of china. Run away....as fast as you can.
1) rent: a 450 sq ft apartment in a fairly 'local' area, $15-20K hk /mo ($2000 - 2500 usd /mo.....and yes, I said 450 sq ft!)
2) burger $10-12 usd, beer $6 usd, steak $40-50 usd, average trip to the grocery store $80-120 usd, transportation $300 usd /mo,
3) tax: 15%, but usually you don't get a bill for the first two years, then you usually don't have the money put away, then you have to get a bank loan...etc.
4) travel: CX has the worst staff travel in the industry. you won't get on the flights most likely, and when you do, you will pay $400 usd round trip to the USA.
5) entertainment: movies $20 usd per ticket, night out on town $150 usd average (meal, alcohol, transportation etc)
If you are single, you can live reasonably comfortably, but cannot expect to save anything. Most of the new SO's are sharing accomodation, which can get very old very quickly, and forget about having a girlfriend. If you are married, don't bother. Don't even think about it. You will live miserably, she will get depressed and leave you. Your life will be a mess.
CX is not interested in providing a 'rewarding career' anymore. They just want bodies in seats. They are happy to exploit you until you get fed up and leave. They will dispute that of course, but the facts support that claim. There are better countries and better jobs to be had. Don't get trapped in a dead end career on the backside of china. Run away....as fast as you can.
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You can expect 14k based on 84 hours a month. This excludes per diem allowances or any 13th month.
Trafalgars figures are a little off, but it is expensive out here. He does love to pad his prose out with emotional rubbish, but that's easy to filter out. Perhaps they teach you how to pad out objective statements with emotional diatribes in training captain school.
If you're sensible, you can save plenty. I've had a great time and managed to do so. What will determine your ability to save is your accommodation choice.
Here's some key figures in my head.
These are all recently used by me.
For reference - 550sq ft one bed place in Discover bay - 12.5-14k.
2 bed 1050 (gross), 850 (net) sq ft place in Discovery Bay - 20-23k.
Add 60-80% to those figures to get the equivalent in town.
Beer - $8 when not happy hour. Most HH are 2:1 or similar.
Night out for two $200-300.
Champagne brunch for 2 $200
Transport monthly (living in DB) for two $170 ish
Groceries for 2 $150 a week
Cinema tickets $12-15
Cheeky pizza lunch for 2 $50 excl drinks
Curry for two $40 excl drinks
Local Chinese lunch $5-10
Western set lunch menus $15-20
Decent deli sandwich or salad $10
M & S salads bowl $5-7
Local flight (on staff) business class $120-200
Hotels for 3 night break each month $450-600
Long haul USA business class return $550
Junk boat outing $50-70 per person a few times a summer
Designer/name brand goods the same as everywhere, but without the great sales you find in the US.
Hope that pads it out for you. You can see that you can certainly get through it, but with a bit of discipline you'll be fine.
Of course, that is notwithstanding the need for a bigger place for a family. And I couldn't comment on raising a child here, but it looks like an expensive endeavour.
Trafalgars figures are a little off, but it is expensive out here. He does love to pad his prose out with emotional rubbish, but that's easy to filter out. Perhaps they teach you how to pad out objective statements with emotional diatribes in training captain school.
If you're sensible, you can save plenty. I've had a great time and managed to do so. What will determine your ability to save is your accommodation choice.
Here's some key figures in my head.
These are all recently used by me.
For reference - 550sq ft one bed place in Discover bay - 12.5-14k.
2 bed 1050 (gross), 850 (net) sq ft place in Discovery Bay - 20-23k.
Add 60-80% to those figures to get the equivalent in town.
Beer - $8 when not happy hour. Most HH are 2:1 or similar.
Night out for two $200-300.
Champagne brunch for 2 $200
Transport monthly (living in DB) for two $170 ish
Groceries for 2 $150 a week
Cinema tickets $12-15
Cheeky pizza lunch for 2 $50 excl drinks
Curry for two $40 excl drinks
Local Chinese lunch $5-10
Western set lunch menus $15-20
Decent deli sandwich or salad $10
M & S salads bowl $5-7
Local flight (on staff) business class $120-200
Hotels for 3 night break each month $450-600
Long haul USA business class return $550
Junk boat outing $50-70 per person a few times a summer
Designer/name brand goods the same as everywhere, but without the great sales you find in the US.
Hope that pads it out for you. You can see that you can certainly get through it, but with a bit of discipline you'll be fine.
Of course, that is notwithstanding the need for a bigger place for a family. And I couldn't comment on raising a child here, but it looks like an expensive endeavour.
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...apparently i'm a bit inclined to 'emotional rubbish'. Well, if you live in this apartment you won't even have room for emotion...or furniture. Come on in....the waters lovely.
Latest tiny flat project in Ho Man Tin offers 181 sq ft unit for HK$3.74 million | South China Morning Post
(oh, and by the way, that equates to about $480,000.00 usd...for 181 sq ft. Hong Kong expensive....NOOOOO ;-)
Latest tiny flat project in Ho Man Tin offers 181 sq ft unit for HK$3.74 million | South China Morning Post
(oh, and by the way, that equates to about $480,000.00 usd...for 181 sq ft. Hong Kong expensive....NOOOOO ;-)
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Fyi it looks like he mixed usd and hkd in the prices above. Yes one way staff travel long haul is over 500 usd for a biz class seat, insane. Sit on the jumpseat and its still 250usd each way.
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....the really disgusting aspect of our staff travel is that they tell you "it's a privilege". The only 'privilege' is their own staff being forced to spend their meager wages to contribute to the company's overall profit just to visit their families overseas. No other airline on earth treats their employees with such contemptuous greed.
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Add 60-80% to those figures to get the equivalent in town.
Beer - $8 when not happy hour. Most HH are 2:1 or similar.
Night out for two $200-300.
Champagne brunch for 2 $200
Transport monthly (living in DB) for two $170 ish
Groceries for 2 $150 a week
Cinema tickets $12-15
Cheeky pizza lunch for 2 $50 excl drinks
Curry for two $40 excl drinks
Local Chinese lunch $5-10
Western set lunch menus $15-20
Decent deli sandwich or salad $10
M & S salads bowl $5-7
Local flight (on staff) business class $120-200
Hotels for 3 night break each month $450-600
Long haul USA business class return $550
Junk boat outing $50-70 per person a few times a summer
Designer/name brand goods the same as everywhere, but without the great sales you find in the US.
Hope that pads it out for you. You can see that you can certainly get through it, but with a bit of discipline you'll be fine.
Of course, that is notwithstanding the need for a bigger place for a family. And I couldn't comment on raising a child here, but it looks like an expensive endeavour.
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150USD per week for grocery shopping? In DB?
Do you only eat rice and Chinese veggies?
I pay at least 3x that, and I am not buying expensive meat every day.
Just a bit of imported food every now and then (you know, ham, bacon, veggies or god forbid, even that expensive cheese or yoghurt).
As for kids, expect to pay another 400 to 800 USD per kid and per month, depending on their age, just for schooling. (company pays only 50% or 75% of fees, depending of the kid's age)
Do you only eat rice and Chinese veggies?
I pay at least 3x that, and I am not buying expensive meat every day.
Just a bit of imported food every now and then (you know, ham, bacon, veggies or god forbid, even that expensive cheese or yoghurt).
As for kids, expect to pay another 400 to 800 USD per kid and per month, depending on their age, just for schooling. (company pays only 50% or 75% of fees, depending of the kid's age)
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There's only two of us!
Most of our meat/fish comes from the N plaza butcher. Probably around $12 per dinner. Add in some salad or veggies for a few more bucks. 20 bucks to get some meat and fresh bread for a couple of days of sandwiches or whatever for lunch. The remainder going on household goods like detergents and bog roll.
The two of us probably have 3 dinners a week at home, with my schedule. On top of that, we'll eat out a couple of times, and grab lunches a couple of times while out and about. So, in reality, our weekly grocery bill doesn't include a weeks worth of meals. Hopefully that's cleared up any confusion.
Like I said, no idea about raising kids. Seems pricey, especially once they get to schooling age.
I'm not disputing that it's expensive to live here. It certainly is. I'm trying to spread a bit of light on some of my expenditure.
My main point is that at the salary level for DEFO, you've basically got a choice to make - housing - which will have a large impact on your leftover shekels. This is because you can spend anywhere from 12k to 200k for a two bedroom apartment.
I freely admit that we sacrifice somewhat on accommodation to fund lifestyle. It works for us, because it allows us to save, travel regularly and enjoy what HK has to offer in terms of restaurants etc. If we had a family, that wouldn't be an option; we'd have no option other than blowing more of our cash on housing and the lifestyle balance would swing the other way.
Most of our meat/fish comes from the N plaza butcher. Probably around $12 per dinner. Add in some salad or veggies for a few more bucks. 20 bucks to get some meat and fresh bread for a couple of days of sandwiches or whatever for lunch. The remainder going on household goods like detergents and bog roll.
The two of us probably have 3 dinners a week at home, with my schedule. On top of that, we'll eat out a couple of times, and grab lunches a couple of times while out and about. So, in reality, our weekly grocery bill doesn't include a weeks worth of meals. Hopefully that's cleared up any confusion.
Like I said, no idea about raising kids. Seems pricey, especially once they get to schooling age.
I'm not disputing that it's expensive to live here. It certainly is. I'm trying to spread a bit of light on some of my expenditure.
My main point is that at the salary level for DEFO, you've basically got a choice to make - housing - which will have a large impact on your leftover shekels. This is because you can spend anywhere from 12k to 200k for a two bedroom apartment.
I freely admit that we sacrifice somewhat on accommodation to fund lifestyle. It works for us, because it allows us to save, travel regularly and enjoy what HK has to offer in terms of restaurants etc. If we had a family, that wouldn't be an option; we'd have no option other than blowing more of our cash on housing and the lifestyle balance would swing the other way.
A big thank you for posting the information guys. Different viewpoints balance it all out. It may be helpful if you could keep the currency constant as you guys are mixing HKD and USD. No problem for a pylet I suppose. I flew an aircraft that burned in pounds per hour, load sheet in kilograms and the refueller only wanted to know litres to load, what could go wrong?
So You are saying salary around USD$14K per month (USD$168K pa) (AUD$220,000) plus per diem and bonus?
Accommodation FROM what HKD14,000 per month? USD$22K pa?
So ball park USD$ 168k minus 15% income tax leaves USD$ 142k then say minus USD$ 30k for housing leaves USD$ 112k (AUD$ 147k).
Is that about it?
So You are saying salary around USD$14K per month (USD$168K pa) (AUD$220,000) plus per diem and bonus?
Accommodation FROM what HKD14,000 per month? USD$22K pa?
So ball park USD$ 168k minus 15% income tax leaves USD$ 142k then say minus USD$ 30k for housing leaves USD$ 112k (AUD$ 147k).
Is that about it?
