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Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.


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Old 24th Dec 2011, 12:08   #1 (permalink)


Probationary PPRuNer
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London Base
Age: 60
Posts: 1
2012-13 Leave allocation

Just noticed that I've only had 2 weeks leave allocated and the other 4 weeks will need to be Pool Requests. But there are few leave slots available in the pool. Anyone else out there in a similar situation?
hakkeirs is offline   Reply
Old 24th Dec 2011, 13:43   #2 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 732
I have 2 weeks outstanding. The pool has 1 slot open for the whole year! We are obviously not short of crews!
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Old 25th Dec 2011, 01:57   #3 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: fishbowl
Age: 38
Posts: 14
same same. 2 weeks awarded but due to carry over from last time still have 6 weeks left over!
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Old 29th Dec 2011, 20:31   #4 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kansas City, USA
Posts: 11
same here. got 2 bids awarded, totaling 3 weeks (1 wk + 2 wks). Nothing in the pool.
apparent wanderer is offline   Reply
Old 29th Dec 2011, 22:30   #5 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 53
Same story here. Only two weeks provisionally awarded. Nothing in the pool for July or August. Guess I won't be getting a summer holiday with my children this year.

What a farce.
Sir KDM Lowe is offline   Reply
Old 29th Dec 2011, 22:35   #6 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 16
SuperJoker all the way!
ka500 is offline   Reply
Old 29th Dec 2011, 22:40   #7 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HK
Posts: 50
Not one week awarded, all 6 weeks to the pool
pasa001 is offline   Reply
Old 29th Dec 2011, 23:19   #8 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: asia
Age: 41
Posts: 153
I'm in the same boat, put 6 or 7 requests into the system, and got NOTHING! No doubt the company will try and allocate it one week at a time!!

CNUTS
buggaluggs is offline   Reply
Old 29th Dec 2011, 23:37   #9 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 53
Quote:
No doubt the company will try and allocate it one week at a time!!
.......in between long hauls no doubt.
Sir KDM Lowe is offline   Reply
Old 30th Dec 2011, 00:27   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Sai Kungah
Posts: 202
I'm sorry for your loss, pasa and bugga.


Spend some time learning how to use the system and you will have better luck next year.


P.S. It's not hard.


P.P.S. On the other hand, don't. It makes easier for me to get what I want. Sheesh, it's like getting the young ones to read their COS.
jed_thrust is offline   Reply
Old 30th Dec 2011, 01:27   #11 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HK
Posts: 50
Jed_thrust , I know how the system works , I just won't accept leave in Nov anymore! I've have kids and I'm tired of going on leave alone ! This year I will change it up, I have a plan and it doesn't involve me wasting my leave on shitty slots!
pasa001 is offline   Reply
Old 30th Dec 2011, 06:35   #12 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: hong kong
Posts: 166
JED

I think you will find that crew know how to bid, but no system will work if there are not enough slots made available. It seems that very few HKG based Boeing 747 or 777 pilots have been awarded more than 2-3 weeks leave.

The pool will not fix this as people will not throw in the pool if only half their leave has been awarded and risk being given single weeks allocated leave with little or no notice. When I last checked the pool there was 1 slot for the year

It is absolutely appalling that the leave allocation was changed a year or so ago to align (read delay) our leave year with the "operating Plan" to give the company better planning... and here were are about to go into the new year and I for one do not have a days leave awarded in 2012.

Got a feeling the S*it is about to hit the fan in FLT OPS if they cannot even get the simple basics covered.
CYRILJGROOVE is offline   Reply
Old 30th Dec 2011, 09:20   #13 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 497
HK Employment Ordinance

Maybe one of our armchair legal eagles can answer this. I remember hearing somewhere that it is a requirement of the HK Employment ordinance that you must have leave at least once in any rolling 12 month period.

So, if true, the company system of allocating all your leave in the 1st half of 2011, and then not giving you any more until the 2nd half of 2012 may be in breach of the ordinance.

Anyone know definite details???
broadband circuit is offline   Reply
Old 30th Dec 2011, 09:21   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Sai Kungah
Posts: 202
Pasa and Cyril,

Ok, I get it: you both know how the system works and you know how to bid.

So tell me this then: why would you bother going to all the trouble of sitting down in front of a computer and submitting a priority 1 leave request that has no chance of getting filled?


What's the point of that?


There will always be insufficient slots, or you may have insufficient points (or, with a different allocation system, insufficient seniority) for everyone to take leave at Christmas or in August. What do you want the company to do: hire another 1000 FOs so we can all have leave at the same time?


The point is that Cathay is (and will probably always be) running undermanned, so you have to wait your turn to take the highly prized leave weeks. In a previous airline one waited for the seniority, in this one you wait for your points.


It's all the same really.


No one who knows the system puts in a leave request that they know will be refused...
jed_thrust is offline   Reply
Old 30th Dec 2011, 11:42   #15 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 119
"The point is that Cathay is (and will probably always be) running undermanned, so you have to wait your turn to take the highly prized leave weeks. In a previous airline one waited for the seniority, in this one you wait for your points."

Not if you have kids .... then it is a reverse seniority system!!
744drv is offline   Reply
Old 30th Dec 2011, 12:16   #16 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cupboard
Posts: 270
Who says those with kids should get higher priority or better odds or more chances for leave at some particular time of the year than those without?

In most cases, those same weeks are just as highly prized by people without kids, people without boats, people planning vacations with friends or families, people who like Star Wars, people who wear glasses, people who don't like surfing, people from Italy, people with short hair, people over 5'10", people who prefer red M&M's as well as people who benefit from and suffer the pitfalls of both seniority-based and points-based leave systems.

There are 2600+ personal sets of circumstances that determine who wants what and when, and there is no perfect system, including seniority. A decent chance of everyone getting a fair shot at the best leave slots on a rotating basis is the intent of the point system. A slant toward seniority is already included with the ability to build up points over time before cashing them in if and when you wish.

As has been said before, there are simply not enough leave slots to match the number of weeks owed to everyone, and that needs to be protested loudly and made a top priority to fix right now.
Iron Skillet is offline   Reply
Old 30th Dec 2011, 12:39   #17 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 119
"Who says those with kids should get higher priority or better odds or more chances for leave at some particular time of the year than those without?"

I don't know ..... who did say that?
744drv is offline   Reply
Old 30th Dec 2011, 13:53   #18 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cupboard
Posts: 270
Fine, you didn't say that.

But you only brought up one variable (kids) to express your apparent dissatisfaction ("reverse seniority") of the leave system for those with kids...unless I really misunderstood you and in fact you prefer and wish for full reverse seniority for certain people's circumstances?
Iron Skillet is offline   Reply
Old 30th Dec 2011, 23:35   #19 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 119
No not at all. What I really believe in is not changing established systems at a whim. This almost invariably leads to some being disadvantaged to an even greater extent. No system is perfect, but continuously 'adapting systems' are the least perfect of all. My comment about 'reverse seniority' was just a personal laugh at my own position ... which admittedly has come about as a result of having kids. Through my own choices my points have become ever more negative with time, but I'm cool with that. I knew the system and I played it my way, for better or worse.
744drv is offline   Reply
Old 31st Dec 2011, 00:16   #20 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 53
I think we're missing the point. It doesn't matter what method you use to award leave, if you don't have enough pilots to meet your task, then you can't free up the slots. Thats why so many of us haven't been awarded more than a third of our entitlement. My children have already asked me how come their school friends have started finalizing their summer holiday plans, yet I can't even get one week secured in either July or August.

I've grown tired of watching my contemporaries in other walks of life not give the subject of annual leave a second thought. All my family and friends were penciling in their 2012 holiday dates/plans back in September. I don't think it's asking much, to expect a family holiday during the summer months. And it will continue to get worse as there's no incentive to fix it any of this. Sorry to sound so negative but that's the reality.
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