VISION THREAD (other than colour vision) [Archive]

Flight my fire

22nd Dec 2005, 23:38

Hello to all you !

Like many of you, I've got a big passion for aviation since my childhood. Unfortunately, not gifted by Mother Nature with my eyes, I've always heard that I could never a pilot with my vision.
I'm a 30 year old pilot, with a glider pilot licence and 200 flight hours and working as a dispatcher on an airport. But my passion is flying.
I hoped a few years ago that I could go on a CPL training in the USA, my myopia was in the US standards ( - 4.25 both eyes ) even if hadn't gone on a US medical. I was not with french standards either.
And at 20, I discovered that I had a small strabismus ( unvisible when people look at me ).
I considered unnecessary to go on a US medical, spending my money just to hear the doctor at the end telling that I'm unfit because i can't see all the pictures in relief. ( stereoscopic ), just a few ones.
I discovered that since 1996, there is no longer limits for diopters. Just be corrected 20/20.

My problems are :
Myopia ( not small )
Right eye ( -5.75 ( + 0.50 of astigmatism )
Left eye ( -5.50 ( +0.25 of astigmatism )

Too much for European Class 1 admission.

Strabismus:

3 diopters prisms beside my correction. ( FAA standards have a limit at 6 diopters prisms for esophoria ).

I have already read some people concerned with a problem of strabismus.
I know that medical standards are going in a better way with vision.
Would it be possible to get a FAA Class 1, in my case. Because it shouldn't be possible to get a JAA Class 1. ( In England or in France ). They're very strict in France ( I'm French ).
I'm sorry to be so long with my story, but I would be very happy to have comments from people in the same case as me, who could get a Class 1 in the USA or in Europe.
Thank you very much for answering me.

Blinkz

23rd Dec 2005, 00:13

I am not totally sure I understand exactly what is the main problem with your eyes. Do you meet the renewal requirements for the JAA medical? If so then the UK will issue you a class 1 deviation and will allow you to train and gain your licence.

Jimmy The Big Greek

23rd Dec 2005, 07:29

I don't think you will have any problem with your strabismus as long as you do not have double vision. They do not test your stereoscopic vision.

Flight my fire

23rd Dec 2005, 10:47

My main problem blinkz is the my stereoscopic vision which is not perfect.
For JAA, of course my myopia is within renewal standards ( - 8 diopters if I'm right ) but not within admission standards ( - 5 diopters, I don't know if deviation is possible in that case ), but is OK for FAA.
This year I met a colleague of mine, operated in childhood for esophoria as well, ( but with 24/20 vision )who succeded to get a canadian and a FAA Class 1. ( Sometimes Miss Luck comes by your side !)

Do you confirm Jimmy ? If I'm right , I remember that you're concerned , aren't you ?

Jimmy The Big Greek

23rd Dec 2005, 11:49

There is no stereoscopic vision requirement.
Don't do your medical France. France thinks they are better that the rest of europe and therefore they have their own requirements.

And by the way. you do not have esophoria you have esotropia.

Blinkz

23rd Dec 2005, 17:25

ah ok, talk to the UK CAA and they will give you some good advice. If you can meet the renewal limits then the CAA will most likely issue you with an intial class 1.

Flight my fire

23rd Dec 2005, 22:42

Ok i'm going to give a call to the CAA in order to know what could be my chances.
Yes in France, they always think they know about things better than the others but things are changing with new rules
since June in accordance with JAA.
( - 8 / + 5 diopters for renewal).
Hope that a deviation is possible.
Otherwise, stays the US option.

Excuse me Jimmy but as a friend told me, he was tested by FAA doctor for stereoscopic vision.

Other comments are welcome.

Jimmy The Big Greek

24th Dec 2005, 12:45

I know for sure that the FAA does not require stereopsis tests.
Maybe some doctors test it just to see the quality of the binoccular vision.

I think that you will not have any problems with JAA medical. Maybe for the FAA you will need to do a SODA since they are a bit stricter with strabismus.

Anyway, best thing to do is to take a medical and see what they say.

Flight my fire

24th Dec 2005, 14:48

Ok Jimmy. Let's try with CAA how things can go.
I'm surprised that FAA is stricter than JAA.
I thought that it was the contrary.
Anyway, as you read in my previous post I'm in the limits for FAA and CAA for my esophoria prisms ( 3 diopters prisms ) . It just remains that i won't be able to see all the 3 D pictures for JAA Class 1.
The only way to know is trying.

Merry Christmas, everybody !

pilotezulu

30th Dec 2005, 23:55

hey chaps,

just wondering if anybody could help me out in figuring out whether i would pass a class 1 medical with the condition of my eyes. i already have a class 2... so perhaps i may pass?

here are the details:

Sph Cyl Axis
-3.25 -0.25 165
-3.25 -0.50 15

I wear both glasses as well as contacts. Any body know anything about the requirements?

any feedback wud be great.

cheers.

Blinkz

31st Dec 2005, 00:24

You should be fine with that, class 1 limit is -5

pilotezulu

31st Dec 2005, 11:18

oh good deal...

don't want to get to -5 ... im assuming it gets worse with age. jeez.

probably shud start dosing up on the vitamin A eh? :)

thanks for the input Blinkz

Blinkz

31st Dec 2005, 12:20

you should be fine mate, the -5 limit is only for inital issue of the class 1, after that it goes up to -8 :ok: and I think that when you get older your eyes tend to go longsighted.

LGB

4th Jan 2006, 16:08

Check google for either natural vision or vision improvement. I have cut my nearsightedness in half. It is a matter of being able to relax the muscles in the eye when you are nearsighted.

Capetonian1

7th Jan 2006, 08:44

Flight my fire

8th Jan 2006, 12:29

Just to clarify a previous post, esophoria is a hidden or latent extra-ocular muscle imbalance. In other words it is a condition for a tendency for the eyes to either move inwards (esophoria) or outwards (exophoria). The presence of an eso- or exo-phoria is not noticeable when simply looking at someone, it can only be detected under certain test conditions. However, a tropia (esotropia or exotropia) is a visible "squint" and is obviously noticeable to anyone who would see an eye squinting either inwards or outwards.

Hello Capetonian.

Abslolutely, in my case it is clear , it is about esophoria. Hidden squint. It can be detected by tests done by an orthoptist ( among them , ball and stereocopic pictures ). It is not noticeable when looking at me .

Flyin'Dutch'

8th Jan 2006, 15:06

FAA does require Eso/Exophoria test for class 1 and 2.

Rest of Jimmy tG's posts is correct.

If you fall within renewal criteria but are outside initial criteria CAA can issue class 2 which can be converted to a class one when you get your CPL.

AlexEvans

8th Jan 2006, 20:59

I had an extended opthalmological (sp) examination in February at Gatwick. I was under the impression that LASIK was allowable but that ICL (implantable contact lens) were not. The optician there pointed out that this is not true - they treat each case on an individual basis, implication being that ICL's may be acceptable.

You could write to them/phone, or even book an extended opthalmology. Don't expect them to offer any encouragement though.

If you haven't done so already, I'd run your prescription past all of the LASIK providers. They all seem to have different treatment ranges.

Good luck.

Loose rivets

9th Jan 2006, 03:10

I think that when this was discussed a few months ago, it was mentioned that the lens implant was reversible. This is a major factor in making a decision I would think.

Surely, +- 6 is just outside the range for the CAA to accept the correction with LASIC? Yes or no, I would not make that bigger change to my eyesight by merely altering the front of the eye. It's never the same again.

Irishwingz

9th Jan 2006, 07:26

Alex/Loose Rivets

Yep I'm too far gone for Lasik and even if I met a clinic who stretched to offer me a solution I woundnt take it. Most seem to say that anything over +4.00 is not an option.

ICL (implantable contact lenses) are reversible so its more appealing to me. Having said that, I'm outside the preop limits anyway so I could go through the pain of the op (in my pocket!) and still get turned down. I'm still considering it though as flying is all I want to do.

Thanks for the continued info.:ok:

Flyin'Dutch'

9th Jan 2006, 09:52

Beware that even with the best ophthamologic surgeons and best materials and techniques there are complications possible. Some of which may mean that your vision deteriorates.

Reversible is not the same as popping a contact lens in and out.

Bear all of this in mind when you decide to go down this route. You don't want to get in a worse position than you are in now.

Flight my fire

9th Jan 2006, 12:00

Ok . FAA DOES require eso/exophoria tests for Class 1 and Class 2.
I should try to contact one FAA doctor in France and the CAA.

Jimmy The Big Greek

9th Jan 2006, 19:57

If it is only 3 diopters of esophoria there is nothing to worry about.
Your freind that had surgery did not have the same condition as yours.
The only thing is your prescription is a bit high but that will not be a problem for FAA medical and I don't think for JAA. I strongly recommend that you take an FAA medical exam in France and a JAA medical in the UK.
If I where you I would not worry so much about the medical instead I would worry much more about the following.
1) How are you going to finance your training without getting bankrupt.
2) How are you going to get a job.
Just to give you a taste. I graduated in 1998 with an ATPL and I have about 1600 hours of that 500 hours Multi-engine PIC.
Since then I have sent out about 2000 CV's (no kidding) and got only one interview. All my savings goes to flying and books in order to keep current and up to date.
I am 30 years old and I would really like to start a family but I need to wait for that job to come.....If I ever will get one.
Ín the situation I am right now I am not even able to have a girlfreind.
Last time I got laid was 4 years ago :{
If you ask me if I regret that I became a pilot the answere is....YES but it is vey hard to accept the fact that I may never get that job. All the money and effort I have put down on this, it is vey hard to just throw it away and say that I will do something else.
I would rather be a medical doctor and keep flying as a hobby.
These two problems are far more serious than your 3 diopters of esophoria or the lack of seeing stereoscopic images.

lepremier

10th Jan 2006, 01:06

FLEXPWR

11th Jan 2006, 15:41

Hi there,

Is there anyone who had laser eye surgery and flies commercially? Just a bit curious as more and more one can see TV Ads showing all different clinics offering this option.
Is there any restriction when it come to Med Class 1, or are there only designated clinincs that meet CAA/JAA approval?

Is it possible at all?

Thanks
;)

Dirty Harry 76

11th Jan 2006, 15:54

Hi

Not an expert on this subject but have a friend who had this done. After the surgery he then experianced vision problems in the simulater (Dark background and bright lights). This was obviously a scare for him and had to stop flying.

He was them refered to another laser Surgeon who specialises in flight crew and after more surgery the problem was fixed fortunately for him.

Good Luck

MyData

11th Jan 2006, 17:22

I'm no eye surgeon but...

One of the after effects of LASIK is that your eye has to readjust to the 'new' lens and so the pupil and controlling muscles have to recalibrate for want of a better word.

This means that in the dark (or in any high contrast environment - e.g. office lighting) your pupil, at it's most extensive, may be larger / smaller than necessary to allow the 'new' lens to focus all the light on the retina and so a blurring effect can occur.

I was told this would last for about 2 weeks. At first I accepted it. I had the op in the summer so night driving was limited - and I wouldn't recommend it. For me the blurring lasted six weeks or so and I did start to get concerned that this may be permenant, then the focus at night became pin-sharp as my eye finally adjusted.

Again, not as an expert, I would expect this could be fixed if the eye was re-scanned and LASIK'd. I recall during my scanning and pre-op there was great care taken to measure the pupil at maximum dilation. I was told not to drive for 24hours after the initial eye scans as drops are put in to relax the iris. Go outside in daytime after that and everything is blindingly bright, a look in the mirror shows the iris fully open.

With regards Class I or other medicals. There are certain aspects of your prescription which are taken into consideration BEFORE your LASIK treatment so it is best to check with an AME first before proceeding as the treatment may leave you with fantastic vision but you could still fail to meet the grade due to your pre-op prescription.

wateroff

13th Jan 2006, 21:14

Question to all -- Has anyone had any experience/issues with the above topic and airline requirements/exam tolerances? Cathay or other majors?? Does anyone know of their di-opter limits etc??

Capetonian1

14th Jan 2006, 10:23

I had "new lenses" put in both eyes just about a year ago primarily to repair cataract damage (years of sun abuse). I had mine done here in Singapore and although my licence still has a use of glasses clause, I have not had to wear them since my op.
I am very happy with the results but you must get "good" advice first.

Remember that the intra-ocular lenses (IOL's) implanted in the eyes after cataract surgery (removal of the lens nucleus and cortex) are placed into the "empty" original lens capsule that surrounded the original crystaline lens in the eye.

The implantable lenses referred to in terms of refractive surgery are very different. The original crystalline lens in the eye is not removed and the implantable lens is placed inside the eye, in addition to the original lens.

The procedure and results for operations to implant IOL's for cataract surgery are well established with very good and prectable success rates. However, the procedure for lens implants for refractive surgery is still developing, and as pointed out correctly in a previous post "reversible is not the same as popping a contact lens in and out". As with any form of eye surgery, the possibility of some complications does exist.

Jimmy The Big Greek

15th Jan 2006, 10:51

Every year I go to the optrician to check my vision.
I have come to the conclusion that the charts are different depending on what kind of chart they use.

In my experience the wall mounted charts have generally more light than the mirror projected charts.
I am very sure that on the wall mounted charts I see about 1-2 lines better than the mirror projected.

Has anyone had similar experience?

fhchiang

15th Jan 2006, 14:35

hahah..... my case..

Opthalmologist official report
R: 6/24
L: 6/18
Electrically-Illuminated Chart reflected through mirror

Aviation Doctor Official Report in my Class-1
R: 6/60
L: 6/60

hahah using Snell chart pasted on wall illuminated by Daylight

Jimmy The Big Greek

15th Jan 2006, 15:02

UUUUH if that is your eyesight.........your blind.

I think you got the numbers mixed up.

Jimmy The Big Greek

15th Jan 2006, 17:45

ok, It is you uncorrected vision that is 6/60.

fhchiang

16th Jan 2006, 01:34

haha.. well i'm just surprised...

how come both doctor mark my Uncorrected vision so differently?

maverfick

25th Jan 2006, 00:17

Have had my Class 1 since '97. On the last time out my AME told me I'd need glasses to pass the next one.

The problem is; my left eye can split a hair at 200 yards but the right has, over the years, become a somewhat poorer country cousin.

Should I consult an optician prior to my next renewal, and if so do i now need two pairs of glasses and two sets of prescription sunglasses to be legal on a commercial flight deck?:confused:

On a different tangent, please would someone enlighten me as to what causes this type of offset decline?

Loose rivets

25th Jan 2006, 02:48

Un qualified comments only I'm afraid, but....

Age and nature of the defect would help. Are you getting more long sighted or short sighted? Is there any astigmatism?

Was there always a tendency for the poorer eye to be a little lazy? So that what is happening now is just a worsening of a long term condition.

A precise assessment of the reason that your brain is causing the other eye to be ‘dominant' is needed. Can you improve the bad eye by spending time with the good one covered up. It only takes a few moments for you visual processing to start to ‘re-map'.

There has been some good help on eyesight just lately, but anyone will need plenty of information.

maverfick

26th Jan 2006, 10:12

I'm early thirties.

The vision is not so much long or short as just blurry.

Afraid I have no idea what an astigmatism is, but the eye has never been described as lazy previously.

Non Normal

26th Jan 2006, 15:49

Do see an optometrist ASAP. Firstly, poor eyesight is a nuisance for yourself. Secondly, I guess there's a chance that they won't renew your medical until you get your glasses, if your eyesight happens to have fallen below the required limit.

I don't know what country you're in, but you might well need a backup pair of glasses (if you are in the UK, you do, unless they changed things). Not sure about two pairs of normal glasses and two pairs of sunglasses though - I guess the way around it would be to have two pairs of glasses with clip on shades.

Loose rivets

26th Jan 2006, 16:16

In my unqualified opinion, you need to take immediate remedial action and this means more than going to an optician.

If the eye has become sub-standard, there is a reason and you need to know what is causing the problem. Just blurry, is not an option for a pilot.

There may be several reasons why the cornea, lens and or its encapsulation become unclear.

Local hospitals in the UK will usually have an emergency clinic with an eye surgeon in attendance. His staff will put you through a full check up before you go in to see him or her.

Astigmatism is in simple terms a variation of focus with angle. Any correction has to be made at a specific angle but the lens can be clear in other respects. However, the image even with moderate astigmatism, can be very unclear. Red LEDs on a clock for instance, can show a secondary image to one side, leaving the top an bottom well defined. Or any other angle of course.

Keep us posted.

fhchiang

27th Jan 2006, 16:38

hmm..

is Ortho-K allowed in Aviation??

how does it compare to LASIK, IOL implant as far as aviation is concerned

maverfick

3rd Feb 2006, 00:41

Red LEDs on a clock for instance, can show a secondary image to one side, leaving the top an bottom well defined. Or any other angle of course.

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????

Loose rivets

3rd Feb 2006, 03:27

I was giving an example of one particular angle, say 080, and the image that you might see with slight to moderate astigmatism.

I picked the colour red because there is a higher probability that this light will be problematic, or for the purpose of testing, demonstrate a defect more dramatically with an everyday object. An LED number is made up of 7 segments, three of which are horizontal and four vertical...or near enough.

A single point of light may show an almost complete secondary image, offset to a constant angle. The colour of the light may well affect the degree to which you see this error but the angle will stay the same.

Flyin'Dutch'

3rd Feb 2006, 17:05

You need an eyecheck with an optician, not some well intended guesswork on a BB.

thebdct

13th Feb 2006, 15:29

Hello,

I'm writing to ask if someone else know if strabismus (no diplopia or double vision) is a disqualifying factor for a class 1 JAA cartificate. The same for a class 1 FAA certificate.

Thanks in advance

hornet2006

1st Mar 2006, 11:49

Hi guys,

I have recently hit a brick wall with my application with the RAF for pilot. I have been told I have a -0.25 astigmatism in both eyes. I have had several private eye sight tests since and all have been different. So within a few months it seems to be all over the place!

Is there anyone out there who can offer advice or knows of someone who can help make my eye better and be fit for RAF pilot selection again?

Cheers, look forward to the floods of replys!

EGBKFLYER

1st Mar 2006, 12:37

I'm not an optician and I don't know much about RAF medicals, however I am astigmatic and I did have trouble in years gone by getting a civvie class 1...

There is nothing much you can do about astigmatism, any more than you can 'cure' short sight (the two often go together by the way). 0.25 dioptres is about the minimum a high street optician can measure, so you have very little - are you sure it was only astigmatism that cuased the medical failure?

Your varying prescription can be due to measurement error and/ or age - my eyesight didn't fully stabilise til I was about 22. Your optician will do a couple of tests to establish both the severity (CYL number) and orientation (AXIS number) of astigmatism - it's worth reading up on the tests to make sure that the optician does it properly and you give consistent answers. That will give you the best chance of a 'true' reading.

There's reasonable information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astigmatism to get you started on research.

Can't help much more I'm afraid - it's worth saying that as long as other aspects of your vision are OK, 0.25 astig will not prevent you from a civvie job...

Good Luck

Loose rivets

1st Mar 2006, 15:14

This seems extraordinarily low figure to be rejected on. Keep the application on the boil while you try to find out more if you can.

You mention that it seems all over the place, but the big question is, does the angle change?

hornet2006

1st Mar 2006, 16:30

Not too sure what you mean by changing angle... The biggest reading ive had in one eye so far is -0.5. A test at christmas said I was zero in my left eye and -0.12 in my right, then 3 weeks later left eye was -0.25 and right eye -0.?!

Ive got nearly 6/4 vision in distance so it is purely the astigmatism thats screwing things up. Have another date for selection at cranwell in may so need to act fast if anyone knows how to help?!

Cheers

Loose rivets

1st Mar 2006, 22:05

I always have to say that I'm a (retired) pilot not a doctor, before going too far with advice, but your particular problem interests me, and there's a lot at stake.

There is just a small chance that your case is caused by a factor other than a God given distortion in the lense/cornea . The variability is the only clue that makes me think that it is worth mentioning the following at all.

By changing angle, I mean that the AXIS changes. They will give a figure like 080 for instance on a script. Now, if this changes quite often, you may be causing the astigmatism, by distorting your eye--by tension for example.

The old fashioned card with black spokes was good at giving a quick indication of astigmatism. Some spokes would be in sharper focus than others.

( by darker I guess they mean a more intense black with sharper edges. )

http://www.eyecareindia.com/subcontents.asp?subcontentid=37&sectionid=6

Many years ago, my optician (and pal) use to complain that I was never the same twice. Some days there was no indication of astigmatism at all, and it is this similarity, at a not dissimilar age, that makes me think it's worth mentioning.

Once, when the 5 year medical was in London, I had walked down Kingsway against a bitterly cold wind. I could scarcely see the chart, let alone the bottom line. Total panic. The doctor was fine, he said your eyes are in spasm, you'll be okay in a few minutes. He let me warm up, and I was back to reading the bottom line. This was extreme and had a very specific cause of course.

I'm convinced that these spasms can cause all sorts of temporary problems...including slight de-focusing--of one type or another. I am also convinced that anything from cold, to tiredness, or even emotional stress, can be a factor. If you could self check wether, as the day wore on, the angle changed...in a similar pattern each day, this would be a good indication of the processes taking place. I mentioned recently how an LED looks to someone with astigmatism. A small point of light on a hi-fi for instance, may be all you need to get a rough idea. Any astigmatic distortion might look like a secondary lobe, at a given angle from the primary point of light. If this relative position changes with time, you will have a clue.

What to do. You have plenty of time to find out what is going on, but finding a good ophthalmologist must be the way to go. As suggested above, you need to be sure that the readings are accurate. Then you have to explain your concerns so that you get another check a couple of weeks later or so. In fact that would have to be the premise on which you make the appointment.

Should you find that the angle does change a bit, then you need to make careful notes on factors that may be causing the problem, tiredness after long drives, or a stressful day for example. If the error reduced significantly after say, several good nights of sleep, then there is a chance that if you could be relaxed enough for the eye-test, you would not have a problem.

hornet2006

2nd Mar 2006, 12:10

Wow, thank you for that reply!!

I do want to see an eye specialist to see what they say and was thinking of trying to get an appointment with a specialist RAF optician.

As a university student, sleep is certainly not something I get a great deal of, late nights are the norm. Im trying to get early nights now to see if that does change the astigmatism. I would not say that in my day to day life I am stressed, but the general situation with my eyes and how it is affecting my career is I suppose causing a high degree of tension, and it is something I think about everyday.

Im going to see a someone who teaches you how to relax your eyes (based on the Bates method) in a couple of weeks. Thougt that would be worth a try!

I am convinced by the varying degree of astigmatism having noticed no change in my day to day vision that it is environmental. The problem is Im not sure whether, even if I proved this to the RAF they would consider me for pilot. Do you think when I go for selection again I should take my prescriptions and explain to them how I dont think it stays at a constant angle?

If you know of any good specialists I would be very grateful! Thank you for your advice you have already offered me though!

Bahn-Jeaux

3rd Mar 2006, 23:54

Just had my eyes done and the optician said that most people have astigmatism albeit slightly so dont know what to say.
He mentioned the figure of +.25 but i wasnt really concentrating on the fine detail. Thats what mine are at now at 47 years of age.

7120

5th Mar 2006, 07:38

To help can you answer these:
1. Clarify the precise reason for rejection; was it absolute level of astigmatism, fluctuation in astigmatism or some other reason.
2. Can you post the results of your Optometrist visits ie the result for SPH, CYL and AXIS each time
3. What prompted you to go to the Optometrist in the first place?
4. Why have you had more than one Optometrist test?
5. Do you have a link to visual requirements for the RAF?
6. Have you had a RAF medical? If so can you remember what eye tests were carried out?

hornet2006

5th Mar 2006, 09:25

Hey 7120,

ok ill reply in list format as you asked!
Reason for rejection: Purely out of eye sight limits, both eyes have to be 0 0, no astigmatism in either eye.

Mr results at Cranwell in november 2005: I had -0.25 in both eyes in cylindrical axis, not spherical. This was the only problem.

Why Visit other opticians?: To get second opinions, see if cranwell got it wrong. Also having never had anything wrong with eyes until now, I wanted to see if my astigmatism changed.

Did my astigmatism change?: Yes!! November cranwell said -0.25 in both eyes (cyl). December I was told at spec savers I had 0 in left eye, and -0.25 in right eye . January I was told at spec savers again, different optician though, 0 in left eye, and -0.12 in right eye(all cyl again) February it had gone -0.25 left eye and -0.5 right eye. So as you can see no consistency at all!!!

Have I had an RAF medical?: Yep and failed it on eye sight, just cyl astigmatism. They tests they did seem the same as high street opticians. Place lenses in front of the eyes and see if dots on a wall are clearer or blurry with different refractive lenses.

I think that is all you asked!! Hope you can help me!

7120

5th Mar 2006, 10:56

First some observations:
1. Astigmatism is highly prevalent in the normal population. Measured values are usually low and are no barrier to normal vision; your measured, uncorrected, vision of 6/4 is two lines better than normal.
2. These low levels of normal (physiological) astigmatism vary between tests and are subject to measurement (in)accuracy. The variations you quote are normal.
3.If all the Red Arrow pilots were checked by an Optometrist weekly for a month they would all have measureable astigmatism and it would fluctuate. Yet they all have (better than) normal functional vision.
4. I'm struggling with the RAF's "0 0, no astigmatism in either eye". This is non sensical, vide supra. The USAF limit for pilots is 1.5 dioptres of astigmatism - if I read the regulations correctly.

Advice:
1. Seek no more Optometrists observations - they'll just add to the confusion.
2. Get the RAF examiner to confirm - in writing - the result of your eye exam ie. that you have normal uncorrected vision (both eyes), normal depth perception (stereopsis), normal field of vision, and normal eye movements.
3. Get them to confirm that their sole reason for failing you is -0.25 cyl in each eye and ask for a copy of the visual regs.
4. If it turns out that all is well with point 2 and that written vis regs don't exist I think you have got a good chance of changing their mind.

Just come across visual standards for RAF entry dated oct 2004. Quoted maximum astigmatism for pilot is +0.75. Looks like your well inside - the sign is irrelevant

hornet2006

6th Mar 2006, 08:29

Again, thanks for the advice!

I have seen the visual standards for the RAF and they do quote +0.75 astigmatism but not -. Surely the '-' sign must mean something or otherwise I would have been fit??

So providing I can get this written confirmation from the RAF that the reason for rerjection was just because of the astigmatism, you think I could change their mind... do you mean I should tell them that it fluxtuates and so it is irrelevent? I hope your right but I dont quite understand how even if it is just atigmatism that made me unfit how I can chnage their mind.

I have considered applying to the navy and they quote +1.25 to -0.75 cylindrical allowance, so I would be fit for that wouldnt I?

Look forward to your reply!

7120

6th Mar 2006, 19:33

The sign, - or + is irrelevant. Even RAF "medical" examiners should grasp this one. You'r within published limits. The "fluctuation" in your astigmatic measurements are immaterial - for reasons stated.
Balls back in your court to get them to clarify their position. You may want to - selectively - show them my posts.
Good luck, PM me if you get stuck.

hornet2006

6th Mar 2006, 20:09

Right well I will contact the RAF this week and get those results. Do you think I should question them about the plus minus sign and whether that makes a difference? I dont understand why that would have rejected me for pilot if that was the only reason.

Once I have these results, what do I do with them then, take them with me when I go for selection in May as nav and try change their mind then...or bring it to light now. Think now would be better! Or then ring the RAF up and question them on their reason for rejection?

Can I ask what your profession is?

Thank you for your help, very much appreciated.

Aloyscious

11th Mar 2006, 05:58

Hi people,

What is the minimum requirement for eye sight for cabin crew? What is the maximum short sightedness that one may have?

Please share with me...thanks

Blapto

11th Mar 2006, 13:21

I'd just like to add that I know someone who was rejected from the RAF for the same reasons as you, went back to OASC for RN and is now whizzing around the sky in a Sea King.

Of course, from a military point of view, the RN is quite different from the RAF, but it all depends on what you want to do.

Beermonster-au

12th Mar 2006, 22:08

As someone else has mentioned, the "+" or "-" sign for your astigmatism is irrelevant, this comes from the fact there are two conventions for writing a prescription for astigmatic correction.

There will also be a 90 degree change in the axis angle when you convert from one system to the other, and if you have any sphere power in your prescription, this will also change

To convert plus cyl to minus cyl:

1. Add the cylinder power to the sphere power
2. Change the sign of the cyl from + to -
3. Add 90 degrees to the axis is less than 90 or subtract 90 if the original axis is greater than 90.

To convert minus cyl to plus cyl:

1. add the cylinder power to the sphere
2. Change the sign of the cylinder to from - to +
3. Add 90 to the axis if less than 90 or subtract if greater than 90

fhchiang

13th Mar 2006, 11:31

well..

prior to my Class-1 examination, my optician says i'm 6/6 each eye with

R:-4.25D -1.75D
L:-4.25D -1.50D

____________________________________________________________

when i went for my checkup... the doctor requires me to visit an Aviation opthalmologist as i didn't bring any optician report..... i was prescribed at

R: -4.50D -1.75D
L: -4.25D -1.75D

____________________________________________________________ ___

well sure enough.. i got my Class-1. 2 months later.. i visit my optician and retested...

R: -4.25D -1.75D
L: -4.25D -1.50D

so guys and girls... always visit your trusted Optician/Opthalmologist........ unfamiliar ones may OVEr prescribe you, which you don't really need...... and because of the little difference... you may fail your class-1 initial.

BTW... the Class-1 i'm talking about is a MALAYSIAN DCA CLass-1

hornet2006

16th Mar 2006, 16:35

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the replys, I spoke to the Royal Air Force after several opticians confirmed that the plus minus sign was irrelevent... but the RAF still said no. Could not quite understand their reasoning for ignoring this fact but I am stil trying to question it.

Will have a look at the navy, believe I am fit for that!

modelman

16th Mar 2006, 19:38

Went to Specsavers today.Had a very thorough eye test.They spent ages with me going over the pros and cons of varis vs bifocals ( I even took an air chart with me).
Anyway, I settled on a pair of good varis (£280) and they said if up to 60 days later you no like they will change them for singles or bifocals no charge.
They have a BOGOF offer on at the moment, so I have delayed my second pair until I have tried out pair 'A'.
Thought that was pretty good service.

Modelman

TCAS FAN

16th Mar 2006, 19:41

Anybody heard if they are doing a BOGOF deal on their Beech 350s?

Martin4

17th Mar 2006, 19:12

Hi,

iv just had a look on google, i believe the visual requirements for class 1 medical astigmatism are no more than 2.00. On my glasses prescription is has the following:
____________
Right Eye:
Sphere = -0.50
Cyl = +2.50
Axis = 10

Left Eye:
Sphere = -0.50
Cyl = +2.75
Axis = 165
____________
So my question is, am i over the limit? if i am, is there any other options?
Please give me some information & hope!

Martin

Eddie_Crane

17th Mar 2006, 20:36

Hi Martin,
just my opinion:
you appear to be over the initial limits for astigmatism, however if you phoned the CAA and asked them about the "deviation route" they might be able to help you. Make sure you have your prescription handy.
Also, considering you are quite young and have plans on serving in the armed forces for a while, you might be able to obtain a normal Class 1 in the future when regulations change.
Have a look at this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=198207), this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=215941) and perhaps this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=213378) too. Best of luck :ok:

Martin4

17th Mar 2006, 20:49

Thanks for that, looks like there might be hope! if they put the astigmatism limit down to the same as class 2 id be there!

I also hear that the australian medical requirements are... not as strict/high, do you know what the medical is called?

Martin

Eddie_Crane

17th Mar 2006, 21:09

Not sure what the Australian Class 1 Medical entails... perhaps you might wanna try n ask that in the D&G forum...

As for hope.. well you are very young, so be patient, get as much info as you can (not just here, but also from official sources, e.g. the CAA, schools, etc..) and don't give up pursuing your "dream career" :)

Martin4

17th Mar 2006, 21:19

and don't give up pursuing your "dream career" :)
Ill try not to. A few months ago i was really into flying but people told me i had just to much against me that i couldnt do it (qualifications, money, eye site) so i went away from the aviation subject for a while. A career untill im 26 in the royal air force regiment will hopefuly sort out the money/finantual and qualitications issue, so.... only really the eye site i am concerned about.

Martin

Eddie_Crane

17th Mar 2006, 21:39

Martin,
piece of advice, worthless as it may be coming from me, but still... my 2p worth (no pun intended...):
do not let anyone/anything put you off your dreams, ever.
If it is something you really want and come back to.. thinking about, dreaming, well then if you don't give it a shot you're going to regret it. So do not give up and just go ahead with your plans. Once you get there you will reap the "fruits of your labours" :)

Martin4

18th Mar 2006, 09:26

ooo right... do you know the exact figures for lasik?

gonadz

21st Mar 2006, 12:25

Hornet2006

check your PPrune personal messages inbox..

ST-EX

21st Mar 2006, 17:22

Hi everyone, I realise this may have been discussed a million times, but I'm new(this is my first post)and just wanted to clarify something. I am going to my local optician tomorrow as I want to check I meet the requirements for a class 1. I looked on the CAA website, but just wanted to know if I needed to bring any forms for them to fill in? If so, which forms?

Thanks in advance for any replies!

chrisbl

22nd Mar 2006, 22:29

Download this form from the CAA and take it to the opticians to complete. Then you will have everything the CAA will want.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_Med_Extended_eye_exam_optometrists_form_Aug-04.pdf

Superpilot

25th Mar 2006, 07:37

Are there any parts of the initial Class 1 eye test that are not carried out in subsequent renewals? or carried out more than one year apart?

Thanks

matrix777

1st Apr 2006, 17:39

Hi Folks,

Had Lasik surgery back in January, going for the Initial Class 1 in April. Eyes site was within preop limit before procedure and delighted with post op surgery results, eyesite now 6/4 with out any complications.

Anyone else out there who has had Lasik and has gone for and passed the, initial class1 medical without restrictions, within the same year of having surgery.

Thanks.
Matrix 777

sicky

1st Apr 2006, 18:01

sorry slightly off topic - is 6/4 better than 6/6? i had my eyes tested as wasn't sure how good they were, and i have 6/6 (which is 20/20) so i should be fine hopefully

my girlfriend's mum had laser eye surgery, but not sure which one and she doesn't fly, so i'm nto being much use really, sorry!! lol

AlexEvans

1st Apr 2006, 19:56

That's great, glad to hear that things have worked out for you. Please let us know how things go with your class 1 initial.

I'm about to have LASIK myself (on just one eye) for the same reason. It's a hell of a risk though - 1 in 40 chance of corneal haze, so if both eyes were being operated on, 1 in 20 chance of never seeing a class 1 medical certificate on eyesight grounds anyway.

Scary.

Charles Darwin

2nd Apr 2006, 17:17

I had a Zyoptix (a advanced form of Lasik) last year with 100% succsess. Had a Class 1 before with restrictions but they went out without remarks 3 weeks after the operation. :ok:

[

Elbo

3rd Apr 2006, 10:00

Hey all, is it true that one must have 20,20 vision to be a pilot in the military? or anywhere for that matter? Could someone please explain the 20, 20 vision thing as well? Also could one get laser eye surgery to correct their vision if it wasn't 20,20 and if so would the forces allow you entry to become a pilot if you had it?
Thanks:)

Moved from colour blindness thread, as this post has nothing to do with colour blindness. BM

geezajob

4th Apr 2006, 22:38

I went to an optimologist, or optomologist I don't know. Thought they were opticians. Anyway, he checked my eyes obviously and they weren't perfect. Although I was getting them checked for the purposes of a pre CAA Class 1 medical check he said he got a lot of pilots in due to his location and that I'd be fine even for the RAF despite them not being dead on. Only £20 and there's bound to be someone near you who can do similar.

Not sure about the RAF's limits or their opinions on laser surgery. I hear the CAA aren't too keen on LASIK and the like so the RAF are bound to have some views. Bit vague but all I can muster I'm afraid.

G

sicky

5th Apr 2006, 00:05

20/20 is the same as 6/6. it's something to do with seeing a "size 6" letter at 6metres, or 20feet. I'm not sure on the "size 6" part, but i know the distance is 6metres or 20feet. There are guidelines on the CAA website, but i think 20/20 is the minimum, i wasn't sure myself, so i printed the webpage off, took it into the otpicians and she checked my sight against the guidelines and said i wasn't even close! I was so pleased.

You can get better than 20/20 vision, which is normal vision. You can have perfect vision which is i think 6/4, where you can see a "size 4" from 6metres, or you could see a "size 6" from a larger distance etc

Bad medicine

5th Apr 2006, 21:45

It seems that nearly every day there are questions relating to visual standards, and whether an individual meets them. On many occasions, these questions have been answered before. Over the next few days I'll try to consolidate these posts into a more user-friendly archive. Please look here first, and you may find your answer.
Cheers,
Bad Medicine

si_lud

11th Apr 2006, 15:28

This may be a long post (and is one of my first!), so bear with me!

Just before starting my ATPL training I had Laser eye surgery on both eyes. With an initial requirement of -5.00 / +5.00 dioptres I was initially outside the JAA requirements, since my left eye was at -7.00, with a slight astigmatism. The UK CAA advise against LASIK for all sorts of reasons, but I went ahead and did it anyway, for two reasons: first of all, there was no way I was going to get a Class 1 if I didn't, and secondly, if I couldn't be a pilot, I would at least be able to dispense with contact lenses in everyday life!

The surgery went perfectly, leaving my with 6/4 in both eyes. The lower the second number, the better the vision, so 6/6 is "normal", and 6/60 is terrible. This is the European system, as it uses metres: the Americans use feet, which is why 6/6 = 20/20 and 6/60 = 20/200, in case you were wondering. My eyesight is now exceptional: I have no blurring, haze, haloes or night vision problems whatsoever. (Moorfields Eye Hospital, if you were interested!)

The UK CAA issued me with a Class 1 medical with a JAA deviation, which means I am allowed to fly all UK-registered aircraft, but would need to seek permission from other countries (mainly European - for example, the US FAA only stipulates 20/20 or better corrected or uncorrected, and is not worried at all about laser surgery).

For revalidation, the limits do indeed increase to -8.00 dioptres of myopia (short-sight), with the upper limit remaining at +5.00 for hypermetropia (long-sight). However, this does not apply to eyes corrected through surgery! Obtaining this tiny nugget of information involved an incredibly long trawl through CAA/JAA paperwork!

So, where does this leave me? Obviously, as the proud owner of a UK-issued fATPL I can fly any UK aircraft, but am limited to UK only: not an excellent prospect for any UK carrier who have some foreign aircraft. There have been rumours for years about the JAA limits being increased, due to many tests on lager surgery patients, but nothing has happened yet.

I have a solution, which I am currently pursuing. I am contacting the various European authorities for their permission to fly their aircraft, regardless of whether or not I ever will. Armed with letters from most of the European aviation authorities, whenever anyone queries my "restriction" on my licence, I can now point out that there is in fact no reason why it will restrict me whatsoever. The legal documentation may place a restriction, but none of the member states will exercise that restriction. I already have such letters from three authorities.

Why am I telling you this? If enough people act on this information, and prove that there is no need for such a restriction on laser surgery, perhaps the JAA will finally take note and bring the restriction in line with current corrective measures (e.g. glasses).

Here's hoping...
:ok:

Flight my fire

11th Apr 2006, 16:01

Hi Si Lud and all of you !

Si Lud, reading you is interesting and thank you for sharing your feedback.
That's excellent if you succeded in getting a Class 1 after surgery with pre-operation refraction of -7.00. Good news. I'm at -5.75.
If i understood well you have a restriction on your license ?
Restriction for UK registered aircrafts only.

I'm amazed because there is an regulation trick the english use for aspiring pilots exceeding -5.00 of myopia. I was told that they accept to deliver a Class 1 certificate for one year just limited to UK registered aircrafts only but at the first renewal the applied limits become -8.00 ( as written in the standards ) and your medical becomes JAR completely and therefore your licence too even if delivered in UK, enabling you to find a job as a pilot anywhere in Europe or where JAA licenses are recognized. So this restriction as no reason to remain after the renewal.
It is just like for the medical waiver which removed until your CPL-IR licence is completed. Did you get a waiver for your Class 1 ?

Good luck. Happy flying.

si_lud

11th Apr 2006, 17:02

I think you're probably right regarding the waiver, but in my case I had laser surgery. As a result, it's treated differently by the JAA, and the revalidation limit remains at -5.00, which means that my temporary deviation remained as a permanent deviation.

Which is crazy, because my vision is much better than a lot of pilots I know, even if they are using glasses or contact lenses!

AlexEvans

11th Apr 2006, 17:56

Hi. Sorry for the life story, but the details are necessary :) .

Does anyone have direct experience of having LASIK on an eye that is showing some signs of changes in the endothelium or that may be the early signs of Fuch's dystrophy? Or are you a medical professional with an opinion on this subject?

Here's the story:

I have a problem. I can't get a CAA class 1 medical because of the 4.0 diopters of astigmatism in my left eye exceeds the CAA limit (2.0 diopters).

I've been to aviation house for an 'eyes only' medical, which is the eyesight portion of the initial class 1 medical examination. Although advising against having LASIK (like they always will do as you know) they did confirm, in writing, that if I had successful LASIK to reduce the astigmatism to less than 2.0 diopters then they would issue a class 1 medical.

Unfortunately, they also spotted an abnormality in the endothelium (layer of cells at back of cornea) that does not affect me now and is unlikely to affect me in the future - but that may be affected by having LASIK. One eye doctor that I have seen (Ultralase, Tottenham Court Road, London) is of the opinion that LASIK can cause the rate of degeneration of the cells in the endothelium to accelerate and will not perform the LASIK procedure for that reason. This is also the opinion of Adrian Chorley, the optician at Gatwick AMD. Another eye doctor in Cambridge has advised me that there is no real risk of this happening and said he would be happy to perform the LASIK procedure, leaving me pretty confused. He also diagnosed that my eyes had 'subtle discreet anterior lesions that were not characteristic of Fuch's Dystrophy'.

So I'm faced with a tough decision. Do I have LASIK so that I can be issued a class 1 medical and run the risk of losing my medical (and cornea) permanently at some indeterminate time in the future due to endothelial dystrophy (as well as running the normal, more immediate risks of having LASIK such as corneal haze, infection, partial flap formation etc...) or do I give up on ever getting a JAA CPL/IR fATPL?

I know no-one can answer this question for me, but has anyone been in a similar situation or are you a medical professional with an opinion on this subject?

I believe that the FAA route of instructing in America and working in Africa is still open to me, but I'm considering giving up on my ambition to become a pilot if I will never be able to fly for a living in the UK.

At the moment, my only idea is to see another eye doctor for another opinion.

Any comments?

Flight my fire

11th Apr 2006, 18:29

Hi again !

Ok you seem to know a little more than me on the subject because you are concerned.
Yes I agree with you I don' t follow their logic as long you see very well now and better than some pilots flying with their glasses or contact lenses. Besides , they still allow ( even though they don't recommend it) until -5.00 as long post op vision is stable , and no bad effects appear.
But maybe with time they will remove your deviation. Anyway it is no a problem if you can fly that's what is important.
What is more worrying is your restriction to UK registered aircrafts. Normally if your licensed is delivered as a JAR license it allows you to fly anywhere. I don't understand why they restrict they normally have no reason to do it. Otherwise it's not a JAA license. It's CAA license.
Stupid for England who plays the game of Europe now for Flight Crew licenses. There is a discrimination.
Hope there is a solution to your problem.

I wiill search what you asked for, If I get anything I will answer you by PM.

rubber

14th Apr 2006, 08:29

i read in here

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED_JAR_C1_Initial_Visual_Stds.pdf

the pre-operative refraction should not have been more than +/- 5.00 dioptres (applicants just outside this range should contact the CAA Medical Division for advice.)

not sure if it applies to astigmatism as well. But something tells me it does.

Flight my fire

14th Apr 2006, 17:43

Hi there.

Alex if you read the medical text you will see that you are within admission standards for Classs 1. You can have an astigmatism until +5.00 of refraction.
You have +2.00 so you are inside.
The limit of +2.00 of astigmatism is for myopia with of component of astigmatism. In that case this part of astigmatism must not exceed +2.00.
But if its's just an astigmatism only, so the limit is +5.00.

There must not be a difference of 2.00 dioptres between each eye. Anisometropia.

For example if one eye is +2.00 the other one must not be +4.00.

Good luck.

Jimmy The Big Greek

14th Apr 2006, 19:59

You are wrong there. You can not have more than 2 diopters of astigmatism for initial certification.

AlexEvans

17th Apr 2006, 19:52

I'm wondering if there are any other surgical methods that are allowed. I know that LASIK and Intra Ocular Lenses are 'allowed', meaning that Gatwick consider them on a case by case basis, but it is not clear if I'm suitable for either of those.

Does anyone know of any other plausable treatment that might be worth looking into? I remember seeing one on TV where they made slits in the eyeball to change its shape. Do the CAA/JAA allow that? I've also heard about hard contact lenses that change the shape of the eyeball, if only temporarily.

Seagull61

19th Apr 2006, 15:18

Hi,

Can anyone advice on if the limits below are acceptable for a class 1 - i`ve seen various limits but nothing concrete! I have short sightedness in both eyes and the following prescription

SPH CYL AXIS
Right -3.25 +0.75 70
Left -2.50 +0.25 15

Thanks

AlexEvans

19th Apr 2006, 18:39

But don't take my word for it:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED...isual_Stds.pdf

You may find the vision - other than colour vision thread useful too.

magicembraers

22nd Apr 2006, 19:12

ChewyTheWookie

22nd Apr 2006, 21:01

I did my FAA private license last year and planned on getting a class 1 medical at the same time. Unfortunatly my eyesight fell below the requirements so I accepted a class 3 and decided to reapply for the class 1 after seeing my optician back in the UK.

As it turns out I have perfect vision in 1 eye but pretty poor in the other. Due to the difference in standard between the eyes, and the fact that I have lived with uncorrected sight for the past 20 years there is now nothing they can do to correct the problem so I cannot achieve 20-20.

Does anyone know if it is now possible for me to obtain a class 1 certificate?

Flight my fire

23rd Apr 2006, 15:14

whats the story with non-bioccular vision for pilots? i want to be a commercial pilot, get the CPL and ATPL but im not sure of the legislation with this one thing for the class 1 medical. I have 20/20 vision and see as well as anyone, but its the muscle balance thing thats off, but it never seems to make any difference. ive taken flying lessons and had no problem sight wise.... so anybody know whats the story? are there exemptions available? have there been non-binoccular vision pilots before?

Hi there !

I'm in the same situation as you beside a myopia of -5.75.
Not lucky. I'm currently looking for infos about it, and found a few ones, cases of pilots who succeded in flying commercially in North America and Canada with this problem.
Some with problems of esophoria, exophoria, amblyopia,strabismus , and strabismus operated in childhood and therefore a deficient depth perception. They fought for it and they won.

What about you ? Do you have a strabismus or that kind of thing, esophoria , exophoria, hyperphoria ?
Look at the standards to see your are within the prism diopter limits.

Seagull61

24th Apr 2006, 15:51

Flight my fire

24th Apr 2006, 18:40

Hi,

Rather then starting another thread i`ll tag onto this one!

Can anyone tell me if the JAR Class 1 medical varies from authority to authority. I`m currently in Norway and wanting to take a medical here, but i`ve been told on the grapevine that the vision range is 3.0 diopters, whereas i`ve read it`s 5.00 diopters on the UK class 1.

I have tried in vain to search the Internet and contact the Norwegian CAA, but to no avail.

Cheers

Hello !

JAR standards are clear !! For myopia, the limit is - 5.00 diopters at admission. For renewal it becomes -8.00.
But interesting info, CAA can deliver a Class 1 ( with a little trick on the regulation) for people over -5.00 with a deviation with restriction to airplanes registered in UK only, at your first renewal the limit becomes - 8.00 and then your deviation is removed and with no restriction enabling you flying all european airplanes.

AlexEvans

24th Apr 2006, 21:36

Hello !
JAR standards are clear !! For myopia, the limit is - 5.00 diopters at admission. For renewal it becomes -8.00.
But interesting info, CAA can deliver a Class 1 ( with a little trick on the regulation) for people over -5.00 with a deviation with restriction to airplanes registered in UK only, at your first renewal the limit becomes - 8.00 and then your deviation is removed and with no restriction enabling you flying all european airplanes.

Pity they can't do that for astigmatism: 2.0 diopter limit initial, 5.0 diopters for renewal.

Flight my fire

24th Apr 2006, 22:16

Yes. My answer above was about myopia only.

si_lud

25th Apr 2006, 11:38

AlexEvans

25th Apr 2006, 21:53

That's right: the CAA can offer a deviation for >5 dioptres and then remove it after a year, but ONLY for glasses/contact lenses. It doesn't apply to laser/refractive surgery.
The new regulations coming in will increase the limit to -6.00 dioptres. Which is still not enough for me :mad:

Do you know if the initial and renewal limits for astigmatism are going to change with the new regulations?

They are currently 2.0 dioptres (initial) and 5.0 dioptres (renewal).

si_lud

26th Apr 2006, 16:07

I don't know much about astigmatism. I can't remember where I found the new regulations, but it will definitely be in Appendix 13 to Subpart B of FCL-3. (If you have any idea where to find that!)

Flight my fire

27th Apr 2006, 19:13

Hi to all !

Do you know when the application of new standard -6..00 for myopia will be effective for aclass 1 initial ? Is it for soon ?

Jimmy The Big Greek

27th Apr 2006, 21:50

NPA-28 will most likely be effective in November.

I must say that that the U.K CAA is really trying to relax the requirements and make them more "logical"

AlexEvans

3rd May 2006, 10:29

I'm asnwering my own question here, so this post is really for the information and benefit of anyone searching on this topic.

Hi. Sorry for the life story, but the details are necessary :) .
Does anyone have direct experience of having LASIK on an eye that is showing some signs of changes in the endothelium or that may be the early signs of Fuch's dystrophy? Or are you a medical professional with an opinion on this subject?
Here's the story:
I have a problem. I can't get a CAA class 1 medical because of the 4.0 diopters of astigmatism in my left eye exceeds the CAA limit (2.0 diopters).
I've been to aviation house for an 'eyes only' medical, which is the eyesight portion of the initial class 1 medical examination. Although advising against having LASIK (like they always will do as you know) they did confirm, in writing, that if I had successful LASIK to reduce the astigmatism to less than 2.0 diopters then they would issue a class 1 medical.
Unfortunately, they also spotted an abnormality in the endothelium (layer of cells at back of cornea) that does not affect me now and is unlikely to affect me in the future - but that may be affected by having LASIK. One eye doctor that I have seen (Ultralase, Tottenham Court Road, London) is of the opinion that LASIK can cause the rate of degeneration of the cells in the endothelium to accelerate and will not perform the LASIK procedure for that reason. This is also the opinion of Adrian Chorley, the optician at Gatwick AMD. Another eye doctor in Cambridge has advised me that there is no real risk of this happening and said he would be happy to perform the LASIK procedure, leaving me pretty confused. He also diagnosed that my eyes had 'subtle discreet anterior lesions that were not characteristic of Fuch's Dystrophy'.
So I'm faced with a tough decision. Do I have LASIK so that I can be issued a class 1 medical and run the risk of losing my medical (and cornea) permanently at some indeterminate time in the future due to endothelial dystrophy (as well as running the normal, more immediate risks of having LASIK such as corneal haze, infection, partial flap formation etc...) or do I give up on ever getting a JAA CPL/IR fATPL?
I know no-one can answer this question for me, but has anyone been in a similar situation or are you a medical professional with an opinion on this subject?
I believe that the FAA route of instructing in America and working in Africa is still open to me, but I'm considering giving up on my ambition to become a pilot if I will never be able to fly for a living in the UK.
At the moment, my only idea is to see another eye doctor for another opinion.
Any comments?

I posed this question to a number of opthalmic surgeons: Does LASIK increase the rate of degeneration of the cells in the endothelium of a person who is showing some signs of endothelial changes that are not characteristic of Fuchs Dystrophy?

Here are the responses:

1)The long terms risks to the endothelium are unknown, but there is no evidence to suggest harm with meticulous surgery. The detemination as to the current health of your endothelium is based on specular microscopy. Make sure this test is performed before any ocular surgery is contemplated.

2)No one knows for sure?

3)If your career hangs in the balance, I would not chance it. There have been studies done that show that the LASIK does not harm the endothelium, but I would be careful.

4)There is evidence that LASIK can slightly accelerate the loss of cells. Very slight. If you have no corneal edema, AND your current cell count is acceptable (you should have this measured), I think LASIK is a viable option. Know that contact lenses also cause loss of endothelial cells, so if you are currently a contact lens wearer, you are already taking a risk...

5)You could have a endothelial cell count performed to resolve the question. The issue is not whether the endothelial cell would be reduced from the procedure, which I belive the risk is not high, but whether the endothelium is sufficient to allow you to have good healing and excellent vision. Endothelial dystrophy naturally progresses regardless as to whether you have the surgery or not. If it progresses, your vision will be compromised either way. If your cell count is borderline or low, do not have the procedure done.

6)I am not aware of any endothelial porblems from LASIK.

7)LASIK surgery should not have any impact on the endothelium, but I am curious if there is an underlying cause as to the changes that are present. You should certainly have your corneal thickness checked to make sure that is normal.

If you have a career where your visual acuity has an impact on your ability to work- you may not want to take the risk of elective LASIK surgery because there is always the risk of a complication, even if your endothelium is normal.

Jon Dishler, M.D.

8)Patients with Fuchs dystrophy should probably not have the surgery, because the results tend to be slightly unpredictable. Also, people with Fuchs dystrophy who had Lasik can have some addtional problems with the Fuchs in the future. But Lasik does not affect the health or degeneration of the endothelium. So other minor irregularities with the endothelium are probably not a risk.

So there you have it. :eek:

I'm going to have to get used to the idea that doctors do not always agree with each other, or have equivalent knowledge.

Monday

3rd May 2006, 17:41

Do you know if the initial and renewal limits for astigmatism are going to change with the new regulations?
They are currently 2.0 dioptres (initial) and 5.0 dioptres (renewal).

Hi Alex,

Where did you find the figure of 5.0 for renewal of Class 1 ( astigmatism )?
I thought is was 2 for initial, 3 for renewal.

Thanks

M

AlexEvans

3rd May 2006, 21:59

Sorry, I stand corrected.

I know the initial limit for astigmatism is 2.00 dioptres because it is in the JAR Class 1 Visual Standards document.

I don't have the renewal limits in writing, I got them from Gatwick AMD and yes you are quite right, I believe they said it was 3.00 dioptres not 5.00.

I remember them saying I'm just beyond renewal at -3.5. Perhaps if I was within the renewal limits they would have bent the rules?

I'm taking the plunge with LASIK soon, come what may.

Monday

4th May 2006, 14:40

ok thanks, good luck with it.

Strobe lights

6th Jun 2006, 18:41

Very interesting thread..
Regards..

Expeditious

7th Jun 2006, 02:16

I'm 22 years old and fresh graduated from the Degree of Mechanical Engineering. I have been dreaming about becoming a pilot as my lifelong career since 13 years old. But the problem is i have a very high prescription of short sight which is:

L: -8.00 -1.5Astig
R: -5.25 -0.75Astig

Will i able to pass Class II and Class I? I can see 20/20 after corrected. But i know that visual acuity of at least 2/20 without optical aid. Do i still stand a chance to become a qualified pilot? I'm also thinking of LASIK if there will be a help to fullfil my ambition as i think that this is the only way i can do. I'm willing to try anything if there will be a help. Anyone is in the similar case with me or can give me some precious suggestion? What should i do for my first step? Many many thanks for helps.

Eddie_Crane

7th Jun 2006, 20:05

Ring the folks in Gatwick, they'll certainly know!!!

Expeditious

7th Jun 2006, 20:18

I'm 22 years old and fresh graduated from the Degree of Mechanical Engineering. I know that I have to pass Class II or Class I medical before getting PPL as initial stage. But the problem is i have a very high prescription of short sight which is:

L: -8.00 -1.5Astig
R: -5.25 -0.75Astig

Will i able to pass Class II and Class I? I can see 20/20 after corrected. But i know that visual acuity of at least 2/20 without optical aid. Do i still stand a chance to become a qualified pilot? I'm also thinking of LASIK if there will be a help to fullfil my ambition as i think that this is the only way i can do. I'm willing to try anything if there will be a help. Anyone is in the similar case with me or can give me some precious suggestion? What should i do for my first step? Where to enquire for this kind of case? Many many thanks for helps.

Blinkz

7th Jun 2006, 21:48

Not quite sure how you can 'forget' that you've done another medical, especially since you failed it. If I were you I would tell the country you've passed in asap and just hope for the best.

BigGrecian

7th Jun 2006, 22:22

I should think it probably depends on the condition which caused the initial denial.
I believe there is the basic JAA medical requirements - but these along with most things can be made stricter by the member state...

Let us know the outcome anyhow.

Hawk

8th Jun 2006, 01:15

Please post color blindness issues on this thread.
Thank you. H.

Sagey

8th Jun 2006, 07:23

BigGrecian that is very true. The UK CAA no longer make candidates take an EEG. However, it is a requirement in some JAA countries so they do state that "you may be required to have an EEG if you wish to fly their aircraft professionally". Medical requirements do change with advances in medicine/research, so if you have failed one before, that does not necessarily guarantee failure today or in the future.

Strobe lights

8th Jun 2006, 07:47

Well, let´s begin this 2nd part full of thrills with the never ending and JAA unresolved story of the silly and discriminatory colour vision restrictions!!
I posted a new thread about omitting information in the medical form before an initial 1st class exam but I will explain it here as it is colour vision related.
As most of us are in the same boat I´ll try to explain my problem as clearly as possible so if you guys can give me some good advice I will highly appreciate it (obviously don´t expect me to tell you names or countries, etc.. ok?).
Here is the situation.. In my country I failed the colour vision test (that means Ishihara and Beyne lantern and later on in a second attempt, an anomaloscope), but due to the reason that I have an FAA 1st class medical certificate with no restrictions (I know I know, it´s useless) and due to that I don´t trust my country and I have big hopes of becoming a pilot someday and due to that I know that I am colour safe for flying and I´ve heard of similar cases of acceptance of medical certificates between countries and acceptance of different lantern tests, etc.., I thought about giving it another try.
I had a denial in my country due to "colour unsafe" and I decided to give it another try in a different country in one of my many flights around europe. What happened? the country that I went and with wich I did a new initial medical examination used other Beine lantern and guess what? I passed, and they gave me a fresh and brand new unrestricted JAA 1st class medical certificate (can you beleive it?).
And the problem is.. Obviously I asked for acceptance in my country but guess what? no answer to my pleads, nothing, no response, until....
well, tired of waiting I went to talk to one of the responsibles, and here is what he said.. well Mr., you failed with us and that it is finished and closed with us and besides (after they received the files from the JAA country that officially sent them my medical files saying that I passed) you can not go making a puzzle with this, and then I said, well what about if I go to the country that gave me the medical certificate and get the ATP licence? and he said, well then we will tell the JAA and the country at which you passed, we will tell that you failed the lantern with us, and besides that, you didn´t mention in your medical form that you had a denial with us!!!!!
And at the end he said, we will study your case and we might raise it to JAA for a sub-committee, so they can decide.
Ok. besides omitting that info (which I will like to know if I can ammend), it is clearly that these people in my country will find and will do anything for not passing me or accepting anything from me (even though it´s all in JAR).
My questions..
-Will I loose my medical certificate?
-Can I ammend the information that I omitted?
-What happens when you tell that you have been denied a medical ceritificate in another JAA country? They will also denie it? They´ll treat you different?
-What happens if they tell JAA that I didn´t pass.
-What happens if they raise it to a JAA sub-committee?

Hope to hear from you all..
Thanks,

CPLtitov

8th Jun 2006, 11:55

hi
can anyone describe to me precisely what are the tests performed on your vision ?
how do they do to detect LAsek and lasik ?

thanks

Expeditious

8th Jun 2006, 15:44

I 'm thinking of LASIK surgery, do i still stand a chance to get Class I after LASIK? or is there any restriction after LASIK? :rolleyes:

Eddie_Crane

8th Jun 2006, 22:23

Reading of letters on a plate about 6m away from you...
reading of some non-sense (from a book), at varying distances...
"detecting" an object entering your "perpheral field of vision" (from the corner of your eye.. so to speak..)
ummm... what else...
placing an odd ruler-like thing on your nose with a sliding thingy on it, and sliding the thingy closer and closer to your eyes until you can't see it sharply anymore...
colour vision with Ishihara plates (flicking through random pages of a book with numbers/figures/non-sense, I was shown 10 or so, with one second to identify each, no mistakes allowed... you won't have a problem with it if your colour vision is ok)..
various other tests to assess your eyes' health (looking into your eyes with various "tools"...).
I think LASIK *might* be detected with the slit lamp, which they do have and do use during the eye tests (I hate it because I can see the blood vessels in my eyes for a few seconds while they do it :bored: ).
Can't really think of any other tests right now... but do hope this helps somehow..:\

niknak

9th Jun 2006, 22:22

Just to depress you even further, the UK CAA Medical branch have a completely computerised system, this allows them to spot trends in the results of individual medicals over the years.
But conceivably, the time may come when national CAAs decide to share information, particularly if, as in Europe the JAA medical is of the same standard in every country.
Furthermore, many airlines have their own medical standards which equate to or exceed the JAA standard, so you could fall down there.

If you attempt to cheat on the medical, you're cheating yourself.

CPLtitov

9th Jun 2006, 23:55

Oh that's super!

10th Jun 2006, 01:03

Surely you can't just 'forget' that you failed a medical before?

Perhaps, it's your integrity that should be questioned if you deliberately concealed it, or if you didn't pay attention to the form properly and ticked the wrong box, then it's your attention span (or attention to detail) that should be questioned?

Either way, I suggest write to the authority where you did your latest medical and inform them of your error.

captwannabe

10th Jun 2006, 16:16

I've a similar question - I used to have hayfever when I was younger, I'm still quite young but it doesn't affect me any more, but should I tell the CAA I have hayfever? Is there any chance that hayfever could come back to affect me in the future?

Mods - Wasn't sure whether I should have posted in this thread or in hayfever thread

kherranz

11th Jun 2006, 16:32

If u are from Spain, send me a mp....

benwizz

11th Jun 2006, 16:58

Hi, At my local opticians I have been given the ishihara test in the past and failed and I was wondering if there were any statistics on whether most people who fail the isihara plates fail the lantern test?

Also, do people ever buy copies of the test to get used to the plates, is it unwise in terms of serious implications of 'cheating' or is it accepted that people want to reassure themself beforehand by practising so you know what to expect?

benwizz

11th Jun 2006, 21:34

I'll look into the City Uni, sounds like a good idea :ok:

From what I've gleaned from the stacks of info here, am I right in thinking that in summary - if you go for just the £30 colour vision test and you fail, then you can't resit it even if you go for a full class 1? And that the only way would be to try in other JAA/JAR countries for the colour test, then if you pass that do the full medical, and then convert it back to a UK Class 1?

Eddie_Crane

11th Jun 2006, 22:33

No sorry, I don't remember details of all the tests.
They just look into your eyes with various machines/tools, and one that puffs some air onto your eyeball, don't know what it's called or what it is for.
I remember the slit lamp cos the lady who examined my eyes said "This is a slit lamp blabla...". All I mean by "blood vessels" is that I could see those "little red veiny" things in my eyes with the very bright light going into them, even though I was told to look away.
Hope it's of some help, good luck to you.

C.

Sagey

11th Jun 2006, 22:45

The puff of air into both eyes measures eye pressure (well I think it does). To be honest, the eye test is very thorough, lots of different tests, looking into the eyes etc. If you are very worried about it, it might be worth booking a trip to an optician, who will charge you about £25 but will be able to give you a good idea of your chances of success.

There is a form that you can download on the CAA website that tells you what they are looking for, or not. The optician will be able to say if you meet their requirements.

CPLtitov

12th Jun 2006, 00:58

how do they detect lasek since there is no flap involved like in lasik ?

benwizz

12th Jun 2006, 08:23

On their website they have a new colour vision test which is a movie with a coloured square moving around the screen which changes colour. The idea is that during the 90 second clip people who are colour defective cannot see the square in some places for a few seconds (although I could see it all fine despite failing the ishihara).
It's interesting to see that: The new version of the colour vision test was produced with support from the UK Civil Aviation Authority. The test is not yet in use for medical certification purposes. It should therefore be used only as a guide.
It can be found at the bottom of this link: http://www.city.ac.uk/avrc/colourtest.html

benwizz

12th Jun 2006, 08:26

Here is the link to the colour vision testing clinic at the City University in London: http://www.city.ac.uk/optometry/html/colour_vision.html
Approximately 1 in 12 males and 1 in 200 females have defective colour vision. I thought that colourvision was purely a male thing :confused:

AlexEvans

12th Jun 2006, 09:51

how do they detect lasek since there is no flap involved like in lasik ?

Yeah there is a flap with LASEK, it's just the method of creating the flap is different - there's no blade like with LASIK. I hear that the chances of corneal haze with LASEK is higher than with LASIK. Something to check out with an impartial medical professional...

I've never managed to get a definitive answer from either a surgeon or optician about whether or not LASIK is detectable with a slit lamp. Most say "probably".

From what I remember there is no topography performed at Aviation House.

Loose rivets

12th Jun 2006, 16:18

thank you
can you remember what tests do they do for the health of the eye ? slit lamp and what else ? eye scanning ? topography ?
what do you mean when you say that you see your blood vessels in slit lamp ?

bye thanks

One of the strange things about eyes, is that so much of the life support system is in front of the sensors! Here is one I took earlier as they say.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/walnaze/EyeRight.jpg

2close

13th Jun 2006, 19:32

Having read with interest these pages over the past couple of years I am now of the opinion that the only way that this issue will ever be resolved is by legal action in the UK and/or EU Courts, similar to that taken by Dr. Arthur Pape and others in Australia.

I am presently researching a legal challenge, in both technical and social terms.

One area I have investigated is that of discrimination and I was interested to learn that the Disability Rights Commission's new Code of Practice on the Disability Discrimination Act, whilst identifying total colour vision as a disability, specifies Red/Green colour vision deficiency as NOT being a disability. Having been involved with disability issues for several years I find this extremely peculiar, particularly as the same CoP identifies other very minor deficiencies as BEING disabilities.

I have very lightly challenged the DRC to explain their publication, as folllows:

"I write on behalf of myself and probably numerous other pilots with colour vision deficiencies (CVD). I find it extremely peculiar that the new DRC DDA CoP refers to total colour vision as being a disability within the meaning of s.1 DDA but specifically identifies Red/Green colour vision, i.e. that most commonly suffered by males, as NOT being a disability. There is a blatant lack of consistency in this approach. Furthermore, it is odd that the DRC has removed the question referring to the CAA and colour vision deficient pilots from its website. Taking both of these issues into context, it would appear to me that the DRC has been put under pressure into identifying Red/Green colour vision deficiency as not being a disability within the meaning of the DDA. This effectively means that the DRC is potentially as guilty of discrimination as the 'protectors' of CVD itself. You are obviously aware that it has been held by separate Courts in Australia that this approach is discriminatory and luckily for CVD pilots, whilst this is a Code of Practice it is only that and being very new has not yet been challenged in the Courts. I look forward to your comments."

Of course, the powers-that-be may be correct, maybe CVD pilots flying in EU airspace do present a clear and present threat to flight safety and therefore the safety of people both in the air and on the ground. If that is the case then why are the powers-that-be performing their duties in such a negligent manner as to permit CVD pilots from outside the EU who would not meet the colour visual standards of the JAA to operate passenger laden airliners in EU airspace on a daily basis? What would the public outcry be if a major accident was found to be due to the CVD of a pilot from outside the EU? But it's not going to happen because in both the USA and Australia, where far more relaxed CVD standards are applied, aircraft are NOT falling out of the skies, not by day and not by night.

It would help if the powers-that-be could simply keep people informed of any positive developments. Regrettably, they seem to shroud this issue in a cloak of secrecy, and one can only conclude that it is done in order to protect the 'protectors' of CVD discrimination.

Head over the parapet, awaiting incoming............

2close

Minimums!

14th Jun 2006, 15:19

Hi guys
I had my cathay cadet pilot 3rd stage interview and the medical, but in the medical i had 20/20 or 6/6 vision (better than 20/20 actually) with my contacts. My diopters are -4.75 on both eyes with a VERY slight astigmatism in the right eye. However this does not cause my right eyes vision to drop below 20/20. Because my unaided vision was so terrible (as i recall it was around 4/66 or 6/66 (i might be getting the 60's mixed up), the medical officer told me that I had to go and have my eyes checked by an outside eye-doctor who was airline approved, which i went and did.

Nothing was wrong with my eyes except for one thing. I did a test where the doc used this thing with a faceplate (with two holes for the eyes) connected to another marked plate, about a foot away from my face, with a small bar. On the plate that I was supposed to stare at (the marked plate) there was a horizontal scale with numbers running below its entire length (it looked like a ruler) and a vertical line also running from the center of the top of the plate, to the center of the bottom. Both the horizontal and vertical line had an arrow which pointed to a certain number on that scale, however, my right eye was blocked off by a small screen on this device and a I could only see the horizontal scale from my left eye.

The doc asked me what number the arrow was pointing to on the horizontal scale, but to me the harder i tried to look at the arrow the more it seemed to move. It started out at the "4" mark (to the right side of the plate) and moved slowly until it hit "8" which was just reaching the center of the plate from the right. The arrow on the vertical scale remained at "0" and did not move even when i looked at it.

At the end of the examination, the doc said everything was fine except that i have a slight muscle imbalance (this is what i remember him saying) or he might have said slight misalignment. He also mentioned something about a squint. He said that this was not too large at all, and that everyone has it, however he was unable to tell me if it was a factor in me getting a Hong kong Civil aviation dept. class 1 medical (similar to the UK CAA standards). If anyone could shed some light on this for me i would be very grateful, as i am sick with worry on whether i will fail the interviews because of this.

Also as a note, i couldnt read anything on the eye chart without correction, so the doc made me get up and walk up to the chart until i could read it. Is this bad although i am short sighted?

I have a FAA class 1 and they never did this test there, also when i did my medical with cathay they didnt test for this either. Any info would be helpful.

Minimums!

gijoe

16th Jun 2006, 10:07

Here is the link to the colour vision testing clinic at the City University in London: http://www.city.ac.uk/optometry/html/colour_vision.html
I thought that colourvision was purely a male thing :confused:

The online version of the new test is very different to the lab version. Please don't think that it is as easy as it appears on a PC screeen - it isn't....but I suppose that would depend on the type of CVD one has !!

2close - it will be interesting to see what the DRC come back with.

G

Flaming

17th Jun 2006, 13:21

I have just went for a full-body checkup. During one of my eye tests, one of the nurse used a thin long black instrument(about an arm's length) with words printed on a small rectangular box. Then she put the instrument onto my upper part of the nose where the center of both of my eyes are. She then asked me to read the words from a certain distance, read another time at a different length. She can slide the rectangular box up and down. Then she asked me to stop her when the words get blurred when she slide all the way to the front of my eyes. May I know what is the name of this device? and what it is test for?

ecnalubma

17th Jun 2006, 17:22

Here's an eye test for you, apparently there is a waterfall in this picture, can you spot it?
http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/IDX/IDX026/486560.jpg

b747heavy

18th Jun 2006, 04:40

did someone mention 'full body check-up"? :} :E

747dreamliner

18th Jun 2006, 09:04

Probably she wanted to test you eyes' focusing power. As far as I know they do it By using eye charts, lenses, and special instruments. In my own eye exam, she held a paper with a word written on it at about 5 inches from my eyes and she put a lense infront of my eyes to blur the vision then she asked me to tell her when it becomes visible then she would remove it, she repeated it until my eyes became tired and I couldnt see visibly anymore! Whe I asked her about it, she said its used to measure your eyes strenghth and fatigue! check this: http://www.allaboutvision.com/eye-exam/expect.htm

WOW! b747heavy, all I can spot in that photo is a gorgeous girl! I wish all eye test were like that! Even a blind can see her! :8

degers

19th Jun 2006, 10:42

Hi there
I wanted to learn to fly last year, but I didn't bother starting once I'd found out that I couldn't get a class two medical because I am +7.5 and +8.5

I also have some other problems with my eyesight but the CAA said that the refractive errors were the only major problem.
I live in the channel islands so If i wanted to fly, I have to get the JAA PPL and I cant do an NPPL over here!

I have heard this talk about relaxation of vision requirements, do any of you know if I will be able to get a class two in the forseeable future?

And also do you know how long this will be?????

Many thanks,
Degers
(Andrew Degnen)

Andy Bodman

19th Jun 2006, 22:10

Can anyone help?

I went to my CAA class 1 medical the other day and was told that due to my poor visual acuity, I would NEVER get a Class 1 certificate. :* This is due to the fact that my left eye is perfect and my right eye is pretty poor, only getting to 6/24 line on the distance vision chart. I needed to get too 6/9 at least, which is 3 lines below my best attempt. The medical officer told me that there is no way it can ever be corrected because it has something to do with the optic nerve not getting signals to the brain (hope this is not too boring!). I refuse to believe that I will never fly commercial because of this. There MUST be something that can be done.

Does anyone know a procedure that can be done or whether the CAA is going to relax its rules a little? I am desperate for information so that I can start my career. I have tried to buy a bionic eye on Ebay, but no luck!!

bafanguy

19th Jun 2006, 23:32

Andy,

That's certainly discouraging news.

I offer two words: Second...Opinion

I offer two more words: Third...Opinion

If you're determined to fly, I'd beat this horse until it begged for the glue factory.

Best of luck. Come back and let everyone know how it went.

KRDAVIS

20th Jun 2006, 15:15

I know you are all pretty much fed up of reading questions regarding Colour Blindness, but i really don't know where i stand!!!!!

I'm sure i'm buggered good and proper. :ugh:

I'll be very brief...........

I have a class 2 Medical up for renual in July this year.

I'm Colour Blind Red/Green, and i got about 6/12 test incorrect on the book test!

I can only Fly VFR, by day and NO IMC :sad: :sad: :sad:

What options do i have for a flying carrer (of any kind!!!!!!!!!!!)

I'm pulling my hair out all i want to do is make a living from flying, but i think i'm totally out of options.

I got turned away at cranwell for failing the medical because of my eyes. :*

Help!

Are all the Following now out of the question for me........

ATPL
CPL
Instructor Rating
etc...

Any advice would much Appreciated:ok:

Human Factor

20th Jun 2006, 15:56

It's possible to do a "lantern" test instead of the Ishihara plates if you're marginal, although I'm not sure if an AME can do that. It's a long time since I went through that so the information may be a little out of date. It's probably worth ringing the CAA medical people at LGW.

unfazed

21st Jun 2006, 08:21

KRDAVIS

Take it from you will be as welcome to an airline as a "guide dog in a guide dogs home with Rabies"

I have a restricted JAR license due DCV and an FI rating but it has been an uphill battle and I have put the same resources into this as others but unfortunately the way things stand I cannot get a decent paying job outside of instruction (decent and paying are therefore mutually exclusive in that context).

My advice to you for what it's worth

Keep flying fun and don't ever stop flying
Go FAA route if you wan't a career but be aware of visa requirements
Check out RAF Instructor opportunities (air cadet instructors) as no license is required and you can gain excellent experience and have fun
Hope for changes with EASA but don't hold your breadth (I did that with JAR which was a sham).

Good Luck !:)

KRDAVIS

21st Jun 2006, 09:32

Thanks unfazed :)

I dont ever plan to stop flying, it's something i've always dreamed of doing, so that will never stop.
would you be able to explain to me a little more on the FAA route?!?
what's the process, and hows best to go about it? sorry but you seem to be the only one who has the answers i'm looking for! :ok: :ok:
so if you get me pointed in the right direction it would be most appreciated.

I never really concidered the RAF Cadet Route even though i got my Gliding Licence that way when i was younger. Its definately worth concidering if the FAA route Fails.

Thanks agin for you Help:D

Keith

unfazed

21st Jun 2006, 09:44

The US system is a bit more enlightened and does not impose as many limitations, as long as you can pass a tower light signal test you will be issued a waiver and can gain any level of license.

You will require a work visa or immigrant visa to actually use the license in the US (Outside of the US you may find other restrictions on using the license for paid work).

Not sure what your circumstances are but it is a big sacrifice to leave your homeland and friends just to get around archaic rules.

Might be smarter to keep flying and see what EAsa brings but then only you can decide. If you are young and time is plentiful and committments minimal then you could go to join a US trianing organisation on a J1 visa which will let you work as a flight instructor for 12 months after you qualify.

You will need to resesearch your options

Alternatively - accept the limitations and get a well paid job so that you can buy your own aircraft or setup your own aviation business.

:)

unfazed

21st Jun 2006, 09:46

advertising Beware of the Sharks out there !:)

Piper2006

24th Jun 2006, 10:14

Hi,
I'm a CPL holder in Oz. About 2 weeks ago I saw an optician about slightly blurry vision and was told that i need glasses/contacts for distance vision. My prescription was -0.50 Right eye, -0.75 Left eye. And when i had the contacts in my corrected vision was fine.

Now just today i found out that the trial contacts i've been wearing for the last 2 weeks are the wrong prescription. They are slightly stronger, -0.75 Right eye and -1.00 left eye. My question is, does wearing the slightly stronger prescription make my eyesight worse than it was 2 weeks ago? And should i stick to these contacts, or get a set made up to the original prescription?

Obviously I'm a little stressed about this. I've already told CASA my ORIGINAL prescription, and they say its not problem. I just hope that my eyes havent gotten any worse because of a cock up by the optician. Any advice or insight would be greatly appreciated.

Also, and pilots living in melbourne who wear glasses, if you have any recommendations of a good opticians, please send them to me. The people i've been to dont seem to know their stuff! :mad:

Feel free to PM me :)

niknak

24th Jun 2006, 19:48

I think seeing a different, if possible, personally recommended optitician is the right way to go about it.
Having a stronger prescription than necessary can't be good in the long term, but it's got to be better than goofing up 'cos you can't see properly.

I have very poor uncorrected vision but a good optician sorted me out, don't think that you've anything to worry about.

jimtall

26th Jun 2006, 07:33

Fourteen years ago I had a dream. That dream was to make a career out of flying. I had never flown an aircraft before and yet I wanted to be a pilot more than anything else in this world. Then I was living in the Seychelles islands, my country of birth.

My dream soon came crashing down when I failed the Ishihara test. I did not know what to do. Back then I was told "you will never become a pilot" I gave up the dream and took a career in Television production which I eventually learnt to enjoy but it was not exactly what I wanted. Back then I was not told that I could get a license with daytime restrictions. The main reason being that the only body running aircraft operations were Air Seychelles and as an airline they would never accept anyone with CVD. Even if I did get a license with restrictions there would be no planes to fly because out there there is no planes to rent.

I am now living in the UK and have done and failed the Lantern test in Gatwick and the desire to become a pilot keeps getting stronger and stronger.

I was under the impression that if one did fail the lantern test in Gatwick then one would be dark adapted and the test would be carried out in the dark. This was not the case. I failed in normal conditions and no test was done in the dark at all. I must specify that the conditions in that room was not proper especially with that Stupid "tube light" straingt in one's field of vision.

My advise to anyone with the same condition is to do the lantern test elswhere. Gatwick now wants me to quote a reference number if I want to try again. I have now become a number whereby I can be identified as another CVD candidate.

I have read that in the Netherlands is a good place to do the lantern test.
If anyone knows of the address in the Netherland please post it here. I would love to take the test again. After all you only have to pass it once!!

Keep the dream alive and keep fighting for one day CVD will be history. It will die a horrible death by the upcoming technological developments.!!

Regards

Jim

whitelabel

28th Jun 2006, 08:24

Addresses of all the dutch AMC's:cool:

CENTER 1
AEROMEDISCH INSTITUUT
Postbus 7700 (SPL/AM)
1117 ZL Luchthaven Schiphol
Tel: (020) 649 34 01
Fax: (020) 649 37 38

CENTER 2
AVIATION MEDICAL CENTER
Le Carré
Beechavenue 126-128 1 ste verdieping
1119 PR Schiphol- Rijk
0800 - 4212121

CENTER 3
Aeromedical Expert Centre
Diamantlaan 97
2132 WV Hoofddorp
Tel. 023-5572555
Fax.023-5627808

I prefer the last one. They are very helpfull.

Good luck

Lord Flashart

28th Jun 2006, 09:46

Hi,

I am currently looking into a career as a pilot (want to do ATPL) but have CVD, although my colour problems are only slight (R/G) and I'm pretty sure I'll pass a lantern I have problems with ishihara plates, so have a couple of questions:

1. If I do ishihara at Gatwick, fail it then do the lantern and pass that will I get a full unrestricted class 1 medical?

2. Will I have to re-test my colour vision in future if I fail the ishihara then pass the lantern? And am I right in saying that people who pass the ishihara first time never have to re-test?

3. What advantage is there in taking my medical somewhere else in Europe, I see this mentioned a lot and am confused as to the differences.

4. If I try for class 1 at Gatwick, fail or get a restricted medical, then re-take it elsewhere and get an unrestricted C1 will the fact that I failed first time round be recorded and count against me in any way? ie. should I just go straight to some other European country to take my C1 bypassing CAA/GW entirely.

5. If I do determine that I'm better of getting my cert abroad, are airlines likely to prefer candidates with UK CAA C1s over me?

6. Does anyone know if the CAA use the 24 or 38 plate ishihara, and whether the plates are tested in order or randomly.

Sorry for so many questions, and sorry if some of them are already answered in the CVD threads, I have trawled through them at length but am utterly confused and am hoping some of you who have already navigated this minefield will be able to help.

Thanks.

Flashart

benwizz

28th Jun 2006, 21:48

Hi there

From what I have learnt from these pages, I think you will need a UK class one anyway, so I think you are best off trying at Gatwick first, and then if you fail that then try in another country, because you will have to convert it back to a UK one anyway, so from what I understand you have nothing to lose by going to Gatwick first. I stand to be corrected, but I don't think you should have too much trouble converting from say a French or German class one to a UK one.

What's more, you could go to City University in London for a thorough colour vision test using lanterns that I think are used at Gatwick, because it may be helpfull to get accustomed to the procedures to prepare for the real thing, experiencing the different shades of light.

Good luck :ok:

sheepgoat64

29th Jun 2006, 19:16

Hi,
I have been interested in becoming a pilot in the RN for a very long time. Yesterday I went to the opticians and was horrified when I saw some number on my feedback sheet. To be honest I am not sure what it means. This is what it said: Right Sph : +0.25 Left Sph: +0.25
(the rest of the things Cyl Axis Prism Base were all 0.
I don't wear/need glasses or anything like that. I think it means i am slightly short sighted, does this mean I cannot become an RN pilot? Does anybody know the cut-off boundaries. Does anybody know the cut-off boundaries for Observer also? Many Thanks.:confused:

unfazed

30th Jun 2006, 12:28

gijoe

2nd Jul 2006, 16:58

trying at Gatwick first, and then if you fail that then try in another country
I suspect that if you fail the tests at Gatwick then even if you pass in another state you will have a difficult job convincing CAA that they are valid enough to overturn the CAA results.
Worth bearing in mind when you plan your test "strategy"
Much easier to take test abroad and then approach Gatwick if positive and ask for recognition of passed medical.
My experience of this was that the CAA docs positively enouraged me to go abroad and do the tests there!
One senior, very senior , doc said that he did not believe in CVD restrictions and could see no point for them in today's world...he did add 'don't quote me' but it shows what a farce it is!
:=

Ollie098

4th Jul 2006, 17:17

My experience of this was that the CAA docs positively enouraged me to go abroad and do the tests there!
One senior, very senior , doc said that he did not believe in CVD restrictions and could see no point for them in today's world...he did add 'don't quote me' but it shows what a farce it is!
:=

in responce to your post i write:

Hello my name is Oliver Tomsett, I am currently under going training for my private pilots license, with the further intention of becoming an airline pilot. The other week I attended my class 2 medical which I passed with flying colours until I was tested for my colour vision, (using the ishihara plates) I failed miserberly, the examiner said I would never make it as an airline pilot now the stupid thing is that when sat in a cockpit i can read off all the colours to my instructor and can tell him the colour of the landing lights on the runway. This remark moved me, I am not about to let my dream die, so I set about researching the topic, were I found that the civil aviation authority was willing to test such candidates using the beyne lantern and the Holmes Wright lantern examinations. So I booked an appointment at Gatwick to have one. When I arrived I was extremely nervous; so apparent I was shaking, but I took the beyne lantern and only failed by, what the examiner said was marginal. Then I was tested on the Holmes Wright lantern I failed on the first set of lights, Any way I have been deemed by the CAA as colour unsafe. after reading your post about CAA doctors i wonder if you could supply infomation on the mentioned, as the only other option given to me by the CAA is a tribuneral.

gijoe

4th Jul 2006, 18:26

Oliver,

Go to any of the fully-fledged JAA countries - make sure they are fully fledged - and take a Class 1 medical there. Come back to the UK and request that the CAA grant you a JAA medical on the basis of the Class 1 obtained in another JAA state.

G

Ollie098

5th Jul 2006, 09:49

but then what would happen if i failed in another counry? the caa said strictly that i was not to take another lantern examination, and stated that i have to prove that i am not colour blind by another form eg, a specialist argueing my case if i am ok,

Oliver

unfazed

5th Jul 2006, 14:07

Lord Flashart

6th Jul 2006, 00:20

Opinion then seems to be divided, so I am now unsure whether to go to the CAA first or to some other JAA country.

Has anyone actually failed at Gatwick, then subsequently passed in another JAA country and been issued a full class 1 CAA medical as a result?

If so, were there any problems in obtaining the CAA class 1 when presenting the JAA medical from another country?

I was under the impression that the CAA was bound by law to accept a JAA medical and exchange it for a CAA one - is this or is it not true?

Flash

Ollie098

6th Jul 2006, 08:42

OLLIE098

The CAA re intransigent Ba$s%a$£S when it comes to this subject so save your time and money, you will get more success from banging your head against a brick wall.

The only thing that they would take seriously is a legal challenge but that would take money, lots of it.

e.g. If I am unsafe for night flying how come you have restricted me to no passenger transport at all (even by day ?), why UK aircraft only, why UK airspace only ?

Answer - Because we are a bunch of arrogant, ignorant and very :mad: vindictive Tossers !

Sorry if this offends anyone but hey it's the truth !

i agree with what your saying it seems if they are campaining against aviation (campaign against aviation) but i was told i cannot fy outside uk airspace but it was not written on my medical all that was was flights by day only so surely they cannot stop me from flying outside it because theirs no such restrictions imposed on my medical, any i may go to a specalist and get their oppion and all being well get a tribunal, sounds silly but their was a guy at the club who was in the same postion, and he took the tribunal option and won although this was in nz

thanks agen

oliver

explain how we are arogent or even vindictive, all we want to do is fly, our well beings our childhood dreams,

unfazed

6th Jul 2006, 12:41

Answer - Because we are a bunch of arrogant, ignorant and very vindictive Tossers !

Oh Dear ! look what happens when you put the wrong word in a sentence

Should read THEY not WE

Hope that makes more sense !!!!!:\

Lord Flashart

6th Jul 2006, 23:09

Bump for this - going for my medical soon and I need to know - if I go to Gatwick and fail on CVD will I be able to subsequently pass in another JAA country then get it converted to a CAA medical despite my previous CAA medical failure? Advice only from those who have actually done this or personally know someone who has please.

thanks.

Flash

Opinion then seems to be divided, so I am now unsure whether to go to the CAA first or to some other JAA country.

Has anyone actually failed at Gatwick, then subsequently passed in another JAA country and been issued a full class 1 CAA medical as a result?

If so, were there any problems in obtaining the CAA class 1 when presenting the JAA medical from another country?

I was under the impression that the CAA was bound by law to accept a JAA medical and exchange it for a CAA one - is this or is it not true?

Flash

Lord Flashart

7th Jul 2006, 01:26

Can anyone tell me if my eyesight is likely to result in me being required to wear glasses to fly, my prescription is:

L:
-0.50 sph
-0.25 cyl
90 axis

R:
-0.75 sph
-0.25 cyl
65 axis

I ask only because I actually don't like wearing glasses, and only do so when absolutely necessary. For example, I consider my eyes perfectly good for driving without glasses so rarely wear them. If I'm going to have to wear corrective lenses to fly I might look into contacts - are these acceptable in the same way as glasses for a medical?

Thanks.

Flash

gijoe

8th Jul 2006, 13:47

Bump for this - going for my medical soon and I need to know - if I go to Gatwick and fail on CVD will I be able to subsequently pass in another JAA country then get it converted to a CAA medical despite my previous CAA medical failure? Advice only from those who have actually done this or personally know someone who has please.
thanks.
Flash
Yes - as posted above if you fail at the CAA they will advise you to do this. The reason is because there is no set protocol for all of the JAA countries to follow.
Taking an objective view about this, the CAA is being quite helpful here and calling them To**ers is not going to help anyone.
If you can prove that you passed all of the requirements for a Class 1 Medical in another fully fledged, note, JAA country then the CAA will grant you a Class 1 to train in the UK.
An interesting link methinks:
http://drc-gb.org/library/ask_drc/qualification_trade_organisati/can_the_caa_refuse_me_a_pilot.aspx

Wookiee

8th Jul 2006, 20:35

Here is the link to the colour vision testing clinic at the City University in London: http://www.city.ac.uk/optometry/html/colour_vision.html
I thought that colourvision was purely a male thing :confused:

Its not a purely male thing but much less common in females. Basically the 'anormaly' is carried on the X chromosome. Women have two of those (males just one) so the 'anormaly' has to appear on both for the problem to show up and therefore less likely to occur.

shgsaint

8th Jul 2006, 22:19

Its not a purely male thing but much less common in females. Basically the 'anormaly' is carried on the X chromosome. Women have two of those (males just one) so the 'anormaly' has to appear on both for the problem to show up and therefore less likely to occur.

Now if there was ever a reason to want to be a Woman! :oh:

Lord Flashart

9th Jul 2006, 01:32

GIJoe,

Thanks for that. I just wondered if, since the advice was unofficial, there may be problems/objections down the line. I have been "lanterned" before as a child and tested as normal, although I never could do the ishihara plates. I suspect I'll go through OK at gatwick, but it's nice to know if I don't there are other options.

thanks.

Flash

Yes - as posted above if you fail at the CAA they will advise you to do this. The reason is because there is no set protocol for all of the JAA countries to follow.
Taking an objective view about this, the CAA is being quite helpful here and calling them To**ers is not going to help anyone.
If you can prove that you passed all of the requirements for a Class 1 Medical in another fully fledged, note, JAA country then the CAA will grant you a Class 1 to train in the UK.
An interesting link methinks:
http://drc-gb.org/library/ask_drc/qualification_trade_organisati/can_the_caa_refuse_me_a_pilot.aspx

unfazed

9th Jul 2006, 12:28

GIJOE

Yes - as posted above if you fail at the CAA they will advise you to do this. The reason is because there is no set protocol for all of the JAA countries to follow.
Taking an objective view about this, the CAA is being quite helpful here and calling them To**ers is not going to help anyone.

And this is factual then is it GIJOE ? You have done this i.e. failed at Gatwick and then on their advice gone elsewhere to pass the same or a similar test - got a pass and then converted back to CAA - All without any problems at all ??? If you have then I will be very impressed !

Unfortunately I will still call them a bunch of To££$rs because if true it is an absolute nonsense that they are advising their own pilots to go abroad because to get fair treatment !:mad:

Wookiee

9th Jul 2006, 16:29

I've been through the Ishihara test a few times but having a go at

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/teares/gktvc/vc/lt/colourblindness/cblind.htm#Background

was interesting, since the answers and their 'meanings' are given. I found that on some plates I got the red/green answer, on others I got the 'normal' answer, some I got nothing and on a few I saw part of the normal answer. I guess this means the test is not sensitive enough...as you guys have basically been saying.

Also I notice that at college, when they use green pen on the white board, I struggle to see whats going on...until I put my glasses on ( a really mild prescription..basically the only time I wear them). I have no problem once I have my glasses on.

The point I finally getting to is that when I did fail a lantern test (I was border line) I did not wear glasses at all. I had a prescription from a previous eye test but didn't need glass..didn't get a set.

May be for someone who is borderline...try glasses first! A slightly sharper image might be all you really need.

gijoe

10th Jul 2006, 12:22

GIJOE
Yes - as posted above if you fail at the CAA they will advise you to do this. The reason is because there is no set protocol for all of the JAA countries to follow.
Taking an objective view about this, the CAA is being quite helpful here and calling them To**ers is not going to help anyone.

And this is factual then is it GIJOE ? You have done this i.e. failed at Gatwick and then on their advice gone elsewhere to pass the same or a similar test - got a pass and then converted back to CAA - All without any problems at all ??? If you have then I will be very impressed !
Unfortunately I will still call them a bunch of To££$rs because if true it is an absolute nonsense that they are advising their own pilots to go abroad because to get fair treatment !:mad:

Very much so and I'm not the only one.

unfazed

10th Jul 2006, 13:13

GIJOE

OK then I am as amazed as you were in your previous post. I will now try to determine what alternative tests there are with a view to getting a pass elsewhere and asking CAA to accept them.

Thanks for the update on this situation !

unfazed

10th Jul 2006, 20:35

GIJOE

What country did you go to ? what alternative test did you pass ?

I have spoken with medical doctor in Holland who advises that tests are the same as CAA so I am at a loss as to what test to try and in what country.

Lord Flashart

10th Jul 2006, 21:55

Unfazed,

I can't answer your main question (how are the tests different) although I do know that different JAA countries do have different tests, hopefully someone else who's been though it all will reply with the specifics. What I will say is it may even be worth your while re-trying the same tests - for example, even with the ishihara plates my results differ from one day to another, presumably due to different lighting conditions / monitors etc. One thing to note on the ishihara test is that for it to be fair the lighting conditions must be very specific to give you the best chance of passing, but in the end the ishihara is only a screening test and the real test is the 2nd stage (lantern) of which there are several different types.

GIJOE

What country did you go to ? what alternative test did you pass ?

I have spoken with medical doctor in Holland who advises that tests are the same as CAA so I am at a loss as to what test to try and in what country.

world

11th Jul 2006, 20:51

Hi everybody,

on landings.com, i found out that FAA 1st and 2nd medical req. are
minus or plus 5 Diopters. So, what are the actual FAA uncorrected, or diopter req. for 1st, and 2nd med. class?
P.S What about astigmatism?

Blinkz

12th Jul 2006, 17:43

unfazed,
What has been said is all true. I'm pretty sure I set the precident for this. I went to the CAA a couple of years ago and failed the lantern tests, altho only slightly. I said that the white on the Beyne lantern was yellow, since it is a baige colour. I thought this was pretty unfair and so looked at different ways to continue my fight. I heard about the German AMC here on pprune and the fact that they have a slightly different protocol for their beyne lantern tests. They show you each colour first and tell you what it is, they then show you all the colours randomly and you have to say what they are. I passed this test. I then returned to the UK who then turned around and said that they would not accept the lantern test as it was done in a different protocol to their own. After a number of letters to the chief medical officer the CAA agreed that they would accept a full German Class 1 medical and convert that to a UK medical as they normally do. I then returned to Germany, passed the full class 1 medical and the CAA converted it just like they said they would. As has been said it looks like the CAA are now actually advising people who fail the lantern tests to do this. This doesn't surprise me as I've heard a number of the doctors at the CAA think that colourvision testing is pointless, so they do their best to help you. Make sure you keep trying, I now have a full CAA class 1 medical and am going to be taking my CPL test soon! Good luck to you all.

TruTh747

13th Jul 2006, 15:49

Hi guys,

I went for a class 1 medical renewal yesterday and everything is ok except my eyes. From my last medical my vison has dropped slightly and the AME recommended i get a eye exam. I got one today and it confirms i need glasses. I still can't believe it! but ok. :ooh:

My AME will review the results next wednesday (i'll be so nervous for the best part of a week) but the optician stated that i will be fine. I am a little nervous and in need of some reassurance that everything will be ok. My n14 and n5 is perfect. My vital stats are:

Uncorrected ,Corrected

right 6/12, 6/5
left 6/12, 6/5
Binocular 6/11, 6/4

unifocal (s/v distance recommended)

Sphere, Cylinder, Axis, Near (add)
right -0.25, -0.75, 90, n/a
left -0.25, -0.50, 25, n/a

Please reassure me everything is ok :uhoh:

Kind Regards

+Truth747 (nervous as hell)

gijoe

13th Jul 2006, 20:01

GIJOE
What country did you go to ? what alternative test did you pass ?
I have spoken with medical doctor in Holland who advises that tests are the same as CAA so I am at a loss as to what test to try and in what country.

Told you ! :ok: Now go do it.

Jet_A_Knight

13th Jul 2006, 20:06

Blinkz - How many different coloured lights do they show??

Lord Flashart

14th Jul 2006, 09:52

Pretty sure you'll be fine - your prescription is very mild - you are allowed up to 5 dioptres of refractive correction on each eye (you have a quarter of a dioptre required in each) and something like 3 dioptres of astigmatism (you have half a dioptre in one eye, three-quarters in the other). As long as glasses/contacts can correct your vision (which seems almost certain to me with such a slight prescription, but I am not an optician) I see no problem.

Sorry to have to hedge this with disclaimers about not being an optician, I'm as certain as I could be that you're OK (I've been looking into this recently too as I have a similar prescription along with some colour vision deficiency) but wouldn't want to mislead you either.

Flash

Hi guys,

I went fot a class 1 medical renewal yesterday and everything is ok except my eyes. From my last medical my vison has dropped slightly and the AME recommended i get a eye exam. I got one today and it confirms i need glasses. I still can't believe it! but ok. :ooh:

My AME will review the results next wednesday (i'll be so nervous for the best part of a week) but the optician stated that i will be fine. I am a little nervous and in need of some reassurance that everything will be ok. My n14 and n5 is perfect. My vital stats are:

Uncorrected ,Corrected

right 6/12, 6/5
left 6/12, 6/5
Binocular 6/11, 6/4

unifocal (s/v distance recommended)

Sphere, Cylinder, Axis, Near (add)
right -0.25, -0.75, 90, n/a
left -0.25, -0.50, 25, n/a

Please reassure me everything is ok :uhoh:

Kind Regards

+Truth747 (nervous as hell)

unfazed

17th Jul 2006, 16:37

Blinkz - I need to know where you did your test in Germany ?

Have just been to City University to sit a range of tests which tell me that I have an issue with white and green, the advice was to try different tests until I pass one

I will schedule my next medical for Germany or wherever there is a different (and hopefully easier) colour vision test acceptable to JAA.

Just for info - City Uni are soon to conduct trials of a RED / WHITE Papi type test for the CAA so it looks like the wheels of change are slowly turning at long last.

whitelabel

18th Jul 2006, 08:15

east_sider

18th Jul 2006, 14:18

Hi all, very interesting thread thanks to all that have contributed. I've known I have some form of Red/Green since a young age, and always assumed it ruled me out of any commercial flying. Thanks to info here and alot of research I've done recently it seems there might be a chance..... I'm going for a full test at City Uni next week, seemed a sensible first step - presume that's what you did Unfazed? Do they give you the full range of tests, help you understand which you can pass, what Gatwick use etc? I'm hoping so!

cheers
Ian

unfazed

18th Jul 2006, 18:07

Whitelabel - Thanks for the address !

Do they give you the full range of tests, help you understand which you can pass, what Gatwick use etc? I'm hoping so!

Yes they do give you a range of tests (not all though), but certainly the main ones used at Gatwick. They do tell you the colours before you test which is fairer and I found that they allow you plenty of time to let your eyes acclimatise to the dark.

They provide you with a written report on your specific condition. All very useful if a little bit expensive.

They also advised that there are different tests in different JAR countries and the protocol for test standards differs as well.

benwizz

18th Jul 2006, 19:27

How much did the City Uni consultation cost?

east_sider

19th Jul 2006, 14:25

City Uni tests are GBP 135 I think - will post full details after I go next week.

cheers

unfazed

19th Jul 2006, 16:05

£125 for the City Uni tests

TruTh747

20th Jul 2006, 07:08

My AME has issued me my class 1 medical today! My eyes were ok!

Yipeeeeee....:ok:

{although for flying you have to a spare pair of glasses handy which means i have to go back down to vision express and spend another 100 pounds :uhoh: )

Blinkz

20th Jul 2006, 13:38

DLR - Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt
Institut für Luft- und Raumfahrtmedizin
Flugmedizinisches Zentrum
Gebäude 24
Linder Höhe
D-51147 Köln
Here is the address of the AMC in Germany (Köln)
Iam planning to go there 2.
good luck

This is the same AMC that I went to do my colourvision test and then my class 1 medical. They were extremely helpful and I passed the beyene lantern test there!

steelegbr

20th Jul 2006, 20:40

I sat my CAA class 1 medical yesterday. Everything was well witihin limits appart from colour blindness. After sitting both types of lantern test they have declaired me colour unsafe.

Now, I know I can read light signals on an airfield no problems.

It has been mentioned that you can go to other JAA countries to sit the medical (and different colour blindness tests). Any recommendations?

Also the FAA route has been mentioned. I would not mind going to the US to train and fly but would I be able to fly internationally with a US medical?

Any help to get through this part of the medical is very much appreciated.

Scenic Route

21st Jul 2006, 12:39

Has anyone from Prrune ever had surgery to correct an eye muscle imbalance?

SR

unfazed

25th Jul 2006, 09:48

SteeleGBR

May I formally offer my "condolences" and welcome you to the ever growing band of illustrious day time only Euroland flyers !

Bad luck but why not read this thread carefully as all of the information has already been posted

Maybe we should all chip in a TENNER and pay for a legal test case against the CAA. 10% of the male pilot population in UK might pay for a few hours

whitelabel

25th Jul 2006, 10:13

Count me in unfazed. We need to give them a wake up call!!!
They say due to glass cockpit etc. colour discrimination is very important but we all know (the colour unsafe people) this is not entirely true.

If you believe that colourvision is important I think colour discrimination is more important for VFR pilots then it is for IFR pilots. We fly perfect under VFR conditions so what will be the problem when we will fly under IFR conditions???

It is rather strange!

Let hope the JAA will do something (positive) for us.

2close

26th Jul 2006, 13:11

I am currently working on preparing a technical / legal argument against exclusion of CVD pilots from professional flying and here is something very interesting from the HSE.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/ms7.pdf

You will note on page 3, paragraph 15, that it clearly states that colour vision naturally deteriorates with age and potentially affects ability to differentiate colours.

Taking this into consideration, surely, if flight safety is dependent on a pilot's ability to correctly discriminate between colours, the authorities have a legal and moral duty to test colour vision not only at initial medical but also at certain intervals.

This is obviously something that has not been recently discovered so one asks the question why it isn't done. After all, flight safety does not cease to be an issue just because the flight crew is older.

However, introducing such testing under current testing standards may result in a significant number of professional flight crew suddenly being told they can't fly any more. I could see BALPA going right up the wall against the suggestion of introducing any further periodical medical testing that could potentially result in the exclusion of its members from the flight deck. Then again, maybe BALPA would then join in the argument against the exclusion of CVD persons.

The other issue alluded to above is that of discrimination. The Disability Rights Commission states on its website (and I paraphrase) that the CAA cannot refuse to issue a Class One Medical to a prospective pilot unless it could prove that it affected competence to operate an aircraft safely. The present testing methods (and these lantern machines were built at least 30 years ago) do not, in any way, shape or form, test an individual's competence to fly and therefore cannot be seen to be an objective measuring stick for such competence. In that respect I think the authorities may be on a sticky wicket should someone wish to take them on down this route.

But as for £ 10 each, probably add a couple of 00's.

HTH

2close

steelegbr

26th Jul 2006, 15:15

unfazed:

Yeah, I did a bit more research and my questions are answered.

The other issue alluded to above is that of discrimination. The Disability Rights Commission states on its website (and I paraphrase) that the CAA cannot refuse to issue a Class One Medical to a prospective pilot unless it could prove that it affected competence to operate an aircraft safely. The present testing methods (and these lantern machines were built at least 30 years ago) do not, in any way, shape or form, test an individual's competence to fly and therefore cannot be seen to be an objective measuring stick for such competence. In that respect I think the authorities may be on a sticky wicket should someone wish to take them on down this route.

Good point but they could pull the arguement about mis-understanding signals.

Maybe a test on an airfield (the CAA have one on their doorstep...) or a test flight would be more of a guide as to if you would be safe or unsafe to fly. That way you are in operational conditions. And if you can't operate in operational conditions...

2close

27th Jul 2006, 14:15

The PAPI simulator is supposed to be a cutting edge bit of kit which has been developed by City University and by all accounts it has been accepted by the UK CAA and the FAA. They're now waiting for City Uni to release it for actual use.

Regarding light signals, this has been one area that I have looked at in my study and I feel it to be of very little, if any, consequence whatsoever to modern aviation. I will precis my findings below:

Firstly, the vast majority of aricraft these days have Comms equipment and thankfully the failure rate is very low (although I have personally experienced radio faiure twice).

An aircraft may not enter an ATZ without permission from ATC. The ATZ, at a minimum is 2 nm in diameter. I have used these lights in flight in daylight and they are (a) very small, (b) not that bright and (c) extremely difficult to discern from even 1 nm away, regardless of colour, even when you know where to look for them, therefore, seeing them from 2 - 2.5 nm away (i.e. outside the ATZ) in daylight is extremely difficult, if not impossible. At night, applying the same rules regarding entering the ATZ, when you would think that the light would be easier to see, in fact it gets lost from 2 - 2.5 nm away amongst (a) light pollution, (b) airport lights and (c) lights from other surrounding buildings and streets.

If an aerodrome does not have ATC and the issue of ATZ entry, circuit joining and landing is down to pilot discretion, of what consequence are light signals? None, apart form indicating to the aircraft that it may not land, for some reason. There are far easier and more identifiable ways of achieving this than firing coloured lights, e.g. placing a big 'X' or even a vehicle on the runway. Before anyone questions what would happen if the pilot didn't see the vehicle (a) what is the pilot doing operating an aircraft in the first place if he can't see a vehicle on the runway and (b) in that case, what guarantees are there that the pilot will see coloured light signals?

Regarding operation of signal guns in the cockpit, if operation of a mobile phone is considered a road safety hazard how can operation of a cumbersome signal gun not be considered a flight safety hazard? Also, it is not a legal requirement to carry coloured signal guns in the cockpit and I personally have never heard of anyone carrying such an instrument. Lastly, if a signal gun of sufficient luminance (to enable it to be seen from the ground) was carried and operated inside the cockpit, the light reflection off the inside of the cockpit perspex would in all probability cause serious impairment to the pilot's adapted night vision, thereby rendering any attempt at landing or continuing to fly extremely hazardous. Therefore, it is my contention that the use of colour signal guns from a closed cockpit should be banned as a flight safety risk.

Lastly, the many variations in colour controlled signals could be replaced by signals that are easier to identify and which mean the same on the ground as in the air. Get rid of all the variations and replace them with 3 different speed / duration flashing (easier to see than colours) lights that translate into GO/CONTINUE, STOP/WAIT, RETURN TO APRON/GO AWAY, e.g. Slow - long pulses for the first one, Medium - medium pulses for the middle one and Rapid - short pulses for the latter, similar to Marker Beacons. Use colours as well to aid the identification process but do not rely on one method of identification only.

I await constructive comments and debate eagerly, particularly those that will help develop the argument.

2close

JETTE

31st Jul 2006, 03:15

What a method of color vision tests is using in Malaysia?
Ishihara test? lantern test?
Please let me knoe. Thanks All!

nighteffect

1st Aug 2006, 18:42

till last yr, it has still been Ishihara, unless they've changed it to something else :rolleyes:

unfazed

1st Aug 2006, 20:58

Just to chuck in my pennies worth

I fail to see why a CVD pilot is not allowed to fly paying passengers (for a company with an AOC) DURING DAYLIGHT HOURS VFR ?

I asked the question when restrictions were imposed and was told "because commercial pressures might mean that you would fly after sundown" - Nonsense - what if the AOC was for day VFR operations only? what if I might break all of the air navigation order (or is it just because CAA are bloody minded and inflexible)

Next question - why can I not teach on aircraft other than G reg and only in UK airspace?
Answer - because we have got around the JAR rules by issuing a UK JAR license with restrictions so they cannot be automatically accepted by others

But not everyone in the world is JAR you idiots ! and some of them have already said I can fly at night !

So if G on tail no night, If N on tail the night OK ,

Why am I dangerous teaching on a French registered Cessna but not a UK registered one? has it got any bearing on seeing colours? answer No - but our hands are tied bt regulations and this is a bit of a paperwork fudge to get aroung things - you should be grateful ! Well i'm not bloody grateful because you should change the regulations to make them logical, sensible and factual with basis on the condition.

OK to teach in UK but not in Ireland......

What the hell has all of this got to do with a very slight colour perception problem ????

Answer nothing !!!

And the ising on the cake???

UK only aircraft and UK only airspace restrictions can be removed when passing CPL exams OR gaining 700 hours......but I have passed the CPL exams that is why you have issued me this restricted license....ah but thats because you are cvd.....so I waited until I had 700 HOURS AND PAID THE FEE AND THEY REMOVED THE RESTRICTION FROM ONE AREA PAGE OF MY LICENSE BUT NOT ANOTHER ????

This is the same CAA that issued me a night rating aFTER CONVERSION TRAINING FROM faa AND THEN restricted license to night only and wouldn't refund the fee for the night rating

Where else would this nonsense prevail????? Want a test case I am your man !!!!

whitelabel

2nd Aug 2006, 10:28

Can anybody tell if it is possible to downloas a practical colour vision test.
I do not mean Ishihara but a Lanter software program like beyne or HW, anomaloscope etc.
I know that it exists! I saw screenshots on internet pages.

greetz:8

windforce

6th Aug 2006, 00:01

UK only aircraft and UK only airspace restrictions can be removed when passing CPL exams OR gaining 700 hours......but I have passed the CPL exams that is why you have issued me this restricted license....ah but thats because you are cvd.....so I waited until I had 700 HOURS AND PAID THE FEE AND THEY REMOVED THE RESTRICTION FROM ONE AREA PAGE OF MY LICENSE BUT NOT ANOTHER ????

Hi unfazed, I've never heard (CAA has never told me) this story about the 700 hours/CPL exam... Any source, please?
I've check the LASORS as well, but there so mention (maybe i need to check again) about us...

As i said many times on this forum, this is a pure discrimination against us... CAA knows very well that our conditions are good for flying... but there are 2 things that i really don't understand:
If we are so UNSAFE as they say, why they let us to fly VFR? they should know that IFR is safer and better than VFR!!! := :{

and best of all... they don't let me fly IFR but i can get the IMC rating?!?! :ugh: :{

.... .... .... .... ....

wf

unfazed

6th Aug 2006, 17:15

Windforce

I did get a UK night rating (when converting my FAA license) so I can get an IR and fly IFR

The joke is that I should not have a night rating (but hey they issued it and it was all legit), so the fact is that I can fly IFR but not at night

What a joke !!! And the fact is that any other CVD who tries to get a night rating from scratch whilst training in UK won't be able to and will be told that they are dangerous at night, will most likely accept that at face value and never know the joy of night flying.

Trouble is once you know that you can fly safely at night you don't take kindly to people telling you that you can't, or that you are a danger.

Never give up that's what I say ~~!!1

Strobe lights

7th Aug 2006, 12:46

Ok, here is the latest news.. I went to see my AMC Dr. and I told him that I mistakely omitted information in my initial medical certificate application form with them, specifically the box that refers to any medical certificate denial.. He told me that I never lied to him as I told him before the exam that I had a colour vision problem. He also told me that ticking the wrong box (saying no instead of yes) in my particular case was not a big deal because it wouldn´t make any difference in the examination process and that I passed and I shouldn´t worry. I even renewed my medical certificate with them.
My worry now is that the country that denied me the medical certificate once might do something for getting my new medical certificate revoked as they are apparently not accepting it. They are angry because finally I made it and now I have a valid JAA certificate.. Does anybody knows if they can really do something to get my medical certificate revoked? Do they have to accept my new medical certificate or no? If they don´t accept it, what happens if I get a JAA/CPL from other european country, can I fly in my country with that licence or I have to go through any accepting process?:ugh:

waveydavey

7th Aug 2006, 13:35

Not sure what country you got your certificate in but if you omit information in the UK you are breaking the law. You sign a legally binding document stating you have not witheld any information.

Nothing might happen in your case. However, if you are ever involved in an aviation incident which is investigated then one of the things the investigators can do is pull your medical history. Then things get complicated for you.

Strobe lights

7th Aug 2006, 13:55

Thanks waveydavey.. I know.. and because of that, I gave a written request to the AMC asking for ammendment of my medical form.. I forgot to tell it in my previous message. The Dr. told me that he will ammend it if neccessarily..

gijoe

11th Aug 2006, 13:56

Thanks for linking these pictures - I like the last one! That must have been some wide angle lens.

Don't forget that your PC screen may have been set up so that it is biased towards certain colours and, being a CVD, you may not notice this. It is therefore a bit hit and miss to say that you won't be able to see the colours on the new test. In a real aircraft they stick out to me like nothing else.

Two points:

1. The runway shape provides more clues than the PAPIs during the day. At night it is a different story but the lights at the side of the runway still provide a massive clue to the aircraft's position relative to the glideslope of the runway in front.

2. Some of the pilots that I know would have trouble even seeing the lights on a PC screen let alone in the cockpit as they are facing another challenge of the 6/4 in each eye kind. These pilots are a mixture of military, commercial and private.

Let's hope this new test is a winner and is adopted by the CAA as quick as possible. It could be the start of a practical assessment of a person's ability to fly and interpret information rather than reliance upon outdated medical tests.

shgsaint

11th Aug 2006, 20:42

Cheers for the input gijoe.

I've come across the whole LCD screen and pixels versus actual filament bulbs before. To be honest I haven't done enough real world flying to effectively tell the difference. The last time I flew and experienced UK PAPIs was into EGHI (Southampton) where the sun was at our nose, the plexiglass was somewhat cracked in a few places and I had sunglasses on. So I couldn't really tell what the PAPI lights were showing.

However as you say looking at the shape of the runway is a very good indicator to your ideal vertical profile and I feel that I concerntrate more on this than guidance from PAPIS, VASIs and so forth. After all on every landing you can be sure that the same visual cue will be there; the runway. Not all airports and aerodromes have visual cues like PAPIs etc.

When I landed at Cairns in Oz in a Tiger Moth they have great visual landing aids. Its like a PAPI but in a T bar shape. Don't want to sound patronising but to people that haven't seen them, they're basically a line of white lights have white lights above and below the 'bar' If you're dead on glide scope you will just see a white bar. High and you'll see the white bar with incremental white dots above it, and below GS the reverse. I think if you go so low you should see complete red however you need to be driving into the airport to see that!

I looked at an optician report from last year and realised I had 6/4 vision in each eye. He said that theres no need for me to have a perscription but perhaps I will if I am to get the class 1.

gijoe

12th Aug 2006, 12:41

I hope not - your 6/4 visual acuity means, in effect, that you can see at 6 feet distance what some people can see at 4 feet...so you should have no problem.

G

shgsaint

12th Aug 2006, 14:33

Cool!

I never knew what it exactly meant.

This is my opticians card (from last year)

Right Eye:
Sphere: 8 (sideways?)
Cyl: 0.25 (line above the 0)
Axis: 80

Left Eye:
Sphere: same as right
Cyl: same as right
Axis: same as right

Va
Right:
Dist 6/4 -1
Near N4.5
Left:
Dist 6/4
Near N4.5

Unaided vision
Right 6/4 -3
Left 6/4 -2

Not too sure what most of it means however if I can see things at 6 feet what others can only see at 4 i'm a happy bunny!

2close

12th Aug 2006, 20:37

To respond to Eastsiders comment on the PAPI simulator, there appears to be some confusion here.

I have it directly from the horse's mouth that the CAA have 'approved' it and are only waiting on City University to pull their finger out and certify it for commercial use. In fact, they are quite frustrated about the length of time it is taking them, especially considering they have given them scores of names for testing over the past couple of years, my own included. That was in May 2005 and I have heard nothing from them.

2close

gijoe

13th Aug 2006, 08:36

The wheels of the research machine turn very, very slowly sometimes but it is occasionally worth the wait. This will, hopefully for all of those on here, be one of those occasions.

2close please could you expand on the exact state of play about the CAA approving the PAPI test? If you're not happy to here then please PM me.

Thanks

G

Jet_A_Knight

15th Aug 2006, 07:51

Shgsaint, we call those approach lights T-VASI. We use those and 4 PAPI in Australia.

I'm an EU citizen, and I've got more than 1800hrs Multi Engine Night Command and 600+I.F flying all sorts of aircraft including commuter turboprop, and it drives me nuts that i can't even fly a PA28 at night or IFR in the EU!!

Bring on the PAPI tests!!:ok:

shgsaint

15th Aug 2006, 20:59

Shgsaint, we call those approach lights T-VASI. We use those and 4 PAPI in Australia.

Those are the ones!

Very easy to determine your glide path from my experience.

Cheers mate. :ok:

east_sider

15th Aug 2006, 22:08

2Close, I agree there seems to be mixed information, I'm not doubting what you say for a moment, all info welcome to try and work out together what is going on!

Here is a relevant extract of an email I received yesterday (14/08/06) from the lady who did my tests at City uni:

".....As explained to you we are carrying out a new study to eventually assess what level of colour vision is necessary to perform certain tasks in aviation environment. The tests have been finalised and I've started to test some people on them, especially normals. About 2 hours of testing may be required, probably less. If you would like to participate let me know and we can set up an appointment."

I think she's pretty keen for volunteers for this, both with known CVD and normal colour vision, anyone who is interested to know more please PM me.

(Please note I'm in no way associated with City Uni - just your average wannabee trying to work out if he's got a chance). Although I dunno why I'm bothering anymore seeing as I can't get that class 1..... :{

On a more positive note at least I'm starting my PPL proper this weekend at Stapleford!

cheers all.

Martin1234

19th Aug 2006, 12:24

Strobe lights, my guess is that;

your JAA country where you failed can do very little to get your current medical, issued by another state, revoked. If you have been issued with a medical certificate they really can't revoke it on grounds that were known when it was issued. Besides, another JAA member state has as little authority over other JAA states as you and me.

The country where you failed your medical could theoretically invalidate your (future?) flying licence when exercising the priviliges on aircraft registered in that country or, which is even more far out, prohibit you to fly in their airspace. I would say that the first example is against the EU principle of accepting each other certificates (especially since both are JAR) if both countries involved are an EU/EEA member. The second example should be against the ICAO convention since you meet the minimum standard outlayed by ICAO.

So in short, you should have now problem even though the country where you failed might give you a legal challenge in the future. However, do they require that you tell them that you use your JAR licence on their aircraft? If not, they will probably never find out and hence no probalem.

Strobe lights

21st Aug 2006, 09:46

Thanks Martin.. but, how can I know this for sure? I mean, I might end up flying all over EU and suddenly this JAA country appears with a legal challenge against me (or against my Medical Certificate or Licence).. My AMC Dr. told me not to worry as he knew that I had a problem (I aware him) and that I shouldn´t worry about ticking yes or no, it wouldn´t change anything in my medical examination. How can I know that I wouldn´t get my medical revoked later on? I know that it will be against the EU principle of accepting each other certificates (especially since both are JAR) if both countries involved are an EU/EEA member, but shouldn´t they accept the JAA Medical Certificate that I have now and they are not? It´s all in JAR but still.. some national authorities do what they please :yuk: !!
I´ve read about some similar cases like mine but my question is if they finally received mutual recognition even with a previous denial? :ok:

Jet_A_Knight

21st Aug 2006, 18:07

CAA Paper 2006/04 Part 1: Minimum Colour Vision Requirements for Flight Crew: The Use of Colour Signals and the Assessment of Colour Vision Requirements in Aviation

I haven't read this yet - just downloaded it so far (I'm a bout to go to work)

Go here: http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=2407

This paper details an examination as to whether the current colour vision tests and standards for professional pilots are still appropriate for modern aviation. This is part of a study to develop a new colour vision test and establish standard norms for the chromatic sensitivity that can be used to quantify the severity of colour vision lots.

I hope it's good news...

Martin1234

21st Aug 2006, 18:33

Overflying the specific JAA country should be no problem. The only problem I can see that _might_ happen is if you use your future pilot licence on an aircraft registered in the country where you failed your medical _and_ the authority knows that you, who failed their medical, is flying an aircraft on their registry. However, as stated as of above, even if so happens it should pose no problem. In a few years time EASA might have come into effect and all might have changed by then, probably for the better in your case.

gijoe

23rd Aug 2006, 09:56

I recommend the above research paper to everyone. I saw the draft about a year ago and this has built upon that.

The paper will give you a good insight into the business of being a CVD and highlights the main issues at stake here.

In essence, the paper says the whole issue needs looking at and a standard test devised. It also says that colour vision is not necessarily linked to safety or the abilility of a person to fly an aircraft.

Well done City University.

G

FAA fit / JAR unfit

23rd Aug 2006, 11:57

Thanks Jet A Knight.. good post!! and yes well done for City!!:ok:
I hope it all goes in the right direction for all of us CVD´s sentenced to ground by the "old-fashioned rules" defenders:yuk: ..

airbusa340

23rd Aug 2006, 15:58

Hello fellow aviators:
I do apologize If i'm starting another color blindess thread instead of posting in the designated area.
I have aquestion regarding the Isahara color blindness test they administer for 1st class medicals; I applied for a 1st class yesterday and they asked me to flip through a booklet of about 15 or so circles w/ numbers; you guys know the procedure; 2 of them i couldn't read them so i thought they were the unreadable ones they put in just to throw you off in case your color vision isn't normal; the nurse then tells me I got two numbers wrong so if she was right i'm sure those were the ones she was referring to. I've done this test before and I remember there is always one circle at the end that doesn't have a number emerge to color normal individuals, but it turns out that in this boklet all the circles contained a number. I still got the class 1; the doctor never mentioned anything abou that, but my question is if this has ever happened to any of you before and if you have to get all the samples right in order to qualify to pass w/ the color vison test or if there is some percentage you have to score above. I've taken a bunch of samples online that same day when I got home and I never managed to find that same color circle which I couldn't decipher; so my guess is that my color vision is fine; could I be wrong?? http://www.flightlevel350.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_sad.gif

rhovsquared

23rd Aug 2006, 22:40

I hope this helps http://www.casa.gov.au/manuals/regulate/dame/080rfull.pdf#search=%22fars%20medical%20requirements%20color %20blindness%20class1%22:\ :\ :\
post if you have any difficulty with this, I certainty will:\ :ugh: :{

But Post Post Post :ok:,

rhov :)

Jimmy The Big Greek

24th Aug 2006, 07:00

Don't worry.

On some books one number is missing on others its not.

Maybe the illumination in the room was not good.

steelegbr

24th Aug 2006, 19:41

Just to update, I have now sat the FAA class 1 medical and passed on the ishara plates. Concidering I completely failed the CAA colour vision tests, not bad eh?

ruffino

25th Aug 2006, 09:39

Hi there.. Does anybody knows what happens if you omit information, for example, if you omit that you have been denied a medical certificate for the same class in a JAA country before, if you don´t mention it in the medical formulary before the new examination takes place in a different JAA country .
What happens if the country that denied you the initial medical certificate finds out that you passed it in a different JAA country but you didn´t mention that you had a denial with them??
Does anybody knows? and most important, can that be ammended somehow? can you ask for an ammendment of your statement?
and also, if you put that you had a denial in a JAA country before, will they pass you anyway or what procedure do they follow? Does anybody knows these??
Regards,

Do you know which examination the initial doc failed you on? Why do you think you failed the initial and why did you go for a second?

all the best

Ruffino

soeren

25th Aug 2006, 10:36

I haven't read this yet - just downloaded it so far (I'm a bout to go to work)
Go here: http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=2407
I hope it's good news...
And don't forget the second part, there are two documents ! :) :
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=2408

Bealzebub

25th Aug 2006, 15:32

There seems to be two issues running here.

One concerns omitting information on a medical application. The second concerns not accepting or liking the results of a medical examination and as result going forum shopping until you get the result you want.

If you omit relevant information you should correct it at the earliest opportunity. Of course you cannot omit something you did not reasonably know at the time, however if you did withold relevant information you can expect undesirable consequences as a result.

If you are denied a medical and then decide to go shopping in another forum to obtain a different result, you cannot really expect the initial authority to simply say "that's fine" and accept the new result, where they have already raised a concern or made a stipulation.

To suggest that any medical deficiency is best judged by the individual themselves as to whether they are "safe" or not is simply inaccurate and irrelevant. An attempt to bypass the criteria set down by a state is probably naive and certainly a risky venture if the applicant ever intends having to make a subsequent application to that state.

I wish you well in your endeavour, and hope you are successful in resolving these difficulties, however I do feel you have been the architect of your own misfortune here and believed what you wanted to believe in order to suit your own situation.

rhovsquared

25th Aug 2006, 16:25

oop's wrong regulatory agency that's what I get for googling :O :O :O, I thoought that was a US sight sorry:confused:

http://www.leftseat.com/colorvision.htm

this one is correct although Australia seems very nice, I think you want the US way :} :} :}

rhov:}

whitelabel

25th Aug 2006, 20:44

Well finally a breakthrough. This is the study we all been waiting for and compliments to the CAA/JAA and City university. I look a bit like the australian research a few years ago only more extensive.

Is the new test already in production and if not, when will it? and what is the standard for a class 1? I am very curious.

I know some of you guys went to the city university.

thanks for the info.

greetz
:p

Pigsfly

25th Aug 2006, 22:15

Strobe lights, for Gods sake grow up. Watch more Simpsons, Homer has plenty advice in these cases. Forget about it, get on with your Career.

2close

26th Aug 2006, 14:19

steelgbr,

Could you elaborate on your experience a little.

Where and when did you take the FAA and JAA tests?

2close

Strobe lights

26th Aug 2006, 17:55

Hi Ruffino..

The initial Doc failed me with the colour lantern test due to my mild CVD. I went to try another test somewhere else (JAA) because I am already a Pilot with an FAA CPL and an FAA 1st class unrestricted since 1990, so I thought that I should give it another try somewhere else.. Besides, I was never happy on how they managed my case (I felt discriminated!! - like if a had a contagious disease!!).. Why the **** I cannot fly in my country or in any other EU-JAA state?.. Yes, I am CVD, so? What are the lanterns for? I am already flying.. Isn´t it silly that I can come to every EU-JAA state with an FAA resgistered B747?? Who is that Doc to tell me that I can not fly anymore??

Fortunately the JAA rules gives some choices about acceptable colour lanterns types (it says that you can pass "ONE" of the lanterns and you can be considered "safe" (shopping around?? or fair options-chances?).. Does JAR´s says that if you have a medical denied you can never ever try again or that you can not go to other JAA country??

Due to all mentioned above and similar cases posted here in PPRUNE (thanks guys!!) I decided to try somewhere else and I finally end up passing the test with "flying colours"!!. Why the ***^ they (my country) are not accepting-recognicing my new unrestricted JAA 1st Class Medical Certificate?? it is all JAA and I can use it all over the EU, around my country too:eek: !!:ugh: !!?¿? Are they upset because I finally got it? :E

All they are holding to is that I didn´t mention in my new initial medical application form that I had a denial before, that´s what I call b*****t..
Like I posted here before, I´ve talked personally to my new Doc and he told me that he knew that I had a CVD problem (I told him when I did my appointment) and that I shouldn´t worry about ticking yes or no in the ******* box, he told me that he treated me as a new candidate with a CVD problem, that´s what I call fair, impartial!!.. And just in case, I also gave him a written letter requesting ammendment of my "ticking" mistake because I know that they (my country) will try to take the medical off me for sure. The "ticking" it is only an excuse as any other that they will look for..

Regards..

Strobe lights

26th Aug 2006, 18:25

Pigsfly.. thanks!! I´ll check for Homer more often!!

Bealzebub.. thanks for your post and nope, I never liked the results. At the above post you´ll find many reasons why, I have some more if you want.
Looking for the result that I want? no!! the one´s that I deserve and not only the results but the treatment!! (forum shopping? can I shop here?)..
What I do expect from the initial authority? to know and comply the JAA-JAR´s and off course accept my medical certificate and the reality that I am already a pilot..

The Doc that denied my first initial medical doesn´t even knows that other lanterns exists until I showed him, they don´t even have an advance "practical" medical training (I personally asked him), as required by our beloved JAA-JAR´s..
I know a lot about my country and about the "civil servants" here, they love to play God.. How can that person tells me that I can not fly due to my CVD when he doesn´t even know nothing about all these? If somebody comes here and demostrates and convinces me that I shouldn´t be flying I´ll pay him!!.. but guess what? the real situation is that I can demostrate right the opposite!! do they let you do that? Why not?

Irrelevant that we (CVD - already pilots) really knows if we are safe or not?!!.. irrelevant? do you think that I´ll be flying around if I wouldn´t differentiate any of the colours that we see and use while flying!!! Does anybody knows how many CVD Pilot´s are flying under FAA alone?

I´ve been in an A320 cockpit many times (glass cockpit :uhoh: ), for the whole part of the flight, with a captain that knew my "colour defficiency", and guess what he said after several flights practicing around with the colours?..

I know that I can use my new JAA medical for flying all over EU but what if they (my country) try to get my medical suspended or even worse, revoked by the JAA? that´s what I´m worried about and that´s my question here.. Can they do that? Why they don´t just accept it and recognized that I passed one of the ****** lanterns with a JAA recognized AMC, that I now have been considered "safe" by a JAA AMC/AMS!! :ugh: :ugh:

Well, I guess that´s enough for now, sorry for the lengthy post!! and yes I am an architect, of my life, my only misfortune is to stumble with intransigent people, not ready for a change and not prepared enough to make decisions, decisions that affects other´s people lives. Simply, not fair!!

Regards..