VISION THREAD (other than colour vision)

[shortarse_Yoda]

I took the CAA test last around 11 years ago. I have never had any issues with my SODA (apart from the CAA no accepting it and only giving me a restricted class 2 medical on the basis of my FAA class 1). However I have only ever worked as a flight instructor and don't any more but I would like to do it again and really want to push getting my UK 'day only' restrictions lifted. My colour vision fails the latern test but in reality flying at night I have neve had an issue with , VASA, PAPI etc and other aircraft. I had 1 1 hour flight test at night with an FAA medical examiner and he was satisfied. I'ts rediculus as I have a UK comercial licence but can only fly at day time!

When you say the CAA test has changed do you mean the holmes - wright latern test or whatever it's called, or something else. I like you are an old dude but I cannot get flying bug out of my head even now after all these years if I could have got a UK medical 20years ago I would be a virgin a340 skipper by now, bummer!

[Blinkz]

hmmm that is very interesting as the CAA seem to have changed there protocol for doing the beyne lantern. Went I did it with them around 3 years ago I was just shown each colour once and told to identify it, plus I wasn't told that the white is a dirty white and not a dulex one that I was expecting. This new protocol with showing each colour a couple of times is more like the german protocol that I passed.

[shortarse_Yoda]

I have failed the h w latern test twice (once recorded, once not recorded) However I'm interested to know if the Beynes test (if you pass it) is the only one you have to do now or whether you have to pass BOTH? I found the h w hard and mixed up the green and white on at least one pass.

Thanks for the replies so far.

SY.

[east_sider]

My Beyne test was the same as yours Benwizz, but my H-W was significantly different in places:

1. I only did the H-W test once, with the lights on, as you describe for your first run.

2. I was not offered a second H-W run of any format (lights on, in darkness, whatever).

3. For H-W the colour pairs were shown for 1-2 seconds max, certainly not 5 seconds.

Also for my Beyne, which was done in near darkness, I was only allowed a few moments for my eyes to acclimatise. Mind you I didn't ask for time to acclimatise, did you ask, or was it offered, or did it seem standard proceedure?

Does anyone think I've got a case for complaining, or a re-test? How would I prove what my experience was on the day? I've had the official letter classifying me as "CP4 colour unsafe" so I think it would be a battle...?

[benwizz]

Everything seemed standard procedure, she just said now we will do this, and after I did the H-W in the light, she said now you have 15 minutes in the dark for your eyes to adjust.

For the Beyne, I had the same as you, lights switched off and then just a few moments to adjust.

You could always give them a ring because I'm sure they'll have a record of the tests you did, she wrote mine down on a sheet ,presumably with different sections for the conditions. If not then I'm sure they will let you take the new PAPI test when it is introduced.

[east_sider]

Thanks Tel - I did the City Uni tests a while ago, my diagnosis was "Moderate Protonamly". If I'm honest with myself I think its unlikely I could pass however it was done, based on the variations described above I think I'd still fail them all. The Beyne lantern was my last hope really, I found it easier than H-W but still failed. If you're borderline on colour vision they're all damn tricky.

I feel reasonably confident I could pass the FAA practical test, because I have no problems landing at night with PAPI's etc (not P1 obviously, Pu/t!)

Its a good idea to get someone else to write to Gatwick on test protocols - I might try that.

Good luck everyone still fighting this.

[2close]

East-sider,

If you weren't offered a H-W re-test in darkened conditions, it's because you made a critical error the first time around, i.e. naming red as green or vice versa.

You only get offered the dark adapted test if you make a non-critical error, i.e. naming red as white or green as white or vice versa.

The timing of 1 - 2 seconds is correct. Anyone having 5 second exposures has been very fortunate.

HTH

2close

[benwizz]

I also found the Beynes easier to see than the H-W in the light, apart from the White/Orange problem, as the lights were a lot larger. However, even though the H-W dots are very small, doing the H-W in the dark did make all the difference for me, as it was the brightness that she turned down before the test.

Best of luck

[2close]

Telboy,

The new tests are a screening test that you can view at City University's website, which it is proposed would be followed by a PAPI simulator that uses Red and White lights only.

I flew the ILS into a UK international airport the other day and had no problem identifying the PAPI lights from 6nm out - I have no idea how many PAPIs I've used during landings over the last 15 years but I can honestly say that their appearance does not appear remotely similar to the PAPI simulator.

Also, a point I have raised before, is that introduction of the simulator is discriminatory against protonomalous CVD persons as they may be unable to detect the red/white whereas a deuteronomalous person may be able to detect the red/white difference but be completely unable to discriminate between greens and other colours. Therefore, the latter may have a far worse form of CVD but be granted a Cl.1 medical on the basis of succesfully passing the PAPI simulator whereas the former, with a relatively mild red/white CVD, may be denied the medical.

2close

[Ww/W]

Just pondering ;)
Does anybody think there is much 'ammo' here for a court case against the CAA and it's archaic regulations. Most people are aware of Dr. Pape in Aussie I assume. It feels like we've hit a brick wall, and need to knock the :mad: thing down.
:ugh:

:)

[TelBoy]

Ww/W To be fair the CAA are looking into new colour vision standards, although they are being slow!!

As "potential" professional pilots we must all take responsibility for saftey and allow due processes to make sure that final desissions are what is correct and in the larger interest. We must overlook personal difficulties as if we do eventually reach our aims, we will be responsible for the lives of hundreds of people on a daily basis and I for one would sacrafice my own dreams, rather than put lives in danger.

However I am concerned that the new "PAPI" test people are talking about would not test for green. For me this would be an advantage and I think I would pass no problems, but green is an aviation colour!

In my own view the FAA procedures of practical testing are right and appropriate as they are based on what pilots need, rather than looking at dots or light boxes. If 8% of males are "colour blind" then take for example how many professional male US pilots there are - how many of these have had to pass the practical tests! Although company medicals and bias against the SODA waiver will root out a few, our skys must be full of FAA qualified pilots that could NOT pass JAA standards, however how many have had accedents caused by colour vision (none to my knowledge, although I will stand correction of course).

As for taking the CAA to court, I do not think it will help. If "we" win then we are likely to be restricted in so many ways that it would not be of any use (like Australia!!).

Maybe a poll sent to the JAA for European and US harmonisation so that we can all have a practical test - maybe a night flight test - maybe even with glass cockpit so that ALL the ICAO can have very similar standards and maintain saftey without compromising peoples rights against discrimination in the workplace.

[gijoe]

I agree with 2close on his final legal point.

My solicitor said that there is more than enough to make the CAA itch during a judicial review of the rules...but it wouldn't be cheap!!

G

[TelBoy]

I get your points guys and do agree that action is needed, but not to only be slapped by further restrictions. Take Australia - for CPL they do not have ANY colour vision standards, but if you cannot pass a colour vision test, you can only fly in OZ - not a lot of use really.

This extract from 2Close is VERY interesting - "Disability Rights Commission stated that, to conform with the requirements of the DDA, the CAA could only refuse to issue a Class 1 medical certificate to a CVD pilot if they could prove that the person was not competent to hold such a certificate" Do you think if you hold an unrestricted class 1 FAA medical after all an ICAO state that that would be grounds for action.

As for the CAA/JAA failing to protect us from the CVD's - well we all know that the FAA HAS tested ALL of its pilots by a more informed and practical test than Europe and indeed they these people do NOT represent a problem.

In short YES we DO need change. If legal action is the only way, then that is what is needed, but just remember guys the CAA/JAA has a lot more money to fight the legal process than hard up pilots and while the CAA are in fact reviewing changes the legal process is likely to take a LONG time. But with regards to personal circumstances then I feel that each individual should fight under the DDA. I am indeed gathering ammo right now - will keep you all informed.

As for new tests PRACTICAL is the only way - no screening, let EVERYONE do a practical test. It will cost more and be more difficult to administer, but hey we all have to do a skills test don't we!!

[biggles7374]

Here is a copy of my Post from 12th January, better act fast guys cause if you agreed with my take on tyhe situation time is clearly running out for us all in respect of legal challenge.

I would suspect many of the readers of this forum are in a similar situation to me, waiting patiently for the new CAD / PAPI tests to be released by City Uni for the CAA to use. It can't come quick enough.

I thought it would be useful to just recap on the situation as I see it, these are the facts:

International aviation is governed by the ICAO and the Air Navigation Order which calls for Colour Vision sufficient for the safe performance of duties. Colour Vision requirements from country to country vary widely despite the fact that everyone has access to the same research and the same old researchers keep cropping up again and again.

The CAA have publically announced that they suspect (which really means know) they are excluding people on the basis of out of date tests and have commissioned City University to develop a new test which we eagerly await. It is the intention to get this test approved by the ICAO and have this new test introduced worldwide.

The DRC used to have the following question on their website, but now it has been removed:

Q:
I have been refused a professional pilot's licence because I have defective colour vision. I have passed certain tests that the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) set but was unable to distinguish between red and green. Is the CAA discriminating against me by refusing to give me a licence?
A:
The CAA is a professional qualification body and has a duty not to treat people less favourably for reasons relating to their disability. However, it is likely that it will be justified in not awarding a licence to you if the ability to distinguish between red and green is a competence standard which is required to be a professional pilot.


Let me now offer my take on the situation, some will maybe see this as a conspiracy theory.

The CAA know they are discriminating as this has been alluded to by some of the medics, this is a bigger political issue than many people can appreciate because I suspect there may have been pressure from the DRC or some other government agency to do something about it in the face of changing discriminatory legislation both in this country and in Europe as a whole. This is not confirmed to colour vision, there seems lately to have been a flurry of watering down of the medical requirements relating to eyesight, medical conditions etc. Have the CAA sympathetically done this off their own back or has their been under pressure from a more 'senior' authority not to exclude people unless they can demonstrate evidence to back up their position 100%

You will notice the question that WAS posted on the DRC website, the question has been answered and the answer is 100% correct given the question asked. Let me ask the question another way:

Q:
I have been refused a professional pilot's licence by the UK CAA because I have defective colour vision. I am able to go to the United States of America and I am able to gain a Professional Pilots licence that enables me to fly in airspace, and land at airports in FAA N registered commercial aircraft at destinations all over the world including the UK. Exactly the same tests are used in both countries however each country has a significantly different 'pass' criteria. Both the FAA and the CAA have the same duty to set competence standards for pilots so that the requirements of the Air Navigation Order are met (ie colour perception for the safe performance of airman duties). Is the CAA, by setting medical requirements higher than in other parts of the world discriminating against me by refusing to give me a licence?
A:
?????????


The original answer was quite correct in stating that the 'CAA is a professional qualification body and has a duty not to treat people less favourably for reasons relating to their disability'. The fact is they are setting competency standards that are, in some cases way in excess those required in other parts of the world and therefore they are discriminating against people who want to fly in UK registered aircraft, albeit the people are from different parts of the world.

There is no arguing that the CAA do a good, professional job at enforcing the rules that are in force, but they as a professional organisation also have a duty to ensure that rules set are the safe minimum so as not to discriminate against ANYBODY!!! The FAA as an example have more relaxed rules relating to colour vision and by definition considers the safe minimum to be much lower than our guys at the UK CAA.

SO here is my rather cynical view.

The new test is being introduced because many recognise that the old tests are no longer appropriate and also to passify colour defectives and give them hope, they say the standard will be reviewed and relaxed if appropriate but there is no guarantee of this. I honestly hope it does. Meantime we wait patiently doing nothing and keeping the status quo.

In the background however there are wishes to allow the test to receive ICAO approval and it's use introduced worldwide as THE international colour vision standard. This test is backed up by evidence which no doubt will be authoritive and will be difficult to challenge. No longer will pilots have the opportunity to go down the FAA route if they fail a JAA medical cause all the standards will be the same, and guess what they used the toughest standards in the world to validate the new test!!!

Neither will the CAA be at risk from future claims of discrimination on the basis that it will not be possible to say that the CAA is treating people less favorably than the aviation authorities over the world, we will just be met with the answer this person has been excluded on the basis of the international competency standard for colour vision which is the same all around the world and this is quite legitimate.

SO, Problem solved......which problem? I hear you ask. Get a fair test that does not unnecessarily exclude colour defectives or protect the CAA from claims of discrimination?

Which is correct, only YOU CAN DECIDE!!!

[unfazed]

I don't think that the FAA are going to implement a new colour test that will discriminate people even if it has been rubber stamped by City Uni in London.


I do believe that a legal challenge is the best way to blow away these archaic practices and tests. The best form of defense is attack and I just can't help thinking that an organisation sponsor such as AOPA or a Human Rights organisation could bring a class action against CAA. There is a greater chance of positive change if a very large group of pilots took a group legal action.

Is there a CVD pilot / barrister out there who would like to advise and organise ???

[TelBoy]

The CAA v FAA thing is a good argument I think. The FAA will test practically if the screening test is failed. IF you pass their practical test, they give you a SODA (Statement of Demonstrated Ability), now we know there are thousands of male US pilots flying all around the world daily. By stats 8% of these should be CVD, so US CVD pilots are logging probably thousands of hours a week without colour vision related accedents. I think this shows the FAA HAVE complied with the Air Navigation Order.

Now consider this. If you fail tests at Gatwick and then ask them to take into consideration your FAA SODA and they say no - then they are surley either admiting that they are breaking the Air Navigation Order or that the FAA is - I'm sure that is not a good situation for them to be in.

For all those who have looked at legal action - has anyone taken advice on this? or has anyone actually asked the CAA to take an FAA SODA into consideration?

Hope that someone can give some interesting feedback about this.

[biggles7374]

As I said in my last post I believe the window of opportunity is closing and I would say it is time to put up or shut up in respect of a legal challenge.

Ideally the challenge would be made by an aspiring CVD pilot who would be eligible to apply for Legal Aid - but this takes time.

I agree a group of pilots would be the best way to proceed, you can tell from the posts that feelings on this subject are running at an all time high. I wonder how many are prepared to put their money where their feelings are???

I would estimate a challenge against the CAA would not be cheap as they would take it all the way. I would put a cost of £250,000 as a good figure to budget on an action costing, obviously if we win we would look to get our costs back and from the legal advice alluded to in this forum we have a more than good chance. The CAA's actions have shown us their hand, they are without doubt on the run!!!!

So are their 250 individuals out their who would be willing to risk £1,000 of their hard earned for the change of their dreams?

It is time to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and take positive action but it is going to take a reasonable number to do it. If anyone is wondering I am serious but we need the numbers.

[biggles7374]

Hi Unfazed

The FAA won't have a choice if it is implemented by the ICAO!

Oh and the head of the ICAO based in Canada is the ex top medical man for the CAA in Gatwick.

:ugh:

[2close]

Hi Biggles,

I doubt if ICAO would introduce anything so specific.

As for the FAA having no choice, countries can deviate from ICAO SARPs - they merely need to advise ICAO of the deviation and lets face it, it's the USA we are talking about here; these days they hardly pay attention to world opinion or even international law on any other matter (e.g. Iraq, Kyoto).

I take it you're referring to Dr Tony Evans, in which case that is a line of approach worth considering.

2close

[Tutaewera]

Hi,
I hold Class 1 medicals in OZ, NZ, SIN etc, lately by virtue of renewal standards not being overly concerned with my changes in uncorrected vision over the last 20 years.
The problem is I have high astigmatism in my left eye (+.75 SH / -4.00 CYL / 105 AXIS). Right eye is OK; (.50 SH / .75 CYL / 95 AXIS)
I see the new JAA class 1 initial issue standards state a limit of 2.00 dioptres for astig. :(
So I felt that had knocked me out of getting a JAA Class 1 medical, but have heard about CAA UK isssuing something called a "deviation" clearance, allowing pilots to enable them to complete their training. After that they can get a renewal with no such limits. Is this true? Anyone who knows care to comment?

[Tamesy1]

Yes this was possible up until 7th December 2006, however the 'deviation route' has now been removed with the new FCL-3 amemdment.

See this page for more info:

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=49&pagetype=87

T1

[Tutaewera]

Thanks for the link Tamesy1. But if one reads the downloadable .pdf section on deviation it states:

ICAO Licence holders
Existing licence holders (i.e., a current valid licence equivalent to the medical certificate for which they are applying e.g. CPL or ATPL for class1, PPL for class 2) from other ICAO states with appropriate demonstrated experience applying for initial issue of a JAA medical certificate will be assessed to the JAA initial standard. Those who fall outside the initial standard, but within the revalidation standard and subject to satisfactory assessment and appropriate limitations, may be considered for a long-term deviation, which will then be transferred to their JAA licence, when issued.

So to answer my own question, it looks like those with existing ICAO class 1 medicals and industry experience CAN get deviation. Its just for ab initios where its been dumped...

But many thanks for the link, its solved the problem. :}

[Mr Man]

Hi ,
I have a friend (honestly)who had a problem with the standard plates,so had VFR restriction.He desperately wants a class 1.He has done the lantern test with no success (apparently got 4 right instead of the minimum 6)and was advised that his very last option was the "Dutch?"test.Now I know nothing about colour blindness and would like to put this all into perspective before advising him.I would be really grateful for any advice on options etc.I have done a search but there seems so much on the subject that I'm struggling to find info relative to his problem with my non existent knowledge in this field.
Thanks in advance,oh,by the way,I know the prob is green and white if this helps.

[TelBoy]

Mr Man

Have a look at page 10 of this thread a few people have made comments about Class 1 in Holland.

As for your "friend" saying he did not get the minimum 6 right????? I thought you had to get all right!

He should have been able to do the Holmes Wright test which is two lights one above the other. They will show red, white or green and you have to say what they are. Then there is the Bayne test. I personally have not taken this yet but understand that is shows red, white, orange, blue and green.

Another option if he wants to fly outside Europe is the FAA route. If you look at my previous posts about FAA testing I need to be corrected. Now you only need to pass the light signal test to get any class medical. I only found this when I applied for a replacment waiver and got a letter back saying that it is good for ANY class medical :ok: see http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/app_process/exam_tech/item52/

The signal test is to read the tower signal gun at distances upto about a mile. IF you pass (some people here think the FAA is a route for all CVD, but you still need to pass the test) you get a SODA - Statement of Demonstrated Ability, and this acts as the colour vision part of your medical.

Good luck to your friend, he needs it. Do not give up and why not get him to post here personally - this forum has been a real boost for me.

[ROTHERFLY]

Hi All.

My First Thread On Pprune. Im Mr Man's "friend" ! So I Do Exist !!

Just Got Back From Dublin Where I Failed The Holmes Wright Test. Got 6 Wrong Out Of 22. On My Initial Isihara Plates I Got 6 Wrong Out Of 18.

The Problem For Me Is The Green/white Lightcombination On The Test.
Thanks Telboy For The Advise And Links Which I've Looked Through. My Fear Is That Even If I Took The Beyne Lantern Test I Still Wont Be Able To Pick Out Those Colours. The Faa Route May Be The Only Option Left. Would Appreciate Any Advise/experience On The Matter.

Regards.

[TelBoy]

Rotherfly - why not try the City Unit test if you are going to be in the UK. £75 and they will give you all the tests so that you can see what you can do and actually try the Bayne.

The FAA light Signal Test (as I took it) was taken sitting in a car with an FAA examiner. This guy is NOT a Doctor but an FAA official. First we parked at 1000 yards from the tower and the FAA guy radioed the tower to start the test. You tell him the colours you see. The test was then repeated at 1500 yards. The FAA man was concerned that the tower had tinted windows and this would affect the test, but I passed OK - I'm not sure if they allow mistakes.

To get the test you must have an FAA medical with restrictions because of colour vision. You then apply to the FAA and they give you a letter to take the test. Sorry I can't remember the exact details, it was 13 years ago. If you pass you can use this towards any aviation medical.

NOTE: Even the FAA said that employers do not like the SODA waiver, but I know that jobs ARE there for the right people with them.

We all know how you feel here in this forum, but don't get down, do everything you can to fulfill your dreams.

City Uni is at :http://www.city.ac.uk/optometry/public_clinic/colourvision.html

Hope this helps. PM me if you wish and all the best for your future.

[Beaver diver]

I am just curious as I have heard that for some companies a government regulated medical Class 1 with no restrictions just isn't enough so they like to dig further. Does anyone knows what those medical exams consist of and which companies in UK practice their own medical exams?
I have had some problems with colour deficiency, but nevertheless I have JAA and Canadian Class 1 medical with no restrictions, since I have under gone the alternative Lantern test.
Few days ago I went for an assesment to Stansted for working on the airport and they didn't grant me the job, because I could't read those outdated isihara plates. So, I am a little bit worried how stringent do companies get and are there any that are not? (Ryanair, Easyjet,BMI...?)

Thanks and you can PM me as well, I'd appreciate your help

Cheers

[TelBoy]

Beaver diver - I would complain to the DDA about the place at Stanstead. If the regulators say you are safe to fly there, how can they say that you are unsafe!!!

About time that discrimination like this was delt with.

Good luck mate.

[Mr Man]

Thanks for the time TelBoy,good of you to care!

[Beaver diver]

Thanks for the support!

We should actually make an website regarding this issues and make petitions and then maybe the CAA and JAA would make a change...
I wrote a letter to CAA regarding my case and they've replied that it is going to take them up to ten days to reply...we'll see.
But really, it is about time that we make some sort of petition or something to address this problem and get some back up from the respected doctors as well. Let me know if anyone interested and then lets pull our strings together. Individually ,we can't do much, but if we try together, things must move forward...
I will contact few people for the website and see how it goes. All of you who are serious and interested to move this issue forward, please send me an e- mail.
My e mail is : [email protected]

Talk to you later

BD;)

[unfazed]

wHAT ABOUT A MASS PROTEST IN THE FORM OF A NIGHT FLIGHT BY ALL CVD'S IN THE COUNTRY AT THE SAME TIME

ILLEGAL BUT WOULD RAISE PR PROFILE A BIT AND CONFRONT CAA

DONT FORGET THEY COULD PAY FOR THE LEGAL COSTS IF THEY WANTED TO PROSECUTE EVERYONE WHO TOOK PART (SHOE ON THE OTHER FOOT THEN)

BIT RISKY BUT I WOULD DO IT TO CHALLENGE THE RULES AS THEY STAND

GET SOME MEDIA COVERAGE ?

[TelBoy]

Hey unfazed that would cause a stir for all of us FAA PPL holders with SODA waiver - who ARE night rated (provided an N is on the side of the aircraft) because the FAA PPL also covers night!!

How daft the rules are.

Can the CAA take an FAA licence away when you are operating within its legal framework (oh except a G on side of aircraft)?

Jails are full anyway

[unfazed]

Daft rules deserve scrutiny in court so let CAA pay for legal challenge

Easier to defend a logical position than an illogical and twisted rule

I for one would love to run rings through their case and I would have fun doing it

Drat my anti-authoratitive dangerous personality type is coming to the fore again !!!!!!:\

[speedbird421]

Hi guys,
Am 40 yrs old, taking up aviation as a career. Been diagnosed with internal squint wherein the prism test gives 20 diopters for near-sightedness and 10 diopters for far-sightedness. For the 3-d vision test i was diagnosed to be able to see plates (probably what they call stereoscopic pictures), of 480 measure,with the help of 3-d vision glasses. plates of a measure of 240 and 60-120 were not visible to me.
The doctor said that i will not be cleared by the medical examiners at the class 1 level. For an example,the squint specailist says i will be unable to judge ccloseness to the runway at the time of landing an aircraft. Well, this is certainly not true, as i have had a few hours of flying experience lately, and have been successsfully able to judge, when an aircraft is to be flared.
I, MOST DEFINETELY, HAD NO TROUBLE IN GAUGING THE PROXIMITY OF GROUND WHILST LANDING.
None of the eye specialists i have met, know of any permissisble limits, prescribed by the Directorate General Of Civil Aviation(DGCA), in India.
Can anyone please tell me what limits have been set by ICAO, regarding
my query.
I do enjoy 20/20 vision and have no reading glasses or spectacles for ar sightedness.
PLEASE HELP.
Thank you.

[Owenrules]

Hi all,
Just new to your forum, I too unfortunately suffer from CVD (well apparently). My situation I think is somewhat similar to every last one of you, I can see great from day to day, I can tell the difference between all colors but when someone places those damn plates in front of me I seem to hit a brick wall.

On the contrary, unlike most of you guys I'm not yet a pilot by any standards (unless you count all the Flight Simulators). I have wanted to fly commercially all my life and was told from an early age that I couldn't, but from reading all 16 or so pages of this thread I have been given a small glimpse of hope.

I have always hoped I could sign myself up for the integrated approach to become a First Officer however even after reading most of the posts I am slightly miffed.:confused:

I have a question..... If I for example traveled abroad to Germany or the likes to obtain my Class 1 medical and got it converted if I may to the correct kind for the UK how long is it valid for? If I were to fork out 80K on an integrated approach, became a First Officer, what is stopping me from failing a retest whenever it arises later in my career? And in turn loosing my license? An apology if this has been asked before but I must have glanced over it.

Furthermore, regarding the legal action being discussed. I have some knowledge of the law and the way the courts work as I have currently rounded up an LLB and am currently a trainee solicitor. From what I gather forking out 250k for legal action is extremely risky. I cant for see the courts holding a sympathetic view towards us. I understand that the CAA is acting unfairly in terms of CVD pilots and students however the courts would more than likely make a policy decision in our case rather than a justifiable one. This happens only too often, the judges could make a decision for what they believe and then reason back wards. There would be a higher chance of sucess if the case went to Strasbourg, if it were possible to find a law firm with sufficient interest and confidence in sucess then were talking action!
In addition the CAA is definitely not worthy of a judicial review, nor would one ever be granted due to the CVD tests it supports. :)

[TelBoy]

Owenrules - in reply to your question about passing a medical and later failing retests after forking out a fortune, well the colour vision test only needs to be taken at your initial medical, so you will not be tested for it again. You can obvioustly fail further medicals due to other problems, but thats not what we are concerned about here.

A word of caution. The CAA thinks colour vision never changes so if you take a class 1 and fail - they will not allow a retest, but you can get only the colour vision test done.

Why not try the City Uni tests to see exactley what you are likely to pass and where, not bad for £75.

Welcome to the forum and I wish you all the best with your future flying.

[norton2005]

Hey people, my prescription for my contact lenses is -6.5 in each eye. what i was wondering is is there any way to get around the problem of me being half a dioptre out? or will the CAA just fail me?

[TelBoy]

Just thought I would like to share this with you all

16,540 CVD pilots in US and 1 accedent where colour vision is mentioned, have a read its interesting

http://wxap.grc.nasa.gov/review/2005/Sept_20/1-14-Latorella-color.pdf

[norton2005]

come on guys, has no one got any info on this?

[Bealzebub]

Yes. the CAA do.
Pick up the phone and call them.

[Creep Feed Grinder]

Norton2005,
Your contact lens prescription will be different to your spectacle prescription. You need to find out what your glasses prescription is. From memory I think shortsighted folk have a weaker contact prescription than for specs. If that is the case it’s not good news mate, sorry. Give your Optician a ring.

I’m long sighted and my contacts are stronger than my specs.
CFG

[norton2005]

Does anyone know whats going to happen to visual requrments when EASA take over? will they change anything or keep it all the same? and when roughly are they taking over?

[Radix]

Speedbird421,

Dioptre limits depend on the country where you will apply. However if you corrected vision is 20/20, the biggest concern for the medical examiners will be Retinal separation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinal_separation

The risk for this is increasing with dioptres and age...

[Beaver diver]

Had this on my PC for awhile, very interesting results, but I am actually wondering If anyone knows, 2 years later, has this thing moved anywhere with CAA and JAA authorities in terms of the new requirements in this field or is it still a "Status Quo" as It was and still is for the last 50 years?

http://www.city.ac.uk/avrc/members/j.l.barbur/JAR_colour_study.pdf

:ugh:

[TelBoy]

Does anyone know if there are ANY JAA states that will swap a class1 FAA medical for their JAA without the colour vision test?

[2close]

Nope.

It won't happen as it goes against JARs.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.

[TelBoy]

Thought as much - Thanks 2close

I'm trying to gather as much ammo as I can - A long haul I think, but will keep you all posted.

[Beaver diver]

I wish there would be some money involved in this thing all together, then they would jump on us like young rabbits in the Springtime, but nope, that won't happen.
This weird chick from CAA I was talking to, told me that I have to sent her my lantern test results from my country in order to back up my JAA class 1 medical in UK, but I said to her that i don't agree and that UK is a part of JAA, so my medical should be fine without defining it over and over again...
So now, I am waiting to drive a push back truck on the airport with my CPL JAA class 1 medical, no restrictions in order to satisfy local ideologists with some power and a good job position, ( not gathered by the years of experience, rather a "buddy line") who are totaly incompetent and shallow minded and have absolutely no passion whatsoever for this industry.

Adios,
BD

[corin100]

Now I know!
Failed the eyesight test for my class 1 because of " Esophoria".... first I've noticed!
However, this is a hereditary condition so I am going to have both my sons checked out and if there is an issue there we can work on it, I am to far in excess of limts to have eye exercises bring it back to normal.
My vision is fine though and I have been given a class two so I may see some of you if you happen to be taking a day off and fly cessnas.


Having worn glasses for some ten years now and had eye tests reguarly I am dissapointed with "supermarket" type opticians, as I had never been told about this condition before I shall now be going to a real optician ie. independent and I would advise anyone else to do the same.
So , here ends my chances, oh well!!!!! the rest of my medical was good.
:ok:

[2close]

It is not as simple as that. The CAA, if they are in favour of the results, then have to take the proposal before a JAA Medical Review Board and it has to be voted on by all member states, the result of that vote deciding whether or not the new tests are introduced within JAA land.

The CAA has only one vote and is probably the most lenient of JAA member states on this front so it is anybody's guess whether the new tests will be adopted by JAA.

The CAA is also trying to persuade the FAA into joining the game and accepting the new test. As a member of US AOPA I have already made enquiries via US AOPA / FAA and, whilst the FAA have no intention in accepting any alternative test at present, should they do so in the future anyone who has passed the US lantern tests WILL NOT be required to retake the new test, which makes things sort of interesting. If the FAA and JAA colour vision tests are standardised and a person already holds an unrestricted, pre-standardisation FAA medical then the tick-in-the-box with the FAA as far as colour vision goes should then be accepted by the JAA....or will it?

I still think that the authorities are missing the point and that all that is happening is that one set of irrelevant tests are being substituted with another set of irrelevant tests, which in some respects are more discriminatory than the original tests. I personally feel that this is a waste of 'public' funding and will not stop legal action being taken against the CAA for discrimination.

[TelBoy]

I feel the same 2close. The FAA system works. 95% pass the light signal test and there are 16,500 CVD pilots in US over 2000 of those ATP holders. Only one accedent that mentioned colour vision (Talahasse) and then fatigue was probably the major cause. (2 other colour normal crew!!).

I have unrestricted FAA and it Pi:mad: me off as I'm English and cannot work in USA and my home and family are in England.

More to come soon - I'm looking into my own chalenge.

[TUIFly]

Got today FAA Class 1,yahooooo!

[serpiente]

Hi everyone,
I have a vision problem too, although mine is not too bad. I have myopia on bith eyes, my prescription is :
L: -2.00
R: -1.75
....and it is pretty much steady.
I am thinking about having lasik surgery to correct this. Do you think that would be wise?If not, why?
I am in college at the moment and I will start flying in a year, but I would like to correct this before that.
I did my initial JAA class 1 medical in June 2006 , but that ophtalmologist there told me to make sure my vision doesn`t get worse until I am 25 or so, and I was 18 then. Maybe he was trying to say I should make sure my vision doesn`t get worse than -3.00 until a company hires me.
I really thought that that medical last year was the initial and on any medical after that I could have vision errors as far as -8.00, isn`t that true?
I also know that if i have laser eye surgery, I am going to lose my medical certificate for a year, but no bother, I won`t need it for a year , so I thought this would be good time to do something about my vision.
I know this situation isn`t that bad, but I want to be a pilot with perfect vision.
Anybody else wondering the same thing?

[Hawk]

serpiente, please re-read Post No. 283 above
thank you
Mods.

[biggles7374]

Telboy

I don't think so. The JAR colour study by J Barbour reports the results of similar anomoloscope tests and says that the JAR standard is a matching range of 4. If you look at the results this is inclusive of the first and second numbers, and not the difference between them. So as I understand it you have a matching range of 5 ie outside the range.

I also took the City Uni tests and I have a matching range of 8. (difference of 7).

Regards
Andy

[TelBoy]

Thanks gijoe,

At Aviation House they do now do the Bayne test - I have it from them as well as posts on this thread.

I have taken the City Uni tests, but they did not have the actual Bayne, but a simulator that does similar. I passed the first set, but they lowered the hew and I made mistakes in the next set, I really want info on what Gatwick will do.

It is interesting you say that they will refer you to City Uni etc. Not sure it will be any use for me as City have given me a report of moderate deuternomaly and say I will often be unable to discriminate red-green colour differences that would be within colour discrimination for a typical colour normal observer. I feel that sentance would be the nail in my coffin so to speak. (good news is my blue yellow is excellent!!).

The City Uni tests I took are aimed at their reserch. The new tests that the CAA will probably take will not be as simple as the CAD or PAPI but a whole lot of tests to determine your exact colour vision range. The CAA will then (with the JAA) have to decide the cut off point. My feeling is that if a red or green dificency is shown you will fail, as these are the most widley used colours in aviation. This is just MY OPINION of course.

Also if the CAA are willing to look outside their own tests - why will they not take FAA medicals and waivers into consideration. I have an FAA waiver for any class medical because I passed the Light Signal Test. This is a practical test - no altering hews etc, just distance of 1000 and 1500 yards from tower. There are 16500 CVD US pilots with waivers, 2000 of which have ATP - they fly in our skies daily with a good record, so can't be that bad.

Any how if anyone has actual experience of the Bayne at Gatwick, please let me know exactley what happens.

[biggles7374]

Telboy

Just reading over the posts again.

The Beyne simulator that you described at City seems to be nothing like the real thing. As I understand it from previous posts the test at Garwick does not have a demonstration prior to it and you are shown lights at one level of saturation / hue all the way through.

Hope this helps

Andy

[Ancient Observer]

Who wrote the JAA rules? presumably, CAA wrote them?

[2close]

Telboy,

Ask the CAA. I'm absolutely certain they'll tell you.

Failing that, read JAR-FCL 3 and the Manual of Civil Aviation Medicine, available on line at the www.jaa.nl website.

HTH

2close

[east_sider]

TelBoy - so sorry to hear that, I failed them all myself in January so I know what its like. If you can do the FAA route then go for it, and whatever you do don't give up and keep flying, even if its only daytime VFR in the UK for fun.

All the best
Ian

[2close]

Sorry to hear that Tel Boy,

But all is not lost.

You can still hold a Class 1 medical with Daytime and No Public Transport limitations only which will still allow you to carry out aerial work, i.e. crop spraying, banner towing, parachutist drops and flying instruction.

The only problem you may have is that you also need a CPL to be paid and a CPL requires 5 x hours of night flying but there must be a way around it otherwise the allowance of aerial work by the CAA would be a moot point.

If you are interested in instructing I'd suggest calling the CAA and asking them how you get around that problem.

Best of luck,

2close

[FAA fit / JAR unfit]

That is the correct attitude!! Don´t give up!!
JAA is not the only way and UK-CAA is not the last option for colour vision testing..

Good luck!! :ok:

[airwjo]

what i forgot is the telephone number:
+41-44-8232519
you won´t find any e-mail adress in the www

[2close]

Nick,

Look at this from an objective standpoint and play Harry the Bast**d in a strict devil's advocate manner.

Try to find a reason why these lenses should not be allowed in the cockpit environment, thinking of how they may interact with existing colours in daylight and at night, both inside (PFDs, Caution / Warning lights, Maps) and outside the cockpit (Runway and Approach lighting, PAPI / VASI, aircraft lighting).

Once you've identified a reason you've answered your question. The CAA will bend over backwards to try and find such a reason.

2close

[763Nick]

Unfortunately, I agree with "most" of what you say :) However for all those who suffer from CVD I do feel that they are being discriminated against quite harshly and in todays society I think this is very disappointing ( he says with his rose tinted glasses on) :8

I can totally understand peoples frustration relating to this and vision correction e.g. if you can correct distance vision, why not CVD. but i unfortunately feel that all people are doing is :ugh:

The aviation profession is a privileged one no question about it, but the CAA need to realise that they are the ones "treading on thin ice" I am personally aware of atleast 3 people who attended Med school with me, all had mild deuteranopia (red-green CVD) and all are now practising surgeons, and yet the General Medical Council who lets be honest, should know what they are talking about take certain types of CVD into account and allow people to practise medicine who suffer CVD

[2close]

Nick,

There's a PM from you in my Inbox but there seems to be a problem retrieving it - I don't know whether this is a permanent problem or a temporary issue
with the PPRuNe site or an issue with my Inbox itself.

Could you try it again please.

Cheers,

2close

[763Nick]

2Close, I think this is a temporary problem, as I can no longer PM anymore.

Nick

[TelBoy]

It is seen here that many after failing the UK colour vision tests at Gatwick have gone to other full JAA countries and passed their tests. I understand that the UK CAA will then change that countries medical for an unrestricted UK medical.

My question is - what about renewals? The CAA will have you under your CAA reference as CP4. When you go to renew a class 1 is there any problems? or would you have to go back to the country you passed the colour vision tests in to renew and again change this to CAA?

[2close]

The CAA will NO LONGER change a JAA Medical from another member state purely on the basis of having passed that member state's colour vision tests. They closed this loophole several months ago.

They will now only issue you with a JAA CPL including the unrestricted Class 1 medical if you have already obtained the CPL in another member state.

So if you fail the CV tests at Gatwick and pass them in another JAA member state you will also need to undertake the ground and flight training in that member state and get a CPL issued by that state - only at this point will the CAA consider issuing you an unrestricted medical. Once you've gone through all the hoops of obtaining the CPL from another member state all you're doing then is changing State of Licence Issue to your country of residence.

If you go to another member state first, pass the CV tests then try to change it to a CAA issued medical they will still put you through the extended Class 1 medical which includes CV testing.

Sorry to be the bearer of more bad news but I had the info directly from the horse's mouth, about 6 weeks ago.

[biggles7374]

2close, Is this correct?

It is my understanding, as you quite rightly point out that you cannot simply pass CV tests in another country and then ask for the CAA to take the results of these into account for a UK CAA Class 1.

However I also understand that you do not need to have say a German (or any other JAA member state) CPL/ATPL before the UK CAA will convert a full class 1 medical in another member state to a UK one.

So, if I haven't confused you already as I understand it you are able to convert a JAR medical to a UK one as an administrative exercise without having to have completed CPL / ATPL studies in that JAR country.

As always I stand to be corrected.

[2close]

Firstly, to answer Biggles, regrettably that is the case. The CAA cottoned on to the fact that persons failing their CVD tests were going overseas to other JAA member states, passing the tests there and applying to change those foreign issued JAA medicals back to UK issued ones.

So they slammed the door closed on it and will now only exchange a full JAA CPL complete with medical certificate from another member state for a UK issued JAA CPL plus medical (at which point you are only expected to undertake the Class 1 RENEWAL medical, which does not include the CVD tests - what they're doing I think is absolving themselves of any legal liability by slopey-shouldering the responsibility on to the original testing State of Licence Issue). Let's face it, that's what they are far more interested in these days than actual, real safety issues.

Of course, you can exchange the medical without having completed a CPL or the ground studies but it is now a little more than an administrative exercise and if you wish to simply exchange the medical they will require you to undertake the EXTENDED Class 1 medical which DOES include the CVD tests.

Windforce, I'm not quite sure exactly what you mean - could you be a little more specific, please?

[Blinkz]

This is strange because the last I heard of it the CAA were actively telling people who failed their CV tests to try another JAA state. I wonder what has made them suddenly change their mind on the subject. Its still perfectly legal and within the regulations.

[biggles7374]

2close

I would just double check your facts cause this conflicts with the information I have been given.

Regards

Biggles

[2close]

Hi Blinkz,
My conversation directly with the CAA was less than 2 months ago and I clearly understood that the loophole had just then been closed - it was related to me exactly as I have stated here. As I said, if there are any doubts please feel free to call them.

WF,
If you have a UK Issued JAA CPL with restrictions and go to another member state they WILL see those restrictions when you try to change the State of Licence Issue (SOLI).

You will of course require a medical issued by the new SOLI and it is standard JAA practice for one country's AMC to contact another's AMC; in fact I believe they are required to when changing SOLI. If you pass the new country's medical including the CVD tests then it should not be a problem - I would have thought the new country would simply issue you with an unrestricted CPL. But of course, when they note the deviations they may simply refuse as Deviations are peculiar to the SOLI and are not transferable - in fact the UK is the only JAA member state that permits Deviations for CVD.

Biggles, contradictory information from within the CAA - surely you cannot be serious, man!!! Note slight hint of sarcasm!! But I will make a point of checking this when I am down at Gatwick next week and speak to the people F2F. I will report back in due course.

[TelBoy]

As a matter of interest the Irish IAA will NOT change state on a medical cert either.

Looks like things are getting worse for us :(

[TelBoy]

colourblindgeek

In reply to your post, I also took the city uni tests last month. They told me that they would be sending data to the CAA at the end of April (not long now). However I was allowed a retest at Gatwick two weeks ago, and failed miserably. When I asked about new tests, they simply said that they have no intention of changing in the near future.

I would NOT put any hopes at all on the new tests. The impression I got from the city uni team and reading the papers they have produced seems like they are simply producing a more reliable method of colour vision assesment. The CAA are regecting anyone who is not seen as having "normal" colour vision - so in short I do not think the new tests will be of any use to the likes of us.

Great attitude - keep talking, keep flying.

All the best

[TelBoy]

2close do you know if you can just do the colour vision test abroad and the CAA to accept this, or do you need the full class 1 medical from the country doing the CV test.

Seems like if you pass the H W or Bayne abroad and the CAA are going to review it, you are going to need a whole lot of ammo behind you to give them a good reason to accept - anyone have any direct views from the JAA.

I guess this forum might see a bit more on this in the near future.

[mic747]

Hello, im in a position where i have a passion for flying but am stuck with a medical that restricts me to an Austalian CPL, valid in AUS airspace only, due to CVD, are things going to change in the future where the rules may get more leanient to colour vision where i may hold an ATPL 1 day? if not whats a career like in GA for the next 40 years? any response greatly appreciated.........:)

[east_sider]

You should start by reading the 19 page Colour Vision thread on this very forum here:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=229604

Good luck.

[Ww/W]

Mic747,

I live here in the UK and have been considering moving to Aus to get a CPL to fly. I'm a CVD and cannot get a class 1 medical here, thanks to the CAA (Campaign Against Aviation as we like to call them). The past 5 years have felt like this... :ugh:

[Ww/W]

I'm after a bit of help, if anyone can provide it. I know of an Australian AME here in the UK, who I'll do the colour vision testing with to see if I meet AUS standards. I also wanted to know of any FAA AMEs here in the UK? Are there any around the Fairford/Mildenhall USAF bases?

I'm trying to gauge whether or not a move to the US/AUS will get me anywhere career-wise. So I want to get the vision part of the medical done, so I can know exactly what chance I have of getting either Class1 or Class2+SODA etc etc. Cheers chaps.
Jon.

Edit. Found the list. http://ame.cami.jccbi.gov/amelist.asp

Next Q, will they have all the necessary equipment? Can they grant me a SODA? Sorry if these are silly questions, I don't know much about the FAA's ways.

[Yon Garde]

Relax, colour vision is not tested in a renewal. Your colour vision does not change with age.

Enjoy the rest of you training :ok:

[2close]

Quack, quack, oops!

Colour vision can deteroriate with age - it's just very rare.

[TelBoy]

Sorry Ww/W Ithink the AME list is here http://www.faa.gov/pilots/amelocator/

The other page will give you a script error

[TelBoy]

I understand that the spetrolux and holmes wright tests are very similar. Does anyone know the exact differences? Has anyone failed the holmes wright, but passed the spetrolux?

I have faile the HW at Gatwick and must say found it very hard.

All info that can be given on the spetrolux would be gratefully received.

[shaun ryder]

Just interested about what other pilots have to say regarding these sometimes annoying things in front of our eyes?

[obgraham]

There ya go again: another America-bashing thread!

Seriously, floaters are usually inconsequential, but occasionally they represent significant eye disease. If they are persistent, a thorough eye exam is appropriate.
_______
Graham MD, but not eye doc.

[gingernut]

Remember reading oChuck Yaegar being a little concerned about about mixing them up with fighter jets, but I wouldn't have thought they'd give too much concern to most pilots.

As Obs states, get them checked out, especially if sudden onset:)

Most people's are worse in bright lights and when tired.

[Loose rivets]

A few unqualified points, but you can trust me on these.:ouch:

Floaters can be so bad in bright sunlight that driving a car is impossible. In the evening they could be almost insignificant due to the lens being much bigger and the shadows not so contrasted. It is likely that the sufferer will find that they disappear almost completely within a few days/weeks.

Cut back on hard booze, and get good UV filters.

Sudden onset can be indicative of many things including Posterior Vitreous Detachment. In this case a perfectly clear eye can be filled with thick dark floaters within seconds. A bright yellow moon-like crescent--flashing to one side--is another clue of PVD.


Obviously, any sudden eye defect needs the attention of a specialist. Many hospitals in the UK have an emergency clinic.

[shaun ryder]

Thanks for that guys. I noticed after boozing they tend to be more visible, also above the clouds and in bright sunlight. I am thinking that scanning in an EFIS cockpit vs looking out across the bright sky magnifies the problem. I have had an eye test recently and they are healthy.

[ABO944]

And there was me thinking a "floater" was something you found in the toilet after several flushes !:ok:

[Desert Diner]

You also tend to see them when you are dehydrated.


I also thought this thread was about the "unflushables":ok:

[2close]

Mmm, 'tis obviously a common misconception as I was also wondering why Shaun Ryder was (a) spending so much time staring down the kazi and (b) why he'd lost the ability to operate the flush handle......

[Willows]

I've had one (I assume it is one) annoying me for at least a month now, if not more. It is not a "normal" floater like I've always had, it is darker, much smaller and more circular in shape compared to others.

I thought it was something to do with my contact lenses so I bought eye wash solution and washed out my eye and lenses numerous times but it is still there. Whatever way I move my eye, it's always there floating around after it!

After reading this thread, it really sounds like I should have it checked out?

:uhoh:

[east_sider]

With apologies for the thread drift, I'd just like to mention I finally got my first solo done today! Feels like this thread is my "home" on PPRuNe so I hope it merits a mention here.

Happy (daytime VFR) flying!
ES

[TelBoy]

Good for you east sider. I'm glad the CVD has not stopped you.

Keep flying and remember there are other option (FAA and other JAA states) should you want to go further.

All the best mate.

[shaun ryder]

Just to 'clear out' pardon the pun! the confusion concerning the floaters. This post is regarding the brown eyes in my head, not the one in my derrier!

Yes I have seen the well defined dark round one before aswell, both in the bowl and the line of sight!

An eye test is always reasurring to have if you are a pilot. I would not hesitate as it will give you piece of mind.

[Gingerbread Man]

I've had one small dot for as far as I can remember. Is this more of a problem as the impression is given here that they are supposed to go away?

[shaun ryder]

Unfortunately not. It is degeneration of the vitreous fluid in the eyeball. You just have to learn to live with them.

[2close]

Top man, East Sider,

I remember mine as if it was yesterday (nigh on 15 years ago now) and recall how much I talked to myself as I went around that circuit.

Keep at it - the rules WILL change, by compliance or force (armed - pointed sticks - insurgency of Aviation House) but they SHALL change!!!

Well done!

2close

[kinnie]

Help!

Have been poking around on CAA website, for JAR Class1 it states under eye function that

in excess of 12^ exo and 8^eso or 1^hyperphoria at 33cm will require further evaluation by en eye specialist at Gatwick

I am approx 3^hyperphoria (slightly over). Obviously i will need further examination, but does anyone know what the cut off would be? Should i just give up now???

Cheers

[kieranTsoarer]

I recently spoke to an aviation medical examiner who said that although my eyesight was out of limits through the CAA on account of my astigmatism (CYL), there is a possibility it would pass an FAA medical allowing me to fly in the USA. Any pilots under the wing of the FAA shine any light on it? Prescription:

R: +0.75 SPH -4.50 CYL 5 Axis
L: +2.25 SPH -1.50 CYL 1.70 Axis

[Fray]

They are extremely irritating and more so if you are young and/or have excellent vision.
An eye test normally shows that your eyesight is just the same as before and you need not worry (it did with me). They take the pressure of the fluid inside the eyeball as part of a thourough test (i forget what this is called, ocular pressure??)

[millonario]

Yon Garde, thx for that info

[ATPMBA]

Hi,
For a FAA Class I or a Class II medical you only have to correct 20/20.
You may want to check what the CAA wants for renewel because if you have a FAA Class I and apply for a CAA/JAA Class I they use the renewal limits. Your astigmatism may be out offlimits for renewal but check it out.
Best of Luck.
PS- Don't lose your dreams.

[TelBoy]

east sider, the FAA light signal test has a 95% pass rate. This probably means that all trichromates will pass. You have to have faith in yourself.

I DO understand the family ties. I am in much of a same situation - 10 year relationship and an elderley mother, now on her own after my father died a few years ago. However there IS work on an FAA licence in this country and very kind people have messaged me about contract work overseas - like one month on and one month off - gives you great time to spend with love ones and fly - and get a good pay day!!

It is never going to be easy. Even without CVD professional aviation requires dedication and is a long uphill ride, even more so for the likes of us.

As for other JAA states - why not have a few days holiday with your other half and take a few hours off to do the tests.

I have had a message from this forum from someone who it took 5 years to pass a test - he recons he failed everything going, but passed in the end and got an unrestricted class 1 - now that is dedication.

In the end, none of us can tell you what you should do, only you can decide that, you must go with what is right for you. Just remember we are all behind you. I know how it feels to fail the tests. I have been described as moderate deuteranomaly - probably worse than you, but I have the FAA letter of evidance to fall back on and that gives me hope.

All the best mate you are not alone in your feelings.

[Hawk]

East_ sider. You mention Australia and USA as moves and possible aviation career paths at one stage.

Unfortunately, I suspect with or without color vision, a UK citizen would have little chance to fly professionally in Australia. I'd imagine the same would go for the USA. You would need to research the Department of Immigration's identified job skills shortfall and if aviation is identified (which it isn't) the subsequent requirements and criteria for resident status to obtain work. About two to three years from the time of entry to the country.

Nevertheless, good luck with your color vision tests.

[kinnie]

Ok, I went to see an opthamologist here in Dubai with a fistfull of papers and forms showing the CAA requirements. My vision is dam near perfect apart from officially 2 diopters of hyperphoria (Caa limit is 1).

I called Gatwick and faxed through the completed form. The Opthamologist there looked at the form and called me back within ten minutes, which i thought was impressive!!!! They said that i should definitely come for the medical as the 2 diopters doesn't really matter, they want to test and see that i can cope with it. Any ideas what this means or what they will be looking for????? (they could ask me, I'll tell them i cope fine:) ). Will i just have to wait in limbo now until i go over to the UK in July? Very frustrating!

[pilotho]

I am just wondering if anyone suffers from this. It is the condition where there is a difference in myopia in both eyes.

I really hate having this as I might not be able to get a class 1.

my presription is:

L -0.75 -0.25 180
R -2.25 -2.00 177
.
As you can see my right eye is letting me down. I see fine with my left eye and I dont really need my glasses.

The max difference is 2 at the moment with the CAA. I was just wondering, if my much better eye was knocked down, then I would get a class 1! that means i would not be able to see without glasses but it would mean i would get a class 1. so weird!

[Phororhacos]

Technically it is outside published limits, but if you haven't already done so, ask to speak to the UK CAA's optometrist Mr. Adrian Chorley as there is sometimes a little more flexibility in the system than may first appear. If you have already spoken to the CAA (recently)then ignore this post.

[east_sider]

Thanks Hawk and TelBoy, I might be taking a holiday in the US this Autumn so I will try and take the FAA test then. Presumably there’s information on this thread on how to go about finding a place and booking in?

[Danielremon]

So from what I've read on the net the Anomaloscope should be adjusted yourself. Not by the Optician

[TelBoy]

east sider. From what I understand to get an FAA Light Signal Test you need to have a restricted medical (FAA of course). At any time during your training you can then take the signal test.

I'm not sure how it goes with the US visa and TSA now if you were there on holiday. I did mine with a M1 visa (TSA did not exist then) when I was doing my PPL in Florida (FAA PPL of course).

It might be worth phoning the FAA - remember the time difference between us and the US, they are very helpful. Also call the US embassy to see if you would need a student visa.

All the best - glad to see you are still fighting.

[Farrell]

I know that there is a VISION THREAD...but to avoid the usual suggestions from wannabes I was hoping that some of the vision experts can have a look at it for me.

My amblyopia has not affected my FAA licence (I have a class 1) - what is the big deal about me flying an identical (but non N-registered plane in Europe)

Flyin Dutch etc or any others in this area....should I go to the CAA with this, or should I hang back until I have a 1000 hours ME time??

Am also thinking about shelling out 2000 USD for a NeuroVision treatment package........

Results were:

VA right eye:
Dist: 6/24-2
Near: N18

VA left eye:
Dist: 6/6
Near: N5

Right Eye:
Sphere: +2.75
Cyl: -0.50
Axis: 130.0

Left Eye:
Sphere: +0.50
Cyl: -0.25
Axis: 70.0

Unaided Vision:
Right: 6/30-1
Left: 6/6

Vision is 6/6 with both eyes open

Interoccular pressure:

Right 15.0
Left: 15.7

BVD: 12.0

Binocular Vision: Abnormal (no measurable stereoacuity in TNO Test due to amblyopia)
Colour Vision: Normal
Visual Fields: Normal
Slit Lamp Examination: Normal
Occular Motility: Normal
Fundus: Normal

No other abnormalities.

(Optician states Rx not required)

[Ww/W]

:mad:

Just writting a love letter to the CAA. Quick question, do FAA CVD pilots fly widebody commercial aircraft into UK aerodromes? Ta.

[gijoe]

Yup, every day of your life because they have no restrictions placed on them if they have a FAA licence and are flying an n reg aircraft...even into EGLL.

The ice has just cracked..:}

[Ww/W]

Cheers gi,

Where's the bloody logic behind that? I cannot wait to read their reply :}

[TelBoy]

wf, I'm behind you. I also wish to do such a thing when I get my FAA CPL - probably next year.

I think if you have such PROOF ie another ICAO state licence and experience, that it is a good case for the DDA.

Only a word of caution. The UK CAA is a "bit" more relaxed than the JAA and after all it is the JAA standards they are administering. I can see if the s:mad: hits the fan, then they will do something like the Australians and we will have a UK CPL - only good for UK airspace (a BIG NPPL). In reality still VERY limited.

I feel that the JAA should be lobbied on this.

Any how good luck and keep us all informed. I will.

[2close]

I agree on lobbying but I think the target has to be the UK CAA and the UK DfT with a view to having the JAA implement new rules but also the argument must be made clear to EASA.

The JAA is not a regulatory body and has no legal clout whatsoever. You cannot take the JAA to court - you would have to take legal action against individual member states.

Whilst member states quote JAA this and JAA that these are merely agreed standards and the actual legal entity is the governmental department responsible for transportation, in the UK this being the Department for Transport. The CAA (a public corporation) is merely the watchdog for the DfT.

The UK CAA, if it agreed that the argument was valid, would have to put the matter before the JAA for review. If the JAA review board agreed and the rules were changed then this would be a new standard applicable to all member states........sort of.......any member state can file a deviation but that deviation is then only valid in that member state's airspace (e.g. you can fly commercially in the UK up to the age of 65 but not through French airspace where the limit is 60. You can fly commercially anywhere in EU where one member of the flight crew has an OML on his/her medical certificate but in the UK both members can have OMLs.)

When EASA comes into full swing the goalposts will move, their rules will be enshrined in EU law and it wil be a balls-ache of a job to get things changed. Now is the time.

Personally I would be happy with flying regional TPs in the UK only - it would be ideal for me - I'm not and never have been in the slightest bit interested in flying the big airliners but the Dash 8 etc, that sounds like fun and challenging. In the meantime I'll stick to instructing.

[TelBoy]

Here is an interesting doc from 2003 where it is discussed to swap FAA licence AND medical for CAA - What happend to this???

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_Med_LSST_(M)_Summary_2003.pdf

[2close]

As a condition of the reciprocal exchange the CAA probably tried to impose their OTT medical standards on the FAA who told them where to go, as they will with the new CVD testing.;)

[Dried ears]

If what
ATPMBA (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=54098) says is true:

Hi,
For a FAA Class I or a Class II medical you only have to correct 20/20.
You may want to check what the CAA wants for renewel because if you have a FAA Class I and apply for a CAA/JAA Class I they use the renewal limits. Your astigmatism may be out offlimits for renewal but check it out.
Best of Luck.
PS- Don't lose your dreams.


Then you are on a winner because:

JAR Class 1

The initial refractive error (correction) limit is +5/-6 dioptres. There is no myopic limit for revalidation/renewal. The astigmatism (distortion) and anisometropia (difference between the eyes) initial limits are 2 dioptres, but there are no limits for revalidation/renewal.
NOTE: contact lenses must be worn if the anisometropia exceeds 3 dioptres. (Extract from: http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=49&pagetype=90&pageid=531)

[kinnie]

Original Post

called Gatwick and faxed through the completed form. The Opthamologist there looked at the form and called me back within ten minutes, which i thought was impressive!!!! They said that i should definitely come for the medical as the 2 diopters doesn't really matter, they want to test and see that i can cope with it. Any ideas what this means or what they will be looking for????? (they could ask me, I'll tell them i cope fine ). Will i just have to wait in limbo now until i go over to the UK in July? Very frustrating!

Is anyone able to help me out and throw any light on this for me?

[Danielremon]

Does anyone know if you can go to Gatwick and take just the eye examination on it's own. I would like to just get this in the bag before I go further?
Can anyone tell me what will happen, it's the most daunting test I've ever taken. I would like to know what they will do.

[gijoe]

Daniel,
You can definitely take the eye tests on their own as their is no point in blindly carrying on with a Class 1 if you don't pass these.
State that you want the opthalmo tests first when you book an appointment.
G

[NoTimeToWaste]

Does "myopic limit" as mentioned on the revalidation/renewal page on the CAA website (link below) refer to shortsightedness or longsightedness or eyesight in general? My prescription is currently +3.25 in both eyes so im just into the "extended eyesight exam every 5 years" bracket. If there is no upper limit for revalidation, what does the extended eyesight test show? Im slightly confused and would appreciate any guidance :)
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=49&pagetype=90&pageid=531

[davidd]

Is it possible to skip the colour/eye test if you already have a Class 2

[planecrazy.eu]

A little advise required please...

I have used the same optician for half a decade, each year i go, each year my vision never ever changes at all.

I decided to use D&A a few months back, with shocking results as my eyes, according to them was half a diopter or more better than my long term optician. So with this, i returned back, they retested me at my long opticians and they said they did it wrong, so i went away disapointed as i was .25 over the limit with my one eye...

A few days ago i decided i needed to know once and for all, so i booked an appointments with 3 opticians, my regular one got back my usual results but the other two got back the same results which was within the CAA limits in my weakest eye by .25 diopter...

One of them said to me that my vision is corrected to 6/9, the other said its corrected to 6/6.

I know you need 20/20 or 6/6, so in the event i have 6/9 corrected vision, is there anything i can do?

I went to Ultralase a week ago to, which also got the same visual standards as the other two, so its sound to say my long standing opticians has lost me as a customer as three other opticians all getting the same cant be wrong (or can they)...

Anyway, Ultralase told me that i could have Lasik treatment, which they said initially i couldnt as the standards for Lasik at ultralase are within the CAA limits of what they require for a C1 medical, they said to me i could have Lasik but first i could have insisions that are designed to remove astigmatism? is this an approved CAA procidure? and they said i could have lens implants (IOL?)

I am now confused, i know my correction would be approved by the CAA, they have confirmed this, but they said i need 6/6 and in my lazy eye 6/9.

I am just wondering what i could class as a next step, or is the next step to finnaly admit defeat and look for a career else where?

Thanks for any help on this matter...

Oh, one last thing, dont laff to hard, but i have been reading about natrual vision correction, i am pretty much guessing that this is more in the mind and that all the testomonials are fixed or similar, but i was wondering if anyone has done this, heard of it working, or the likes?

ADDED----

I have just looked at my report, from Ultralase, they found me to have

6 / 5-1 RIGHT EYE CORRECTION
6 / 75+2 (MIGHT BE 7.5+2) LEFT CORRECTION

and my total correction to 6/5-1, so is that better or worse than 6/6?

[TelBoy]

Neo - welcome to "our" forum.

It is great to see that you are so inspired about flying and are willing to join the fight with us, good on you.

The City Uni is a great place to start as it will give you an idea about being tested for colour vision. Just be aware that they are doing their own tests for their own purposes and they are NOT the same as the tests at the CAA.

The CAA will ONLY accept their own tests and will NOT take into consideration anyone elses examinations. (maybe other JAA aviation authorities as you will have read in this thead).

A word of caution about medicals. The first medical you do with the CAA is considered your "initial" and is more strict than others - it also includes colour vision which others do not. If you fail an initial medical, as far as I am aware (correct me if I'm wrong please) you cannot take another initial anyware in JAA land and will therefore exclude you from an unrestricted JAA medical if you pass the CV tests in another country. Please note this is the way I UNDERSTAND it - I hope others will give their informative comments on this. However the CAA will do only the colour vision tests for £28 - a good chance to do the lanterns, and if you fail at Gatwick and then pass in another country all is not lost.

As for the FAA route - you stand a GOOD chance of getting an unrestricted medical there. They have a lot of methods pf CV testing and the Light Signal test has a very good pass rate (me included). You need a restricted FAA medical to apply for the signal test, which can be taken anytime in your (FAA) training. As for working in the USA after, well as you are aware it is VERY difficult. My daughter is a US citizen (an lives there) and I cannot live or work in the USA. However there IS work on an FAA licence. See below.

1) There is a new registration M for Manx in the Isle of Man which comes under the CAA, but will allow FAA licences. It is NOT for public transport though - mainly business jets etc, but I think we will see a LOT more of this one.

2) The FAA licence is well thought of in Africa and the Middle East - if you want to work abroad.

3) Maybe you could get work on an N reg aircraft in the UK (don't hold your breath though)

4) Look at the USA as your training ground - not for work. I did my PPL in the USA and loved it - will be going back ASAP to do my CPL, IR, Multi etc.

In short - if you are willing and deternined enough, there IS work and you WILL make it on an FAA licence. Lets face it even with an unrestricted CAA medical and brand new CPL IR, you will have to be committed to getting a job in the UK - it will not fall into your lap!!

Good luck to you mate. Why not get flying. Go to a school you feel happy with and take a few lessons (you do NOT need a medical at this point) and just get "into it"

[TelBoy]

2Close, I did the City Uni tests and they did NOT do the Holmes Wright. I have only seen that at Gatwick.

I think the City Uni have changed their testing as they told me they did have the Baynes, but not when I did their tests.

[Neo_RS14]

Hi 2close,

Happy to be aboard:)

Yes I certainly think it would be strange if they do not accept my City documentation should I succeed, maybe they 'have to' test me themselves due to some sort of protocol for the Class 1?? Not very accomodating eh, but, such is life.

With regard to the lanterns at City...She said the Beyne is gone, but they have the HW....so at least I'll get to try one of them (touchwood).

The more I think about it, the more it occurs to me that whatever new tests city have, they won't be introduced into the CAA testing for a long time yet. But, as gracious as they have been to some on here, maybe they'd let people who failed the current tests, try the new ones when they come in.

[TelBoy]

Hi Neo,

Let us all know how you get on at the City Uni and if the CAA accept results.

When I did their tests they did not have the Holmes Wright, but did have a simulator. It is a plasma TV that they use for the PAPI simulator and they also do something like the HW and similar to Baynes. I found the "real" one at the CAA a lot harder.

I'm interested that the City Uni are still doing these tests, as they told me that they were submitting their data to the CAA at the end of April, so seems a bit odd that they are continuing. It might be worth asking them how things are going with the CAA???

Any how all the best and hope the results are good for you.

[east_sider]

Does anyone know if it is possible to do the FAA signal light test in the UK? Presumably I could contact a UK based FAA medical examiner and see if that is an option, once I've taken a FAA Class 1 initial also in the UK - and failed the colour test of course?

There is a list of FAA AMEs on the website here:

http://ame.cami.jccbi.gov/amelist.asp

ps Neo - welcome to the club.

[TelBoy]

east sider

You need a letter from the FAA to authorise the light signal test, it is not done through an AME.

In short I do not know if it can be done in the UK, my guess is probably not, (unless it can be done at a US military base?) but it is worth phoning the FAA to find out the exact process. You do need a restricted medical though before they will authorise it.

My sugestion is phone the FAA and get it direct from them. Phoning is probably better than email, you will find them very helpful.

Oh and also you only need a class 2 medical for CPL in the FAA way - they have three classes. One for ATP, Two for CPL, Three for PPL. The light signal test gives you a letter of evidance to act as the colour vision part of the exam and is good for any class medical. I did a class 3 for my PPL and can now go for class 1 with the letter.

Please let us all know what they say.

All the best mate. The Signal Test is the best bet - 95% pass rate - even me:) then fingers up to the CAA!

[Neo_RS14]

Hi audimatt,

I'm sorry to hear you faild the lanterns...I'm getting a bit worried how I'll do, as so many people are saying the lights are so far away and tiny:bored:

But, at least you had a go, and I'm sure you'll be fine to instruct. I can't remember exactly which ratings you need to be an instructor, but you'll be able to find out online, there's bags of info out there.

Good luck.

[2close]

Welcome to the loony bin Audimatt,

Good news! You can still be a PAID instructor.

The CAA will issue you with a Class 1 medical with deviations limiting you to No Public Transport (no passengers or freight) and Daytime Flying Only.

You can do an instructor's course on this and you can also do a CPL, however, all the night flying will have to be dual.

Your CPL / FI will thus be restricted to Daytime instruction only and of course it will be limited to the UK as the UK is the only JAA member state that permits a deviation for colour vision on a Class 1 medical.

2close

[AlexEvans]

Currently doing my NPPL and hoping to go on to convert to the PPL and then on to a CPL, provided I can get past the medical...

3.5 dipotres of asigmatism is holding me back...

Previously I (and the CAA) had come to the conclusion that LASIK was my only option but I have an interesting question.

Quote from the CAA:

JAR Class 1

The initial refractive error (correction) limit is +5/-6 dioptres. There is no myopic limit for revalidation/renewal. The astigmatism (distortion) and anisometropia (difference between the eyes) initial limits are 2 dioptres, but there are no limits for revalidation/renewal.
NOTE: contact lenses must be worn if the anisometropia exceeds 3 dioptres.


What is interesting to me is that someone mentioned above that if you already have an FAA class 1 medical then the CAA apply the renewal limits to your initial class 1 application. This would mean no limits apply!?

Surely this is too good to be true???

If someone knows for sure that the CAA apply renewal limits to your initial CAA class 1 medical examination if you already have an FAA class 1 then please let me/us know.

If this is the case then I'll be off to get my FAA class 1, presumably with no problems despite the fact that I do not intend to get any FAA licences, then get the previously unobtainable CAA class 1.

Surely this is too good to be true?

I will be a low hour NPPL holder, not an experienced FAA ATPL.

[TelBoy]

audimatt,

I'm sure 2close will back me up on this, but NO you cannot be a FO with CP4 colour vision deficiency. You can only do instructing and things like banner towing, glider towing etc. You CANNOT take passengers or freight for reward. Also you are restricted to daytime VFR - not a lot of good for an airline even if the regs would allow.

On the brighter side, your attitude is GREAT - keep flying and don't let the b:mad: get the better. Try looking at other JAA states for CV testing or the FAA way. There are many posts in this thread about these so I won't go into them.

Just a bit of inspiration. I had a PM from one of this forum members to say he failed all the CV tests everywhere. It took him 5 years but he did not give up and eventually got a pass and an unrestricted class 1. An inspiration to me at any rate.

Good luck to you mate, all the best.

[2close]

Very interesting question guys.

Strictly speaking the answer is No, you cannot fly Commercial Air Transport (CAT) aircraft, i.e. fare paying pax or freight, with the NPT restriction on your medical and you are thus restricted to aerial work, i.e. instructing, aerial photography, para pilot, glider tug pilot, banner towing, crop spraying.

However, there is a medical deviation that exists known as an Operational Multi-Crew Limitation (OML) which is provided to permit CPL holders to continue to fly CAT ops. The definition is thus:

‘Valid Only As Or With Qualified Co-Pilot’ Operational Multi-crew Limitation (OML). This prevents single pilot operations, but permits multi-pilot operations, for either a captain or co-pilot.’

It is normally issued to CAT pilots operating multi-crew aircraft who develop a minor medical problem which would prevent them flying solo but allows them to fly as a second member of a crew.

What is interesting is that there is nothing in JAR FCL 1.035 which states that the applicant for the OML MUST be undertaking CAT operations prior to having the OML applied to his licence / medical.

So, if you are issued with a CPL to allow you to undertake aerial work, what is wrong with later requesting that an OML be applied to your medical to permit you to fly CAT multi crew ops, provided that the other flight crew member holds an unrestricted medical? Nothing as far as I can see.

Therefore, technically, you could have your CPL issued for instructing, etc. then later apply for an OML to be issued to permit you to operate CAT.

However, the OML would only be valid in UK airspace as the UK is the only JAA member state that permits Class 1 medicals to hold deviations with regard to colour vision.

Furthermore, once that OML has been issued you cannot thereafter fly as an instructor as instructing requires you to be PIC.

Another problem may be that the UK, by virtue of FODCOM 2004/08, permits CAT operations in UK airspace to be operated by multi pilot crews where BOTH crew members hold OMLs. It was concluded after deliberation that it was highly unlikely that both pilots would suffer a debilitating condition simultaneously. Again, this only applies to UK airspace. However, this could not apply to both crew members being CVD (as this is a permanent condition) and therefore it may be decided that the problem would be unmanageable and that somewhere along the line a CAT operator is going to roster 2 x CVD crewmembers together - this may be deemed too much of a risk.

Lastly, whilst this may be technically feasible I have never heard of it being applied.

Sorry for the long winded response but thought I’d best explain the scenario as thoroughly as possible.

HTH

2close

[TelBoy]

Neo

Sorry about your results - it was much the same for me. I know what a hard hit is is, but don't give up. Remember there are outher JAA states and yes you should go to Gatwick to do the CV tests.

Just a point to think about before going to Gatwick. Go to an optician and get your eyes tested. I did this after failing at Gatwick and have found that although my eysight is "excellent" according to the optician 6/5 in both eyes, my left eye has a .25 difference and suggested glasses for reading. I might well get these glasses and ask the CAA if I can have a retest as it did "blurr" the lights a bit. (not sure if it will make any difference - but who knows). Also a good nights sleep, healthy food, excercise etc to make you feel 100% (again everyting I didn't do).

Remember also the FAA way with the tower light signals. I have passed this and have no colour vision restrictions for FAA medicals of ANY class. It sounds like our CVD is much the same, so you would be in with an excellent chance there.

All the best and keep flying mate

[katsogr]

Hey all,I'm form Greece and I've been watching this forum for a long now and i have read most of the threads here, even the old ones in part one. As you guess I have a CVD myself and I want someday to become an airline pilot. I currently am at university studying but i have started already my PPL training.

When I found out that this would be a problem for my further training i went to a doctor (AME) to tell me about these and how it would affect me. He tested me at isihara plate where I failed almost all of them and then I did the HW (type A) and I passed. I found it quite easy. I did 2 mistakes in three runs, and I think those mistakes were because of my fear failing the test. what i want to say is that the AME I went was a very expirenced doctor and was previously an AME for FAA. she really helped me to Pass the test. I think that not being more than 2 meters away form the lights was decisive for me.

Anyway I have one question, now that I'm assesed "colour safe" from an APRROVED JAA AME will this be valid if i want to do my training in an other JAA country? and if no, if i do my training here in GREECE and acquire my fATPL, this will be valid in other JAA countries right? It would be very :} :\ :mad: :ugh: if not...

[audimatt]

Neo, Im really sorry to hear about you failing the tests, but theres no harm in going to gatwick. Like I said there really nice there.

I also made the mistake of not sleeping enough, and rushing round, getting stressed, and not eating.

Keep fit and alert, it might sound basic, and maybe, a bit obvious, but i wish i had.

I found the reds really clear, but the green and white where a night mare, they started to blur towards the end, but maybe if your more alert, you'll find it easier "on the eye".

How far are you with your ppl?

I have 23 Hours, had a interesting flight yesterday.

After doing spins, and VNE dives, we got back on the ground, after closing down, pulled the controls and the trim cable snapped, glad that didnt happen in the spin.

Loving the flying and good luck to everyone, with or without a licence, lets not let the fact we cant see colours get us down.
Even though i can see the papi's and runway, and nav lights, its just the tests say i cant, in a real life situation i can, sorry to waffle, i need to get it out.
CHeers for listening.

Matt

[audimatt]

Hi
Where are you doing your FI test?

Cheers

Matt

[2close]

I'm not telling you, Matt, 'cos I just know you'll turn up and run back and forth across the threshold bollock naked with a length of burning paper sticking out of your ar**, just to put me off on the flapless landing.:eek:

Well, let me warn you now that the prop can be used for more than just tugging the plane through the air.:E

Or even worse, all you ****** (he says lovingly) from this thread will turn up in tight lycra fluorescent suits with big pink pom poms (that should be interesting, trying to colour coordinate a bunch of CVDs) as the '2close cheerleader squad', lining the taxiway. Oooh, very scary!:yuk:

I'll tell you after the event!

[audimatt]

Hahaha, well good luck, and ill steer clear of your prop!

[kinnie]

Hi,

Really hope that someone can advise me on this.

I have a hyperphoria of 2 prisms at 33cm and 2 prisms at 6m. At 6m i am right on the CAA limitations, at 33cm i am 1 prism over.

I have been told by the CAA to come for medical assessment for class 1 anyway as they are looking to see if i cope with it (i think by this they mean if i suffer from or am likely to suffer from double vision). However, i also read that the 33cm limit is not as important as the 6m. Can anyone verify this for me? Has anyone else suffered from this and passed? Other than this my vision was perfect and well within limitations.

I am booked in for medical on 19 July, but am finding the wait between now and then agonising!

[kinnie]

Forgot to also mention that I have never suffered from double vision.

[east_sider]

Neo -

Sorry to hear about your results at City. I too had much the same experience. I went to Gatwick anyway, mostly to try the Beyene which is supposed to be the easier of the lanterns (I didn't take Beyene at City) but unfortunately failed it. Nonetheless I'd suggest you give it a try, if you don't you'll always be wondering.

Totally agree with what TelBoy says that overcoming this barrier is only one step, the training is long, difficult and expensive. I'd advise you to start your PPL, enjoy flying and if you've got the £50-60k invest it somewhere for the meantime and keep fighting this with the rest of us!

All the best
ES

[Blues&twos]

and my total correction to 6/5-1, so is that better or worse than 6/6?

Planecrazy, 6/5 is better vision than 6/6 - although I admit I don't know what the "-1" means.


If your other eye was 6/75 you would barely be able to see anything. I would think it's 6/7.5, although for me the distinction has always gone from 6/6 to 6/9 in one step without any graduation between....
:ok:

The first number is the number of metres away from the letter chart at which the standard eye test is performed (6m). The second number is the number of metres away from the letter chart that someone with normal vision can recognise the smallest letters. So if you have vision of 6/9, this means that you can just see at 6m what a perfect sighted person can see at 9m i.e. your vision is less than perfect. You can also have "better than perfect" - occasionally I have managed 6/5 with my right eye.

The term "20/20" is the same thing, only measurements are in feet.

6/75 would be pretty poor vision - what most people can see at 75m you could only see at 6m!
:uhoh:

[SAS-A321]

Last time I got my eyes check I got 6/3, which my doctor was quite impressed about. I have -7.00, so I cannot get a pilots license in Europe at the moment, but I hope it will change. So for now my dream of becoming a pilot is in the USA, when I have enough money and find a good flight school.

[TelBoy]

I was VERY interested to find out from another forum member that the CAA until December 2006 would give you a CAA class 1 medical on RENEWAL standards ie no CV test if you had an FAA CPL/ATP and FAA class 1 medical.

The info disapeared from their website last December. Does anyone have any up to date info on this? 2close you talk to the CAA a lot, maybe worth a dig when you see them next (oh and hope the FI went ok). I'm sure that many like me who have FAA medicals would be more than interested in this.

To look at this in perspective would actually show that our CAA would be acting on very "sensible" grounds by recognising another ICAO state aviation professional. I hope that they will.

[Creep Feed Grinder]

Planecrazy & Blues&twos

6/5-1 means, you could see all the 6/5 line on the chart bar one letter.

Still better that 6/6 though.

Cheers
CFG

[TelBoy]

Have just got hold of the old pdf that gives the process chart. If you had an ICAO CPL and class 1 medical you would need to do the "extended" revalidation, ie would not need the EEG, but would heve to do the FULL eye tests to initial standards.

I can see why they droped it now - it is only really an initial anyhow :(

Sorry if it got anyones hopes up.

[planecrazy.eu]

Well thats good news, if its 6/6 or better then thats all thats needed to a degree so i think i will take my test soon, as then thats the final answer i cant argue with. I will go round in Circles with opticians untill i hear what i want, least they will tell me straight, then i can get on and find another avenue in life, but i pray to god that doesnt happen...

[2close]

Thought I'd best report back to you bunch of reprobates that I passed the FI Test and have been to CAA Towers and had it added to my licence. Woo Hoo!!:) :) But had to part with £ 108 for the privilege as well as £ 475 for the flight test!:mad:

Now on the CPL and going well. I'm also going to be doing some unpaid instructing for a few weeks whilst doing the CPL.

So keep fighting troops - I am actual living proof that even those who the powers that be have deemed as unfit to fly commercially can earn a living from aviation.

[audimatt]

hey, well done !

WhOOP 2 u!

So what licence do you have now?

And your instructing, wow, i cant wait till i can do that.

What path did you take?

Instructing would give me such a buzz, the look on a pupils face when they make progress and sending someone solo..... wow.... its my dream!

Well done again

Matt

[Neo_RS14]

Congratualtions on passing your Instructor's test 2Close, great stuff!:D

I read in a magazine today, that was giving course details to wannabees, that for a class 1 currently, colour blind ppl will not pass, however emphasis was placed that this is at the time of press, and they were implying that its worth ppl regularly checking the current regulations for any revision of this....first time I've read something like that, but I think others have mentioned similar things.....doesn't take much to get my hopes up lol

[2close]

Cheers guys,

To answer Matt's Qs, I have a PPL with ATPL exams completed, therefore I was able to add the FI(A) Rating to the PPL.

I've held a PPL since '92 and between then and '96 built up 175 hrs then got taken out in an accident and didn't fly again until 2004 and have built up the best part of another 300 hours since then.

I started the ATPL theory in July 2005 and was studying part time whilst working but found it was taking for ever so I did a life evaluation and concluded that I didn't want to be turning my toes up and getting ready to meet the big man whilst whinging about not having done what I really wanted to in life so I binned work last September and sat the exams in Nov 06 and Feb 07 and managed to pass all first time.

I am presently undertaking the CPL (hopefully all done within another 2 weeks) and at the same time doing some part-time, unpaid instructing on weekends for a very busy FTO which cannot get FIs for love or money.

I have a full-time, paid FI job to go to once I have the CPL but will of course be restricted to daytime instruction.

The market is very bouyant for FIs and they are going to have to start paying proper dollar to keep them soon so if you do want to fly for a living pull thumb out of bum and get a move on. If there's any truth in Neo's post re: Class 1 medicals and CVD, you don't want to miss the boat - remember the UK is the only JAA country that permits deviations for CVD on Class 1 medicals.

Thanks again guys,

2close

Ne te illegitimi carborundum

[TelBoy]

Good quote 2close - don't let the b:mad: grind you down :)

First congratulations on your FI, I,m sure you will be an inspiration to your students.

Your life story should be an inspiration to all of us. It is very easy to say that CVD beat us, so we could not fly. The truth is that even without CVD, cosidering time, expense, exams, etc it is a long hard road, even for the best - so don't give up, keep going. There IS a living to be earned from flying, and yes we moan about our CAA compared with say the FAA, but they do allow deviations, so lets take advantage in the short term and look to forward long term goals by whatever comes our way!!

Again congrats 2close and I'm sure the blue (grey:)) book is only a short time away.

As for day VFR - well it has always been day, but before the JAA in say 1992 you could go IFR and now if you fail all the FAA CV tests you can still go IFR - I think also IMC in UK today ?? so CAA and JAA look at the world stats and do the right thing.

[east_sider]

2close - congrats on your FI.

In time I'd like to do the same and possibly be a part time FI, although its probably 5-10 years before I'll be financially set up to do this.

But do you think I should still go for a Class 1 sooner rather than later? Then at least I'd have grandfather rights should the CAA decide to stop allowing CVD deviations on Class 1 medicals in the future?

cheers
ES

[TelBoy]

east sider

My feelings are, if you can - go to other JAA states to try and pass their CV tests. Then if all else fails go and get the CAA class 1 with the restrictions. Remember EASA is looming and might be an end to CV pilots all together (who knows??). At least it gets you initial out the way, so should your eysight start going, or some other stupid thing then you have renewal standards. It is expensive to keep up though if you are not using it!!

Good to see yet another will not just give up - keep going mate.

[2close]

Cheers troops,

BTW, my AME informed me yesterday that EASA has to take over regulation of medical matters from JAA by next year.

Not seen anything from the CAA on that one; anyone????

[Blinkz]

Yes I knew that, if you read through the LSST(medical) meeting notes then its in that. In fact the LSST has now been disbanded. There will be no more changes in medical regulations until after EASA take over. The head of the CAA medical dept, Dr Evans has been made chairman of the committee who is over seeing the change from JAA to EASA.

Guess we'll have to see what happens!

[FAA fit / JAR unfit]

Congratulations 2close.. at the end I am sure you´ll find the way!!

My best wishes for you!!

[Neo_RS14]

whoa...EASA, eh. Another potential show-stopper. I'm just hoping that it brings in a more enlightened approach to CVD pilots, which will then be applied in JAA member states. I mean they must be aware of the CVD approach in the USA and Oz, of course they are...It really would be interesting to know what their take on those approaches are?

There are always the accident statistics of the CVD pilots in those two countries, which can be brought forth as a testament to the fact that we are no more of a risk than a pilot with normal colour vision...I'm adimant that this must be taken on board before any new regulations are introduced regarding CVD and class 1 deviations etc...

[Blinkz]

Neo, thats very true. But remember that generally everyone in EASA is just the same staff as JAA. I doubt very much that there will be any changes when it gets implemented. However the fact that the CAA is chairing the committee to change from JAA to EASA might be good news, maybe they will be able to try and push the new test city have been working on.....you never know lol.

[2close]

Hi Blinkz, good to see you back in these pages,

I have the new style Class 1 medical, of which there are now 2 types, the first is for Single Pilot Aircraft operations carrying passengers, the second type for all other aerial work.

This, my AME explained, is the new EASA system but how CVD is going to fit into this he wasn't aware.

I am a tad concerned as possibly instruction may be seen as such a SPA op with pax - I need to clarify this with the CAA.

Also, the current deviations for CVD on Class 1 medicals are applied by the UK CAA only so whether EASA is going to take this on board remains to be seen.

However, thinking the glass is half full, they may at long last be permitting CVD pilots to operate as a member of a Multi Pilot Aircraft crew, providing the other pilot has no deficiency, as in the current OML system for other medical conditions. Fingers crossed guys.

[TelBoy]

With the EASA just around the corner so to speak, it seems to have added hope and trepidation all at the same time. As the UK CAA is the only JAA state to allow deviations and to be fair to them, they have raised points such as swapping an FAA class 1 with CPL and some experience for a JAA class 1 and CPL only to get swallowed by other JAA states, I hope that the EASA will be more lenient for all of JAA land, and with Dr Evans in a prominent position – lets hope.

However it is necessary for the powers to be to be able to put a sensible case forward to increase harmonisation in aviation, allowing more tolerance while ensuring aviation safety and also that the individuals human rights are not compromised. This would obviously be a huge step in the right direction and one that there is now the opportunity to take.

Now for such a case as CVD to be put forward I feel that is necessary for us ALL to write to the EASA, Dr Evans and perhaps AOPA and ICAO. This is the only way that we can put our case forward. It MUST be done sensibly and professionally and put all the facts forward. Examples are defects in CV testing, states such as the FAA who accept that if you can distinguish the tower light signals you CAN distinguish aviation colours (of course you can – its on an airfield) and such satisfy the Air Navigation Order, while on the other hand the JAA are testing for “normal” colour vision and undermining human rights by unnecessarily moving the goal posts. It must be shown that states such as Australia and the FAA do NOT have accidents due to CVD and fly millions of hours each year. Dr Pape papers should also be included etc etc.

I feel that it should also be pointed out that someone will go as far as the European Court of Human Rights if discrimination is still allowed to exist.

These are just my thoughts on the matter any how. On a personal note I think we have to do all we can now to pass a test in JAA land somehow to get an unrestricted class 1 and if not get the restriction from the CAA and fight for grandfather rights with the EASA.

2close I see what you mean about single pilot ops and instructing. Seems odd that with the restriction you cannot take a C152 up with a passenger who is paying for a pleasure flight, but can if it is a “trial lesson” – just more BS I think.

Well let others post their thoughts on pestering the EASA and good luck to all of you.

[2close]

An excellent post TelBoy and one with which I agree wholeheartedly.

May I suggest that this is undertaken as a collective effort. One well structured, objective letter with multiple signatories (e-mail signatures would be acceptable) may have more beneficial effect than several individual, emotive, subjective approaches laden with threats.

The people at the CAA are very busy and don't have a great deal of time to go trawling through stacks of individual letters so the single, collective approach may be the better option.

In order to facilitate this I would suggest an initial meeting between as many affected CVD pilots (and wannabees) as possible, followed by the preparation of the letter for the attention of Dr Evans and a subsequent meeting with Dr Evans to discuss the contents and the way ahead.

I feel at this initial stage any mention of formal legal action should be avoided - lets try to get everyone on side and batting for the same team.

This is just food for thought and lets hear some rational comments. If agreed we should arrange the initial meeting sooner rather than later.

Cheers,

2close

[TelBoy]

I'm in on a collective approach.

Anyone else who will back 2close post here so we can make arrangements.

[2close]

Hi Troops,

Could I also suggest that one of us 'volunteers' to collate personal information and ideas in preparation for the meeting.

I would be more than happy to do this but am stretched at the moment with CPL course and skills test preparation. I will be happy to assist when I'm finished.

This may possibly be unnecessary but it may be an idea to start a new thread specifically for the purpose of these discussions / actions and to ask the Mods to sticky it to the top. It may make searching a tad easier bu we'd also need to make it quite explicit that it's not for general CVD discussions but purely for the discussions ahead. Just a thought.

Cheers.

2close

[Shunter]

You can count me in for that.

1) 2Close
2) TelBoy
3) Neo_RS14
4) Windforce
5) Shunter
6)
7)
8)

By the way, what do I log my "dual night rating" hours as? I'm presuming the "solo" stuff is P1/S?

[east_sider]

I'm in as well.

1) 2Close
2) TelBoy
3) Neo_RS14
4) Windforce
5) Shunter
6) east_sider
7)
8)

I agree with 2close that this should not be about formal legal action at this stage. Let's cross that bridge if/when we come to it.

[Shunter]

I really can't understand why they've got away with it for so long.. a mal-administered test of highly questionable relevancy, commonly failed by over 25%(!) of people with perfect colour vision (source: http://www.city.ac.uk/avrc/members/j.l.barbur/JAR_colour_study.pdf - worth reading if you haven't already)

Oh, yes of course, I do understand. The good old British tradition of "shut up and roll over". Meh :*

[Shunter]

Incidentily chaps, I know the night rating can be done dual etc.. but since the IMC rating doesn't involve any solo time whatsoever, is there anything to stop you getting the rating yet being restricted to flying under supervision? Just wondered...

[Neo_RS14]

Couldn't agree with you more regarding the tests, about the night rating, I have no idea sadly.

[TelBoy]

Shunter as far as I know (things have changed over the years) that the restriction states day VFR, so if you are a required crew member that is what it means. IMC is another strange thing I think, more BS.

I hope someone can correct me, but I would advise anyone who needs a definative answer to get it in writing from the CAA themselves.

Looks like the CVD "meeting" is popular. I can't wait to meet all of you. There is a LOT of knowledge and experience to be had from us all to present our case to the CAA/EASA. The EASA is the next step in the evolution of Europen aviation and I hope it can be that we all work together for the greater good of the aviation community. We all now have this opportunity so lets take it.

[Shunter]

I just wondered, because it's pretty widely accepted by our fellow colour-cripples that those going the CPL route can do the night-rating dual, get signed off as required, and the CAA seem to have no problem with this.

Since the IMC is done wholly dual, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to do the course, do the flight test, get the rating - provided you aren't P1 (in exactly the same way you do the night rating). I, for example, regularly fly with a mate (CPL/IR/FI), so surely I could fly IMC as Pu/t in those circumstances whilst holding the rating (and waiting for the current garbage CVD tests to die a long and paniful death).

PS. I've got room for 3 pax to be picked up en route from Leeds to wherever is decided...

[Blinkz]

erm not sure what you are all talking about this VFR only thing?

The CAA for ages now have been allowing CVD pilots to fly in IFR. The only limitation on a CVD medical is no night flight.

[Blinkz]

As far as I am aware the only limitation on the medical is no night flying. The old restriction used to be day only VFR however the VFR was removed and it is now only no night flying. I guess the only people to ask is the CAA.

[TelBoy]

If the CAA are now allowing IFR flight for CVD pilots they are following the FAA route. If you fail the colour vision tests in the US you have the limitation "no night flight and no color signal" They do allow IFR. As for the dual night the FAA PPL includes night training and when you get your PPL you can fly at night. When I did my PPL I had the limitation and did all my night dual which counted (yes I know it's FAA not CAA). I then passed the tower light signal test and have had all restrictions removed (from my FAA medical) If only the CAA would accept it:suspect:

[gijoe]

Team,

I've been in bat against the CAA a long time on this on - count me in and I'll bring what I can to the party.

For my part I am a CVD with an unrestricted PPL(A), Night Qualification and about 500 safely completed hours.

G

[TelBoy]

Figure that now makes it

1) 2Close
2) TelBoy
3) Neo_RS14
4) Windforce
5) Shunter
6) east_sider
7) Ads212
8) gijoe
9)
10)

Keep on comming

[Shunter]

Wow, I have to say I think Blinkz is right! My initial student medical did indeed say "day vfr only", but the one in my license book simply says "see license for restrictions", and the license simply says "day only". No mentioned of VFR-only at all!

[2close]

Whilst I am awaiting the actual document I have been advised by the CAA that:

NPT = No Public Transport

VCL = Daytime only

These are the medical certificate abbreviations used, which should appear on your medical certificate.

These are UK ONLY deviations and only apply to UK Registered aircraft AND only whilst in UK airspace.

There is no restriction on flights under IFR (which can be flown in VMC and IMC) but also there is no restriction on flights under IFR in IMC, provided you are suitably qualified.

However, if you are a basic PPL holder with no IMCR you MUST remain in sight of the surface at all times so no flights VFR in VMC on top of OVC cloud layers (unless of course you can see the surface 40nm away...:=)

However, as a PPL IMCR you can fly VFR in VMC on top provided you are (a) > 3000' and (b) 1000' vertically separated from cloud but technically you would need to change to IFR in order to descend through cloud. Whilst some climb and descend through cloud in Class G airspace without radar frequently I try not to do this unless I am working at the very least a RIS (and preferably a RAS) - you never know if someone else is doing exactly the same thing in the same patch of airspace as yourself and the only saving grace would be that you'd be highly unlikely to know anything about it!!!

TTFN

2close

[2close]

Just to bring you all up to speed on the deviations applicable to CVD –

JAR-FCL3 Section 2 IEM FCL3.100 ([c]) states that:

VCL – Valid by day only

This deviation can only be imposed by an AMS and only removed by an AMS.

The definition then reads:

“Explanation - This limitation applies only to private pilots and can therefore only be applied to a Class 2 medical certificate. This allows private pilots with varying degrees of colour deficiency to operate within specified circumstances.”

It is quite clear that, under JARs a Class 1 medical can not be issued to any person who does not meet JAA colour vision criteria. However, the UK CAA has chosen not to apply this particular JAR. It has filed a deviation with the JAA and issues Class 1 medicals to CVD pilots in order that they may carry out some forms of aerial work. The UK CAA is the only JAA national authority which issues such deviations.

The deviation NPT is not a JAR definition and has been applied within the UK only by the UK CAA but it means No Public Transport and refers to any Commercial Air Transport operation carrying fare paying passengers or freight.

So there endeth(-ish) the argument regarding VFR / IFR and VMC / IMC. As we can all now see, the limitation applies to daytime flying only and does not preclude anyone from flying IFR or in IMC.

Cheers,

2close

[abzyyy]

hi, alot of internet sites are saying that commercial airlines wont accept people with colour deficiencies... is this true? this is my only set-back... If I am able to get a CAA Class one, shouldnt that be enough? I havnt been able to get authentic sources with regards to commercial aviation. Wondering if you could help?:)

[abzyyy]

I know its possible for CVD people to get a CAA class one... but what about commercial airlines and their employment standards? Will they take on people with colour deficiencies?

[TelBoy]

You will NOT be able to work for an Airline with CP4 on your ticket. It prohibits Public Transport - so no paying pax or freight. On the brighter side you can instruct (by day) and tow banners and gligers and take paras. Might not be the best paying, but you can persue an aviation carear

[abzyyy]

btw guys. I just had a eye exam today at my local vision place, namely 'vision express' in hounslow. Anywho, they said i didnt need glasses and my sight was good: right and left both 6/6 unaided. But i do have a partial colour blindness.

The person told me to go to the 'Institute of Optometry' in Elephant and castle to do a colour vision examination. Heres the site http://www.ioo.org.uk/ and she sed its really high tech etc. Part of being colour deficient i guess is just to accept it and hopefully pass other tests to be 'colour safe' and therefore have an unrestricted class one med. This institute of optometry has all of these tests and it costs £35 (just phoned them up)... :) plus u can get copies of your report for £20 i think (it says it all on the site) so if you pass the other tests you can take that report to Gatwick as backup.

[balhambob]

I am shortly starting training in Spain and currently wear contact lenses. I have been told that I will need to carry a spare pair of glasses incase the contact lenses fall out when I am flying.

So I am going to get prescription glasses and maybe prescription sunglasses too.

Does anyone know if you can fly with prescription sunglasses - I was told they can cause colour distortion so maybe not??

I guess the alternative is to wear contacts and normal sunglasses ontop but if the contacts fell out (it does happen) I would then have to put the normal glasses in and would have the sun in my eyes! :ugh:

Has anyone come across this problem before?

[yoda1]

Hi m8,

I have the same problem but after reading the following thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77207&highlight=prescription+sunglasses) it would appear that prescription sunglasses are fine.

;)

[Mohit_C]

I wear contact lenses too and have glasses. I'm not sure about all, but at some ppticians you can have the sunglasses on top of the glasses, so that you can take them off or put them on. It's good in case you use glasses for the street but for flying you could put these sunglasses on. It's a bit like an "add-on".

[yoda1]

TBH the first thing Monday morning i am going to ring the CAA to ask them for their advice but as i understand prescription sunglasses are fine...:)

[stevieb1]

Guys

I've followed this thread with interest for a while now, being CVD myself.

Having been to Gatwick today, and failed the lanterns, I'm coming to terms with not being able to fly commercially. At least not for the forseeable.

Reading some previous posts, it seems pretty clear that an IMC is still possible. But can anyone say with any certainty that a day only IR is possible?

I will of course ask the CAA, although I suspect their answer will be no before they even know what I'm asking them.

By the way, I'm told that the alternative computer based CVD test should be online fairly soon - and we should all be given a further crack on that. If anyone's taken the prototype at city uni I'd be interested to know whether they were more or less succesful compared to the lanterns.

Thanks in advance.

[2close]

Yes Stevieb1,

You can hold an IR. The limitation imposed by the UK CAA is VCL which means 'daytime only'. It has absolutely nothing to do with VMC / IMC flight.

The situation is a little complex. VCL is a JAA deviation which under JAR-FCL 3 is only applicable to Class 2 medicals and therefore only applicable to PPLs. Under JAR-FCL 3 you cannot be issued with a Class 1 medical if you are CVD.

However, the UK CAA has also applied the deviation to Class 1 medicals to permit CVD pilots to undertake certain categories of aerial work by daytime only. This deviation is inextricably combined with a UK only deviation NPT which means No Public Transport, i.e. no fare paying passenger or freight commercial air transport work, by day or night. The UK CAA deviations are applied and valid in the UK only and only on UK registered aircraft.

So, with a CPL / IR / FI you could be a CPL / IR instructor, working in the UK and by day only.

Watch this space for some developments very soon and make sure you come on board.

[stevieb1]

Thanks for that 2close. You seem very well informed, I'll be happy to be involved in any way I can.

[2close]

Apologies for the 'teasing', Mark.

Some of us are putting a hell of a lot of personal time and effort into resolving this issue. Obviously, we want to ensure we get things right first time but being such a diverse group, geographically as much as anything else, and with our own very busy personal schedules, these things do take time.

Rest assured we are almost at the point of commencing our actions and I sincerely hope we do get the support we need from all CVDs.

Keep smiling :ok:

[Neo_RS14]

Good to see people are still monitoring/contributing to this thread. I can only echo 2close's comments, that these things take time in order to ensure the best possible output under the constraints of personal lives etc, so all we can do is ensure we provide our full support when the time is right, and that time is approaching fast....so keep checking in:ok:

Cheers,

Neo

[2close]

Gentlemen,

We have gone live with our campaign.

Please see the thread 'CEDAR - Campaign to End Discrimination in Aviation Regulation' and contact Neo_RS14 if you wish to be involved.

Please feel free to distribute the contents of the thread to anyone you feel can spread the message.

But please follow the instruction and keep general CVD stuff to this thread.

As soon as we have sufficient numbers we will contact all collectively with an update.

Cheers,

2close

[kherranz]

10.) kherranz

[Sagey]

I fly with prescription sunglasses. I am mildy short sighted so the type of frames that I could choose from was pretty vast as the lenses are as thin as non prescription sunnies. I normally fly with a pair of prescription Ray Bans, which have a brown lens in. I have found brown to be a good option as they arn't ridiculously dark. I haven't had any problems adapting from outside to inside the cockpit with them.

S

[soggyboxers]

balhambob,

I wouldn't get too worried or worked up about it. If you have to wear spectacles to fly your medical certificate will normall require you to carry a spare pair with you. I used to wear prescription varifocal sunglasses, but for some years now I have been wearing varifocal contact lenses which I find absolutely great. I still carry my spectacles with me in my little flight bag, but it means the range of sunglasses available is much wider. I work and fly helicopters in the tropics near the equator, so I have one pair of darker lenses for really bright days and another of lighter lenses for more overcast days. I personally prefer a brown tinted lens as I find it improves visibility especially when there's a lot of dust in the air. I have a pair of Oakley Whiskers which are nice and light and with then side arms which don't affect the performance of my ENC headset too much, and my lighter lenses are Serengeti drivers gradient lenses which I have had for many years and find brilliant. I often wear sunglasses for up to 7 or 8 hours a day and find both pairs comfortable for long periods of wear.

[2close]

Troops,

You will by now have noted that our CEDAR thread has been pulled.

However, the wheels have already been set in motion - we are moving forward at a rapid rate of knots - and there are numerous media other than this for continuing our campaign.

Heads up.

[Hookerbot 5000]

I was told my the CAA that grey ones that are neutrally tinted were the best and recommended so i have ordered myslef up a pair of prescription sunglasses to this spec.

Raybans .. awesome :cool: These babies are curved so even stop the light getting into the corner of my eyes :ok:

[soggyboxers]

Yeah, a lot of aviation authorities say that grey tinted lenses do not distort colours, but brown tints are still the best for actually enhancing visibility, especially in dust or conditions of lower light transference - hey but what do I know, just a silly old sod who's been flying more than a couple of years :bored:

Raybans are perfectly adequate medium spec sunglasses and perfectly fitted for any flying task.

[Mohit_C]

Just a quick question. Wearing contact lenses, I heard you need some letter from the optician saying that you have worn them (and can wear) them for at least 8 hours a day. Is that so? I'm referring to the Medical Class 1 test.

[novitch]

If you perform a Class 1 jaa examination in your mother country an they only said that you fail with some reasons, but you didin t received a "Notification of Medical Certificate Denial" for more than 3 years until now and in the meanwhile you perform in other JAA country the inicials exams again and you didn t meantion that you fail but you pass without limitations ...

In the next time you could like to return to the mother country and do again the revalidation class 1 , you need to say that you already had been denied an certificate????? or don t say nothing??

txs

[FlyerChris]

:D:ok:Please count me in!

11) FlyerChris

Hi chaps, great forum. I have been battling this restriction for the best part of 21 years!! I have been instructing for the last 19 years and have a JAR CPL/IR ME FI SE/ME 7000hrs. I'm currently earning a good living out of flying instuction but would dearly love to advance my skills and spend the next 20years flying airliners around the world. I've never given up hope. Like everyone else my medical is resricted to daylight non public transport flights and is NOT restricted to VFR; indeed i teach instrument flying on a daily basis under IFR. I also hold an Australian CPL which is unrestricted provided that flights are within Australian airspace.
I have pretty much failed every colour vision test in the book, some by a narrow margin. I have never had a problem with colours in aviation and regularly use the PAPIs as a back up on instument runways without any problems whatsoever. I even advise students with normal colour vision when they are not adhearing to the glidepath using the PAPI system, how bizarre is that! That just proves it all.
I participated in the City Uni colour vision test on behalf of the CAA and was diagnosed as a mild to moderate protanamolous trichromate. I found the PAPI test easy and quite practical.
The time has come for a change, a fair and just change that the residents of the USA and Australia have enjoyed for many years. Keep up the good work!

FlyerChris.

[world]

When I look in sky, it happens to me that I see small things, which look like bacteria. This has also happend to my friends. I am serious, does anybody know anything about it?

[Chucky333]

12) Chucky333

Count me in guys !!!
Its about time we made our dream come true !!!

[outofwhack]

I have had and failed every 'aviation colour test' ever invented and I left the UK 15 years ago after being denied a class 1.

I currently have an Australian class 1 medical restricted to Australian airspace only (and CPL only not ATPL) and have CPL(A) and CPL(H). Thanks go to Dr Pape when he took the aviation authority to court. I have been flying 24 years and never had a problem with colours except in the 'tests'.

The 'tests' use colours that are within those wavelengths that confuse us colour cripples. They are designed to fail us - dont waste to much time hoping to pass them. Ofcourse in real life these colours are not used in real lights otherwise we would have all suffered nasty driving collisions at traffic lights wouldnt we.

Now like the original criminal exports from the UK I am condemned to Australia
(which aint too bad ;)

[Chucky333]

Hey

I've got a great idea.
You've heard of heart/lung/liver transplants right?
So how about eye transplants !!!
Im sorry if this is a stupid comment, but my utter frustration is driving me to despair !!!
Its typical when my brother who isnt colourblind has never had any intention whatsoever of becoming a pilot !!!
But hey, thats nature !!!

[LJones]

They are wot some people call FLOATERS. they are cells which are formed inside the eye. Can be caused by retina detatchment although can be caused by other minor factors such as burst vessels and small knock to the head.

Cant fix them, I have heaps.
But you may want to get them checked out to see if your retinas isnt detachting, then that is a problem.

[Alicia.C]

Hi everyone!

I have a couple of questions if someone wouldn't mind helping. I have checked CAA's website but cannot find answers to these questions, and unfortunately the CAA Aeromedical Centre is closed over the weekend and I cannot get hold of my AME until late next week.

I recently went for a Class 1 renewal but was referred to an optician because the AME felt I may be slightly short sighted. I went to an optician the next day and yes I am now slightly short sighted but enough to warrant glasses or contact lenses for Class 1 purposes. I was asked by the optician to consult the CAA before purchasing glasses or contact lenses so as to ensure they are suitable for flying.

If I remember correctly from groundschool, I will be required to carry two pairs of glasses (not including prescription sunglasses). I presume carrying prescription sunglasses in addition to the two others is not required, but desirable. Also if I opt for contact lenses and wear those during flying, do I still need to carry two pairs of normal glasses, or does this reduce to one pair?

I am also a bit puzzled on all the options being offered by the optician, such as anti-glare and hard coating, tinting (light transmission factor and light absorption factor) and polarising lenses. I am told that polarising lenses offer 100% glare reduction and 100% UV protection, but if I remember correctly, polarising lenses are not suitable for flying. I presume tinted lenses are also not permitted, but that the anti-glare and hard coating service would be permissable.

One last thing, I presume the AME will not revalidate my Class 1 until he sees both the prescription and the glasses. I ask because the optician says the glasses could take around a week to make, and whilst obviously I will not fly, I wonder if the AME will revalidate my Class 1 on the prescription alone (and thereby mark my certificate) without needing to see me with my glasses on.

If anyone could shed any light on this, it would be much appreciated.

Thank you.

[Piper19]

So, VCL means daytime only! Oops; I tought it was "needs Vision Contact Lenses" or something, which I do wear. I did already a few hours nighttime PPL with an instructor, better warn him.
I also have "VDL" on my medical, anyone can explain what that means? I hope there are no other surprises for me.

[Blinkz]

VDL means you have to wear lense whilst flying, either contacts or glasses.

[777SandMan]

After serious eye infection I have 7/6 and 6/9 vision in my left and right eye respectively. The 6/9 vision can not be corrected with glasses or a contact lens. I am presently employed by an airline.

What is the minimum vision required for a class I and II JAR license?

Any cockpit crew flying who had a cornea transplant? I am interested in the vision attained after the transplant and the amount of time spent on the ground after the procedure.:sad:

[world]

Can floaters affect class 1 med?

[Ipaq]

Hi there - I'm not a medical practioner, AME or anything connected with the medical profession, just an ATPL holder of 20 years.

The AME should not need to see the prescription for your specs. - I've never been asked to produce one. As long as you can read the sight chart and pass all the tests at the examination, they should issue the certificate. It will be stamped with one of two things - must wear specs Or must wear specs AND carry a spare pair - it depends on the level of visual deficiency.
Contact lenses can be worn, but a spare pair of specs have to be carried in case the lenses are dropped and lost.
Tinted lenses, etc. are OK but don't work behind the windscreen of an aircraft due to the design of the windscreen.

[world]

Thanx,

why is military so strict?

[rick0]

Hi,

I've just been on the phone to my optician... bad news :{ The stuff like dioptric, spherism (oh I dont know - but those measurements) are fine.. but she said last time "I had trouble reading 6/6"...

crap :{

Im going this friday (and she said that they've got a new chart and "it looks bigger") but I suppose im trying to prepare myself for the worst... feel terrible.

So if I cant read it.. is there anyway at all?

Thanks

edit: is the american 20/20 any different from the 6/6 min. standard over here?

[rick0]

Apologies for the "bump" but perhaps people are not reading the this thread anymore?

But anyway - Is this "test" correct (if you follow the instructions for the calibrated height):

http://www.isyte.com/autopage.ink?colour=k&PageNo=322 (http://www.isyte.com/autopage.ink?colour=k&PageNo=322)

Would it give a fairly good idea?

Cheers :)

[whiskey390]

I had undergone Class I medical of DGCA and they have given me an ubfit certificate due to "Substandard corrected Binocular vision". But I have never done any sorts of eye surgery nor i have specs. What is this Substandard corrected Binocular vision? Even if I have this,how shall I correct this one? Is it serious?

[MAN-SQ]

Apologies if I have posted this in the wrong place - I'm not sure whether I should have posted this here or in the cabin crew section.

I have been offered a post as cabin crew. I have recently read that you cannot be colourblind as cabin crew, does anyone know if this is correct?

Apparently I am red/green colourblind - but I can hardly tell during day to day life!

Any guidance would be much appreciated,

Thanks

[Neo_RS14]

First I've heard of cabin crew requiring full colour vision:confused:

Just do your research as best you can, make some calls etc...I'm pretty sure that you'll be ok though, on what basis would you need full CV for cabin crew duties?

I know what you mean though regarding not noticing the Red-green CV, feel that I have fine colour vision....only lets me down in the tests really, otherwise I don't notice it. :ugh:

[TelBoy]

Wow look at this

http://www.connexions-direct.com/jobs4u/index.cfm?pid=64&catalogueContentID=666

and this

http://www.learndirect-advice.co.uk/helpwithyourcareer/jobprofiles/profiles/profile118/

and this

http://www.redgoldfish.co.uk/view_job_information.asp?gid=14

and again

http://www.hastings.ac.uk/courses/international/Air_Cabin_Crew_06-07_Ed3.pdf

Looks like welcome to our club. However I think it is one of the last things to come up - probably on a company medical. If they reject you because of CVD, get it in writing from them that you have been rejected for colour vision. Then write to them and get a written reply why your colour vision would make you unsuitable for the job - they will reply with the usual rubbish of course. I would then take the case to the DRC and see what they have to say.

NOTE: the DRC will probably try to fob you off as CVD is not as trendy as one legged lesbians (sorry to one legged lesbians!!) and they don't want to spend time and money helping us, but they need setting straight.

This is again just another stupid rule that needs sorting. If you take all the rules literally we would not be able to do ANY driving job - not even a delivery van or CAR, we cannot do ANY job on the railway (except clerical) - not even sweep the platform clean. Armed services are out, Electrician is out, now even cabin crew is out - how mad.

Who does take CVD? The Police do - they will take dichromates and give them special training (in recognising blue, i kidd not)

Gliding - they don't use colour signal and don't care a T*** about colour vision!!

Sorry getting into a rant. It does make me mad that we can do these jobs just fine, but the colour normals making the rules are just BLIND.

Any how good luck and I sure hope that you beat them.

[MAN-SQ]

Thanks for the replies - I will see how I get on - hopefully all will be well! I really don't see how it can make such a difference! :ugh:

[kinnie]

my experiences at Gatwick.
i went for my class 1 initial on Thursday, i suspected a problem of hyperphoria. i had already seen 2 opthamologists who had given me a prescription of 2 dioptres and 3 dioptres at close. i therefore suspected that i may not pass and aksed Gatwick if i should come, to which they said yes.
so off i went, saw the opthamologist and failed! i was extremely diappointed and more so due to the nature of the eye examination. at no time did the opthamolgist use any sophisticated equipment to measure this (like the two other opthamolgists i had seen did). He simply held a ruler next to my eye and waved a stick in front of me. he then used a piece of equipment that looked like it had been made when the Wright brothers were about. granted that this was quite a valid test though. However, upon failing me i really was diappointed with the explanation i was given. in the CAA guidance it states that anyone over the limitations for hyperphoria can pass as long as 'the fusional reserves are sufficient to prevent diplopia.' when i asked about a measurement of the fusional reserves i was not satisified with the answer and was told that it wasn't something that they measure. i really got the impression that it was just gut instinct, or how he felt on the day. Surely there should be some measurement to which they should be guided as to pass or fail.
At no point did i get the impression that the opthamolgist was any bit interested in helping me to pass. (perhaps i am a little more bitter because i didn't pass)! i was also told at the end when i queried the measurement that he gave for the hyperphoria that his measurement would be the most accurate out of all the opthamolgists that i had seen. i have to say i was not convinced, due to the nature of the test that he did ie measuring my eye with a ruler and waving a stick in front of me! i really didn;t get the impression that the opthamolgist was interested in whether i passed or failed. i was disappointed with this attitude as so many people have said on here that they really get the impression that the guys there want you to pass!
back to the drawing board now! it really is very difficult to get over the failure of the medical when it is all that you set your heart upon.:{

[hvogt]

Hi Kevin

The German civil aviation authority (Luftfahrtbundesamt) has published a list of all AMCs here:

http://www.lba.de/cln_010/nn_54074/DE/Personal/FliegendesPersonal/Flugmedizin/L5__LstFlugmedZentren.html

PM me if you need further help.

Best regards

hvogt

[Alicia.C]

Sorry to hear that Kinnie. I'm suprised the Opthamologist displayed such a casual attitude to what essentially is your dream, that is to fly. I believe there's only one Opthamologist at Gatwick. Have you tried calling them at Gatwick again and ask to speak to the Opthamologist for further clarification. For his advise whether there is anything you could do to pass a Class 1? You could also ask to speak to a AME there for his option. If you feel that the Opthamologist is wrong and you were not treated with the care you deserved, complain. Hang in there until the very end.

[TelBoy]

Maybe this one.

DLR - Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt
Institut für Luft- und Raumfahrtmedizin
Flugmedizinisches Zentrum
Gebäude 24
Linder Höhe
D-51147 Köln

They do apparentley demonstrate the Baynes test to you.

It has been said we should organise a bus trip around Europe AMC's and call it the sights and lights trip:) Hey have to keep smilin!!

[kinnie]

Thanks for that Alicia, he did say that i could have surgery to rectify but that they did not recommend it (i know they have to say that).
I think that i was most upset about the way that he told me that he would be the most accurate, and i focused on the bad news at the time, as it was extremely upsetting!
Anyway, not giving up, have contacted Moorfields hospital to get the low down on the operation. still undecided though as it does have a degree of risk to my vision!
not giving up yet!!!

[mike07]

I've worn glasses and contact lenses for about twelve years now. I am considering lasik eye surgery so I don't have to wear glasses/contacts any longer. I still want to do more research on lasik eye information before I go on with the surgery. Does anyone have any recommendations or suggestions?

[daveip]

I'm hell bent on trying to become a pilot. I'm from the UK and my eye sight is well over the limits for a direct class 1 medical certificate from the CAA.

Right -5.00 -3.25
Left -5.25 -3.00

I'm considering getting lasik to correct my eyes (surgery has given me the a-ok for wavefront with intralase surgery) and I know that I fall outside of the limits again for CAA class 1.

But I was wondering if it is possible to obtain an FAA class 1 here in the UK, and then revalidate to a CAA class 1 as there are no revalidation/renewal limits.

Any info would be much appreciated!
Thanks!

[Shunter]

I'd be interested to see those LVA, unfortunately the links on your site don't work.

[tingtang]

Hi

You can't get an FAA class 1 medical and then go for the CAA class 1 on the renewal standards.

I think you may have to have an FAA CPL to be assessed on the renewal standards and that may only be the case if you are just outside the initial standards. I suggest contacting Gatwick or going for the Class 1 and seeing what they say.

Hope this helps

Will

[daveip]

Thanks for the info. Did suspect that I'd have to hold some sort of license before being able to get the medical revalidated.

[TODALDA]

I feel great sympathy for all the young folk who post here, trying to somehow pass the colour vision tests when they know they are colour deficient. I would have loved a career in flying, but learned at an early age, due to colour vision problems, that it was impossible. Now at the age of 55 I am doing a PPL (with no night flying) and enjoying the whole experience, I went solo after 12 hours. We have to accept the hand we've been dealt in life. It may be very frustrating, but you cannot do anything about it, and there are other challenging careers out there and flying can still be an absorbing hobby. Don't go in to denial, don't get bitter, enjoy the parts of aviation you can.:ok:

[biggles7374]

can someone tell me whether when using the simulators above whether you have to put your screen 5 / 6 meters away before running the powerpoint slide show or whether the sizes of the dots have been scaled down so that they can be used when viewed from say 450mm away from the screen.

Help would be appreciated.

regards

Andy

[2close]

The other half tried them both at 4 metres. She has no colour vision or eyesight problems and she couldn't make out the H-W at all. But she could make out the Beynes except for the blue which she couldn't see at all.

So I think the answer has got to be that these have been adjusted for normal distance viewing.

Any way of checking with the designer?

[IO540]

I take it you have all read this comprehensive debunk of the need for CV

http://www.aopa.com.au/infocentre/topicdocuments/colourvision.pdf

[IO540]

Has anybody seen these? I popped into an optician to collect some sunglasses and they had a leaflet on a new type of contact lens which you wear at night, when sleeping, and it gradually corrects the shape of your lens.

It doesn't do much; only about 2 diopters of correction or less.

I don't need to wear glasses for my Class 1 so have no need for this, but immediately wondered whether this can be used by would-be pilots who can't get their medical due to being marginally outside the uncorrected vision limits.

The catch is that an "honest optician" won't prescribe this if your uncorrected vision is worse than about + or - 2 diopters. But in principle it should still work, if you can get hold of a pair in some way...

The CAA would probably like to ban this product but they can't because you won't be wearing it at the time of the test ;)

[IO540]

Yes, that was the product I saw.

The replies in the other thread are of course predictable. However, the vision doesn't (apparently) spring back to the previous state within hours of cessation of wearing these lenses. It takes weeks, at least. The whole thing is a very gradual process. So yes you would need spectacles made to work with the "new" eye properties, and continue to wear these lenses at night.

The optician prescribing the spectacles wouldn't know anything about it either.

Unless there is a different uncorrected vision requirement between initial and renewal - I haven't got a clue if this is the case.

[amityes2002]

Hi,

I am planning to go for my Class 1 medicals but 5 years back i have done my lasik laser surgery. i need to confirm whether lasik is ok for class1 medicals or not.

Please reply so that i can safe my money spending on class 1 medical if i am unfit.

thanks

[TelBoy]

Thanks Stevieb1, but I'm really looking for a FULL JAA AMC as I think our friends at Gatwick might take a little persuading.

[TelBoy]

Thank you for your replies. I need it to be a FULL JAA AMC and Holland or Germany fit in with other things in the near future.

Peter your English is excellent and thank you for taking your time in reply. I have the contact details for Zurich from a previous post.

[Shunter]

Tel, if you fancy a group mission, we can take the cardinal. I'm sure Rob would join us, so would be cheaper (and much more fun) to all pile in and do it GA style right into Dubendorf airport :)

[Ollie247]

Right this is my first go at posting, have been reading for a few years now and finally thought I better ask a few questions to find out a little info.

I'm not going to bore you all with my life story but lets just say my eyes are not great.

Have worn contact lenses for over 13 years now and have been trying various methods to try and pass a Class 1.

I'm currently using Ortho-k and it is very impressive, having a few problems with Halos but nothing apparently that cannot be sorted out. It has been truly amazing to wake up and be able to see clearly.

Anyway I digress, I'm curious to find out from anyone that has had Lasik or any eye surgery done, then gone for a Class 1. My interest is mainly about the report that you have to supply from your surgeon?

1. Do you supply the report from your surgeon?
2. Do the CAA need to talk to the surgeon?
3. Do the CAA still place a lower limit on renewals for surgery cases?
4. Any places that can be recommended for surgery? (Just a bit of a wild card but word of mouth is no bad thing)

So anyone with any experience of this please could you let me know and if there is anyone that wishes to know anymore about Ortho-k, I would be more than happy to help.

Thank you all for your help in advance.

[stevieb1]

Shunter, thanks for the advice and good luck in Dubendorf.

On the subject of getting a day only IR, I spoke to Adrian Chorley as you suggested on another thread. He had no idea, so I remain in the hands of FCL at the CAA, who've been pondering the question for 3 weeks so far...