VISION THREAD (other than colour vision) [Archive] - Page 2

2close

12th Sep 2006, 16:54

Apologies for the misinformation, troops.

The statement is on the AOPA US members page but on re-reading it there is an anomaly as it states:

"The best option for many pilots is to pass one of the FAA-approved alternative pseudoisochromatic tests. The attached sheet from the Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners lists the optional tests and requirements for satisfactory completion based upon the class of medical applied for. (Important note: The FAA no longer accepts The Farnsworth Lantern D15.) You can see the eye care specialist of your choice for the tests. It may take a few phone calls to locate the test you want to take. Ask the doctor to report the type of test and the results on office letterhead. Make a copy of the letter for your records and send the results to the FAA."

However, the Farnsworth D15 and Lantern Tests are two different tests and another article I have read suggests the D15 is not up to the job.

The FAA still states that the Farnsworth Lantern Test IS an acceptable alternative but it makes no mention of the D15 so I would tend to believe that the D15 is the test that has been withdrawn and NOT the Lantern.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/app_process/exam_tech/item52/amd/

Again, apologies for any confusion and hope this clears that up.

2close

grob103

13th Sep 2006, 23:14

After my appointment with City Uni for a full colour vision assessment back in July I volunteered to trial the new PAPI test and have just been back to do the tests today, this is a write up of my experience.

Five or six years ago I went to City Uni for an assessment after failing my Class 1; I can't recommend them enough.

Do you know if they're still looking for volunteers? I work just around the corner, and I have very slight protanopia, sufficiently slight that the only thing I've ever confused is the white and red lights on the Holmes-Wright lantern!

Cheers,

grob

ACIDO

23rd Sep 2006, 13:52

What about orthokeratology?
Do you know if this could be used to reach JAR initial medical requirements?

Thanx

Bye

ACIDO

Bad medicine

24th Sep 2006, 07:51

Hi ACIDO,

Try a quick search, like this one:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/search.php?searchid=539588

ACIDO

25th Sep 2006, 08:44

Hi ACIDO,
Try a quick search, like this one:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/search.php?searchid=539588

Hi Bad medicine, that link doesn't give any result!
Anyway I had just tried to make a search. but I did found nothing.

Bye

ACIDO:rolleyes:

brisdude

25th Sep 2006, 12:31

Hey all just a quick question i thought i better throw out.

Im living in australia and have a class 1 med but im also colourblind. i passed the "latern test" but im concerned that i may have fluked it because i have no hope on the ishaira(?) test which i failed, luckily the ishaira test doesnt count apparently. Just thought i'd ask, how often does a pilot have colourblind testing?
If you pass does that mean it wont happen again because theres nothing on my licence or medical that mentions it. Also are you tested as part of a flight screening? My father has been working for the same airline for 20 years and he has no idea about any overseas limitations.

Also im apparently eligible for a irish passport and was planning on heading over looking for a job after i finish my training, is this avenue now closed because of my colour vision? ive never had any "real world" issues with it when im flying.

any advice is very appreciated!

CVD

27th Sep 2006, 13:31

No, it didn't. What it did identify was that every single system on board the respective aircraft was not only dependent on colour but also used audio and lighting as references. In the vast majority of cases the QinetiQ report showed that colour was far from being important.
However, unbelievably, the CAA state that as the report is discussing colour vision this is the only criteria they are considering. Uncanny!
I was quite gobsmacked when I read their analysis (or rather disregard) of the QinetiQ research.
Very biased, I felt, but please read both parts (I suggest you read Part 2 first - that is very encouraging - then read Part 1 for some first class disillusionment).
Please make up your own minds.
2close
Can you provide links to the Qinetiq report and the CAA response-I've had aquick lookbut can't find them
Thanks

2close

27th Sep 2006, 19:02

Here are the links to the CAA Papers:

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=2407

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=2408

As I said above, I suggest you read Paper 2 first as this centres on the QinetiQ research, which is quite encouraging.

Then read Paper 1.

The one line I really like (and I am paraphrasing very loosely) "we know that there are several redundancy systems that permit identification of systems other than by colour, e.g, audio, flashing lights, but we are going to ignore all of them because we are only interested in colours".

What absolute rubbish. The whole idea of such redundancy is to enable persons to identify warnings, etc. by various methods. To only consider colour as a criteria is ridiculous and my interpretation of the QinetiQ study is that, so far as the cockpit environment is concerned, colour seems to be the least important of the stimuli. There are occasions outside the cockpit where correct colour identification would be more important but even these hardly seem to be critical to flight safety.

In any case, as I've already said, make up your own minds.

Cheers,

2close

JediDude

27th Sep 2006, 22:34

In the UK you are only tested for colour vision at your initial exam. Medical renewals do not have a colour blindness test. Not so sure about other countries.

ACIDO

28th Sep 2006, 09:12

How are myopia and astigmatism calculated?

Are they calculated together or separately?

For example:

the limits for CAA/JAR is -5 for myopia and -2 for astigmatism:
if an eye is -5 of myopia and -1 of astigmatism, is that eye is considered as -6 diopters (and then out of the limits), or is it inside the limits because the two components separately can reach the requirements?

Thanx

GoOd bye

ACIDO

Cosmo

3rd Oct 2006, 19:13

How are myopia and astigmatism calculated?

Are they calculated together or separately?

I believe that they are calculated together. So if both components are minus (-) then they are added to get the total refractive error.

From the JAA website (i.e the generic Jar-FCL 3, your country might have modifications):

JAR–FCL 3.220 Visual requirements
(b) Refractive errors. Refractive error is defined as the deviation from emmetropia measured in dioptres in the most ametropic meridian.

Cosmo

wannabepilot1531

4th Oct 2006, 02:36

I know that FAA's vision requirements allow for any vision aslong as its correctable to 20/20. Is this the same for a Transport Canada Cat. 1 aslwell?? thanks

JUZ777

6th Oct 2006, 11:44

I have read alot ( read all )of the CVD threads and am pleased to here that many of you are persisting and winning this evil ( read descrimitive ) battle.... I am a CVD (CP3) CPL holder in OZ with full class 1 and have an incredible Italian fiancee (read my ability to gain a working visa.. Yes I have had it confirmed). I am about to start my JAA ATPL study but live with fear that i may not be able to pass the CAA class 1 medical due to being colour deficient.....
As I understand the testing may be changing in the near future but i need to sort out this medical ASAP ie..end of NOV... I have read that some of you have had better luck in gaining your class 1 in other EU states and having it validated rather than just doing it in the UK.. I'm not looking for a free pass rather than trying to give my self the best chance of getting through. Of thoes of you that have had better luck in other EU states can any one please help me out with some contact details for a good AME. I will be arriving in London on the 28th of NOV and would expect to have had to have a booking made well in advance....
Any and all help very much appreciated
CHEERS..... JUZ777

WexCan

7th Oct 2006, 16:37

Hi All,

Some of you might remember my denial by the IAA due to esotropia. Just wondering if the CAA/IAA might pass a person who has had corrective surgery to bring the esotropia within the required limits? I have heard of succesful corrective surgeries that have brought the esotropia within the limits and improved the person's binocular FOV - I have had corrective surgery as a child but these have been only partly succesful due to growth etc. Does anyone have any experience or knowledge in this area?

Thanks!

Wex

DuffyDuck

7th Oct 2006, 19:01

Could you please tell me, how much your esotrpia is?
I "suffer" the same and get mine checked within the next two weeks.
The funny thing is, that I was tested for stereovision 2 weeks ago and were able to recognice three out of four pictures at the lang stereo test chart.
I want to discuss my eyes with the eyespecialist in Gatwick to obtain the madical finally.
Regards, DD.

WexCan

7th Oct 2006, 20:47

I don't have the letter to hand, but I have an inward and slight upward turn. You're right to get it checked first, I wasn't that smart. My main concern is whether or not corrective surgery will restore an acceptable binocular field of vision.

Bring the eye guidelines with you when you get checked out, and ask your specialist if they feel there are any "significant defects of your binocular vision".

DuffyDuck

8th Oct 2006, 11:19

thx for reply.
The thing is, that the jar´s don´t tell anything about the manifest strabism, only for the latent. Thats because it is very unlikely to suffer doublevision when you have a manifest strabism.
So i don´t understand why they can deny your medical just because of your esotropia.

WexCan

8th Oct 2006, 11:46

I couldn't understand either but JAR-FCL 3 does state that a person with "significant defects of binocular vision" cannot be certified, and an esotropia will affect binocular vision, and in my case stereopsis etc etc. While both eyes are healthy and my near vision and distance vision are fine (albeit with some correction which is within limits), the two eyes don't work together so there's a problem with fusing the image from the two eyes so I see the world in 2D (by the textbook, in reality apparently my brain has developed other ways to perceive depth but I still can't do those optical illusion things etc).

I'm hoping that if I have corrective surgery again to align the eyes and it's succesful, the fusion will develop and I'll have normal stereo-vision.

DuffyDuck

8th Oct 2006, 12:36

I can tell you, you will enver have normal stereovision. That is impossible. Steresovision isn´t a "eye- thing" but a "brain- thing". Your brain takes the images from each of your eyes an puts it together. If it doesn´t fit properly, your brain disables one image. Many people then get a normal functioning eye and a very weak one. in you case, you had an operation (as i had) when you were a child. cause of that, your brain could supress a part wthout supressing the whole eye. usually your brain developes stereovision in the first 2 or 3 years in your life. now its to late. operating now could even worsn your binocular vision.
I was lucky that i coul develop a bit of stereovision.
Ask the guys in gatwick what you can do about your eyes.

WexCan

8th Oct 2006, 12:42

I have heard reports of stereovision developing in adults, particularly with surgery coupled with orthoptics and vision therapy.

whitelabel

9th Oct 2006, 09:12

In England you need to go to Gatwick but I advice you to go to Holland.
Why? Because alomost all tests are available there. We got 3 different AMC's

http://www.aeromed.nl/ (Holmes Wright) Schiphol

http://www.aviationmedical.com/ (Anomaloscope) Hoofddorp

http://www.alc-srv.com/ (Copy of the Beyne test, but different) Utrecht

I advice you to go to Hoofddorp First. 2nd Utrecht. 3rd Schiphol.

Good luck

whitelabel

9th Oct 2006, 09:14

Sorry A little mistake.
http://www.alc-srv.com/ (Hoofddorp
aviation medical center (Utrecht)
GL

not the office jnr

9th Oct 2006, 12:38

sam109
I am in exactly the same boat as you. I have just come back from the opticians and found out I’m the same - am 2.5 dioptres, and from reading the CAA website, I thought that was me ruled out of getting a Class 1 – apart from the line that says “applicants who fail to meet the initial visual examination standards, but who reach the renewal/revalidation standards should contact…”, which is clearly how you have got yours??

Mine has also been the same for the past 6 years (it was caused by gouging in rugby), and I meet all of the other eye standards, but haven’t been for the full initial Class 1 experience yet.

I am going to give the CAA a call this afternoon, but would love to know more about your situation, as if you have been given a Class 1, then there is no reason why I shouldn’t either!

As for your question, just go for it mate, if your prescription hasn’t changed in 3 years (and I’m assuming you are young-ish) then why the hell not? Go and live the dream, and if your sight gets worse, at least you wont regret not going for it!

Jnr.

JUZ777

10th Oct 2006, 00:50

Thanks whitelabel, I appreciate your advice.

Chris-1234

11th Oct 2006, 15:17

Hi there.

Ive been reading this thread as i am soon to be moving to New Zraland and am going to be looking to hopfully geting my CPL but as im colour blind as ive been reading it may not be possible. Ive been playing around on the net and have come across a company in the USA who say that with corrective contact lenses or with glasses they can cure colour blindness, i was wondering wheather there are any restrictions on using these to gain a medical certificate on the understanding that these glasses/ contact lenses were worn when flying?

Chris.

2close

12th Oct 2006, 08:08

Hi Piotrek,

That does not sound like any JAA alternative test I have heard of and think it may be a national test (Poland only) which would only apply to Class 2. It may be accepted by the Polish aviation authority for Class 1 but you would have to ask them.

I doubt the UK CAA would accept it if it is not one of the JAA approved types of test but so what, get your CPL in Poland. It is fully recognised as a JAA member state and the licence would be valid everywhere.

I would be very interested to hear more details of the test.

All the best,

2close

Rogal

12th Oct 2006, 09:09

I would be very interested to hear more details of the test.
Something like that:
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7154/testsi4.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=testsi4.jpg)
My task was identify colours in corners(lights).

In next year I'm going to go on initial 1 class and I'm little disturbed... :(

Regards

wannabepilot1531

12th Oct 2006, 22:32

Alright heres the deal. I am 16 years old, live in Ontario and plan to go to an aviation university program (UWO, Waterloo) My vision is as follows;

UNCORRECTED - Right: 20/400 Left: 20/400
CORRECTED - Right: 20/20 Left: 20/20
REFRACTIVE ERROR - Right:-4.75D Left:-6.50D
ASTIGMATISM - Right: -1.75D Left:-0.50D

I understand that I am well beyond the vision requirements for a category 1 medical. And probably a bit too young to have LASIK or PRK done quite yet. So i guess what i'm really asking is should i go for the eye surgery anyway and hope for the best? which surgery do you recommend? if not, are there any other solutions for this problem?

Thanks in advance, and any advice is greatly appreciated.

P.S. If your advice to me is to give up, then please save yourself some time and don't post, i am determined to fly commercially one day and will find a solution no matter what it takes. thanks.

Aaron

JUZ777

13th Oct 2006, 01:22

Chris-1234 Ive been playing around on the net and have come across a company in the USA who say that with corrective contact lenses or with glasses they can cure colour blindness, i was wondering wheather there are any restrictions on using these to gain a medical certificate on the understanding that these glasses/ contact lenses were worn when flying?

As far as i know Chris here in Australia and New Zeland you cannot use any form of corrective lense for colour vision.. Sorry:( ... This is not to say you cant hold a licence, though it would probably be restricted in some way..

2close

13th Oct 2006, 08:39

And that is like saying that an asthmatic pilot cannot fly with his inhaler or a myopic pilot cannot fly with his glasses.

Whilst I freely admit that this needs looking at a bit closer (and I don't have the time right now) if the authorities cannot come up with a valid, scientific reason, based on absolute fact and not just the whims of the old boys club, then this would be highly discriminatory.

The authorities are skating on very thin ice vis-a-vis this issue of CVD and it is going to bite them in the backside very soon.

Watch this space,

2close

Chris-1234

13th Oct 2006, 10:04

Thanks for the responce.

As i dont know how colour blind i am as regards to a medical certificate i think the only thing i can do is to go along and get tested and foind out for sure before i make any decisions about scraping the whole idea.

Cheers.

Chris

2close

14th Oct 2006, 12:54

Chris,

I don't know if the same rules apply in New Zealand but in Australia you can hold a class 1 medical certificate with CVD and you can hold a CPL and fly commercially.

You may wish to check with the NZ authorities.

However, a note of caution, the current figures (and again I refer to Australia) are that there are 14,000 CPL holders not engaged in flying jobs so competition may be strong.

HTH

2close

in_visible_me

15th Oct 2006, 14:07

does lasik eye surgery affect me getting a JAR Class 1 medical?

thanks

etiennebeardmore

16th Oct 2006, 09:42

Hi there,

I just took my class 1 medical last Friday and passed on all but one thing:

While my eyesight is fine, the doctor told me that my eyes aren't coordinated enough (e.g. if i focus on a point and bring it in closer and closer to my eyes, there is a point where one eye goes off while the first eye still focuses on the point). Apparently this is to do with the muscles and I need to train them.

The doctor wouldn't give me much more information but booked me in to have this part of the test redone in 6 weeks time.

Does anybody know which exercises I can do to get my eyes working as a team in 6 weeks???

Thanks,

Etienne :ugh:

waterpau

16th Oct 2006, 10:31

not the office jnr,

Providing you have a PPL, are over 21 and have stability in your specs prescription for at least three years, the CAA should give you a Class 1 medical with short term deviation. When you obtain your CPL, providing your astigmatism is still within renewal limits, the short-term deviation is lifted from your medical making it a full, unrestricted class 1. I've heard that people have obtained the medical with a deviation without holding a PPL, but don't whether that's true or not. Give Gatwick a call and see if Adrian Chorley will look at your case.

sam109,

I'm in exactly the same position as you - there is a small risk that my astigmatism will get worse before getting the deviation removed, but the risk is small, and I'd much rather have completed the training and lost my medical than do nothing and live with the regret. If you can afford it and are passionate about a career, go for it!

Just one thing that may be of interest: I applied to CTC with my Class 1 medical with short term deviation and passed Stage 3 in June. Unfortunately they didn't fully understand the whole deviation thing at the time I applied, so decided to stop my application before I got to sit stage 4. However, they did say that if I had the deviation lifted after getting my frozen ATPL they would take me onto the ATP scheme; hope that helps anyone else who might be in a similar situation!

Good luck to all with getting (and keeping!) your medical certs - don't forget there's always the FAA if the CAA won't play ball!

waterpau

not the office jnr

16th Oct 2006, 11:09

waterpau
check your pms!
jnr.

phillipsmw

16th Oct 2006, 11:45

In addition to waterpau's post, if youve had laser surgery....if your pre-op prescription is outside the initial requirements then the deviation is a long-term one, not short-term. So the UK aircraft restriction remains on your medical indefinately, and you need to separately plead with the other JAA authorities for their permission.

This is due to fineprint in the rules... With laser surgery the renewal limits dont apply, even if you're going for a renewal!

This isnt the case for you, invisible me, because you are within the initial limits. Just thought Id add this for anyone in this position.

voloamilleallora

16th Oct 2006, 16:56

.......if someone lose his jaa 1 class medical (for example uk issued) but still within limits for a 1 class uk medical and during this period he is working for a company flying uk registered aircraft, can this person maintain his job with this company or automatically he's going to lose it??

waterpau

17th Oct 2006, 12:39

ceresale,

That's a tricky question. I might be over-simplifying, but as I understand it, if a chap loses his JAA Class 1 medical, then he won't be able to fly aircraft for remuneration on any of the European countrys' registers. That's on the condition that loss of medical was related to falling outside of JAA medical standards...

Whether the CAA might issue a restricted class 1 medical (restricting a pilot to perhaps flying day-time VFR commercially only within the UK, if there is such work) as long as they meet ICAO medical standards, I don't know. Anybody? :confused:

waterpau

lazyjai

26th Oct 2006, 08:33

HI .. Can anyone please tell me where i can do the Airfield signal light gun test.? I live in Vancouver Bristish Columbia now ......
I passed the Farnsworth test .. but wasn't able to pass the lantern test ..... I need to do the airfield signal LIght test because i am planning to pursue my career in Hong kONg . ...
i called transport Canada and my aviation medical doctor.... and they don't know any information where i can do that test...
Does anyone know the closest place where i can do the signal light gun test ..? ..

thanks YOU very much .

steve

Spaceghost

26th Oct 2006, 17:33

Hi all,

I've been having a good look around about vision and astigmatism is my pitfall.

I looked at 3 previous prescriptions from the past 2 years, 2 years ago my astigmatism was only -1.0, then 6 months ago it said it was at -2.25, and then about 1 month ago it said it was at -1.75.

As you can see this is very annoying, I'm going to get another eye test next week and see what it comes out as.

When you go for the medical, do they test your eyes or do you just hand them a current prescription? I'm worried that if I get a high street eye test it might come out as within the requirements so I go and cough up £500 for the medical and it is over.

I am only 22 so I am really hoping my astigmatism will stop getting worse now or at this rate I might be over the renewal requirements after I've spent all my money on training.

It seems like I have several options:

1) Wing it and hope my astigmatism is within the requirements on the day.
2) Get LASIK, which I don't really want to but it might be my only option to become a pilot.
3) Wait and see if the CAA expand the astigmatism requirements next year.

Tamesy1

27th Oct 2006, 10:57

Hey space,

Im in exactly the same position,(Astig 2.5) with much consideration i think im going down the LASIK route. However im only 19 and plan to get the surgery after finishing uni in a couple of years, so with a bit of luck the astigmatism limits may be dropped. Im writing to the CAA as we speak so il let you know how it goes...

Shaikh N Hoque

29th Oct 2006, 15:15

Hi,

I have class one medical by FAA have colour problem, so had to take test to wave that from my medical. When I convert my licence to Canadian they honer that. I have a chance to get a job in India, my question is they will make a problem on this? or they will honer this?

Thank you

Hoque, Shaikh

Blinkz

29th Oct 2006, 15:57

Read the HUGE colour vision thread just below and you might find some more information. It depends on how Indian licencing works. If they will accept either your FAA or Candian licence then you will probably be ok, but if they don't and you have to take another medical my guess is you will have a problem.

Ww/W

30th Oct 2006, 14:35

Does anybody know when the CAA will begin standard colour vision testing with the new systems developed with City Uni? I want to take the new test asap to see if I might just be able to get a Class 1 medical.

Chars, Jon.

Spaceghost

31st Oct 2006, 02:31

Today's eye test says I have exactly -2.00 for my astigmatism, the optomitrist said that it varies from optomitrist to optomitrist on how they assess the astigmatism as it is not completely acurate, some will put it a bit lower than it is and some a bit higher, I guess it does not help that it seems to only go up in .25 increments.

Anyway so I really am right on the border.

east_sider

31st Oct 2006, 12:51

Hi Jon

I volunteered to take part in the City Uni trials, as have a few people that posted on this thread. My personal impression from talking to the lady that tested me is that the trial will take approximately 1-2 years to complete, not for the fieldwork but also to analyse the results, draw conclusions and make recommendations. Then there will likely be another period of delay while the CAA consider the recommendations and eventually implement some changes. So I got the strong impression that there would be no change to the current class 1 medical colour test for the medium term. By medium I mean certainly more than 1 year but hopefully not 3 years!

There is also a link somewhere higher up on this thread to a Flight International article speculating on when the new test would be introduced, can't remember but they thought several years away I think.

If I were you I would try to get yourself on the City Uni trial, and/or go for their standard colour vision assesment (which you have to pay £125 for). Depending on how old you are you most likely don't want to be waiting around for years for the CAA to change the class 1 test. PM me if you want contact details for the City Uni person running the trials.

Having taken the PAPI test myself I'm of the opinion I couldn't pass it when introduced by CAA. My CVD diagnosis is "Moderate Protanomaly"

Shunter (see post above) was diagnosed as "Very mild dueteronomy" and he could pass the PAPI test, so if you go to City Uni for a full diagnosis now you should have a good idea if you could pass it in the future.

cheers

biggles7374

31st Oct 2006, 14:14

I read somewhere that the CAA hope to introduce the new tests by March 2007. Here's hoping cause I ain't getting any younger.

I think the longer timescale was for the ICAO contracting states to adopt the new tests as an international standard.

biggles7374

31st Oct 2006, 14:27

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/09/01/Navigation/177/208737/UK+review+of+electronic+colour+blindness+test+set+to+be+inte rnational+standard+as+pilot+vision.html

This article claims the new tests hope to be in place by the end of 2007, although I am sure I have read March 2007 somewhere!!!

waterpau

3rd Nov 2006, 16:04

Hi Spaceghost,

Congratulations on being inside the initial limits - here's hoping that the CAA medical chap measures you at the same level. In reality, I would imagine a degree of leeway is applied due to inaccuracy of measurement so even though you're on the border, you should be fine. Given your age, your astigmatism should now be static for the rest of your life and even if it does increase slightly,you should remain within renewal limits.

Good luck,

waterpau

Mo91

3rd Nov 2006, 17:15

Hello there
I am 15 in my GCSE year. I want to become a pilot. I don't know exactly how good my vision is and i don't need glasses. But i don't want to do physics at A level if my eyesight is not up to the job.
I would like answeres as to how hard the medicles actually are, how strict, and when i should consider taking one.
Any responses would be much appreciated
Thanks in advance

Lancelot37

3rd Nov 2006, 17:20

Mo91

3rd Nov 2006, 17:37

Ok. And if they said i have a slight eye problem, a very minor one, does it mean that i wouldn't pass a class 1?

Tamesy1

3rd Nov 2006, 19:43

MO91,
Go to the caa website and look up the eyesight requirements, print them off and take them to your optician, he/she will be able to tell you if you make the grade. However, being so young leaves your eyesight to changes, so keep your options open when choosing your A-levels, dont do Physics unless your good at it!
Good luck.

Mo91

3rd Nov 2006, 19:52

Thanks a lot. A great help. I'll be off to the opticians soon. Wish me luck!
:ok:

greglansing

10th Nov 2006, 21:25

Here in the states we can do the ATC Signal Light Gun test. I tried it today. I saw red fine but was kind of iffy on green and white. I need to practice some more to build confidence, or luck.

Has anyone seen a video of a tower shining an ATC Signal Light Gun? I know its not the same as the real thing but still wouldnt mind having it to look over.

Please post URL if you know of such a video online.

gijoe

13th Nov 2006, 09:10

Take a look at this thread on flyer:
advertising

I hope the CAA/JAA/EASA read this. I particularly like the bit about 'the pilots just landed anyway!'

G

crammy15b

13th Nov 2006, 17:17

Hi guys im new to the forum so i apologise if this has allready been covered. I am looking into becoming a commercial pilot however i had laser surgey 3 years ago.
If my vision prior to my laser surgery was beyond a certain level does that mean that i have no chance of being able to pass the medical. Also if this is the case how are they aware of to what degree the vision was.

Cheers guys

gijoe

14th Nov 2006, 05:38

Take a look at this thread on flyer:
advertising

I hope the CAA/JAA/EASA read this. I particularly like the bit about 'the pilots just landed anyway!'

G

Advertising is the stuff that attaches itself to my posts on this site !!!

Have a look at the 'other web site' and read about how Aldis lamps have been taken offline.

eject

15th Nov 2006, 01:07

Have a look at some of my previous posts. I was -8 pre-op and have met class 1 stds since having my surgery in 1998. Above (worse than) -5 pre-op and you're pretty well snookered as far as class 1 medical is concerned. I'd love to corrected but changes to policy don't happen overnight

derrick holmes

15th Nov 2006, 09:18

I had mine done in Brussels by a world-class opthal... eye guy and it didn't cost a fraction of that. I could check it out for you.
Could you kindly confirm that you were far sighted,and you now no longer need corrective lenses.
Regards,
Derrick Holmes

RoyHudd

16th Nov 2006, 07:42

aka anterior uveitis. Any expert opinions based on experience out there?

crammy15b

16th Nov 2006, 08:17

I had my surgery 3 years ago, I went for a checkup today and all is stable and fine. The problem that I have is that I was -8.75 Pre-op. I thought that this would rule me out however when I spoke to the CAA the young lady told me I should send my details in with a report from my surgeon saying that I am stable and have no side effects? Has anybody else come across this before, and if so what has been the out come?

Mo91

18th Nov 2006, 17:21

I have just passed a visual class 1....i need slight correction with glasses...:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

si_lud

23rd Nov 2006, 12:41

crammy15b

If you were -8.75 then that completely rules out a Class 1 medical, sorry! The UK CAA normally gets around poor eyesight by issuing a deviation to get past the initial medical (limits are now -6), and removing at a revalidation (still -8). With laser surgery, they cannot remove the deviation if you were past the initial (-6), although you can still fly UK (G- reg) aircraft with this deviation.

The EASA when they replace the CAA for medicals may remove deviations altogether. I don't know how this will affect those us of with deviations as yet.

I'm not sure you can even get a Class 2 medical, since you are outside the limits (-8), but don't quote me on that. You need to speak to the head guy at the UK CAA medical department.

Sorry for the bad news.

Si

miikey

25th Nov 2006, 22:55

hey all, okay i was gona make a new thread. but ive read this one a bit

Now let me get this Straight.

To pass a Class 1 medical my eyesight must be above -5 or -6 (somewhere there)
My eye sight is R -1.4 L -1.5, so does this mean im with in range.:}

Flight my fire

26th Nov 2006, 08:20

crammy15b
If you were -8.75 then that completely rules out a Class 1 medical, sorry! The UK CAA normally gets around poor eyesight by issuing a deviation to get past the initial medical (limits are now -6), and removing at a revalidation (still -8). With laser surgery, they cannot remove the deviation if you were past the initial (-6), although you can still fly UK (G- reg) aircraft with this deviation.
The EASA when they replace the CAA for medicals may remove deviations altogether. I don't know how this will affect those us of with deviations as yet.
I'm not sure you can even get a Class 2 medical, since you are outside the limits (-8), but don't quote me on that. You need to speak to the head guy at the UK CAA medical department.
Sorry for the bad news.
Si

Hello to all of you !

Si Lud i read your post. Is the new rule effective now for myopia ? ( - 6 diopters for admission ) in England ?
It was expecetd for November but in the JAA text it is mentioned an application for ( Maybe ) December ( NPA-28).
If so it is a great information.

Have a good day.

FMF

norton2005

26th Nov 2006, 19:20

hey everyone, this is my first post,

i've had an initial class 1 and unfortunately, have only been given a class 2 due to my vision meeting the renewal standards but not the initial standards. my eyes are -7 dioptres. they will now only give me a class 1 with deviation when i have a ppl and have turned 20, which is next year by the way. the problem is, i had always hoped to go to oxford aviation training but unfortunately, as you probably already know, you spend 5 months in phoenix. the deviation is only valid on uk aircraft and t won't be lifted till i do the ppl.is there any way for me to still attend OAT? the deviation letter says if i wanted to train outside the uk id have to ask permisssion from the relevant authority, in this case i gues thats the FAA. how would i go about seeking this permission? as with OAT you have a class 3 FAA medical anyway, is the uk medical relevant? i mean if i could pass the FAA class 3 would that be fine as id be using the american medical and not my own? and then when i get back it would become unrestricted anyway. any help with this would be much appreciated.

and secondly, these changes that are happening to the CAA standards, anyone know whats happening to the initial standards? ive heard the renewal standards will become unlimited like the USA but ive heard the initial will stay + or - 5. anyonw know if htis is true or if maybe the initial will go up aswell? any chance of it going up to -7?

thanks for your help guys

world

26th Nov 2006, 20:04

Why is military so strict on there uncorrected vision requirements?
If somebody can correct there vision to 20/20 (6/6) why cant they join the military?

2close

26th Nov 2006, 20:22

You can join the military with corrected vision.

Whilst I am tempted to presume you are referring to flying FJs it would help if you would confirm which arm and job are you specifically referring to.

MightyGem

27th Nov 2006, 03:05

Not sure which country you are from, but I think that you'll find that most Air Forces have far more applicants than they have vacancies for, so they can afford to say "Only the best will do".

airborne_artist

27th Nov 2006, 10:57

Loads of people can correct their vison to the reqd. standard, however, there is no guarantee that their corrected (with spectacles or surgery) will stay within limits.

There's no certainty that a person who makes it without correction will always stay in limits either, but they are far more likely to either change very slowly, or not at all.

I passed the UK mil reqs in 1977, and I'd still pass them today, though with spectacles I can see far away objects slightly better.

Why waste $millions on a high risk candidate, when in most countries, you have plenty of lower risk candidates.

Jimmy The Big Greek

27th Nov 2006, 16:08

If you are going to fly N-registered aircrafts you need an FAA medical.
Dont worry about the medical. The FAA does not have any diopters limits and the medical is MUCH MORE relaxed and down to earth than the CAA. If you look at the FAA website you can locate an FAA AME in your country and do it before you go to the states.

I dont think that the JAA will take away the diopter limits in the near future on the other hand if you already hold a CAA first class medical with deviation, I dont think that you need to worry that much even if they change the regulation since it will most likely only be valid for new "applicants".

norton2005

27th Nov 2006, 18:19

so what your saying is that as long as i can pass a FAA class 3, which is what you need they have told me, i should be fine?

o and jimmy, im greek cypriot, what part of greece you from?

shgsaint

27th Nov 2006, 21:15

Can someone please link me to the City uni site where I can arrange some sort of test please?

I've tried to find out where exactly I need to go but i'm getting lost with all the info in the colour blindness threads.

Just about generating enough cash now to be able to afford to do them and then perhaps the Class 1. :rolleyes:

Hopefully I can get it all sorted within the next few months and will report back if all goes well.......or if it goes as expected and i'm pants at the tests! :(

Cheers,

SHG.

benwizz

27th Nov 2006, 21:44

Here you go shgsaint: http://www.city.ac.uk/optometry/public_clinic/colourvision.html

sam_0_12345

28th Nov 2006, 05:47

If I was to get laser eye surgery done to my eyes would that hinder my chances of becoming a pilot?

norton2005

28th Nov 2006, 15:54

it could and it couldn't. providing the surgery goes well then not at all. i've heard of instances when it didn't go well and that could have an effect. someone once told me that a rare problem that could arise is not being able to deal with glare and that would hindure your chances, but risks are minimal, but i would go to a well established organisation that does it and not just the cheapest option. remember you do get what you pay for.

and secondly, you have to see what your prescription is first. i don't know the rules in australia but in the JAA if your eyesight was outside of the + or - 5 dioptres before the surgery, even if the surgery was fine, then you will have a deviation on the medical permanantly, and that would mean only being able to get a job with an airline which is in the country of issue. so, if your in the limits and want to have it, then look into it, but if your outside the limits trying to get in, i would say most certanly not. take the deviation route with your original eyesight becaue them it is lifted after CPL training.

natural eyesight impovers shouldn't go amiss either, i've heard alot of good things about them.

DJED

28th Nov 2006, 18:36

Hi all.

Just wanted to ask something about this colour vision thing. I went to the city uni today to have some tests. Holmes wright and farnsworth lanterns etc. I also had an anomaloscope test. My question is this, does the FAA/CAA/JAA accept this type of vision test? I have been looking around on the net but have found no definate answers.

Thank you

sam_0_12345

28th Nov 2006, 19:13

thnx for ur quick reply norton

2close

28th Nov 2006, 19:45

FAA accept the Farnsworth.

CAA accept both Holmes Wright and Anomalscope.

HTH

2close

shgsaint

28th Nov 2006, 20:15

Cheers Benwizz.

Hopefully I can get up within the next month. Might be tight due to Xmas but i'll see what I can arrange and hopefully it will go ok.

Cheers mate. :ok:

sam_0_12345

29th Nov 2006, 08:57

has anyone on this forum use natural vision improvement?

llanfairpg

29th Nov 2006, 13:26

Perhaps not but it makes you look!

Does your company charge you for the bi annual eyesight test (licence holders who require to wear glasses while flying)?

Our AFS says that all charges conected with medicals will be paid for by the company, audiogram, ecg but in a memo says it wont pay for the bi annual eyesight check at an opticians. Are there any airlines that do pay for this examination or we alone?

Meeb

29th Nov 2006, 13:59

Quite a few Opticians do not charge for an eyesight test, so that might be an option?

Having said that when I went to one of these Optician chains who advertise it for free,
as soon as I produced the CAA form they wanted to charge a fee... :uhoh:

NurseToPilot

29th Nov 2006, 14:01

Hello Everybody
Im only 12 hours into my PPL training and absolutely loving it... My plan is to complete this and begin my hour building so that I may continue on with CPL / ATPL training. I've had my Class 2 Medical Since 20th September 2006 and assumed no problems with it..
:mad:
However I've been dealt a hefty blow this week in the form of a letter from the CAA stating that I have excess astigmatism which is outside the limits for initial JAA Class 2 Medical Certification... However as I meet the requirements for renewal they have exchanged my Certificate for a new one with a deviation on...
:ugh:
This I understand and see that I can apply to have the deviation removed upon completion of PPL...
:=
BUT I've looked at the CAA website and feel really gutted to find that the Class 1 requirements for both initial and renewal are even more stringent.... I DESPERATELY want to become a pilot and feel really cheated that I may have to quit before I've even really started...
:zzz:
Any advice would be much appreciated
My prescription details are as follows:
:sad:
Contact Lenses Prescription:
Right Eye - Standard Toric Lens
BC=8.70 POWER=+2.00 CYL= -3.25 AXIS=20
:oh:
Left Eye - Standard Lens
BC=8.90 Power= -1.50 CYL= 0 AXIS=0
;)
Spectacle Prescription:
Right Eye - SPH=+2.00 CYL= -3.25 AXIS=22.5
Left Eye- SPH= -1.25 CYL= -0.50 AXIS=180
:ok:
If anybody can tell me what it means I would appreciate it. I am more than willing to have this corrected if it is in any way shape of form possible to do so.
Do ANY of the CAA "limits" have room for an allowance? (eg my Astigmatism being -3.25 and limit being 3.00)
THANKS
JONATHAN

norton2005

29th Nov 2006, 14:38

type in natural vision improvement into google and see what comes up. theres an ameriacn company you can order from which has all the eye exercises you can buy. but look around, remember that these people are commercial busineses so each one will look like the best.

brain fade

29th Nov 2006, 15:14

Where I work the company refunds this to you. Medical expenses.

niknak

29th Nov 2006, 15:16

Your frustration is completely understandable, but for advice, please go back to the CAA Medical Department.
Whatever your problem may be, if you treat them with respect, they will do their utmost to assist you and get you back to the standard you require.

I can speak from personal experience, if you do what they need of you, they will do their best for you, but you should bear in mind that they are the Regulator and technically, they are not obliged to do anything more than advise you of the requirement.

NurseToPilot

29th Nov 2006, 15:34

I've emailed them tonight regarding the matter and said that I am willing to do anything that is required of me to gain my Class 1 Medical so that I may procede to CPL after my PPL... Thanks for your advice... If anybody else can share their experiences with me I would appreciate some "pick me up" as this has come as a major blow to be at present.

waterpau

29th Nov 2006, 16:06

Hello NurseToPilot,

As you say, your right eye at -3.25 is the problem with the renewal limit being -3.00.

You might be aware that a new set of medical standards are about to be applied (1st or 4th Dec) which include new eyesight requirements on Class 1s. Dioptre limits for myopia have been extended, but for hyperopia they remained the same. Limits for astigmatism remained the same, -2.00 for initial issue and -3.00 for renewal. However, the wording has now been changed to allow the medical examiner to exercise discretion and allow a pilot with astigmatism of beyond 3.00 diopteres to be certified fit to fly commercially.

You mention a deviation on your class 2 that is removed when you get your PPL; the same thing happens with the Class 1 and a CPL. The deviation route to a full medical was an initiative argued by the CAA at the JAA medical sub-committee meetings to assist with harmonisation of medical standards across the EU.

There was some talk a few weeks ago about the CAA stopping medicals with deviations, but this may have been rumours. The CAA have said that they are not aware of any imminent changes that would affect their ability to issue deviations other than transition of licensing powers to EASA, which (I think) will not happen for at least 12 months yet.

Obviously I can't talk for the CAA, but you're specs prescription indicates that you're outside of the current limits for a deviation. It is difficult to measure astigmatism accurately (subjectively, anyhow) and so it may well be possible for you to get a specs prescription for your right eye which is -3. However, given that the new limits now allow some judgement on astigmatism at renewal, the CAA may be OK with 3.25.

Keep pushing with the CAA - I can understand how you might be feeling, but I persevered for 9 years from initally applying for a class 1 and actually getting one, all as a result of excess astigmatism. I spent most of my late teens and early twenties feeling disappointment that I would never be able to fly commercially, but I now have a chance. Don't give up. If the CAA say no, just remember that things can change.

Would be good to hear how you get on. Drop me a message if I can offer any other advice. Good luck :ok:

waterpau

NurseToPilot

29th Nov 2006, 16:15

Thanks for that... Its made me feel a little better... but I guess I'll have to play the waiting game with them now.

cheers

JON

2close

29th Nov 2006, 16:36

If you are a pilot flying an aircraft with EFIS the Health & Safety (Display Screen Equipment) Regulations 1992 cover this and whilst they do not relate specifically to aircraft the Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations 2004, Regulation 6, which applies to all aircrew, both flight and cabin crew, requires all employers to provide adequate health and safety arrangements for all employees.
The DSE Regs state:
"display screen equipment" means any alphanumeric or graphic display
screen, regardless of the display process involved.
IIRC, ATC Radar operators are specifically mentioned in the guidance document L28 but I am certain these regulations would also apply to EFIS operators, however, coal powered aircraft with iron dials are a different story.
The CAWTR 2004 would then refer back to Reg 5 of the DSE Regs, which entitles any person, being a display screen equipment 'user', i.e. an employer using display screen equipment for a significant part of the working day, to undertake eye examinations at suitable intervals (usually every 2 years).
Section 9 of the Health & Safety at Work Act 1974 expressly forbids any employer from levying or permitting to be levied any charge against an employee for anything done in the course of his employment which is connected with his health and/or safety.
Eye tests are normally done by larger companies under Eye Voucher schemes but smaller companies just reimburse the examinee the cost. The cost of any spectacles is also required to be met by the company - this only extends to the basic specs; any special frames, etc. have to be paid for by the examinee.
If a company required any individual to have more frequent eye tests owing to a stipulation in any Ops Manual, I believe that these tests would also be covered under the DSE Regs and the company responsible for the costs.
If you are in doubt, check with the CAA's health and safety adviser who is responsible for the regulation and enforcement of this area, e-mail at [email protected] or check with your own company's H&S Manager.
HTH
2close

ghost_rider20

29th Nov 2006, 23:20

Hi i wonder if anyone can help solve this puzzle?:ugh:

Am currently working towards my PPL, and looking to start ATPL g/school next summer, and going the whole hog!!
I had my class 2 medical done about 2 months ago, and everything was fine, apart from my right eye being a little bit weaker than my left.
The CAA doctor told me that, due to this it would restrict me from gaining a class 1 medical certificate, and would have to get glasses or contact lenses e.c.t
But today i went into vision express for an eye test, and they carried out various tests, of which all were fine, they could see my right eye was slightly weaker, but they said my vision is better than 20/20 both eyes, and both can resolve as much detail when one eye is covered up???

They said that they could see NO reason why i wouldn't be able to gain a class 1, so why when i had my class 2 done, was i told that i wouldn't pass a class 1 becuase of my right eye??

Any help would be much appreciated :ok:

Lee

jondc9

29th Nov 2006, 23:21

increasingly PPRUNE should be known by another name, more consistent with the point of view of the european and UK pilot.

By the way, in the USA the same physician who takes your blood pressure also checks your vision for the FAA required medical certificate.

he also takes an EKG ( ecg to some)

checks your ears

has you hop up and down on one leg

and all that jazz.

And we have to pay for it ourselves at my major airline. For a first class (captain requires) the cost can range up to 130 US dollars every 6 months. It takes less than half an hour assuming you have had some water to drink prior to arrival. ;-)

llanfairpg

30th Nov 2006, 02:03

Excellent stuff, obviously unknown to BALPA

2close

30th Nov 2006, 08:24

Ghost Rider,

It sounds like the AME may have got this wrong. AME's are not eye specialists, unlike the optometrist.

The best way to solve this would be to go to Gatwick and have your Class 1 medical.

You should really do this before undertaking any advanced training, including ATPL GS, otherwise, if the medical turns up something you were unaware of you may be burning a large amount of cash for nothing.

You will have to pay for the medical up front but you can ask for the eye test first and if you fail that you can stop the medical there and then and be reimbursed the fee (less the eye test cost).

HTH

2close

biggles7374

30th Nov 2006, 12:46

David

A good post and it reflects my experience of the Holmes Wright test some 6 years ago. As usual the CAA does not seem to be using the tests in the manner that they were originally designed to be used, Holmes and Wright, whoever they were designed the lanterns but I am almost sure that the validity of the results achieved by a person would be based upon carrying out the test in a particular way. I understand that it is common in research that they would validify the findings and therefore the ability of the lantern to produce correct results using by prescribing the method in which the test is carried out. This is usually the method and 'rules' that have been used during research and hence those used to produce results demonstrating the validity of the test.

Anyway.......the JAR manual states the following in relation to the Holmes Wright lantern, and if what you say is correct the test certainly hasn't been carried out in accordance with this. An extract for the manual is as follows:

The Holmes-Wright lantern has an aperture size of 1.6 mm, corresponding to a visual angle of 0.9 minutes of arc. The light intensity is 2 000 m-candelas for demonstration, 200 m-candelas for daylight testing and 20 m_-candelas for testing in complete darkness. [The latter not used by City University or by the UK CAA.] The lantern is easy to use. The examinee is placed in front of the lantern at a distance of 6 metres.
Five different colours are presented: two red, two green, and one white light stimulus in nine different combinations, each presenting two colours (which may be identical in some of the presentations). The 2 x 9 fixed stimuli are presented for two to three seconds each and the examinee must identify the colour of each without delay. If all colours are correctly identified, the lantern test has been passed. If the examinee makes two or more errors, the lantern test has not been passed and the examinee is classified as colour unsafe. If the examinee makes one mistake or shows uncertainty during the test run, the lantern test is re-performed by executing two consecutive runs of the nine presentations. No errors or mistakes are allowed during this second run.

I wonder what Mr Holmes and Mr Wright criteria were to claim the validity of the lantern? Bet you it is not the same as the CAA!!!!

ghost_rider20

30th Nov 2006, 16:53

Thanks very much 2close, what you've said is what i thought!! Im going to book my Class 1 medical a.s.a.p before i embark on further professional training :ok:

Thanks Lee

LastMinute

1st Dec 2006, 00:45

Spectacle Prescription:
Right Eye - SPH=+2.00 CYL= -3.25 AXIS=22.5
Left Eye- SPH= -1.25 CYL= -0.50 AXIS=180

I'm afraid this isn't going to help cheer you up, but...

You mentioned that your astigmatism is outside the limits. This prescription also shows excessive anisometropia. The difference between your eyes is 3.75 dioptres; the Class 1 initial limit is 2.0 dioptres, and the "soft" limit for renewal is 3.0 dioptres.

For reference, the JAA has now published Amendment 5 to JAR-FCL 3 (http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/606984.pdf) [PDF, ~750 KB].

llanfairpg

1st Dec 2006, 12:38

COLOR BLINDNESS TEST, DONT WORRY!

I was down at the CAA a few months ago for an unrelated reason. I was in the the doctors office who is the head man down at the unit.

He told me that the CAA will accept ant type of colour blindness test that is accepatble to any JAR country (apparently there a 3 types) He also logged on on his computer and showed me the City test which he said the CAA had paid for the research and this is the test they will eventually want to use and they want all the other JAR countries to follow suit. The new test simulates the colours/hues pilots will come accross in glass cockpit aircraft.

I havnt read all the previous posts so i am sorry if i have duplicated what has already beed said. This Doctor I might mention is one of the most helpful, friendly individuals I have met at the CAA and is very approachable.

So if you have a problem make sure you speak to him he also said we try here to enable people to get a licence not prevent them from having one.

So dont take to much notice of some of the negatives on here as with anything go straight to the horses mouth rather than the other end which appears on here regulary.

SEE you around!

G/A

1st Dec 2006, 14:40

Hi,

next week, i´m going to accomplish the H.-W. Test in Amsterdam at the airport. Has anyone been there and can tell about any experiences?

best regards
G/A

G/A

1st Dec 2006, 17:35

Hi, this might help you

"The Spectrolux lantern has twelve vertical pairs of combinations of red, green, or white lights, with two different intensities and hue of each color. The difference in luminance is relatively large in some of the pairs of lights, for example, white (413 cd · m-2) and green (27 cd · m-2), and two whites-the only large difference being in luminance (416 and 50 cd · m-2). A total of 2 runs of the 12 pairs were carried out in the same order each time, and every color had to be named correctly (as 'red,' 'green,' or 'white') to pass. No demonstration of colors prior to the test was given, but subjects were advised of the colors they could expect."

Taken out of this Text:
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/asma/asem/2005/00000076/00000005/art00001l

regards
G/A

NurseToPilot

2nd Dec 2006, 00:31

LastMinute

2nd Dec 2006, 01:02

N2P:

Your left eye correction is 2.00 dioptres (the spherical component alone) along the 22.5° axis and 2.00 + -3.25 = -1.25 dioptres (spherical plus cylindrical component) along the perpendicular (112.5°) axis. So the worst error for this eye is 2.00 dioptres. (That is the "deviation from emmetropia in the most ametropic meridian" referred to in JAR-FCL 3 3.220(b).)

Your right eye correction is -1.25 dioptres along the 180° axis and -1.25 + -0.50 = -1.75 dioptres along the perpendicular (90°) axis. So the worst error for this eye is -1.75 dioptres.

Your degree of anisometropia is the difference between the two worst cases - i.e., 2.00 - -1.75 = 3.75 dioptres.

I should point out that I am not an optometrist so I may be completely wrong on this. But this is what I believe the numbers mean. Sorry it's bad news for you. (If it's any consolation, I can't even get a Class 2 due to my short sight being beyond the limits. Looks like I'll stay a wannabe until they relax the limits a bit more...)

NurseToPilot

2nd Dec 2006, 10:08

oh well... i tried.

I find the rules rediculous... The whole point of wearing contacts/ glasses is to "correct" your vision... So if you can see 20/20 WITH correction where is the problem?

One would never fly without wearing his / her corrective lenses :mad: :mad:

LastMinute

2nd Dec 2006, 13:32

The JAA Manual of Civil Aviation Medicine (http://www.jaa.nl/licensing/manual_civil_aviation.html) gives some explanation of why there are limits. It's all to do with the optical effects induced by correcting lenses.

Chapter 13, section 4.3 "Spectacle correction of ametropia" states:
One of the reasons for setting an upper limit is the optical aberrations caused by correcting lenses. These optical errors increase with increasing lens power and towards the edge of the lens. With modern materials used in high-quality correcting glasses problems are most unlikely to occur inside the range of ±5·0 dioptres.

Distortion of the image due to peripheral angular magnification narrows the effective visual field.

The prismatic deviation gives rise to double vision in myopes and a ring scotoma in hyperopes.

In anisometropia, the refractive state is different in the two eyes. When corrected with glasses, these give a dissimilar magnification – a condition known as aniseikonia. The illusion created is particularly disturbing during the initial stages of wearing anisometropic spectacles; it is better tolerated when the glasses are prescribed at a young age. As a general rule, an anisometropia of 3 dioptres can be tolerated; if problems arise, a special evaluation as to the practical applicability is necessary.

Actually I think the UK CAA is keen to get the "irrelevant" limits abolished. But bear in mind that there are 32 other member states of the JAA that get to vote on the standards, and not all of them agree.

world

2nd Dec 2006, 19:51

In some Eastern european countries it is hard to get a class 1 even with small corection..... I guess Americans' are much more relaxed. You can even get
class 3 if you are deaf.

Does anybody know a list of medical requirements for other European countries?

world

2nd Dec 2006, 19:56

so what your saying is that as long as i can pass a FAA class 3, which is what you need they have told me, i should be fine?

o and jimmy, im greek cypriot, what part of greece you from?

What are vision requirements in Greece, and Cyprus?

steve_uniacke

3rd Dec 2006, 11:22

Hey, anyone able to say if there are any new regulations with regarding eyesight requirements (and making it easier for people with less than perfect eyes like me to fly)? I read before there was a meeting scheduled for october 2006 to discuss it.... did anything come of it?

any idea on the timescale they'll be implemented and what the changes were? i have non-binoccular vision and have heard rumours of a guy in america being able to fly cargo planes in the US with that...

(sorry if this topic has been done to death)

norton2005

3rd Dec 2006, 11:53

World, It may be from there, but I don't live out there, I live in the UK, but Greece and Cyprus are both JAA countries, so i would assume that they are the same as they are here in the UK which is JAA also. Which is +5 to -6.

world

3rd Dec 2006, 16:33

Not sure which country you are from, but I think that you'll find that most Air Forces have far more applicants than they have vacancies for, so they can afford to say "Only the best will do".

Yes, but somebody that can correct their vision means that they see as well as the uncorrected persons.
If you get US or JAR class 3 (and PPL), does it mean that you can fly jet fighter (which is not military) in private purposes? Is there any private JF school in EU or USA?
I am from Croatia, but living in Serbia.

norton2005

3rd Dec 2006, 19:43

you are correct in your statement, these new regulations were fully implemented a couple of days ago on friday 1st december. The deviation route was also abolished, anyone on the deviaiton route already is fine they can carry on with it and now anyone who takes their medical from this friday just gone will no longer have that route available to them. i feel very relieved that i took my medical when i did. i have -7 correction and took my medical a month ago so im now on the deviation route, i shudder to think what if i didnt do my medical till this month it would have been really bad news. thank god.

norton2005

3rd Dec 2006, 19:49

what is the maximum correction allowed in the military?

world

4th Dec 2006, 11:18

In USA, I think its 20-70 uncorrected (about +-1 diopter).
In Canada, its 20-20 uncorrected.

llanfairpg

4th Dec 2006, 11:34

link above dosnt work

ACIDO

4th Dec 2006, 12:13

Few weeks ago, I Phoned CAA at Gatwick asking if it was true that deviation would have been abolished by NPA 28 introduction starting from 1 december. They answered that IT WAS NOT TRUE AT ALL (!).

Now, I 've seen that deviation chance was amended (removed) from 1 Dec. 2006.
I'm very angry because of the loss of honesty of CAA. When I phoned them, it was better if they answered they knew nothing, instead of telling me that no modifications were to be introduced. I have been tricked by their reassurances and I didn't apply immediately to have the medical visit before the modification. Now, there are no chances any more.

Really disappointed...

ACIDO

waterpau

4th Dec 2006, 12:45

Anyone know for certain (with confirmation from the CAA) that the deviation route has been abolished, or whether current deviations are still safe? I can't find anything on the website, which is where the CAA advised they would post any changes, and also nothing within NPA 28, though I wasn't expecting to find anything there.

waterpau

norton2005

4th Dec 2006, 12:47

thanks for that, do you know what the limit is in the UK?

norton2005

4th Dec 2006, 12:52

current deviations are safe as long as you had the medical before december 1st. anything from december 1st onwards will be told outside limits. i was told this by the head of the AME himself. he also said that the reason they have abolished deviations now is because with no renewal limits to base on how much deviation there can be, there could be someone of -12 for example trying to get a medical and that just can't be he said. so they have had to just remove it instead.

LastMinute

4th Dec 2006, 15:16

When I looked in to joining the Royal Navy, they required visual acuity of 6/60 uncorrected and a maximum correction of 5 or 6 dioptres. That was for entry as an Engineering Officer. The requirements for Aircrew Officer were tighter still (2 or 3 dioptres maximum correction, I think). I didn't look at the requirements for ratings. I think the requirements for the RAF were similar.

Note that this was three or four years ago, and I can't remember all the details.

If you're interested in joining, call or visit a Careers Office and ask!

AlexEvans

4th Dec 2006, 15:20

I wrote to the CAA earlier today and specifically asked them whether the deviation route is still a possibility in light of FCL-28. I'm -4.0 astigmatism.
I'll let you know what they say.

world

4th Dec 2006, 19:59

LastMinute

5th Dec 2006, 01:16

world: Read the Liberalizing medical requirements (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=198207) thread.

Strobe lights

5th Dec 2006, 07:26

Thanks G/A

The link doesn´t work as llanfairpg said..
I am looking for something more "official", JAA, CAA, etc.. on the
pass-failing procedures..
Anyway, it is very interesting to know about the lantern characteristics.
Looks easier than the Holmes-Wright, where you can fail "missnaming one colour" and then pass on the second round.
Any experience with Spectrolux? Can you missname on first round or make one mistake and still pass or pass it on a second round?

Regards..

world

5th Dec 2006, 08:29

norton2005

5th Dec 2006, 10:54

Yes what i meant was from 1st december the requirements were relaxed. to -6 dioptres for initial that is, and unlimited for renewal.

What i meant aboutt he deviation is that before when the limitations were -5 for initial and -8 for renewal they had a back bone (-8) to base their deviations on. if you fell within initial and renewal you could get a short term deviation (obviously there were long term deviations aswell but thats a different story). so if you were between initial and renewal you got your deviation and then had it removed after as you did meet renewal standards for subsequent renewals. the reason they've had to abolish deviation now is because with the renewal limit gone, there isn't that same back bone as before to base on who they can give a deviation to and who they cannot. with unlimited renewal limit someone of very very high prescription could try to get a deviation. so to stop this flaw in the system wich would arise if deviations remained, they instead have just got rid of them. but in doin so they have given us an extra dioptre of initial if that is any consolation. i think it wouldn't be to much of a consolation because i already know 2 people who are outside of limits now but would have been able to get a deviation and it is very gutting for them.

norton2005

5th Dec 2006, 10:57

World, i don't no your situation so i don't no if this will affect you. PM me with some details about yourself (eg prescription) and i can hopefully answer any questions you may have.

world

5th Dec 2006, 20:21

Thanx, any way i am -2.50 with -1.5 cyl, so this doesnt affect me, but the military does and i think its going to relax in few years......

Regards,
world

FutureCaptain

6th Dec 2006, 15:30

I have had an ambition to become a commercial pilot for many years. I visited an opticians at the weekend and was told that I was outside the boundaries. I was told my prescription of -6.25 in both eyes was too high for the -5.00 boundries(i understand they are now -6.00) Ive sent an e-mail to JMr Chorley of the CAA for information on becoming a pilot in other countries and their vision rules. I have a slight stigmatism(0.25) i think and am very mildly asthmatic.

I already know that America, Canada, South Africa and Hong Kong will accept me for the JAR equivalent course. Are there any other countries that will? and are the rules in the UK likelyt to change in the near future, baring in mind that I am fifteen years old and wont be flying for at least six years (I plan to get a degree so I can fall back on something)?

NurseToPilot

6th Dec 2006, 15:44

I'm afraid this isn't going to help cheer you up, but...
You mentioned that your astigmatism is outside the limits. This prescription also shows excessive anisometropia. The difference between your eyes is 3.75 dioptres; the Class 1 initial limit is 2.0 dioptres, and the "soft" limit for renewal is 3.0 dioptres.
For reference, the JAA has now published Amendment 5 to JAR-FCL 3 (http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/606984.pdf) [PDF, ~750 KB].

Optician said this is not true.. I do not have excessive 'anisometropia' and he has proved it by converting my prescription into whats known as PLUS CYL from MINUS CYL as follows:

Original MINUS CYL PX =
+2.00 -3.50 22.5 - Right Eye
-1.75 -0.50 180 - Left Eye

NEW EXACT SAME Prescription but in PLUS CYL =

-1.50 +3.50 112.5 - Right Eye
-1.75 +0.50 90 - Left Eye

The Anisometropia now only shows as 0.25 which is well within the limits!

The only thing I am awaiting answers on now is whether my Astigmatism of 3.50 will completely stop me from carrying on...

The new rules wording does however say that for astigmatism i would have to have a eye test every two years... "for those with astigmatism of 3.00 or more diopters"

Key word here being "or more" - suggesting there is some discression involved!

Here is hoping!

JON

G_STRING

6th Dec 2006, 16:33

I know that when you go for your initial class 1 at Gatwick, you have a comprehensive eye examination, including colour vision testing, etc..

What I'd like to know is, when they do the actual test on your visual acuity, do they have access to the same sort of equipment for testing as your optometrist/optician. For example, do they put the 'headgear' on, and then test you with varous lenses from scratch, or do they simply test you with your own glasses, and accept an up-to-date prescription from your optician.

Also, is it possible to attend at Gatwick to just initially have the vision part of the class 1 done - (to save on expense of the rest of the medical if you should fail the vision part)

cheers

LastMinute

6th Dec 2006, 17:18

N2P:

I'm not going to dispute what an optician has told you. Clearly I have misunderstood what the prescription means and how anisometropia is calculated.

Apologies for causing confusion.

As always, the proper advice is: Send your prescription to the CAA, not an Internet forum!

G/A

6th Dec 2006, 17:29

sorry guys, hope this one works better

http://www.city.ac.uk/avrc/members/j.l.barbur/JAR_colour_study.pdf

world

6th Dec 2006, 19:43

Last Minute, i thing rerlus and minus are totaly different...... so i guess that difference for example beetwean -2.00 and +2.00 is 4.

FutureCaptain, I thing that there are no diopter standards in Australia,
and if you are from UK than you dont need a visa.
Rules for Pakistan and Malaysia also dont have uncorrected standards.
In Taiwan 80 % of people are shortsighted, but I am not sure for their standards. In some countries they dont accept even with 0.25 D and i will never understand why.

World

FutureCaptain

7th Dec 2006, 19:47

I will have a look, in the meantime, anyone kn ow if the boundaries are likely to change again soon:)

Tamesy1

8th Dec 2006, 10:06

At the Absolute earliest this time next year. It is more likely to be 2 or 3 years when the EASA gets it act together

Rogal

8th Dec 2006, 16:40

Hi guys,
Anyone passed anomaloscope test? Have you practical advices? This is most important test for 1st class in poland. I have never seen anomaloscope, so I'm little scared... :(

Regards

2close

9th Dec 2006, 12:47

Hi Rogal,

The news is not good, I'm afraid.

The anomaloscope is the gold standard as far as colour vision testing goes.

You will have to look through an eye-piece at a circle split into two halves, a top semi-circle and a bottom semi-circle.

You will be expected to match the two semi-circles so they look the same. This will be done using various hues and saturations and you will be 'scored' based on the settings you use to 'match' the colours.

This is a very difficult test to pass and many colour normal persons apparently fall outside the limits set by the JAA.

I would try an alternative test if I were you.

HTH

2close

DJED

10th Dec 2006, 13:14

Hi Everyone

Just thought id drop a note to report about my results after being tested at the city uni research centre. The results are not good. I apparently failed all of the tests, althought there was no mention of the PAPI test, which i did, or farnsworth d15 test. So from those results, i have a few questions. I have already been to get an FAA and CASA medical and all i need to get a full unrestricted class one is to pass an advanced colour test, but after failing the city uni tests, are there any other tests which i might pass. This is my question to you guys.

Thank you for your time

Any info is gratefully received

Ed

WrongWayCorrigan

11th Dec 2006, 07:14

You could get it done in Hong Kong. Private Message if you want details.

Strobe lights

11th Dec 2006, 13:32

Hi WrongWayCorrigan.. could you tell us how is the lantern test in HK?

Thanks

G/A

11th Dec 2006, 13:43

no problem strobe lights.

Today I was at Schipohl KLM AMC for the H.-W. Lanterntest but didn´t pass :ugh: . So I am also thinking about performing the spectrolux lanterntest and would also be interested in some infos about the test.

regards
G/A

whitelabel

12th Dec 2006, 10:14

Hi G/A

Are you still in amterdam??

There are 2 different AMC's with different colour vision tests in the Schiphol area. You went to the KLM aeromed (H-W) but there is also AEC (like Beyne) around corner (http://www.alc-srv.com/)
The people here are really nice and they try to help you with all recources the have.

The third one is (http://www.aviationmedical.com/) also at Schiphol, but for an Anomaloscope you need to go the establishment in Utrecht

ALC is the best and the other 2 are acceptable.

greetz

eject

13th Dec 2006, 00:01

Can anyone give me Mr Chorley's email address or would I be better addressing my enquiry to a general office email address or fax. Thanks.

G/A

13th Dec 2006, 12:04

Hi whitelabel,

no i´m not anymore in amsterdam, got back right after the test. But now I am thinking about going to amsterdam for the test you said. But first I have to know if the ALC is accpeted by the Luftfarhtbundesamt here in Germany. Does anyone know this? Otherwise it wouldn´t make sense to go there.
Anyway thanks for the advise.

greets G/A

whitelabel

13th Dec 2006, 13:00

Hi G/A

All the AMC's are accepted by JAA. You can give them a call if you have some questions. They speak English and maybe German also.

numbers:

Aeromedical Expert Centre: 0031-(0)23-5572555
you can send an e-mail also: [email protected] (optomologist)

Aviation Medical Center: 0031-(0)800-4212121

Good luck and do not hesitate to ask questions

kind regards

davidgq

14th Dec 2006, 03:18

so ive just been accepted into a flight program at a college on the condition that i pass an FAA class 2 physical, which im recently doubting i can do. ive always had horrible vision but i assumed it was fully corrected by my contacts. on a recent visit to the doc to renew my contacts i told him about wanted to fly and he crushed my dreams. the best he can get my vision is 20/30.

so now i dont know what to do. is there any chance i can pass the physical? im guessing the answer is no, but can i get any exceptions, or limitations? i wont be flying any time soon, or at least nothing that requires a class 2. i just need it for school.

world

14th Dec 2006, 13:36

David, I ve read on one US website (i cant remeber it) that there are waivers, who have vision corrected to 20/80 and still can fly.
I dont thing that 20/30 will be a big problem.

G/A

15th Dec 2006, 15:22

Hi whitelabel,

I made an appointment for next tuesday, so we´ll see if it works. I hope so! Anyway thanks for the advise.

regards
G/A

2close

22nd Dec 2006, 12:11

Therefore, the JAA is operating a prescribed medical test which is not in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.

In fact, are there any legal experts out there with knowledge of the aviation industry who would like to comment on this?

I know my solicitor's opinions but I would rather refrain from commenting at this point as I wouldn't wish to prejudice another's comments.

2close

IO540

22nd Dec 2006, 14:55

I don't "come here often" but it's an interesting thread. The colour vision testing business is a farce. I almost totally fail the Isihara plates but passed the H-W lantern test 100%.

I take it you have all read John Pape's paper (http://www.city.ac.uk/avrc/members/j.l.barbur/JAR_colour_study.pdf).

davidd

29th Dec 2006, 00:31

G/A Did you take the test on the tuesday ?
Did you Pass?

east_sider

2nd Jan 2007, 15:09

Hi All

Having had an extensive read back through pretty much all the colour vision threads on PPRuNe over the christmas break, I picked up on the Beyne lantern test, something I somehow missed before. General opinion seems to be this is the easiest of the lanterns. Its also the only one I've not attempted, so I've booked in to take it at Gatwick next week.

Anyone got any advice on this test, how it is run, what should the conditions be and any tips to maximise my chances of passing...?

Still haven't quite given up the Class 1 dream :)

thanks

2close

2nd Jan 2007, 21:37

East-Sider,

You will be informed that you will see ONE light at a time, and that each light will be either RED, GREEN, WHITE, YELLOW or BLUE (I think).

You will sit opposite a mirror and the light is projected from the lantern onto the mirror. The effective distance is either 5 or 6 metres for the Beynes test, the other distance being applied to the H-W test.

The test is conducted in a darkened room, lit artificially with a lamp which is projected onto the wall at the side of the mirror.

HTH and Good Luck.

2close

davidd

4th Jan 2007, 23:52

Good Luck East Sider, let us know how you get on.

east_sider

5th Jan 2007, 18:00

Thanks both I will let you know how I go.

Its white and green I struggle with, on the holmes wright I tried to look at the "rays" of light coming out from the dot...... if you imagine how you would draw a cartoon sun, a circle with lines coming out from it.... I was trying to use those. My theory being for the white light those lines would be longer, on the green light they would be shorter.... it didn't seem to work though!!

Anyone else tried something like that successfully, either on HW or Beyene lantern?

cheers
ES

biggles7374

5th Jan 2007, 19:29

I tried a similar thing too, and it doesn't work.

When they show you the demo lights they only show you two lights at a high intensity, they then say this is red and this is green Okay? Only it isn't!!!!! What is the point of demonstrating the lights when the lights used in the actual test have a different luminence etc. Talk about leading you down the garden path!!

Does anyone know what lanterns the Irish CAA in Dublin use if any?

benwizz

5th Jan 2007, 22:28

Hi there, I have a few questions about the UK Initial Class 1.

Would it be advised to wait until the new colour vision testing in implemented, it said somewhere here around March 2007 maybe. Also, is there presently both the Beynes and the H-W test? Do you get a choice of which test?

Also, if you fail, and they then bring out new testing equipment, would you be allowed another attempt?

Any advice would be appreciated :)

unfazed

6th Jan 2007, 10:45

Bealzebub

While no one denies that they are rather good eggs the fact is that they are working to some very unfair and outdated rules and nobody at Gatwick medical department seems able to change things and make it more sensible and fair.

We don't want them to fudge their unrealistic tests because no amount of fudging will make you see colours if you can't see them

What I for one want is a regulatory body that looks at things sensibly and has rules that are based on facts and safety and take into account safety data (which FAA have lots of).

Come on how many people in the UK have crashed through traffic lights because they can't "see" the red light -

CAA Medical stop being good eggs and make a difference by modernising this nonsense.:ok:

biggles7374

6th Jan 2007, 11:43

I am thinking of booking a Beyne Lantern Test at AEC in Hoofdorp, does anyone know what their protocol is for conducting the test and whether this is different from the protocol used by the CAA?

Do they demonstrate the colours prior to the test?

I ask this because I read an article written by the bods at City university that stated that many people fail the bayne because the first light should be read as white, but the colour displayed is a yellowish orange (ie not white) so many people call this as yellow (oops test failed!!!)

Any response would be appreciated.

east_sider

6th Jan 2007, 11:51

Also, if you fail, and they then bring out new testing equipment, would you be allowed another attempt?

Any advice would be appreciated :)

Benwizz, as of today at CAA Gatwick you can do any/all of isihara plates, HW lantern, Beyne lantern, you only have to pass one once and your ok. If you fail and a new test was introduced I'm not sure if you could take it again, hopefully so.

But if you are 16 as your profile says maybe wait a little while, presumably you are finishing school and maybe considering uni or a gap year before starting commercial training?

I've taken part in the trials for the new "PAPI simulator" colour test which will likely be introduced sometime in 2007-08 and from my experience its no easier than HW or any of the others....

Actually maybe you'd be better to have a go at HW or Beyne in case they scrap those when the PAPI comes in!

Might be worth giving the medical division at Gatwick a call at some point, I've found them helpful and interested in giving me the best chance to pass so far.

All the best

benwizz

6th Jan 2007, 12:54

Thanks east_sider. My test is booked for feb when I'll be 17, just to see if I can get the medical before making any decisions about university etc.

Thanks again for your help

gijoe

6th Jan 2007, 12:59

"true when they lower the intensity of the lantern, instead of bright and intense colours... you'll see fake colours!!! a greenish red, a reddish green and so on.... I'm really thinking that the CAA tries to stop or fail you whenever they can... very sad... "
What an absolutely ridiculous comment that the CAA try to fail you whenever they can. I have had many involved dealings with the medical division of the CAA over the last 25 years and they have always, always been professional and helpful. There has never been any doubt at all that they will bend over backwards to ensure you retain the medical wherever that is possible. You need to remember that the division is comprised of medical professionals with a great deal of experience in their respective fields and who naturally have a particular focus on its application to the specific field of aviation medicine.
.
Well said - they are professional and know their stuff. They are charged with implementing the rules as they stand and will try to help wherever possible. It is the rules that need to change and not the people.....although their charges could be a little less painful...:ok:

proctor

6th Jan 2007, 14:35

Hello all,

I'm currently facing an infuriating situation involving my eyes:eek: . Having gone through the laborious process of applying to the RAF as a pilot assuming that eyesight would be the least of my worries (I'm pushing 6 foot five at 17), I was shocked to receive the reply stereovision is below the required standard for this branch.

I contacted the (private) optician who had tested me, and she reckoned that my result of 240 seconds of arc was pretty normal.

I was just wondering if anyone happened to know what a standard stereopsis test should be. As a dedicated cross-country runner I was more than a bit miffed to be told the standards of medical fitness required by the RAF are necessarily high...

Thanks,

Proctor

DuffyDuck

6th Jan 2007, 19:39

the RAF have their own medical. 240 s/arc are not normal. Normal is about 40- 60. But anyway, following the Jar-Fcl, there is no sterovision required. you must have 2 working eyes, and sufficient fusional reserves to prevent doublevision.

proctor

7th Jan 2007, 09:51

Wow, thanks for that. It's funny, I'm absolutly unaware of any problem (having tried several quick tests on the internet, and never having had so much as an incling of eye problems before). Looks like I'll have to leave the RAF idea well and truely behind:( .

TelBoy

7th Jan 2007, 11:46

Thanks wf

I think a trip to the city Uni is called for first - see what comes up there. Otherwise I will go the FAA way

DuffyDuck

7th Jan 2007, 12:18

Yeah, that´s really quite strange with stereovision. You get groundet for nothing. untill the doc told me, i didn´t even knew it. played tennis, football abd had no issues with it.

norton2005

7th Jan 2007, 12:23

could someone please explain to me what this stereovision is? and what 240 arcs means and 40-60 arcs? ive never come across this before.

cessna172r MSN

9th Jan 2007, 16:29

I would like to know the waiting period after a successful retinal surgey for JAA, UK CAA, FAA, AUS CASA, NZ CAA and Hong Kong CAD (laser surgery) to seal the retinal tear. The retina is not yet detached.Thanks!

Tamesy1

9th Jan 2007, 17:16

"Following retinal or glaucoma surgery the minimum review period is 6 months"

This is from the noticeboard of Grasmere Medical Services, an AME near manchester.

east_sider

9th Jan 2007, 18:13

I failed the Beyne at Gatwick today. And the HW but I expected to fail that as I've taken it at City previously. Oh well, at least I'm between GBP30-60k richer! Kind of :ugh::ugh::ugh:

A couple of observations that might help anyone going for a test in the future:

The Beyne was not conducted exactly as 2close said above, instead of using a mirror I sat 5m from it directly in a line. The room was nearly dark but not pitch black. I was allowed a few minutes to aclimatise to the dark, but certainly not 15 mins. They didn't show me the lights before the test, but I was told the five colours (Red, Green, White, Orange, Blue.) She emphasised that the white is a dirty colour, like a light bulb, not pure/bright white.

For the HW I sat 6m from it, the room was lit. The colours (Red, Green, White) were demostrated before starting. Otherwise proceedure was as done at City.

The only feedback I got was "you've made quite a few mistakes on both tests", they don't give exact results out. But I have to say overall they were very professional and kind, the woman who did the test seemed almost more annoyed/upset for me failing than I was myself.

She did say that although don't usually let people take the same tests again, I would be welcome to have another go if/when the new test (in development with City) comes into effect. Benwizz re your question on an earlier post I hope this helps a bit.

Given the "severity" of my test fails, both today and at City previously, I don't think I'm going to see out further Beyne tests in Europe. So its the end of the line for me and Class 1, ATPL.

The very best of luck to anyone still going for it themselves.

Happy landings
ES

Ww/W

9th Jan 2007, 19:20

east_sider,

I'm sorry to hear that. Part of what p*ssed me off when I was tested was that I got no explanation of what each test supposedly relates to. I'd expect at least that from an organisation such as themselves. I sent a letter last week asking why I got no such thing, as well as a few other things. I'm ready for the 'Please contact AME Dr. X' reply. He/she will most likely say, 'Sorry mate, no idea'. :ugh:

Before I forget, I'm going to try some Chroma Gen lenses soon, and possibly buy a pair to improve my day-to-day recognition etc. Does anyone know the CAA's stance on these? Or needn't I ask? :rolleyes:

Ww/W.

LimaRomeo

9th Jan 2007, 20:23

Hi guys,
My goal is to get a JAA PPL. Today, I found out that my eyes our substandard:

LEFT:
RIGHT:

I have perfect eyesight with my glasses, but I fall beyond the limits. I think I could manage to get me an FAA Medical and go for the FAA PPL but that would make flying in Europe a lot more difficult (only N-reg's). Now here's my question: is it absolutely impossible to get a JAA Class 2 Medical in my case or is there 'another way'?
Like:
- keep writing/insisting
- 'prove' the CAA that I CAN fly an airplane perfectly safe?
Anyone has any experience with this or know any other examples?
Thanks!

LimaRomeo

9th Jan 2007, 20:26

Sorry, forgot my eye check

LEFT: 10.00 / 3.25x175°
RIGHT: 6.00 / 3.50x165°

LR

TelBoy

9th Jan 2007, 21:47

east sider

I'm sorry to hear about your test, but don't give up on flying. Look at the FAA route.

For class 3 and 2 medicals you have to recognise the light signals from a control tower at 1000 and 1500 yards - this wil allow you a CPL. For class 1 you need to do a medical flight test at night and give the rotating beacon lights as well as taxiway and runway/treashold lights. You might not have flown at night yet with CVD but they are easy to tell. The FAA guy is a flight examiner/official and not a doctor. They are very fanatical about flying and WANT you to pass.

Australia did not have any requirements for colour vision for CPL, but I'm not sure about now.

Any how I know how you feel, don't get down I'm sure you will be a pilot soon.

ATRflyer

10th Jan 2007, 11:48

Hi there,

I realise some people have asked this before but I just wanted to double check what is the latest situation at the moment in Ireland and the UK, in relation to uncorrected vision?

I was always under the impression that if your eyesight is perfect with your glasses on and your size of correction is within limits,etc, then there should be no problem.

Many thanks,
Atrflyer

jmorby

10th Jan 2007, 13:00

Hi

I think this just about covers it

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=49&pagetype=90&pageid=2189

== snip ==

Distance Vision
Your visual acuity (measured by your ability to see, in this case, lines of letters on a chart at 6 metres) must be at least 6/9 in each eye separately and 6/6 using both eyes together, with or without glasses or contact lenses (correction). If you need correction the refractive error (the amount of correction) must not exceed +5.00 dioptres of long sight or -6.00 dioptres of short sight. This is in the most ametropic meridian (taking into account any astigmatism). Astigmatism must not exceed 2.00 dioptres. The difference in correction between each eye (anisometropia) must not be more than 2.00 dioptres. Your optometrist will be able to explain these terms.

Near Vision
On the standard near vision eye chart you must be able to read the N5 print between 30 and 50 cm and the N14 print at 100 cm, with or without correction.

the dean

10th Jan 2007, 13:04

[quote=ATRflyer;3060691]Hi there,

I was always under the impression that if your eyesight is perfect with your glasses on and your size of correction is within limits,etc, then there should be no problem.

ok...but what is the question...?and we,ll see if we can help.

the dean.

ATRflyer

11th Jan 2007, 12:45

Hi jmorby,

Thanks for that. I had a good look through the CAA web-site and also JAR FCL, etc and it certainly does seem that there is no requirements for uncorrected vision, as they always use the phrase 'with or without correction'.

Hi thedean,

I think when you were quoting my post it missed my question which was just a general one, wondering what the latest situation is with uncorrected vision requirements in Ireland and the UK. Looks like there is none though.

Thanks,
All the best,
Atrflyer

biggles7374

11th Jan 2007, 21:40

David

Obtaining a FAA ATPL under more relaxed colour vision rules would enable you to fly in UK airspace, land at Heathrow (the busiest airport in the UK).

Only one snag it has to be in one of those special US aircraft, and what is so special? The wee N number of the side, yes you've got it, as long as the aircraft is registered in the US.

That is why the present situation is so wrong and discriminatory.

What gives the UK CAA and the JAA the right to impose tougher restrictions than in other parts of the world, their charge is surely to enforce the Air Navigation Order which calls for "colour perception sufficient for the safe performance of airman duties"

Is a US airman any different to a UK one??

Food for thought.

east_sider

12th Jan 2007, 10:51

Thanks everyone for your ongoing support and interest.

I've decided not to follow the FAA route. I'm 31 with my life and family established in the UK, flying is not quote important enough to me to risk all that. I could have self funded modular training in the UK whilst holding down a fairly well paid job with the flexibility to take several months off at a time. It just doesn't work out for me anywhere else. If I was 21 things would be different!

Theres two major problems with the CVD issue for me.

1. As we all know the rules, and tests, are massively inconsistent. The FAA will allow you to fly 400 tonnes of N registered 747 into LHR, but the CAA won't. Crazy, especially as aviation is by its very nature the most global of industries.

2. Are the current tests, any of them, remotely relevant for the tasks I have to perform as either a VFR or IFR pilot flying in 2007 and the future?

For example, I know the most difficult thing for me is a small amount of red on a lot of green - eg a cricket ball on grass pitch. So I think I'd find it more difficult (VFR) to see a red aircraft against a predominantly green ground colour, than I would to spot any aircraft navigation lights at night :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Similiarly from what I've seen of Glass Cockpits, I wouldn't have a problem with the colours in there. I can distinguish between a magenta line and a yellow line on the FD as well as the next man. Or green, white and red lines! But the test and protocols are 40, 50, 60 years out of date......

Anyway its a total mess. I've built up my hopes and had them dashed enough. Its VFR PPL daytime only for me, 14 hours into training so far, I'm hoping to get my PPL finished this year. And perhaps IMC next year.

Good luck to all in the future and if anyone has just found this thread and wants any advice from my experiences of City Uni and Gatwick then drop me a PM - I'm more than happy to help as much as I can.

All the best

biggles7374

12th Jan 2007, 14:23

I would suspect many of the readers of this forum are in a similar situation to me, waiting patiently for the new CAD / PAPI tests to be released by City Uni for the CAA to use. It can't come quick enough.

I thought it would be useful to just recap on the situation as I see it, these are the facts:

International aviation is governed by the ICAO and the Air Navigation Order which calls for Colour Vision sufficient for the safe performance of duties. Colour Vision requirements from country to country vary widely despite the fact that everyone has access to the same research and the same old researchers keep cropping up again and again.

The CAA have publically announced that they suspect (which really means know) they are excluding people on the basis of out of date tests and have commissioned City University to develop a new test which we eagerly await. It is the intention to get this test approved by the ICAO and have this new test introduced worldwide.

The DRC used to have the following question on their website, but now it has been removed:

Q:
I have been refused a professional pilot's licence because I have defective colour vision. I have passed certain tests that the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) set but was unable to distinguish between red and green. Is the CAA discriminating against me by refusing to give me a licence?
A:
The CAA is a professional qualification body and has a duty not to treat people less favourably for reasons relating to their disability. However, it is likely that it will be justified in not awarding a licence to you if the ability to distinguish between red and green is a competence standard which is required to be a professional pilot.

Let me now offer my take on the situation, some will maybe see this as a conspiracy theory.

The CAA know they are discriminating as this has been alluded to by some of the medics, this is a bigger political issue than many people can appreciate because I suspect there may have been pressure from the DRC or some other government agency to do something about it in the face of changing discriminatory legislation both in this country and in Europe as a whole. This is not confirmed to colour vision, there seems lately to have been a flurry of watering down of the medical requirements relating to eyesight, medical conditions etc. Have the CAA sympathetically done this off their own back or has their been under pressure from a more 'senior' authority not to exclude people unless they can demonstrate evidence to back up their position 100%

You will notice the question that WAS posted on the DRC website, the question has been answered and the answer is 100% correct given the question asked. Let me ask the question another way:

Q:
I have been refused a professional pilot's licence by the UK CAA because I have defective colour vision. I am able to go to the United States of America and I am able to gain a Professional Pilots licence that enables me to fly in airspace, and land at airports in FAA N registered commercial aircraft at destinations all over the world including the UK. Exactly the same tests are used in both countries however each country has a significantly different 'pass' criteria. Both the FAA and the CAA have the same duty to set competence standards for pilots so that the requirements of the Air Navigation Order are met (ie colour perception for the safe performance of airman duties). Is the CAA, by setting medical requirements higher than in other parts of the world discriminating against me by refusing to give me a licence?
A:
?????????

The original answer was quite correct in stating that the 'CAA is a professional qualification body and has a duty not to treat people less favourably for reasons relating to their disability'. The fact is they are setting competency standards that are, in some cases way in excess those required in other parts of the world and therefore they are discriminating against people who want to fly in UK registered aircraft, albeit the people are from different parts of the world.

There is no arguing that the CAA do a good, professional job at enforcing the rules that are in force, but they as a professional organisation also have a duty to ensure that rules set are the safe minimum so as not to discriminate against ANYBODY!!! The FAA as an example have more relaxed rules relating to colour vision and by definition considers the safe minimum to be much lower than our guys at the UK CAA.

SO here is my rather cynical view.

The new test is being introduced because many recognise that the old tests are no longer appropriate and also to passify colour defectives and give them hope, they say the standard will be reviewed and relaxed if appropriate but there is no guarantee of this. I honestly hope it does. Meantime we wait patiently doing nothing and keeping the status quo.

In the background however there are wishes to allow the test to receive ICAO approval and it's use introduced worldwide as THE international colour vision standard. This test is backed up by evidence which no doubt will be authoritive and will be difficult to challenge. No longer will pilots have the opportunity to go down the FAA route if they fail a JAA medical cause all the standards will be the same, and guess what they used the toughest standards in the world to validate the new test!!!

Neither will the CAA be at risk from future claims of discrimination on the basis that it will not be possible to say that the CAA is treating people less favorably than the aviation authorities over the world, we will just be met with the answer this person has been excluded on the basis of the international competency standard for colour vision which is the same all around the world and this is quite legitimate.

SO, Problem solved......which problem? I hear you ask. Get a fair test that does not unnecessarily exclude colour defectives or protect the CAA from claims of discrimination?

Which is correct, only YOU CAN DECIDE!!!

planecrazy.eu

12th Jan 2007, 22:22

Hey...

I suffered a blow today, i read my Astigmatism strength wrong when i first looked into been a pilot, and when i went over the datails again today i noticed that in my left eye i have an Astigmatism of 2.5 =(

2 is the limits of the C1 CAA Medical, but i was wondering if there are any pilots out there flying with stronger, or if there are any way around this problem as such?

The CAA website says if i have Lasik surgery that my uncorrected vision still needs to be within limits before Lasik, but it only states vision and not astigmatism, so is the an option to consider?

I would appreciate any help or advice...

Blues&twos

13th Jan 2007, 10:13

Have a look at this thread, answers to your question may be contained within.....:ok:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=220545&highlight=vision

davidd

13th Jan 2007, 14:42

Davidd - the isihara plates were only numbers, no symbols. It was the same set at CAA Gatwick as at City and also found online.

Not sure what you mean by "Can you identify the colour of the individual dots that make up the plates?" I can see the individual dots, and I can see the colours are different. But I can't see they are different enough to make out a number. So as I go through the book the colour of them get closer and closer together, they look like all dots are shades of a browny/green, I can't distinguish the shades enough to see a number. On certain plates I can't see any number at all.

Hope that answers your Q.

I was curious as to your ability to identify the colours within the plates.
I.e on this plate http://www.kcl.ac.uk/teares/gktvc/vc/lt/colourblindness/plate11.htm can you identify the individual dots if a non cvd person is sat next to you and points to a dot can you identify its colour ?
Have also pm'd you

unfazed

15th Jan 2007, 08:13

Blinkz

I would suggest that you follow the principle of "Don't ask / Don't tell"

If they ask then you simply advise that you have a full CAA / JAA class 1 medical certificate with no limitations - THAT IS FACT

If they want to get picky after that fine then you can try "educating" them or move on to an airline that is less picky

davidd

15th Jan 2007, 15:44

In addition what happens with regards to the medical standards in other countries is academicaly interesting but not necessarily relevant. In the USA for example many of the standards and requirements are geared up to a system that is relevant to that countries operating infrastructure and norms. For example it is comparatively rare for very low hour pilots to be employed as airline First Officers. It may well be that the FAA considers the higher experience base and general operating environment to be sufficient to allow a different level of colour vision deficiences, than that permitted in the UK.

That makes no sense to me, a low hours cvd will never get to be a high hours cvd in the UK where as a cvd pilot with 19000 hours in the USA cant get a medical in the UK, its very relevant.

Bealzebub

15th Jan 2007, 16:21

I think davidd that you are failing to understand what you do not want to understand ? It is hard to understand why a 19,000 hour US pilot (that is around 32 years of full time flying by the way !) would be seeking a UK medical. However the standard is not designed for such an exceptional case. The standard is designed to satisfy the requirement in the relevant jurisdiction.

It is not simply a case of failing the initial test that results in disqualification, since there is further testing that can be submitted to, and if the apparant CVD applicant wishes to progress, has to be submitted to.

unfazed

15th Jan 2007, 20:06

In the USA for example many of the standards and requirements are geared up to a system that is relevant to that countries operating infrastructure and norms. For example it is comparatively rare for very low hour pilots to be employed as airline First Officers. It may well be that the FAA considers the higher experience base and general operating environment to be sufficient to allow a different level of colour vision deficiences, than that permitted in the UK.

Bealzebub that is the biggest load of BS that I have seen in a long time....yes you are quite right in saying that in the US airlines look for experience and hours in logbook that are much higher (normally) than here in UK HOWEVER that does not mean that Colour vision testing should be so illogically stringent in UK...Colour vision defective pilots in UK would understand having to gain experience and hours to prove competence and ability but that is not an option - why not? :=

I think davidd that you are failing to understand what you do not want to understand ? It is hard to understand why a 19,000 hour US pilot (that is around 32 years of full time flying by the way !) would be seeking a UK medical. However the standard is not designed for such an exceptional case. The standard is designed to satisfy the requirement in the relevant jurisdiction.
Not so exceptional as you might think given the fact that we live in a global market and aviation is a truly global activity, many high time US pilots work in Europe and take JAR medicals every day of the week FACT !:=

Bealzebub - Not sure what your situation is or where you are coming from but I don't think you are a CVD pilot and I would wager that you are possibly linked to the naff system that we have (UK Medical Examiner ?)

east_sider

15th Jan 2007, 20:42

I was curious as to your ability to identify the colours within the plates.
I.e on this plate http://www.kcl.ac.uk/teares/gktvc/vc/lt/colourblindness/plate11.htm can you identify the individual dots if a non cvd person is sat next to you and points to a dot can you identify its colour ?
Have also pm'd you

I can see that all the individual dots are a wide variety of colours/shades, but I can't see the number 7. I can maybe just about make out the 7, in lighter green dots, but I can only do that because I know its a 7 I'm looking for! Hope this helps. Will reply to your PM as well.

Bealzebub

16th Jan 2007, 07:49

Unfazed, based on your hunches I wouldn't advise you wager anything. :)

I am not a "UK medical examiner" nor a CVD pilot. I am an 18000hr pilot with 5 sons one of whom does want to become a commercial pilot and has had a CVD problem which drew me to this thread. Hopefully that satisfies your qualification criteria ? I am sorry you thought the posting was the "biggest load of BS you had seen in a long time". It was based on a combination of a considerable degree of experience in both jurisdications, together with some opinion and very recent (first hand) discussion with the relevant authority.

Your judgement of the "naff system" we have here in the UK, is not one that I share, nor do I suspect many other people do, some may have a particular axe to grind ?

It really doesn't matter how "Global" an activity you feel aviation is, since clearly that is somewhat rhetorical and obvious. There are still many variations in so many aspects of it. Obviously as in this topic, the medical standards vary. The training requirements vary, the licensing requirements vary, the regulatory requirements vary. How ever much you try and torture the logic, it cannot be made to suit the outcome of your own individual grievance. Many "high time" US pilots might well undertake UK/JAR medicals, however they are still subject to the same standards as national applicants. A UK or European citizen undertaking an FAA medical is also subject to that jurisdictions standards, but to operate only insofar as that jurisdiction allows.

The colour vision requirements in the UK are laid down by the authority as are the licensing requirements. There are many differences. It does not follow that if one authority has a different standard or requirement that standard or requirement then necessarily becomes illogical. There are situations where a CVD would present problems ( read back through the posts ) and an employer, a pilot in command and a passenger should have every right to expect that the regulatory standard might preclude such problems being the acceptable level ?

In the UK (and some other jurisdictions) a CVD will not normally prevent the issue of a class 2 medical certificate with a daylight only restriction, however if further investigation of the deficiency confirms a sufficient lack of colour vision discrimination, then that will normally preclude the issue of an unrestricted class 1 certificate.

It might not seem so, but I do have every sympathy with an individual who finds themselves in this position. There are opportunities to re-test using other testing methods, and these other methods obviously may overturn the previous restriction. However there are reasons why the standards are in place. Clearly there are also reasons why different countries apply variations to those standards to suit their own situations.

I am not in any way responsible for those standards, although I understand why they exist. I also understand the reason why a CVD pilot should not present themselves in the flightdeck of a commercial airliner in many circumstances. I understand why this standard will disappoint those it affects. I understand that there are different levels of standard in the USA and maybe some other countries. I understand why there may be such differences.

TelBoy

16th Jan 2007, 10:16

As a CVD pilot (in UK) I should like to add a few comments to what has been said about the many testing methods.

I have also had the "dear John" for Gatwick (although some time ago now) and know how it feels to have your lifelong dreams dashed in an instant. Following this I did get my PPL in the USA and did the light signal test - and passed:) This gives me an unrestricted class 2 medical, good for a CPL in the USA.

Now for an ATPL you need a class 1 medical and will need to do a medical flight test at night with an FAA official - NOT a doctor. The FAA officials are all VERY enthusiastic about aviation and want you to pass, however they are also responsible for aviation saftey and will NOT pass anyone they feel is a danger to aviation, people do fail - it is not an automatic pass for CVD pilots.

In my mind and after reading a LOT about CVD I think it is a very complex matter and can be theorised for ever. The FAA route of a PRACTICAL test is appropriate, as if you can convince an FAA official that you are colour safe for AVIATION, I think this is a lot more realistic than a lot of theoretical tests. This also applies for other afflictions such as fasle limbs etc. If you can show the FAA guy that you can complete all the tasks that are needed for the safe operation of the aircraft, they will issue a SODA waiver (Statement Of Demonstrated Ability) - How practical!!

For myself, I intend to do the City Uni tests next month to see if I stand a chance here in the UK, if not will probably go back to the US and sit the medical flight test and go the FAA route. I'm not sure if this will be any good to me as my base is here in the UK, but feel that I must go as far as I can with my dream of flying.

unfazed

16th Jan 2007, 11:03

Bealzebub
I am an 18000hr pilot with 5 sons one of whom does want to become a commercial pilot and has had a CVD problem which drew me to this thread
OK Wager lost but I was correct in assuming that you were not CVD yourself,
perhaps if you were you might not be so keen to defend a system that prevents your own Son from following the professional career that you have enjoyed
You sound like you are happy with the way that CVD risk is assessed and managed in this system (but then why wouldn't you?)
Why you are so happy to tell your Son to forget it and do something else I cannot understand unless it is because you are a firm follower of the rules, whatever they are.
I hope that your Son doesn't quit from his ambitions and that he ignores your views on this subject. In time the testing requirement here will change to a more enlightened system, even if it doesn't change I would suggest that he follows the lead given by the first UK shuttle astronaut who's eyesight was not up to RAF standard but who ended up flying in space anyway ! Oh and I think his father was a pilot also

Bealzebub

16th Jan 2007, 12:37

unfazed,

Your bitterness is pointless directed towards me. My son did present this difficulty, and for a while there was a very real chance that it would thwart his ambitions in this regard. That was a possibility that we had sat down and discussed, and his mother and I had discussed at great length. No parent wants their children to be disappointed or have their ambitions dashed, however as children grow into adults the time for fairy tales draws to a close and the realities of life become more prevalant.

The AME who asessed the potential CVD explained the situation and made it clear that it would be necessary for a visit to the CAA at Gatwick for further testing as a common sense option if this was to be pursued as a career. We took his advice and followed that route and indeed as he himself suspected, those tests proved sufficient to have the CVD restriction removed. That was obviously an enormous relief to all of us and not least my son. This should enable him to now progress to all the other obstacles that will stand in his way.

It is not a case of me being "keen to defend a system", it is a case of understanding why such a system and the standards it encompases exists. If you do not want to accept the reasons that is up to you. I did not "tell my son to forget it", and I am somewhat confused as to how you came to such a conclusion ? My son didn't ignore my advice, which was in keeping with his AME's advice and to make an appointment with the CAA for further tests. I am sure he is now glad he did, although any other course of action would have been fairly redundant.

It may well be that the testing system will progress, and it might happen that the standard will change, however it is unlikely that a serious degree of CVD will be accepted for the issue of a UK/ JAA class 1 medical in the forseeable future.

Finally it doesn't matter what the first UK astronauts eyesight standard was, since it might well have been Ok for an astronaut, but clearly it was not for the RAF, and I doubt his father being a pilot had much to do anything in any event ?

In summary and to repeat the point. If you have a problem in this regard then go to the CAA for either guidance or for the definitive response if one can be given. They will try to help, however they are charged with maintaining a standard. It doesn't matter how much you whinge and bleat on internet forums, since such action will achieve nothing tangible. It might well be the case that you can wholly or in part achieve your ambition with these deficiencies in another forum.

The rules , standards, regulations, and conventions pervade every aspect of aviation, and like it or not, you are required to work within them. Many people will have little or no problem, some will have problems that can be overcome with further investigation, and some will be debarred or prevented from pursuing a career. That is the truth of the matter and however much you want to bang your head against the wall, common sense dictates you investigate the subject, listen to the advice that is offered and come to a sensible conclusion. :ugh: :ugh:

unfazed

16th Jan 2007, 14:17

Bealzebub
Yes I did misunderstand your sons circumstances
However....Having read your last post I can see that there is little point in trying to get you to see things from a fresh perspective.

I therefore won't waste any more time trying to change your views on this as I am more informed, affected and passionate about this subject then you will ever be.
Great that you and your son can pursue a long and happy flying career !

Bealzebub

16th Jan 2007, 15:35

Unfazed,
The posts are not intended to be either pompuous or long winded, but given how much you "misunderstand" or jump to unfounded conclusions, I felt it would be helpful to state clearly what I had been saying. I appreciate that my replies are not really what you want to hear but that is a consequence of posts on a thread such as this one. Not everyone is going to blow smoke up your proverbial.
It is not a case of changing my mind or seeing things from a fresh perspective, since until recently I didn't have much personal involvement with this subject. I do understand your frustrations and I have suggested the correct route to follow as it applies in the UK.
I do not know how informed, involved or passionate you are, however accepting that you are, does not really change the fact, advice or comment. You will no doubt follow whatever path you see fit and I have nothing else to advise you in this regard. The best advice will come from the authority and it is them you should talk to, and more importantly listen to. Whatever the outcome I wish you all the best for the future and hope your manner improves as a result.

soeren

18th Jan 2007, 09:10

Hello Bealzebub,

The fact is that nobody can accept irrelevant medical tests.
And current JAA colour visions tests are irrelevant and so, unfair.
It is not me who say that but :

- the Australian Administrative Appeals Tribunal 20 years ago when Arthur Pape brought the case to justice:
http://www.aopa.com.au/infocentre/topicdocuments/colourvision.pdf

- Andrew W. Siu and Maurice K. Yap in their study published 4 years ago :
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/asma/asem/2003/00000074/00000005/art00009

- Members of the City University Applied Vision Research Centre 2 years ago :
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/asma/asem/2005/00000076/00000005/art00001

- UK CAA itself 6 months ago :
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=2407
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=2408

I'm CVD, and I'm ready to accept that I could not safely handle airline pilote tasks but not with current tests. I flew several times in commercial aircraft cockpit and never saw which task I would be unable to perform. Before 2001, CVD people was not able to fly in France even in daylight conditions under private pilote licence. A lot of cvd private pilotes now fly without any problem.
I'm ready to pass any test in real flight conditions, but nobody allow it to me.

We just quickly need relevant color vision tests.

shgsaint

18th Jan 2007, 21:39

Soeren

There is a great deal of misunderstanding amongst the "colour normals" on CVD. I have had it said to me (on MANY occasions) I guess you know if the traffic lights are red or green by wether its the top or bottom light.

My reply to everyone that say's that Soeren is:

"Well how do I know whether to prepare to stop (red light on) or floor it and hope it stays green at night then where it is much harder to determine whether the top, middle or bottom light is illuminated? Especially on poorly lit roads?

That usually shuts them up pretty quickly.

I agree though there is a huge misunderstanding on the whole issue with 'normal' people.

I really do have to pass the class 1 now if i'm ever to become an ATCO. Gone off the whole flying thing. Unless I win the lottery that is anyway! Oh and pass the class 1. :rolleyes:

gijoe

19th Jan 2007, 06:10

I recently did all of the tests at City as part of their ongoing research programme. This included tests that I had not seen before.
The most promising of all appeared to be, the oft quoted on here, PAPI test. As a green deficient I could do this and it is in my opinion the most practical of the tests that I have seen.
The researcher said that she was still analysing her data but had tested 120 subjects so far.
PM me if you want any more info.

TelBoy

19th Jan 2007, 11:15

Can anyone tell me if the City Uni will give you an idea if you should pass or fail the Gatwick test, or say that you might be better in Holland or Germany etc?

The reason I ask is that I failed the Gatwick test, nearley 15 years ago now (before the JAA and I feel the tests could have been better preformed) and I feel that I might have trouble getting them to retest me. The situation I want to avoid is getting a retest at Gatwick then failing and then the new tests being introduced and Gatwick refusing to retest me - anyone have any ideas!

Any how I will do the City Ubi test next month and let you all know the results.

east_sider

19th Jan 2007, 12:55

I went to City summer '06, they diagnosed me during the session as "Moderately Protonamolous" and gave an informal verbal opinion that it was unlikely I'd be able to pass any lantern test, regardless of where I took it - not surprising as I'd just done the HW lantern and made about 15 mistakes.

You can definitely talk around your chances with them and that's a great reason to go there, but I don't think they would be comfortable giving a formal opinion on whether anyone should pass/fail.

A few days later you receive a fairly comprehensive written report and results of all the tests you've done in the mail.

If you go to Gatwick and fail the HW and Beyne they will definitely put in writing that you are "CP4 colour unsafe" !!!!!!!!

Hope that helps a bit.

TelBoy

19th Jan 2007, 15:12

Thanks east sider

I was only looking for the opinion if I would pass or not at Gatwick. Cannot expect them to say more than that.

AlexEvans

27th Jan 2007, 02:21

Does anyone know if the CAA allow orthokeratology/orthok for intial class 1 issue? (hard lenses you wear overnight to change the shape of the cornea) If I find that this may help me reduce my astigmatism to within limits I'll give it a go, but it would have to be with the CAA's approval (regardless of whether they can detect it or not), because they are already have my existing prescription on file.

Wazzoo

27th Jan 2007, 17:26

To set the scene, I have never worn glasses before, however I got my Class 1 last year and it was conditional on having corrective lenses so week ago I headed into the opticians to kit me out with some specs. The result being that my right eye is pretty much fine but my left eye is +0.75 sph, -2.0 cyl and 92.5 axis.

I was told I didn't need to wear them all the time since my right eye happily compensates and I see everything in focus normally but I would need them when I was flying and that it would be good to wear them when I was driving or doing things like working on the computer, concentrating in a lecture etc, which is also what the lady at my Class 1 initial said would be the case.

I've been trying to do that for the last week but I'm finding it quite difficult to adjust to the new glasses. It was quite bad for the first few days and it was almost making me feel sick, which was what the optician said would be the case since I was making quite a large jump from no glasses straight to 2 dioptres.

Since then I don't feel sick and I've been getting used to them a bit more (focusing is fine and much improved over not having glasses) but I'm still having a few problems. Most notably, if I look at something that is square like a piece of paper or a computer screen the horizontal edges appear to diverge. Also if I look at something that is rectangular like a door or even the wall of a room and then tilt my head to the left or right, the shape shifts like a parallelogram so | | becomes / / (thats an exaggeration..but just to show what I mean!). Not in a huge way so that I won't notice it that much if I doing stuff, but if I stop and look at something and tilt my head then it is noticable. Lastly, I find that my distance perception has been thrown a bit, again, not in a major way but certainly noticable if I look for it and has caught me out a few times when picking up a pen for instance.

The optician seemed to think that I would take me a least a few weeks to adjust to the new glasses. Is that the case? Is it likely to get to the stage after a few weeks that I won't notice any problems with horizontal lines whether I'm wearing glasses or not and my depth perception will be fine?

Was wondering what other peoples experiences were for going from not wearing glasses to adjusting to wearing them, particularly with astigmatism. Do you find it easy to flip between wearing them for flying and not on the ground?

Thanks for the help! :ok:

waterpau

27th Jan 2007, 18:16

Hi Alex,

Not sure on the CAA's view on Ortho-K. I did look into it for correction though. When I tried all the options to correct astigmatism, I visited the Institue of Optometry in Elephant & Castle for a consultation on Ortho-K. If I remember correctly, they correct astigmatism upto 1.5D, but it is possible that it can correct more. I think they would have been willing to 'experiment' on me, but I'm long-sighted so the Ortho-K would have made that worse (it only corrects myopia). I did suggest having the Ortho-K treatment, and then having stronger glasses to correct more long-sightedness (!) but they laughed at that.

waterpau

norton2005

28th Jan 2007, 11:24

Waterpau, is there a website that i can go to for more information on these procedures?

waterpau

28th Jan 2007, 13:47

Try a search for 'orthokeratology' on Wikipedia and Google. The wikipedia article gives a good background on what the treatment is.

I can't argue for or against it as I only had a consultation, but I gathered that Ortho-K is only good for correcting vision that is within the CAA limits, thereby making it no good for obtaining a class 1. My consultation was in May 2006, so there might have been some change since then...

waterpau

BOMB-DOCTOR

28th Jan 2007, 20:43

I had a similar problem, initialy started with a 2.0 cyl then over time and going thru the ground school i started wearing glasses more and more.

Mainly because i couldn't deal with the diffrence between glasses on then off.

After three or so years my eyes got worse until they reached 3.0 cyl and I couldn't live without glasses for anything. So trundled off to a laser sugery chap and got the eyes blasted and very happy with the result and threw the glasses out!:ok:

I suspect in your case you may need time to adjust initialy. But it is also possible that perhaps the amount of correction givenmay be too much for your brain to tolerate. If so get back to the optician explain the problem and ask for less of a coreection.

Best of luck

vapilot2004

29th Jan 2007, 04:09

I have a very slight astigmatism in my left eye and while there was definately an adjustment time, it wasn't too bad really after we got the prescription sorted out.

I highly recommend a Toric lens (contact astigmatism correction) over glasses. The glasses did make me dizzy, while a contact lens only made feel slightly disorientated at first. :)

Your optician may recommend constant use to get your eyes adjusted to the difference between wearing them and not. I would also ask for only a 20/20 prescription as I had found the 20/15 correction I was given at first made reading difficult.

world

29th Jan 2007, 10:58

I also have astigmatism (-1,5D cyl) and I adjusted in a week.
P.S I know its off-topic, but does anybody have goggles for swimming (with astigmatism)?

Ww/W

29th Jan 2007, 16:31

Simple question. If I were to obtain a CASA Class 1 med with a colour vision deficiency, would any Australian airlines accept it, or would they have more stringent requirements? Thanks for any help.

Loose rivets

29th Jan 2007, 20:52

I'm at the other end of the age spectrum, but I wrote a lot about my problems coming to terms with an eye defect after 60 years of near perfect eyesight.

Following surgery for PVD, I made a full recovery only to find that a nuclear cataract kicked in. Statistically this was likely to happen, but I had hoped that I was one of the lucky ones.

If you can search for this you will understand just how much the brain has to work to adjust to totally new datums. Some people just seem to adapt, others have a really bad time.

You would be described as an astute observer, and folk like you are often the ones that have the worst time. Having said this, I'm not totally convinced that the effects you describe should all be there. You have the right to question the prescription. My pal did, and his was wildly in error.

Let us know the results.

Wazzoo

29th Jan 2007, 22:38

Appreciate the replys and advice guys..all very helpful.

Been trying to use them as much as I can this last few days and think I'm seeing some progress. I notice them less and can go for ten/fifteen minutes before thinking 'hey, whats these things perched on my nose'!

Loose Rivets is probably right in that I do become a bit preoccupied with the changes to my vision thus making it more difficult to adjust. I've been making an effort to ignore the impulse to look for problems and that has helped a lot. In fact if I just act normally and do everything as I would normally I notice them very little.

The diverging horizontal lines are still there but I'm beginnning to think thats improving and only notice it with things that are a foot or two away like a piece of paper or a computer screen. It can still be tiring whering the glasses for long periods but that is improving as well. The whole thing of straight lines shifting if I tilt my head is definately still there, but then as I think about it..its not a movement I would normally do even without glasses and I think I do it more because I know that it causes a problem than anything else!

Throught a bit of deductive reasoning and reading around the subject I also think the shifting when I tilt my head has a lot to do with seeing through the outer areas of the glasses rather than just looking through the middle, which is the part that has the correction for the astigmatism. I've read of a number of people like vapilot2004 who have found contacts helped a lot in this area.

The dream would be to have laser surgery, but that will definately have to wait for a few more years until the cash is available!

I will keep going with these glasses for the rest of the week which is what the optician said to do (don't want to go back just for him to say go away and wait some more!), and if I'm still not seeing a real improvement I'll go back and ask about a re-test or possibly lowering the prescription so my eyes don't have to make such a big correction.

Probably the best advice I could give with hindsight (no pun intended!) on the whole matter is at least for that first prescription, use a proper/dedicated opticians rather than one of the high street chains. Not that the high street chains give bad glasses, just I could have done with some more info from them and someone who maybe knew a bit more about corrective lenses in relation to flying and adjusting to them, especially when your livelyhood depends on it. I did get the feeling of being just another customer to push through the sausage machine than anything else. You can even get your prescription done at somewhere like that and once you know you have the right one, take that down to the highstreet chains with their offers to get the specs.

Will keep you posted if I get any improvements or anything more from the opticians! :ok:

Loose rivets

30th Jan 2007, 02:33

You could take your specs, along with a copy of the script, to another optician. They have a machine that will assess your lenses and print out a copy of the actual curvatures... i.e. a comparative script. I think I would do this under the circumstances. I'm still uneasy about what you are seeing.

whitelabel

30th Jan 2007, 14:58

No not unless you pass a lantern or pratical test.
In Australia it is possible to fly commercial if you are colour deficient (colour unsafe) Thanks to Dr. A. Pape.

Airlines (regionals) who opperate only in Austrailia will accept this because you are permitted to fly above Australian soil without any restriction. On the other hand you are not allowed to fly anywhere else because you failed the lantern.

Kind regards

JUZ777

30th Jan 2007, 22:25

Ww/W.... I have an Australian CPL and have been flying for about 5 years. I am colour deficient and have held a class 1 with the restriction being valid up to and including CPL in Australian airspace only.. On that you can get a job with an Australian airline after completing your ATPL subjects but will never upgrade to captain as you need to hold a Full Atpl.... In saying that i just completed the practical lantern test and have had the restriction removed....SWEEEET

Ww/W

31st Jan 2007, 14:26

Thanks chaps, that's cleared things up for me. And congrats JUZ777! :D What and who do you fly for?

I'd now be keen to know whether the same exists in the USA? So if anyone knows then that would be helpful. :cool:

TelBoy

1st Feb 2007, 10:36

leftseatview

3rd Feb 2007, 16:55

Six months ago i was diagnosed with Central serous retinopathy(CSR) of the right eye.
it healed in about 6 weeks and my Class 1 was renewed.(after an OCT and FFA)
Six weeks ago i had a relapse .
i have now undergone laser photocoagulation,and my vision is improving.
is there any cooling period after this procedure?
Would the relapse(same spot as original) show up on a normal Class 1 medical?
Thanks in advance

Lord Flashart

3rd Feb 2007, 18:11

I am trying to contact people who have converted a non-UK JAA class 1 medical to a UK issued JAA medical certificate.

The CAA are refusing to convert my Dutch medical, on the argument that I was assessed as CVD at Gatwick (failed both lanterns), however I later passed a Beyne lantern in The Netherlands and have been assessed as colour safe and granted an unrestricted JAA class 1. (Incidentally, as some of you will already be aware, I did not fail a UK medical - as I chose not to continue after the colour vision tests - therefore I was entitled to go and do another medical elsewhere). I wish to eventually end up with a UK issued licence, so I want to convert my medical to a UK issued one.

This is particularly irritating since the CAA advised me before I went to get the foreign class 1 (I spoke to the chief medical examiner) that there would be no problem converting it - silly me for not getting this in writing, also, oddly enough (but understandably I suppose if this is a contentious issue internally at the CAA) there is no record on their system of this conversation.

They also tried to imply that since the protocol used for administering the Beyne lantern test in The Netherlands may (or may not) be different to that used in the UK, that the tests would not be acceptable to them - this seems entirely contrary to the spirit of the JAA, and extremely illogical since they would surely convert a foreign medical without further testing for an applicant who had not previously failed the UK colour vision tests - I guess I've rubbed them up the wrong way by getting a second opinion.

As a final rubbing of salt into the wound they then said that they were not even willing to commit to saying that if the protocol used *was* the same, then they would accept my medical for conversion.

I guess it's not the end of the world - I can always get a licence elsewhere in Europe - but it would be preferable to get a UK issued licence. I certainly intend to pursue this a good deal further before resorting to getting a foreign licence.

(Incidentally, does anyone know if there are other European states in which you can take the ATPL exams in English - and also whether or not a UK based ATPL groundschool qualifies to take the exams elsewhere - don't really want to have to learn a foreign language on top of the ATPL study).

The CAA, although polite, seem determined to make this process difficult for me - I was even told there was no procedure for converting a non-uk medical, and that SOLI changes were only done on licences - despite the fact that on their own website they publish the procedure for doing a SOLI change on a medical (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED_Non-UKCl1%5B2577%5D.pdf) and I know of people on here who have done just that.

I have corresponded with Blinkz on here who did convert a German JAA medical but, and I quite understand why, he does not want his name or reference number used in my correspondance with the CAA, so I'm trying to find out if anyone else who's done this would be willing to have their details used to establish precedent for this.

If anyone can help out I'd be enormously grateful - please drop me a PM.

Blinkz

3rd Feb 2007, 22:40

Lord Flashart,
I really am very surprised about the CAA taking this standpoint. Who is that you have talked to about it? Is it just an advisor who has said that they will not accept it? You should speak again to Dr Evans (Cheif medical officer) and get her to actually give the definitive answer. One thing that I have found with the CAA medical department is that the advisors, helpful as they are, can give different answers on different occasions. Keep putting on the pressure, there is no reason that they cannot accept your medical, so just keep writing calling etc and keep the pressure on, threaten legal action if need be (altho as a last resort!) Hope it all works out!

Lord Flashart

3rd Feb 2007, 23:38

Thanks for the reply Blinkz, I certainly will be keeping the pressure on. I spoke to Dr. Paul Collins who handles day to day enquiries, but if this continues I will start speaking to Dr. Evans directly. I am, as you can appreciate, pretty horrified that one JAA state should take this unilateral view, when the whole medical process is standardised and therefore any JAA medical is as good as any other.

In the first instance, I am having the AMC that conducted my medical write to the CAA advising them of the protocol used in the colour vision testing, but I consider this to be unnecessary too since it is a given that any JAA medical is conducted to a common high standard.

The CAA also told me that if, for example, someone with a non-UK CPL who had needed a lantern test to establish they were colour safe, and then wanted to convert their licence to a UK issued JAA CPL, that the CAA would require repeat colour vision testing - I find that pretty hard to believe. Does anyone have experience of this?

I don't really think the CAA have a leg to stand on here, but that doesn't stop them making the process unnecessarily awkward for me. As you've said, the individuals involved are invariably polite and (within certain limits) helpful, and on that front I've no problem with the CAA, but I find it pretty ridiculous that a member states CAA would so blatantly go against the principle of common standards and mutual recognition of licences and medicals.

Cheers

Flash

unfazed

4th Feb 2007, 08:58

Lord Flashhart

Regarding your question about where else you can get the medical validated (English speaking preferred) - What about Ireland ? English speaking , JAR and may be happier to accept JAR Medical from partner JAR state.

Just an idea

Good luck but stay cool and talk to the right people !

Blinkz

4th Feb 2007, 09:56

I recommend that you go straight to Dr Evans now. Although my story is slightly different to yours, in that I tried to get the CAA to accept just a lantern pass from Germany. They said no to this, as they have you since it was a different protocol. I kept on the pressure and wrote a number of letters to the Chief medical officer, this was a Dr Evans, but not the same Dr Evans that is currently head of the medical department. The Doctor I delt with is now head of ICAO medical department. After keeping the pressure on for the CAA to accept the lantern test (at this point I didn't have a medical at all) the CAA wrote back and said that they would accept a full medical from Germany and would convert it as usual. I hadn't actually mentioned doing this so it was them who suggested me to get a full class 1 else where.

Try actually writing to Dr Evans, mention that she had already said to you in a previous conversation that they would accept another medical. She will have to write back and so you will have proof of whatever she says. In my experience of Dr Evans (the current chief, lol getting abit confusing) she is very friendly and will do whatever she can to help.

As for Ireland, I asked them 4 years ago to accept my lantern test results but the AMC there said they would not, but I don't know if they would accept a full medical since I never asked that. Good luck!

norton2005

4th Feb 2007, 15:41

Now that the deviation process has been stopped in the UK, if an applicant is over the limit of -6, say -7 for example, is there any way for this applicant to obtain a class 1?

Ww/W

4th Feb 2007, 20:56

Ww/W In the USA you must pass colour vision tests to get an unrestricted medical. For a CPL you need a class 2 medical and you can have the colour vision test done practically with an FAA official on an airfield. If you can tell the tower signal gun lights at 1000 and 1500 yards you get a SODA waiver (Statment of Demonstrated Ability) this acts as the colour vision part of your medical exam and gives an unrestricted medical. For an ATP you need a class 1 medical and will have to do a medical flight test at night with an FAA guy to be able to distinguish the runway lights, taxiway, other aircraft nav lights , beacon etc. This will give a SODA for a class 1 Med.

It is apparentley harder to get work though with SODA waiver. The FAA will also use lantern tests and if you pass these gives an unrestricted medical same as in the UK.

Have you done the City Uni test to see exactley where you stand?

Good luck with your flying and all the best.

Thanks very much for the info TelBoy. I went to City uni about 7years ago and was diagnosed as CP4 'colour unsafe'. I'm trying to sort out a date when I can visit again to trial the new tests for the great and adorable CAA.

I'm thinking of writing a letter asking why they have to be so different to the rest of the world. Anywho I've been considering the CASA/FAA route for a while now. I don't know whether to commit myself and then find nobody will employ me. :sad:

TelBoy

4th Feb 2007, 23:35

Ww/W A word of caution with the CAA. It seems that if you do their colour vision tests and fail then they will not retest you. Get a full idea from the City Uni to see if you will pass now or maybe the long awaited new test, or even in Holland or Germany, you don't want to burn bridges with the CAA just yet.

I know what you mean with the FAA route. I have failed the CAA tests, albeit about 14 years ago now and before the JAA, so I might have a fight with them to get a retest, BUT I have a SODA waiver for the good old FAA:)

I don't know about your personal circumstances or nationality, but if you are not a US citizen, you might be able to get a J1 visa to do a CPL with Instructor rating and then work there for a while after instructing to gain experience. I feel that you would be OK with a SODA for that - but then comes the real world:eek: . Just remember to learn to fly in the USA now you need a student visa and security clearance.

I do not know if you can do the signal test outside the USA - I did mine while I was dooing my PPL there.

As for writing a letter to the CAA I think all they will say is that they are looking into new tests and to be fair to them they are.

I know it seems a never ending battle, but don't give up on your dreams. I am in the same situation - did my PPL and it seemed there was no hope, so did not keep flying. Now I am 43 with CVD and intend to start all again - I WILL do my CPL, FAA if need be and take it from there. I don't know where the money is going to come from etc, but always look to the sky when I hear a plane overhead - it's just got to be done.

Any rich person want to sponsor me :) :) - well its got to be tried!!

Good luck and keep the dream.

corin100

5th Feb 2007, 22:43

Hi,
I have today tried to book my initial class1 at Gatwick, there seemed to be a little uncertainty as to my vision when they spoke to me on the phone.Although they were very helpful I was wondering if any of you had an opinion on my prescription? I think the problem is my astigmatism and they wanted to see my past three years prescriptions.

RIGHT SPH +0.75 CYL -2.50 AXIS 95

LEFT SPH +0.50 CYL -2.00 AXIS 94

Cheers:8

Jimmy The Big Greek

5th Feb 2007, 22:57

well its your right eye that is the problem with 2.5 diopters of astigmatism. They asked about your records to see if it is stable. Astigmatism is usually stable and I think that there should not be any problems.

If you have problems with obtaining a first class medical you should consider lasik.

Wazzoo

5th Feb 2007, 23:09

If you have problems with obtaining a first class medical you should consider lasik.

As Jimmy says, its the 2.5 in your right eye thats the problem, since the limits for astigmatism are 2.0.

However, do not just assume that you can gain a Class 1 through the help of laser eye surgery. In the CAAs own words:

"In fact the certification limits of eye correction with glasses and the limits of refraction before surgery are the same, so it is not possible to gain a medical certificate by having refractive surgery, that you would not have obtained by wearing glasses."

Any laser surgery should be done with consultation with the CAA and an eye specialist who knows the situation for pilots.

Jimmy The Big Greek

5th Feb 2007, 23:13

yes I know that, But in his case with that prescription I'am pretty sure that it would be ok.

Wazzoo

8th Feb 2007, 00:22

yes I know that, But in his case with that prescription I'am pretty sure that it would be ok.

Apologies, didn't mean to say you didn't, just spoken to a number of people who jump to the conclusion that laser surgery is the answer to getting a class 1.

Hiya
Right eye: Sph -1.25
Left eye: Sph - 1.00, Cyl - 0.25, Axis 50.
Can anyone advise if this is ok for an Initial Class One,
Sorry, but these numbers mean very little too me, and I’ve taken the data of a written prescription I had.

From a brief glance they look fine for a Class 1 but do not take my word for it..see an optemetrist who is familiar with the requirements for aviation and can explain it all properly. But at the end of the day its down to the CAA to give the yay or nay. I had a friend who never wore glasses but got turned down on a rare condition that precluded him from a Class 1 so its never a given until you have the piece of paper in your hand.

More details can be found here: http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=49&pagetype=90&pageid=534

Some pages explaining prescriptions and eyesight for aviation pulled from Google:
http://www.eyetopics.com/articles/94/1/Eyeglass-Prescriptions-Explained.html
http://www.aoa.org/x5351.xml (american)

justdafacts25

8th Feb 2007, 02:53

Hello from a newbie!
Hi out there. I wanted to introduce myself to everyone. I’ve been searching the web for info about lasik and found this board. I’ve never thought about joining a board before, but after reading through some posts, I’m happy I did. I just want to say thanks to everyone for the support you offer here.

whitelabel

9th Feb 2007, 14:53

The dont need to accept this. This is their own choice. But no problem sofar. Why is it so important that CAA need to accept your medical?? For example. If you hold a class one French medical, you will have the same rights as your english friends. Get ATPL and you are allowed to work in whole europe.

already done an initial exam? after this it is not possible to do an initial elsewhere.

good luck

TelBoy

9th Feb 2007, 17:54

Hi folks. I'm a bit confused about the situation being discussed here, but VERY interested. Is it possible to get say a Dutch class 1 medical and use this for a UK CAA Licence? or do you need to do a Dutch ATP and then work in the rest of Europe.

Us English are not as good at learning other languages to study in you see :)

Lord Flashart

10th Feb 2007, 17:40

To obtain a CPL the medical must be issued in the state that will issue the licence, but any JAA licence is as good as any other and can be used in any JAA state.

Bad medicine

11th Feb 2007, 01:56

Ladies and Gents,

This topic is getting a bit repetitive, with so many people posting their prescription and asking if it will be OK. The limits for most of the regulatory authorities appear in this thread, or are available on their websites. try to do a little research on your own behalf before posting here. There will always be doubtful cases, and the only people who can answer those ones with any authority are the respective regulatory body.

We are not here to quell discussion, but this is really not the place to be getting your answers.

Cheers,

BM

justdafacts25

12th Feb 2007, 00:46

Thanks for the Support.
I just joined this board and have been reading through a bunch of posts. I wanted to tell you all how much I appreciate all the support you give one another. I think it will be really helpful for me to read what other people are going through. So, thanks!

Wilco2

12th Feb 2007, 14:25

I had laser surgery eighteen months ago and am delighted with the result. I now have stable 20/20 vision with no complications. However, I gather this is still not acceptable to the CAA for a Class 1 medical as my level of prescription BEFORE surgery was outside limits? (Perfectly OK for my Class 2 though). From other threads I have read it seems the FAA are more reasonable in their requirements - can anyone confirm this please?
Apologies if this has been covered before but I could not see anything on this specific subject

justdafacts25

12th Feb 2007, 14:51

Great lasik video
I found this site called realhealth.tv which has a great video. Even though I am a new member, I think everyone here would really like watching this film b/c it was really nice hearing and watching someone talk about their difficulties and how they cope. I wanted to share this with everyone here, hoping it would help you guys too. Here's the link http://www.realhealth.tv/site.html?goto=19&vid=19&vo=0.

2close

12th Feb 2007, 15:49

The only way you can mix 'n' match is between the UK and RoI, where a reciprocal agreement exists to accept each others Theory, Medical and Flight Training. Anywhere else, you have to have all three conducted in the State of Licence Issue.

Not because it states so in JARs but because that is how JARs have been interpreted by member states.

JARs actually state that it is possible to complete training in one state that has been commenced in another state - member states just choose to ignore this sub-para and get all protective of their own sovereignty.

Will it be any different under EASA?

Wilco2

12th Feb 2007, 18:32

Hi - I would be most interested ti receive an update on this. I had laser surgery 18 months ago but as my right eye was -7.00 Dioptres before surgery the CAA say no chance of a class 1 even though I now have 20/20 with no complications. Thanks:bored:

shortarse_Yoda

12th Feb 2007, 20:08

Just stumbled across this forum whilst looking for info on whether the latern test has changed yet at the CAA for people who fail the plates. I have a C1 FAA with SODA I have not flown for 10 years. It seems that from what I read that there are several different latern tests depending on ehat country you go to. I have failed the UK CAA one but might pass one in say Holland BUT even if I did I would have to do the complete CPL or ATPL of the country that I took the medical in? As I understand it the CAA would not accept the medical as a basis to issue the CAA medical, BUT if I did the whole licence in Holland they would issue a CAA licence on the basis of my dutch licence - is this correct?

The reason I ask is that the differing standards of the CV test in different JAR countries might allow me to pass in one or other European country.

I'm in pretty much the same boat as a number of people in this thread and would like to know if my summary is correct. BTW Gatwick will have me on record as failing the latern test, twice - I got a retest as a favour from the chief pilot at an Airline I used to work for, but it doesn't change things the second time around!

Kindest regards to all.

SY