Beech Premier down on apprach RWY 15 WMSA
It was also my first thought. I went on FR24 and realised it wasn't the case. It was established on a standard (presumably ILS) approach. There were no turns involved immediately prior to the upset.
Thread Starter
I'd suggest the images support the gear being down, it is not clear but looks like pixels similar to gear position.
The aircraft is not slow for the phase of flight, irrespective of its flap setting, if anything I would appear to be quite fast if a stable approach was intended.
A lateral rolloff may be from an asymmetry of a flap, it s too fast to be likely a VMCA event, No TRs, but an asymmetric lift dump might give such a roll off. With 2 pilots it shoudn't be a physiological event, but it can still occur. The DFDR should survive, hopefully they have enough parameters to determine the cause promptly.
Was this doing charter work? it doesn't appear to be on an FAA AOC or transferred by ICAO 83 bis to a CAAM AOC, and they don't seem to have an CAAM FAOC, so hope it was legitimate FAR 91.
The aircraft is not slow for the phase of flight, irrespective of its flap setting, if anything I would appear to be quite fast if a stable approach was intended.
A lateral rolloff may be from an asymmetry of a flap, it s too fast to be likely a VMCA event, No TRs, but an asymmetric lift dump might give such a roll off. With 2 pilots it shoudn't be a physiological event, but it can still occur. The DFDR should survive, hopefully they have enough parameters to determine the cause promptly.
Was this doing charter work? it doesn't appear to be on an FAA AOC or transferred by ICAO 83 bis to a CAAM AOC, and they don't seem to have an CAAM FAOC, so hope it was legitimate FAR 91.
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The approach to Subang RWY 15 is usually a protracted affair, not often you will get a shortened approach, unlikely they were doing a short base, certainly not from the Langkawi direction.
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Spoiler
Last edited by fdr; 19th Aug 2023 at 12:27.
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Did a little research on the type...This info may not be completely accurate...The "1" was replaced by the "1A" in 2006 to correct many issues including braking and to make other refinements...N28JV was a "1" I believe but my source says all should've been upgraded to "A" specs...Hull losses on both versions occurred mostly in app/ldg and mostly from pilot error ( a Nascar owner at Oshkosh)...Didn't see any involving LOC in flight BUT it was a quick search so as I stated may not be accurate...Btw in the video it looks to me like they were belly up or close to it at impact...FDR just now see your input and several mentions of "lift dump" and WOW issues on ldg are in the hull losses reports ...Supposedly corrected in upgrades...
Last edited by 1southernman; 19th Aug 2023 at 12:03.
Thread Starter
Did a little research on the type...This info may not be completely accurate...The "1" was replaced by the "1A" in 2006 to correct many issues including braking and to make other refinements...N28JV was a "1" I believe but my source says all should've been upgraded to "A" specs...Hull losses on both versions occurred mostly in app/ldg and mostly from pilot error ( a Nascar owner at Oshkosh)...
WOW failure airborne would lead to fairly high AOA, and could give a tip stall if the path was being maintained, the AOA will rise rapidly, to maintain the reqd total lift for the path, and any roll tendency the ailerons will have reduced effectiveness due to the AOA, [Boeings... aileron effectiveness increases with speed brake rise... slightly different dynamics. Airbus/Boeing FBW, the gain scheduling is altered and the PI control loop stops most of that effect in normal laws. Airbus infamous OEB 117 comes to mind...]. It is possible that inadvertent ground spoiler may end up with a roll off, and a stick push going on, would be recoverable if aware of it, roll authority by rudder and asymmetric power still exists, but it could be challenging, and quite a surprise.
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That was Jack Roush, in 2010. The NTSB put that down to distraction during a G/A at low level, he believed he was conflicting with a Piper Cub, overshot the c/line and added thrust more or less by muscle memory, not by the gauges, got stall, stick pusher but RW stalled at low level. This case, is not low speed for this aircraft.
WOW failure airborne would lead to fairly high AOA, and could give a tip stall if the path was being maintained, the AOA will rise rapidly, to maintain the reqd total lift for the path, and any roll tendency the ailerons will have reduced effectiveness due to the AOA, [Boeings... aileron effectiveness increases with speed brake rise... slightly different dynamics. Airbus/Boeing FBW, the gain scheduling is altered and the PI control loop stops most of that effect in normal laws. Airbus infamous OEB 117 comes to mind...]. It is possible that inadvertent ground spoiler may end up with a roll off, and a stick push going on, would be recoverable if aware of it, roll authority by rudder and asymmetric power still exists, but it could be challenging, and quite a surprise.
WOW failure airborne would lead to fairly high AOA, and could give a tip stall if the path was being maintained, the AOA will rise rapidly, to maintain the reqd total lift for the path, and any roll tendency the ailerons will have reduced effectiveness due to the AOA, [Boeings... aileron effectiveness increases with speed brake rise... slightly different dynamics. Airbus/Boeing FBW, the gain scheduling is altered and the PI control loop stops most of that effect in normal laws. Airbus infamous OEB 117 comes to mind...]. It is possible that inadvertent ground spoiler may end up with a roll off, and a stick push going on, would be recoverable if aware of it, roll authority by rudder and asymmetric power still exists, but it could be challenging, and quite a surprise.
...Can deploy in flight. 3 boards per side. System is locked except for takeoff, (for an abort), and unlocked prior to landing. System is separate from speedbrakes, and power will not cause a retract. On back of pedistal, it is a t handle that is illuminated white when armed. A unlock switch,an emergency manual lock release, and Warning placard about not deploying in flight are beside it. Alarm sounds if handle moves without deployment. Early Premiers had to have weight on wheels, but this was later changed after a rash of runway overruns after failed deployment. There was an SB issued to convert the older systems.
Last edited by 1southernman; 19th Aug 2023 at 21:46.
fdr they did a straight in, no base. Thanks for looking up the stall speeds - never operated small bizjets, surprised to see their Vs doesn't change dramatically with flaps.
circling left Stall, Spin. Don't remember a right roll reversal. Was that in the NTSB report just released??
you post:
"111 degrees left wing low, one second later, right wing 146 degrees low."
T-38?
Last edited by Concours77; 19th Aug 2023 at 23:38.
At the last, it was spinning, the inversion was almost complete.
So yes, Stalled....imo
That's not a long base, with a too tight turn to final?
Long downwind with a too tight turn to base?
Dunnint look like a straight in.
Middle pic shows long final for the RW... did he forget he was straight in, then a desperate right turn to final for the freeway? On the Twitter, his right turn looked very slow ... recovery, then a second Stall then Spin, and done?
So yes, Stalled....imo
fdr they did a straight in, no base. Thanks for looking up the stall speeds - never operated small bizjets, surprised to see their Vs doesn't change dramatically with flaps.
Long downwind with a too tight turn to base?
Dunnint look like a straight in.
Middle pic shows long final for the RW... did he forget he was straight in, then a desperate right turn to final for the freeway? On the Twitter, his right turn looked very slow ... recovery, then a second Stall then Spin, and done?
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From the information available the approach speed for this aircraft is in the region of 120KIAS +/- for conditions.
From the data available it was high on glide slope and fast all of the way down final so you could deduce from that the thrust would be at idle in an effort to get back on slope and correct the speed.
VFE 200KIAS for initial approach VLE200KIAS VFE 170 final approach.
Approach data distance from touchdown:
9nm 2575ft 192kias (below G/S)
7nm 2300ft 184kias (200ft above G/S)
5nm 1800ft 178kias (300ft above G/S should be considering a missed approach-too high too fast 58kts above approach speed)
4.3nm 1500ft 166kts (300ft high 46kts fast)
4nm 1250ft (50ft high 154kts appears like nose down manoeuvre to correct G/S, high rate of descent, when the aircraft should be stable in full approach config. 120KIAS )
Somewhere shortly after this stage I would think an attempted missed approach was made and the speed too fast for a stall. Thrust would be advanced from presumably idle to G/A thrust. The aircraft never stopped descending from this time and commenced a turn to the right. From this knowledge could we consider some sort of failure as thrust was increased? Did the right engine fail to produce expected thrust and was rudder not applied correctly for an asymmetric situation? The aircraft in the video supports this as the bank angle to the right went through 90 degrees and at impact was inverted. In my time as a check Captain on heavy jet I have seen more mistakes during handling a missed approach especially with an engine inoperative than on a take off with an engine failure at V1. The reason is that pilots on approach tend to be in landing mode rather than rehearsing a missed approach with a failure, of some sort, in their mind before landing. Just a thought!
From the data available it was high on glide slope and fast all of the way down final so you could deduce from that the thrust would be at idle in an effort to get back on slope and correct the speed.
VFE 200KIAS for initial approach VLE200KIAS VFE 170 final approach.
Approach data distance from touchdown:
9nm 2575ft 192kias (below G/S)
7nm 2300ft 184kias (200ft above G/S)
5nm 1800ft 178kias (300ft above G/S should be considering a missed approach-too high too fast 58kts above approach speed)
4.3nm 1500ft 166kts (300ft high 46kts fast)
4nm 1250ft (50ft high 154kts appears like nose down manoeuvre to correct G/S, high rate of descent, when the aircraft should be stable in full approach config. 120KIAS )
Somewhere shortly after this stage I would think an attempted missed approach was made and the speed too fast for a stall. Thrust would be advanced from presumably idle to G/A thrust. The aircraft never stopped descending from this time and commenced a turn to the right. From this knowledge could we consider some sort of failure as thrust was increased? Did the right engine fail to produce expected thrust and was rudder not applied correctly for an asymmetric situation? The aircraft in the video supports this as the bank angle to the right went through 90 degrees and at impact was inverted. In my time as a check Captain on heavy jet I have seen more mistakes during handling a missed approach especially with an engine inoperative than on a take off with an engine failure at V1. The reason is that pilots on approach tend to be in landing mode rather than rehearsing a missed approach with a failure, of some sort, in their mind before landing. Just a thought!
Thread Starter
fdr they did a straight in, no base. Thanks for looking up the stall speeds - never operated small bizjets, surprised to see their Vs doesn't change dramatically with flaps.
The change in the status of the aircraft was abrupt, which still suggests a major aerodynamic upset issue such as inadvertent lift dump deployment resulting in a tip stall and subsequent departure, or a medical event with the pilot, which seems remote, it appears there were probably 2 pilots.
FLAPS
Spoiler
Last edited by fdr; 20th Aug 2023 at 00:07. Reason: readability
Thread Starter
At the last, it was spinning, the inversion was almost complete.
So yes, Stalled....imo
That's not a long base, with a too tight turn to final?
Long downwind with a too tight turn to base?
Dunnint look like a straight in.
Middle pic shows long final for the RW... did he forget he was straight in, then a desperate right turn to final for the freeway? On the Twitter, his right turn looked very slow ... recovery, then a second Stall then Spin, and done?
So yes, Stalled....imo
That's not a long base, with a too tight turn to final?
Long downwind with a too tight turn to base?
Dunnint look like a straight in.
Middle pic shows long final for the RW... did he forget he was straight in, then a desperate right turn to final for the freeway? On the Twitter, his right turn looked very slow ... recovery, then a second Stall then Spin, and done?
What angle of bank do folk think this shows?
Clean stall 108 knots quoted above by fdr would give a stall at 153 knots with 60° angle of bank, physicus notes a speed of 144 knots prior to the descent. Spoilers come into effect at 10° of aileron input should that imply anything.
Clean stall 108 knots quoted above by fdr would give a stall at 153 knots with 60° angle of bank, physicus notes a speed of 144 knots prior to the descent. Spoilers come into effect at 10° of aileron input should that imply anything.
The aircraft in the video is not in an incipient spin or a developed spin, it is a lateral departure from normal controlled flight. You may wish to argue that point, but there is no evident yaw in the video, so incipient is unlikely, and developed spins exhibit rates of pitch roll and yaw at the same time, (unsteady may alter 1 or 2 of those momentarily as they reverse or are just unsteady). The recent C-152 accident on this forum gives a graphic demonstration on the incipient spin condition...
Pitching....Up, tightening the radius. Rolling, Right; Yaw, Right.
"Looks like". But just a ballistic, high speed trajectory, Spin. Not all Spins are vertical, or even (down, steep). One can be climbing steeply, and spinning....
Last edited by Concours77; 20th Aug 2023 at 00:50.
That track is the normal one from Langkawi to Subang, overhead Ipoh and onto the approach at CE, Caledonian. The approach and flight appear nominal all the way to the lateral excursion.
The change in the status of the aircraft was abrupt, which still suggests a major aerodynamic upset issue such as inadvertent lift dump deployment resulting in a tip stall and subsequent departure, or a medical event with the pilot, which seems remote, it appears there were probably 2 pilots.
FLAPS
The change in the status of the aircraft was abrupt, which still suggests a major aerodynamic upset issue such as inadvertent lift dump deployment resulting in a tip stall and subsequent departure, or a medical event with the pilot, which seems remote, it appears there were probably 2 pilots.
FLAPS
Spoiler
(middle pic)
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Just considering the video with no other info I see an airplane flying, clean( can't be sure, not enough pixels), not stalled, nose down, rolling right and maybe an "oh feces" pull at the end...I'm going with a spoiler/lift dump issue due to failure or mismanagement...My final answer...maybe ...
...
Just considering the video with no other info I see an airplane flying, clean( can't be sure, not enough pixels), not stalled, nose down, rolling right and maybe an "oh feces" pull at the end...I'm going with a spoiler/lift dump issue due to failure or mismanagement...My final answer...maybe ...
...I think he was madly trying to roll left, ailerons not effective... Rudder not effective... elevators not touched.
Pilot is making my case. No controls, not any effort to stop the roll or turn is visible, airframe totally ballistic... no attempt to arrest a 60 degree bank?