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You summed it up poorly there.
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What a typically arrogant and condescending post! Over the course of my working career I will earn hundreds of thousands less than a PP24 (a scale I knew nothing about untill joining BA), if you can give me one articulate reason as to why we are worth that much less than "A" scalers then I would be interested to here it. Furthermore why is it perfectly acceptable for some to shake every penny out of the BA money tree but for anyone joining over the last few years we should simply be happy to be employed?But hey providing you are all Ok we will keep our "petulant" teenage mouths shut!
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if you can give me one articulate reason as to why we are worth that much less than "A" scalers then I would be interested to here it. I don't think you'll find a single current BA pilot who likes that as it inevitably puts pressure on those on better rates. Let me paraphrase your statement and return it to you. If you can give me one articulate reason as to how current "A" scalers could retain those rates for all future joiners, then I would be interested to hear it. |
I recommend you try reflecting on the career you have, and how lucky you are to have it. As long as people are prepared to accept B, C and D (and presumably E, F and G) scale packages, Ts&Cs are only going to go one way. Seniority is a big part of the problem: it traps people and prevents them from efficiently taking their skills elsewhere, thereby applying downwards pressure on Ts&Cs. From a management perspective, why would they offer improved conditions, or even keep conditions the same if: a) people will continue to apply regardless, and b) nobody will leave anyway because they're trapped by seniority? |
This argument could go round in circles forever and it's not worth anyone's time doing that. My real point is this, I don't blame people for voting the way they did ultimately it would take an act of extreme generosity to give up your own terms and conditions to protect those of a bunch of people you have never met, I get that! But the union is supposed to be their to protect the industry not just a small group of select pilots. The futures of every single new pilot should never have been used as a bargaining chip in negotiations to protect the rights of a few. It was ultimately a very self serving thing to do from all involved which has ultimately devalued your own jobs as well as everyone else's. As I said I understand the reasons for voting that way and I doubt I would have done any different, but don't now pretend like we have nothing to complain about, you made a decision based on selfish reasons at least now have the balls to own that decision and not slag us off because we dared to question it. BA now has an A scale and a B scale and I find it hard to reconcile getting paid a lot less than other people to do the same job you may disagree and that is of course your right, but please don't call me a petulant child because I deared to highlight the injustice.
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I must say I'm pretty shocked reading some of this, this must be unprecedented, seeing this much anger directed at BA.
I'm getting the feeling, from the tone on here and chit chat I hear down route, that maybe some people shouldn't have left commands (or imminent command) at other, often perfectly good and respectable airlines to chase the BA dream. I was tempted myself for a while but then thought better of it! - I remembered the lessons I learned from older boys and girls - get your command and stay in that seat! I mean this in the nicest possible way, but maybe some of these guys should have gone off to the Middle East as DEC's if they really wanted the long haul 'dream'. |
Originally Posted by Enzo999
(Post 9805387)
What a typically arrogant and condescending post! Over the course of my working career I will earn hundreds of thousands less than a PP24 (a scale I knew nothing about untill joining BA), if you can give me one articulate reason as to why we are worth that much less than "A" scalers then I would be interested to here it. Furthermore why is it perfectly acceptable for some to shake every penny out of the BA money tree but for anyone joining over the last few years we should simply be happy to be employed?But hey providing you are all Ok we will keep our "petulant" teenage mouths shut!
I write this as a relatively new joiner. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is life here pretty much exactly as I expected it to be, both good and bad? Yes. Next time do your research. |
Another amazigly condescending post, somehow in all my preparation for interview I forgot to research historic pay scales, forgive me it's amazing they even offered me a job with such lack of prep. And what do you mean "next time"? You mean next time I interview for BA? All I am trying to say is that I am entitled to a view point without being called a petulant child or being spoken down to like a naughty teenager, wether you agree or not. End of my conversation on the subject!
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I think you will go through your career bitter and twisted. Time to get another job
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Like the majority of pilots
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Back onto the topic of recruitment I heard of a Flybe guy being hooked out of the hold pool recently and given a start date for a 777 course? Again something to please all the unfrozen guys & gals on the bus!
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]
He will hate flying to Barbados on a weekend. |
Originally Posted by HidekiTojo
(Post 9805084)
Go back to Ryanair then.
I didn't come from Ryanair. |
Originally Posted by RexBanner
(Post 9805631)
Back onto the topic of recruitment I heard of a Flybe guy being hooked out of the hold pool recently and given a start date for a 777 course? Again something to please all the unfrozen guys & gals on the bus!
Great news for those being fished out of the pool, especially against the backdrop of the recent Flybe results. Not so good for those being flogged to death on short haul looking to move on. |
Originally Posted by 2 Whites 2 Reds
(Post 9805714)
Another charmer. :D
I didn't come from Ryanair. |
Words fail me!
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I got a holdpool email update about 3 weeks ago or so saying no change to email received in Jan. One in Jan said no more DEP's in 2017. Has something completely different occurred with regards to their plans and executing (plucking people out the pool) in 3 weeks??
That 180 happened quick. |
Originally Posted by HidekiTojo
(Post 9805829)
Flybe then or wherever it was I'll guarantee you were earning way less than you are now for doing the exact same job. So quit whining. If Ba isn't good enough for you then I suggest a different career because really it doesn't get any better.
You've mistaken my comments regarding the degradation of T's and C's that have adversely affected those at the bottom disproportionately as mere whining and your attitude is pretty pompous quite frankly. Big picture wise, I'm happy at BA. But it doesn't mean I'm not allowed to question the removal of some very big chunks of my T's and C's which have been very costly. Maybe redirect your aggression away from your fellow colleagues and towards the consistent pokes and prods at our T's and C's as a workforce. Just a thought. |
If Ba isn't good enough for you then I suggest a different career because really it doesn't get any better. |
Originally Posted by VJW
(Post 9805895)
Have T&C's been romoved from people, or are they just worse then they were previously. If the latter is the case, then no one forced you
Some of this pay is of course recovered but being junior means that you're largely unable to affect your roster and therefore have limited say over how much of that money you actually recover. That's not a grumble, just a fact. Bidline has also been voted out in favour of the new (and largely unknown) JSS system, which is currently under construction and trial. No one really know what this will look like but from what I've read it appears to be a completely opaque preference system with an emphasis on optimisation of flight crew. Note I've not mentioned the different Pay Point scales as the updated version was introduced before I joined and therefore have no right to complain, as you rightly say. I should add that the loss of FPA and Bidline was democratic across the BA flight crew community and as such I accept the result. But it doesn't mean I have to like it. |
Originally Posted by VJW
(Post 9805895)
Have T&C's been romoved from people, or are they just worse then they were previously. If the latter is the case, then no one forced you
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Apologies if anyone thought I was calling them a teenager - I guess I picked a poor analogy. I was suggesting you had the characteristic of believing more senior guys don't know what it like to be junior, and that they didn't have worse terms and conditions than their predecessors. I wasn't suggesting you were like Harry Enfield's Kevin and Perry. I also pointed out that I have pretty much always voted against the BALPA recommendation - that includes pp34 and the introduction of BARP for pilots. I wasn't involved in the JSS vote with the loss of the FPA because I wasn't eligible to vote.
You don't appear to be very happy with your career move into BA though, and I think you're only going to feel more and more upset about it, unless you can somehow make yourself consider all the good stuff and think a bit more positively about everything. That's just my opinion, because I know I couldn't go through life being quite so angry all of the time. |
The condescension occurring here might be from a real BA pilot. It might be just a bit of manager 'agitation'. However if you are real.... I've got to say whoever hides behind the Hideki Toji pseudonym, that your pomposity is off the scale.
I say that as someone who IS senior, who HAS been junior, and has reached pp24. Stop being so embarrassing to the rest of us. The newbies have taken a hit for the incumbents since before I joined. They have EVERY right to question that. But as I said. Might be a management Wind up of what is now over 50% of our colleagues on BARP. Or a growing number on PP34 (perhaps one day they'll kick us senior boys so hard, we'll all be retired by Christmas. Posts like yours will certainly fuel that motion!) So show a bit of respect. |
Right Engine, couldn't have said it better if I tried. Thank you!
GS-Alpha - No apology necessary but I'm not sure who you were referring to re being angry. I can assure you I'm not angry. That's a very unhealthy way to be in this game as you rightly point out. Disappointed and frustrated to see my T's and C's being hacked away at within 5 minutes of signing on the dotted line for nothing really in return, absolutely. But angry, no. I do consider all of the good points, of which there are many, but I refuse to ignore the negatives, which have also been more significant of late. I've worked in other airlines and had another professional career before flying. I'm a normal bloke from a middle class family that spent many years paying off a very large flight training loan. No silver spoon teenager here I can assure you. |
So.....are they now taking people from the hold pool or not?
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This is tedious. I joined Cathay on B scale and I've been a bottom feeder with Big Airways for a long time. No-one forced me to accept either position.
Back to the topic - are they hiring or not? |
Originally Posted by HidekiTojo
(Post 9805829)
Flybe then or wherever it was I'll guarantee you were earning way less than you are now for doing the exact same job. So quit whining. If Ba isn't good enough for you then I suggest a different career because really it doesn't get any better.
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Flybe then or wherever it was I'll guarantee you were earning way less than you are now for doing the exact same job. So quit whining. Without even adjusting for inflation, BA is the lowest paid flying job I've ever had. But I look at the bigger picture and I am much happier here than anywhere I've been before. Money ain't everything. |
The futures of every single new pilot should never have been used as a bargaining chip in negotiations to protect the rights of a few. It was ultimately a very self serving thing to do from all involved which has ultimately devalued your own jobs as well as everyone else's. As I said I understand the reasons for voting that way and I doubt I would have done any different, but don't now pretend like we have nothing to complain about, you made a decision based on selfish reasons at least now have the balls to own that decision and not slag us off because we dared to question it. You say you understand the reasons we voted for PP34. If that is the case, please tell me what the alternative was. And what would have happened next had we voted the other way. |
Originally Posted by JaxofMarlow
(Post 9806423)
Are you for real ? The arrogance, stupidity and rudeness of your posts are unbelievable. If you can offer guarantees as daft as this one I hope I never fly with you.
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Its also worth bearing in mind the environment the "new guys" operate in these days.
I'm closer to 50 than 40. Bought my first house for ~£55K in the 90's when my starting salary was ~£35K. Ratio: 0.63 Scale that upwards to today where the average cost of housing in my postcode is now ~£740K. I ought to be making £466K if my earnings had kept pace with house price inflation. How much would I need in my pension pot to get what the retired 777 BA pilot opposite me gets...as a pension? £3million perhaps? Many of the Senior guys in my Company argue "they've been there, done that" but, making a gross generalisation, the Golden Years of aviation are no longer so golden. Many of them also say they know what it was like to be made redundant. But when pressed, their redundancy experience lasted days, and a quick phone call had them walking into another job, in some cases, on the same day as their redundancy! I've been redundant 3 times in my career and during the last experience which lasted 7 months, had to look as far afield as China in an attempt to try and get a job. Having said all that, I'm happy with my lot, but the arguments for seniority in this day and age, I no longer have any sympathy for. They're a relic of a bygone age where you worked for one airline for the duration of your career and, IMO, dramatically hold down terms and conditions. |
Originally Posted by Enzo999
(Post 9805387)
if you can give me one articulate reason as to why we are worth that much less than "A" scalers
We live in a world where P2F dictates the entry point for pilots and BA competes with both low-cost airlines and the ME carriers. The pay and conditions for all of us has deteriorated relative to previous generations and the votes (arguably poorly managed and/or presented admittedly) which have led to a different pension scheme and starter rates were simply unavoidable. Those of us who have been with the airline for many years have seen some tough times and campaigned hard for the best T&Cs possible so to hear such negativity from those who've just joined is a little sad at best. You really cannot blame the "senior" pilots for the interminable race to the bottom in the airline industry. In fact, i'd argue that the reverse is true! Had BA pilots not shown a pragmatic approach and been willing to accept change would BA have been in a position to recruit onto the mainline seniority list. And the argument holds true that if you've just joined without knowledge of BLR's and T&Cs, and are very disappointed, then now is the time to leave before becoming truly embittered. |
Originally Posted by SR71
(Post 9807354)
the arguments for seniority in this day and age, I no longer have any sympathy for. They're a relic of a bygone age where you worked for one airline for the duration of your career and, IMO, dramatically hold down terms and conditions.
What you really wanted was a DEC with a decent company on good pay. Have you considered Norwegian? Good luck with that! |
Originally Posted by SR71
(Post 9807354)
Its also worth bearing in mind the environment the "new guys" operate in these days.
I'm closer to 50 than 40. Bought my first house for ~£55K in the 90's when my starting salary was ~£35K. Ratio: 0.63 Scale that upwards to today where the average cost of housing in my postcode is now ~£740K. I ought to be making £466K if my earnings had kept pace with house price inflation. How much would I need in my pension pot to get what the retired 777 BA pilot opposite me gets...as a pension? £3million perhaps? Many of the Senior guys in my Company argue "they've been there, done that" but, making a gross generalisation, the Golden Years of aviation are no longer so golden. Many of them also say they know what it was like to be made redundant. But when pressed, their redundancy experience lasted days, and a quick phone call had them walking into another job, in some cases, on the same day as their redundancy! I've been redundant 3 times in my career and during the last experience which lasted 7 months, had to look as far afield as China in an attempt to try and get a job. Having said all that, I'm happy with my lot, but the arguments for seniority in this day and age, I no longer have any sympathy for. They're a relic of a bygone age where you worked for one airline for the duration of your career and, IMO, dramatically hold down terms and conditions. |
I'm a recent joiner (20 months) from a well known regional - I'm also 48 and have a 12 year old daughter.
It has been my ambition to fly for BA from the age of 6 and I've suffered all sorts of challenges along the way to get here including years as a turboprop FO, funding my training and ending up with a mortgage I may never pay off. While I worked a proportion of weekends in my previous airline the big difference I found when coming to BA was that I was not just working an early shift and coming home for bike rides and dinner with the family but was being sent away on a Thursday to tour Europe and coming home on Monday to sit at home in the house by myself until Thursday when I went back to work. After 14 consecutive weekends like this last year and feeling that my daughter in particular was growing up without me I decided to find a way to make BA work for me. A very nice ex BMI skipper I was flying with said to me one day he felt exactly like I did until he went part time so took his advice and went 75%. It's made a massive difference to my family life, my happiness and my enjoyment of the job. I now earn about what I was earning at my previous employer but work a lot less days. Due to the 40% tax band, NI, less wear and tear on the car, less shoe leather I'm not out of pocket by that much and its a no-brainer. I'm now guaranteed a weekend off every month plus time around it to pursue hobbies. I don't blame the guys who came before me on the better terms and conditions - they were given their contract and I accepted mine. I get to stay in some interesting places in great hotels, I'm paid pretty well for a guy who does 12 days work a month and I've met some fab people and my guitar playing is coming along a treat. Overall I'm just happy to be here. No amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to change BA, you've got to come here, embrace it and make it work for you and your family. Right enough from me! I'm on a layover somewhere hot with a pool and I'd better get down there for a swim. I'm flying back tomorrow morning, should be home by lunchtime to see my daughter come in from school and then I'm into nine days of part time week. BA is what you make it! Think about it. |
Originally Posted by Desk-pilot
(Post 9807415)
I'm a recent joiner (20 months) from a well known regional - I'm also 48 and have a 12 year old daughter.
It has been my ambition to fly for BA from the age of 6 and I've suffered all sorts of challenges along the way to get here including years as a turboprop FO, funding my training and ending up with a mortgage I may never pay off. While I worked a proportion of weekends in my previous airline the big difference I found when coming to BA was that I was not just working an early shift and coming home for bike rides and dinner with the family but was being sent away on a Thursday to tour Europe and coming home on Monday to sit at home in the house by myself until Thursday when I went back to work. After 14 consecutive weekends like this last year and feeling that my daughter in particular was growing up without me I decided to find a way to make BA work for me. A very nice ex BMI skipper I was flying with said to me one day he felt exactly like I did until he went part time so took his advice and went 75%. It's made a massive difference to my family life, my happiness and my enjoyment of the job. I now earn about what I was earning at my previous employer but work a lot less days. Due to the 40% tax band, NI, less wear and tear on the car, less shoe leather I'm not out of pocket by that much and its a no-brainer. I'm now guaranteed a weekend off every month plus time around it to pursue hobbies. I don't blame the guys who came before me on the better terms and conditions - they were given their contract and I accepted mine. I get to stay in some interesting places in great hotels, I'm paid pretty well for a guy who does 12 days work a month and I've met some fab people and my guitar playing is coming along a treat. Overall I'm just happy to be here. No amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to change BA, you've got to come here, embrace it and make it work for you and your family. Right enough from me! I'm on a layover somewhere hot with a pool and I'd better get down there for a swim. I'm flying back tomorrow morning, should be home by lunchtime to see my daughter come in from school and then I'm into nine days of part time week. BA is what you make it! Think about it. DP |
Originally Posted by BitMoreRightRudder
(Post 9807334)
Fair enough Enzo.
You say you understand the reasons we voted for PP34. If that is the case, please tell me what the alternative was. And what would have happened next had we voted the other way. |
It might not be for everyone but there are options. I took the decision years ago to hold on to the house (4 bed detached £650k) despite not having the level of income required to support it when I left a well paid IT career to fly. That meant an interest only mortgage, even adding to the mortgage during the lean years.
I think on balance with the rise in property prices that's been a sensible decision. If I'd moved to a smaller property in order to remain on a repayment mortgage or even sold up to pay for Oxford in cash I'd be unable to afford such a house now even on a full time BA salary given the ludicrous house prices in the South East. If I never pay another penny off it I could still sell up and buy a decent home outside the South East with the £300k+ of equity. The point is when you have kids you only get one shot at being there for them and you only get one shot at life. Spending your whole time at work to acquire wealth you may never spend is futile. I'm certainly not suggesting that I have all the answers, just that many many people spend their whole life maximising their earnings and miss what's important and what makes them happy whoever you work for. I have a Brother in law who is a very successful corporate coach - one of the things he said to me is that people spend more time thinking about which new sofa to buy or what TV or car to get than really thinking about what makes them happy in life and how they might achieve it. I'm only seeking to give a different approach to the 'must earn as much as I can' model. If I'd wanted to be rich I would have stayed in IT but I'm very very glad I didn't! I'd be sitting in a stuffy office right now writing project plans instead of sitting by a pool! |
Any evidence? With P2F, lowcost and ME airlines threatening pay and job security I suggest the majority of pilots would much prefer the seniority system to some vague meritocracy based on............ what exactly. What you really wanted was a DEC with a decent company on good pay. Have you considered Norwegian? Good luck with that! You didn't read my post did you? I'm happy with my lot but not the system. At the point I'm not, I'll jump... There's some good perspective on this thread. But I'd take my chances any day with a meritocracy or a "meet the requirement" paradigm. I've no idea why pilots think they're a special case in this respect. None of the "pro" arguments advanced are unique to the industry. But then again, if you'd not worked in another Sector, you wouldn't know would you.... |
All seniority in BA gets you is the opportunity to change fleets/seats when your number comes up. You still have to pass - and a number don't.
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