Lovely post CB. and like you, its seems, are a massive fan of Jaws! I cant get enough of it, and can recite whole chunks of the film!

Favourite line... You're gonna need a bigger boat....

It only took me 23 years to get a Command in BA (in 1995).....:)

Chief Brody posted...

"I think you'd be mad to grab a short haul command at the first opportunity as there is so much to explore within the BA framework".

I have to agree....

I've just been told that I have a LGW command in September after just over 4 years in the company... After a long Chat with the wife, friends & family I've decided to turn down the offer. Some reading my decision may think I'm mad but serveral reasons come into play...

The phrase 'only Bid for what you want' couldn't be more true in my case. The bid was put in May 14 before SH became as tough as it is becoming, at the time I would have grabbed it with open arms. That's not to say I hate SH but I don't want to commit to another 5 years when I need to give BA LH a go first.

By turning down a course normally you could expect a 5 year freeze on your current type, but a once in a lifetime offer has been granted to anyone who didn't originally get an 'OK' bid to be frozen till the end of the training year (Dec 31st). I'm frozen until then anyway for a change of type so won't affect my LH bid next year. Being completely honest I'didn't think it would get to my 'Juniority' so was no harm sticking the commedy bid in as it was all acheademic! I should have 'only bid for what I really wanted'! I won't make the same mistake in the future... You have to be happy to accept all the course you bid for! I hold my hands up, I made a mistake!

We moved half an hour up the M40 in Feb so driving to LGW 19-20 days a month would be a hard commute, yes there are a couple of layovers but not enough to make it regular. Again this wasn't quite the case last year & on the 737. Hopefully starting a family too so other priorities. When one day I do get a command I want & should give it 110%. Not worth getting cat C'd early on in your career, if not only for your personal pride.

Normally in any other company I would agree with the 'always take any command offered to you' but BA is different. I enjoy being an FO, obviously there's always a chain of Command but I really do feel part of the team at work. My sector is my sector & unless I'm wanting to do something crazy or dangerous 99% of Skippers let you get on with it. There is certainly no rush just to get to any Left seat opportunity! I'd say one of BA's best attributes when flying as an FO on the line. Makes the job easy!

But the biggest reason for me is this..... It would be great to have a command now but I'm at least 20 years from a LH command so staying SH for this amount of time scares the hell out of me... Not because I hate it but I think I would need a Change so the noggin doesn't freeze! Or the other option is to give up the Command which being Honnest with myself I don't think I'm strong enough to do!

The other elephant in the room is why has LGW Command gone so Junior.... There is always a reason & I think many are slowly waking up as to why... I'm not sure of all the reasons but the 3000 plus senior to me can't all be missing the point!

If your thinking about BA it is a great place to work! It's a great time to join & there is plenty of opportunities for everyone. Yes you may have to do 5 years on SH but that's not too bad considering most will probably have a 25-35 year career ahead of them. As I've said before it's not everyone's cup of tea but you can make it work for you. The job security is like no thrive ever experienced in other airlines... I accept LOCO's are also great in this respect! Yes it's not as good as it used to be but it's far better than my previous 2 companies even with the recent changes! Unfortunately some of my colleagues don't realise that. I do think the rate of change is a bit unhealthy but it's the same in all airlines.

Best of Luck to those who are applying!

Rgds BASHLH.

BASHLH

Thanks for I think being quite brave in sharing your thoughts with us. As you rightly pointed out there are times when family and personal life is more important than bidding for command. Hope it works out for you.

Lead

They are being made aware...despite that it seems from discussion elsewhere that there's a least one individual (Long hauler) who has recently discovered his roster has been massaged to the extent that it contains only three clear days at home in the whole of July. Certainly some have found that if you have a month fully available to the company (no leave/DFW) and are not an appointment holder then "cunning bidding" provides no protection whatever from a major roster rewrite and loss of desired day(s) off.

The rule set has changed forever. Hopefully recruitment ( that's where a lot of you guys come in) will reduce the scale of the problems some people are trying to cope with at the moment, but what we certainly won't see is a return to the status quo ante otherwise known as "Bidline".

Roster assign was the brainchild of at least one of our Canadian commuting BALPA guys (despite various unofficial polls being strongly against the idea). It was his belief that a pilot would have a bit more time to swap such a trip to a more suitable date when compared to the old forced draft, and therefore it was better. The thing is, EOT swapping is now so restrictive that it's nigh on impossible to swap that additional trip, and you haven't got any space left on your line to swap it to anyway! It does however mean that the company can now tell a pilot to go jump when they say they can't do the trip due to childcare, because they've had plenty of time to sort something. This means the company can rely on the work being covered using the system, and they can therefore run with far fewer pilots. In my opinion, roster assign is the equivalent detriment to BA pilots as all of the changes we've experienced in the last 15 years all added together!

No, apart from some (all?) of the trainers.

The reason generally given by those in the know is that it's down to costs/scheduling of any required differences course and then costs of maintaining recency and scheduling between the two. As a result the company believe that it's financially more efficient to run the fleets separately for the line guys, rather than combine. Once the 787 fleet is up to size it will be a significant fleet in it's own right so I guess the company POV may well be valid.

That said there has beeen a request for some of the 787 pilots with previous 777 time to come back to the 77 this summer due to workload on the fleet...not sure if they got any takers..

So in summary, BA is a great place to work if you have sufficient coping strategies in place - buy a Ford Fiesta, don't upgrade your Casio watch, enjoy your own company and join Netflix (because you'd rather be watching a movie on duty than be at home with your family). All TIC of course! However, these are not really unique selling points that are going to attract experienced professional pilots.


I agree completely with GS-Alpha's post above re: RA. The same group of commuting BALPA reps are currently busy trying to convince BA to get an alleviation to EASA FTLs regarding back-to-back trips. The price to pay for the rest of the community will be to allow BA to RA back-to-back trips. (My understanding is that reps cannot be RA'd). So once again, less chance of getting that 1 day off that you need.


Smooth Airperator - with regards to turning down courses, well I did it myself years ago so why not? It's a sellers market right now. One thing to remember though, is that BA can, have and will move people between fleets within their first 5 years. I have flown with F/Os who joined on the 777 only to be told on day 1 of groundschool that they were now going to the A320. Wherever you end up your first 5 years will race by and you'll still progress up the master seniority list. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

I prefer Roster Assign to the old Forced Draft. As do most of the silent majority.

And I'm not Canadian!

It just goes to show we're all different.

LD

:ok: Feel better about joining now. Cheers guys!

3 or 4 excellent and detailed posts over the last 2 pages. Thank you guys very useful to get such insights.

It seems to me the short haul roster is the elephant in the room in terms of problems in the airline making SH an unhappy place with command getting very junior as people prefer to escape to LH. The short haul roster also seems to be the main stumbling point for potential would be applicants.! I gather many easyjet pilots won't touch BA primary due to the state of BA short haul operations (not the slower command).

But my question is, why is short haul so disorganised? With all aircraft operating primarily out of one base I would have imagined it would be easy to be efficient. I don't understand why there are regular aircraft changes, cabin crew changes, long turnarounds etc. I struggle to see how unions can be solely to blame for aircraft changes and poorly constructed "slings" around Europe. Coming from a low cost background it screams out poor efficiency and poor crew/aircraft utilisation. All this means time on the ground, which normally means less money and less profit.

How long have you got?

I think a lot of it is generally explained away down to the need to integrate Short Haul Ops with the Long Haul Stuff and the whys of wherefores of not being a point to point operation. Some would say there's no point in banging out 4 quick sectors for efficiencies sake that don't "fit" with the long haul programme, not sure that's true but certainly that's what's said.

IMHO many would agree the union's shouldn't completely carry the can for all of this... OTOH you mentioned the frequent Cabin Crew changes..well, less said :oh:

OTOH... then there's also the sheer built inefficency of operating out of LHR, holding, etc.....

Oh did I mention management's role in the above ..... :uhoh:

Smooth Airperator...

Pretty Ballsy what you posted. You have to make your own decision but this yarn might help you decide.

Going back a few years, but here goes:

1974, turns down a S/O position to await F/O position. Three weeks later the downturn hits all courses cancelled.... He was told as soon as hiring resumes he would be on course.

1978 "Remember Me"... "Yes, Sorry too old."

Laws changed re age discrimination, gets hired in 1985 as a S/O.... Retires as a LH wide body F/O rather than a LH wide body Captain. Pension could have been 30 years based on his best five years at Captains pay instead, maybe 20 based on F/O pay

Does not take a genius to figure out the financial and seniority loss.

PS.... He also took a 2 year layoff in the early 90's....

Locked door - I'm curious, but on what basis can you claim that the silent majority PREFER roster/force assign?! That s a pretty bold claim, particularly as the majority are silent. I ve been FAd 4 times and know plenty of others who ve been Fd over......:confused::\

Absolutely, Sid, Roster Assign is definitely a backward step for me each and every month. Final final rosters are so late that arranging childcare is a nightmare. In 10 years I've never been Force Assigned but every month the spectre of Roster Assign rears its head. Furthermore, with RA it is now almost impossible to guarantee a day off so everyone bids high, works harder, less time off etc etc etc. Not sure how Locked Door knows that the "silent majority" thinks if they're that silent.

This is an interesting post, and some excellent information given by Chief Brody and Wiggy.

Its funny, since leaving education and spending 11 years working in industry doing so called 'normal jobs', BA is really no different from any other company I have ever worked for. They all want more for less, drive down the T's and C's over time and dont seem to have any regard for looking after its employees to motivate them. Sadly, like a lot of things in life, making as much money as possible seems to be the driving factor.

I joined BA from Bmi in 2012 with the IAG transition and have seen a lot of change in those 3 years. As much as I enjoyed Bmi, towards the end I was always looking over my shoulder wondering what Lufthansa were going to do next. I have found the job security element in BA to be refreshing and positive. Since I have been in BA there have been around 400 new joiners, DEP's onto long haul, and there are one hell of a lot of command courses going through at the moment, to which some of my old friends/colleagues from Bmi are being promoted. Its great to see the guys in the crew room with there new jackets!

I think there is a lot to be said for the opinions you will get from people in this thread. Guys, through no fault of their own, that have been in BA for 20 plus years, will certainly have a different outlook of what is good and what is bad, purely down to the fact is they do no know any different. Coming from a slightly different angle myself, I dont think it is a bad place to be. There is a lot of opportunity within the airline if you want it. Even though the company have put restrictions on our swapping system, I have found crewing to be flexible and helpful where they can to satisfy your requests. I was force assigned for the first time this month, but in all fairness its the first time I have been done in 12 months and am taking one for the team.

With regard to the CC, 9 times out of 10, I found them to be fine. I try and treat people as I wish to be treated, and the majority of the time the guys and gals to to be receptive to that. I found it quite amusing when I first joined the horror on peoples faces when I took the time to visit the back of the aircraft to introduce myself, it came across of not being the 'done thing'. Its been mentioned already, but a lot of time all the crews you fly with throughout the day are all doing different things, even within their own team, so night stops are often spent with your colleague, or on your own.

In a nutshell, I dont think BA is a bad place to be, however I am easily satisfied.

If you do decide to join, I hope you enjoy it.

From what I can see rostering is a mess. Guys are getting pulled off flight because they are hitting 900hrs or are out of the rolling 28day limit etc.

I thought I best check my yearly rolling total because I feel pretty tired and ground down........727 :eek: I think I will just continue to hide where I am in the hope that rostering don't find me anytime soon. PS....full time

10% ish of the p2 Airbus fleet were force assigned trips this month

When I tried to apply on the website, it says the job offer is no longer open. Have I missed the window?

Skornogr4phy, I believe the last extension was to the 24th of June. Sorry buddy!

This may be a stupid question, but isn't it better to have at least a week's notice to arrange your childcare than no notice at all?

Megaton

A common and I guess justified observation.

For those that don't know what some are complaining about: Under the new system for most fleets the July rosters were finally finalised :ooh: on or around the the 23rd/24th June. Until then anyone on a fulltime month with no pre-existing duties (e.g Sims) or leave/Duty Free Weeks in the month had absolutely zero visibility of their guaranteed days off in July.

Anson

The old system of being nabbed at short notice (Draft Assign) allowed a bit of wriggle room and an opportunity to avoid if you really had to be at home over the days in question. That avenue has been closed and that seems to be causing some very real problems.

Still, what ho, nothing ventured etc etc.

As long as the Canadian resident BALPA rep is OK, that should be enough to quell any dissent.

What are the odds on him being in management inside the year? Short, I would suggest.

The biggest problem with the new system is that it enables BA to force overtime on a pilot even though they are already working above CAP. It basically prevents anyone from daring to try to have a bit of time off in one go. Yes you might be lucky and get away with it, but the likelihood is that you will not. Blind lines on long haul with the rules of a minimum of two days off between trips are basically gone, because they just build the roster according to that rule and then adjust it as they see fit once that rule no longer applies at the roster assign phase. Frankly, I don't even know why they bother to produce the final roster for blind line holders. Why tell someone what they could have had under the old system, only to take it away from them a few days later? I was force drafted a fair few times (met at aircraft for work the following day), and I've been roster assigned a fair few times too. I far preferred the old system with a little fear factor after the odd flight, rather than the fear factor every time you make an alteration to a bid; trying to second guess the best strategy to get that one day off you need. Plus this new system allows BA to employ considerably fewer pilots. It really must be a dream come true for them. How else do you think they can afford clash and protect and more!

To add insult to injury, it is now the case that if you volunteer to pick up overtime from EOT, you get paid more than twice what someone who has been forced to work will be paid (clash and protect having become the new norm).

If the majority are happy with this new system then I'd be happier, but I don't believe it to be the case.

If your reps are not representing you, which by the sounds of it they are not (losing ground during the leverage period of an experienced pilot shortage), remove them instead of complaining.

So when you wriggled out of a draft assigned trip, presumably someone with less good excuses would pick it up?
I'm not trying to be flippant btw - just trying to understand the issues.

Guys, while I find all the imputs very good and useful, to me this thread was to understand wether a pilot with a good (enough) job should consider a move to BA. And I think the answer is quite clear...
Great to live modest, to make the best of it, no fancy watches and cars, but if I'm honest I see this has little to do with joining BA.. 900 hrs is 900 hrs no matter the paint scheme or the type of metal.
If in need of a (good) job though, well that's a whole different story.

All the best

Well I for one prefer the new system. The old system was fine, if it was used as intended - infrequently and only in exceptional circumstances...

However this wasn't the case at all. It was a constant worry every day when leaving work.
Some of us couldn't use the childcare excuse, and therefore were the ones to pick up the work, despite having holidays, anniversaries, partners birthdays etc. planned...

There are some horror stories of people being called when abroad, only to be forced to return to the UK the next day to work, as they answered their phone by "mistake"

The new system is very similar to every other airline that has a random rostering system. You can request a preference for days off, but you can't be certain until the roster is out.
Good airlines normally publish the roster 2 weeks before the end of the month, but some will delay it to a week before.
So if only BA could speed up the process, then our system would be no different to most other airlines.

It is a great shame the bidline is no longer as it used to be, but everybody needs to know that when they are rostered a day off, that it is indeed a day off.

We can only hope that, when BA has recruited enough, that Forced Assign will be less frequent. Otherwise as I have said before, part-time seems to be the only viable option, if you want a decent life outside work.

I'm a bit confused by this Forced Assign concept, are they forcing you to work a day off, or is this only the case if you answer the phone by mistake?

The company 'sells' the months work to the pilot community and we, through bidding, agree to achieve the flying programme.

Some people bid high for high credit months and some people bid low. There are always some uncovered trips for which there are those who don't achieve their selected bid or don't place a bid, otherwise known as 'blindline' holders. The company constructs the blindlines from the remaining trips and then allocates them to the blind line holders after both bidding stages are completed.

The new 'Force Assign' stage takes any uncovered trips after stage 1 and stage 2 and the blind line construction and allocates them to pilots who have not achieved CAP and have the space for the uncovered work on their line. Failing this a given trip line may be wiped for favour of work coverage.

The upshot is that, in days gone past, you could bid for a line and be allocated the trip line thus knowing what you were getting about 3 weeks in advance. You could, with hours of unpaid overtime in your 'bank' bid low for a month using a 'bank' withdrawl to get time off thus leading to flexibility and work life balance.

That has all now disappeared. Even with a CAP line you can be force assigned, a process which appears about 10 days before the end of the month.

Once the rosters are published they are, generally, set in stone and a very lively swapping culture exists leading to you often swapping half the month out for more beneficial trips.

Not an ideal solution in my opinion.

If the briefing given at the Gatwick roadshow is correct, there is a lot of fresh blood coming into Shorthaul - 311 hired thus far this year, expected 350-360 total, and the same next year. Extra numbers will surely make a big difference?

To the BA people whinging about roster assign. Go and work for a gulf carrier for a couple of months for a reality check. You have no idea how good you have it.

Locked Door,

Yes, it may be worse elsewhere and BALPA does like to remind us on SH that we could have become Vueling but you are missing the point. BA needs 700+ pilots over the next 2 years. Emirates need 400 pilots this year. Cathay needs 350+ pilots this year. There is finally some competition in the market so the airlines will need to up their game or park aircraft.

Locked Door,

Although I appreciate your comment I feel it is unfair to make such a statement on this thread. BA have finally admitted to having too few pilots, force draft was horrendous and roster assign isn't much better. The ability to bid for, and achieve, a roster has been taken away from us so is very significant.

With regard to ME comparissons, how about the comparrison of the figure in the bottom right hand corner of your pay slip each month?

You can't have it both ways!

You might just find there's not much difference to the bottom right corner. The desert isn't what it used to be, poor accommodation, bullying management, 1200+ hours per year, I could go on.

Talk to any DEP (as I do) and you'll find the grass isn't greener on the other side. I for one prefer RA to DA, as I suspect do the silent majority. The personal attacks on our reps is beneath contempt, and not appropriate for this thread (or anywhere).

LD

Thanks Wilberstrum

Gs-alpha, narrow runway et al......

There are NO BALPA reps commuting from Canada just by constantly referring to them doesn't make it true and neither can I envisage any of the reps EVER going into Management.....

I am NOT a rep and have no personal connection to any of them but sick and tired of anonymous trolling trying to push their own agenda.

I have 20 years in BA out of 37 years in the Airline industry. It still the best gig there is but it will never be the same as even in recent years. The majority of those I work with are still happy to be working for BA but it's definitely changed and you will have to accept that. The BALPA reps I genuinely believe do their very best to slow the tide of bad changes not for their own personal agendas but for the common good. How they continue with the barrage of ignorant vitriol amazes me.

Working life isn't anywhere near as bad as you read on here and it's a natural selection to have those most miserable to be on a forum such as this where they can bitch and moan anonymously without any come back.

BA is most definitely not what it was I agree..... But look at the alternatives.?

ATB Toro.

NOT management or BALPA REP just a regular line pilot....

Toro,

At least one BALPA rep is currently commuting from Canada unless his phone number and contact details are out of date. Another rep commutes from the U.S.

Megaton

No matter where they commute from, I don't think anyone in BALPA doubts their dedication to the cause. The time and effort expended by the reps in general, and by the Head Office Team of the BACC in particular, is immense, and not worthy of the snide remarks being made. Without them and their efforts the lot of the BA pilot would doubtless be much worse.

The very fact that the pilot strength in BA is 4000 and growing is testament in no small part to the way that they have picked a path through the minefield of the last decade.

Sounds like the tables have turned completely at mainline. Sad to see in many respects. Those ex Hamble type characters who were able to chuck it all in at 55 must be sighing a great sigh of relief. What an industry!

I see some of the 'Ra Ra' girls have migrated over from the Ba company forum :rolleyes: give me strength.....it was bad enough over there trying to post a point of view contary to that of Jo and the rest of the polit bureau. Please don't for one minute think you can come over here and start silencing criticism of and discontent with, the current bidding process/work coverage measures...:ok:

I think the backlash against the BALPA reps is more to do with the realisation that many of them aren't sharing the pain of the many recent changes to Bidline.
Added to that is the suspicion that some are making serious amounts of money in overtime through "clash and protect". I don't doubt that some of the reps are in the job for the right reasons,however, I think it is recognised that some are merely the other side of the coin to our flight ops managers, and have more in common with them than they do the line pilots.
Personally, I only see this all ending in tears, whether a company falling apart under the strain, or a big smoking hole in the ground.