All,

I understand the 737 is nearly finished and it wouldn't be for entry onto that, but I was pondering more the 777/747 especially for guys with lots of hours (I have 5000+). Managing about 9 days off a month at the moment and going from earlies to lates mid duty-cycle, with at times less than 62 hours rest between 6 consecutive runs does not make for good rest planning!

Wiggy

Surely you must be over-egging your pudding. The LH rosters given here look tranquil and serene when compared to the back2back2back2back2back2back rosters some of your colleagues seem to manage with absolutely no problem at all! (whilst commuting from far far away!):eek:

Get a grip man!

EMB-145LR

Probably worthy of a thread in itself but the answer is (IMHO): Absolutely not, if anything for many it's on course to get worse.


4468

Ahhh ...have you been reading another Forum :oh:...

I'm pretty sure ;) that the colleague involved must be very very very senior and certainly wouldn't be doing it with a string of East Coast 3 dayers. In any event EASA is going to put paid to most B2Bs in the not too distant future, reducing the ability to swap/trade trips to produce a more "commuter friendly" roster, something anyone planning on living outside the London Area needs to factor into their decision making.

It's a fair cop, I promise I'll try :ok:

Just had the inevitable PFO

Rated and current on the 744/8, 5500 hours on type. ex GSS.

God alone knows what they are looking for. Not me obviously.:ugh:

Looks like the dole queue after xmas...:(

The problem "BA pilots" face is that the company are attempting (reasonably successfully) to reduce the T&Cs of one third of BA pilots (SH) down to the likes of Easy.

However, still on my first marriage and with well over 20 years now in BA I've probably had my career. Work/life balance is not an issue, and with something approaching £2million pounds in a SIPP, I don't need to worry too much that my end is not yet known. Though I accept the airline world is not what it once was for any of us, and certainly for those starting out. That's a shame, but it is no fault of mine! I have done nothing to hasten the career's demise, other than to have been present to witness it!

I hope you enjoy Easy as much as I enjoyed BA you bitter little man.

Exceptional? How would I know. It's not a topic of conversation at work.

Rich wife? Ha! Inheritance? Ha! Wind fall? I wish! Trust fund? No! No life? Quite the opposite!

I transferred a small personal pension into the scheme when I joined, and then spent at least ten years accruing at 45ths. It's what it says on the tin. My pension earned in BA.
Precisely why it's now in a SIPP, and no longer in the company scheme. It's my money to do with whatever I wish.

As for your financial calculations over a career, you'd need to be far more rigorous to come up with an accurate comparison I'm afraid. You'd also need a crystal ball. 18 years to a command? A LH command maybe. But a Gatwick command living an Easyjet style life? Not a chance. Gatwick is the most junior because there are far far better options available within BA for anyone who so prefers.

Have you overlooked the fact that some of our senior co-pilots earn around £100k basic, plus allowances? A 35 year captain (the career length you chose) would be earning in the order of £150k basic plus allowances. Your 'back of a fag packet' calculations don't stack up I'm afraid.

As I said. I hope you enjoy Easy as much as thousands of pilots are able to enjoy BA. Whilst you're flogging backwards and forwards around Europe on multi-sector days, there are BA colleagues taking a couple of Rolls Royce to the Maldives. They'll probably stay a week before bringing the Rollers back. It's their job you see. Sometimes the roster looks more like a holiday brochure!:ok:
Don't make me laugh!

Incidentally, I understand from the recruitment department we are interviewing a considerable number of Easy pilots. Can't imagine why. Obviously not you though eh?:E

BA offers a top drawer package in the UK. Always did, still does.

I was lucky not to get into BA and instead get into EZY because the last decade has been the glory years of share windfalls and short commands and ready base transfers. That is probably somewhat over as the business matures.

My reason for posting is to make only the following point. Housing costs within 90mins of LHR (and LGW) have risen from silly to breathtaking compared to the UK regions whilst the direction of travel on tax is that high earners are going to be vigorously milked harder including their pensions. So. If you can live in the regions (or abroad) like many EZY and also many BA crew manage then that is a Good Thing.

BA top dollar money against a nice house within 90 mins of LHR will probably leave less disposable income than Jet2 top dollar money and a nice house within 90 mins of Leeds when applying the tax regime of 2019.

It might be sweet to be a BA 777 pilot and live in Leeds or an EZY Captain and live in Leeds. What might become less pleasant is a BA pilot stuck for a long time on short haul in LHR or an EZY Captain stuck in LGW.

Tax and house prices are becoming game changers sadly. That £2m family house in Maidenhead might be consuming £13,000 a year 'mansion tax' of that final salary pension within the next couple of years...

I know of a couple of EZY SFO's who have had the welcome on board letter from BA but don't know whether to go or not. There is no right or wrong answer. Some have gone, some have stayed.

Sadly, and I mean that because I really want other employers to offer much higher pay, its not as clear cut as it once was.

Does anyone have any idea when the SH review will be out and what it may result in?

WBF

Some of what you say bears a passing resemblance to accuracy. Some does not. However...
I'm afraid I don't 'know that' at all! That sounds completely wrong. If you accept that BA need LH copilots, (2016 sees the first BA pilots reaching 65 since retirement age changed) and that the company aren't, in any normal circumstances, able to recruit into positions for which there are unfrozen internal bidders. Then I don't see how it could possibly take very much longer than the Engagement Freeze (5 years) to move.

Bowwing

I'm afraid I can't say this with any certainty, however:

Firstly congratulations. Particularly if you go straight to LH. BA place no residency requirements on anyone. New joiners will be no different, but I'm afraid I can't recall how long you must serve (if any) before qualifying for staff travel.

Tax is between you and HMRC, and is dependent on how many 'midnights' you spend in the UK.

Part time is not limited by length of service, though I vaguely recall there may be a requirement to spend 6 months full time after any conversion.

ATB.

Swatson12

I believe the SH review is due to be announced before the end of the month. Mutterings are that pilots won't be too surprised? Who knows if that's accurate?

Bowwing

No reason why not, just be aware if asked that there's a caveat in Flight Time Limitations about not having to travel more of than 90 minutes prior to report for a trip.....

There's a bit more these days to being non-resident than simply midnights out of the UK so you'll need to take professional advice. If you are deemed non-resident by UK HMRC yes you can apply to be on a list with BA which removes you from PAYE. If the rules for you are the same as those that apply to UK nationals then depending on how much UK Duty you do in the year you will still liable to an element of UK tax. You'll probably have to file an annual return with HMRC and could/would have a annual tax bill based on the duty time in the UK during the year. In addition you will obviously (??) have also have to reconcile your Tax and Social Charges situation with your own tax authorities "at home".

At the moment you get staff travel after 6 months.

Not sure what the requirement is to get part time in the first place, but the last time I looked you needed to do three months full time flying after any conversion course before going onto or/back onto a part time roster.

4468,

There are very few compulsory retirements for the next 5 years, and the masses do not hit 65 for about a decade hence the stagnation and long times to get off the SH fleets.

There are many many additional variables in predicting when one reaches the major seniority number to leave SH, such as expansion, take-up of part-time, tax changes, type requirements on new types etc, but as things stand a decade on SH does not look unreasonable. I got very bored once and look at how long from my seniority as junior trash and it looked to be in the 7-9 year region. And it that length of time so much can change in IAG/BA that it could become moot.

That seems to be the gist of it. Other departments will most likely bear the brunt. The biggest hit for SH pilots would be a pay cap at LHR to match LGW. But everything is conjecture.

One thing is for certain, SH pilots cannot work any harder, and more to the point SH cannot improve its balance sheet unless BA sort out the dysfunctional and frankly ridiculous working practices and inefficiencies of the many working groups and logistics systems that are the hallmarks of the airbus operation out of LHR.

The biggest single reason we still have an in-house SH operation (any other legacy airlines recruiting into their SH arm?) is that BA are actually not very good at running an efficient and profitable SH airline, and never have been. That is what is about to change, as IAG now run the show. Long Haul is and will continue to be THE part of BA that is desirable to work for from a pay/work life balance. Overall BA is still a good gig. But only really if LH is your bag and you don't mind spending 10-15 years building seniority to enjoy the best it has to offer.

Forgive me, I am intrigued by this as its a hot topic amongst the FO's at work of whom half are applying to BA or half are wondering whether they ought to have.

Is it pretty common to be doing more than 800hrs flying/1500hrs duty in BA short haul?

The most common heard motivator I hear runs along the lines of "I can't do forty years of low cost flying" due to a perception of high utilisation. Generally people nod and accept that as a given. Yet like last year I look at my logbook and note todays rolling 365 is:


Flying time 695:20 Duty hours 1398:03


That's with three days sick, normal leave and full time roster in an orange minibus. If BA short haul really is worse than this rather than better then a few people's lifestyle calculations at work might need adjustment. Relocating to London to fly more hours on longer duties is not part of the generally portrayed brochure.

BMRR, haven't heard about a possible SH pay cap at LHR. If that's true I believe over half the LHS peeps are well over 16 yrs plus resulting in major pay cuts. Think the proverbial may hit the fan pretty soon! :ooh:

Really??
 

There really is so much drivel written on here about BA, most of which seems to come from people who aren't even in BA! I'm a junior SH commuter and life is nowhere near as bad as what's been spouted on this forum.

The 10-12 year wait for LH is utter BS. I did my own sums from last year's bid and also had a detailed response from the P&P guys and it's the standard 5 year wait as has already been mentioned. There are 750 internal transfers planned in the next 12 months alone!

I've been at the bottom for the last few years and my rosters (triplines and blindlines) have always been blocked work. One huge, unique advantage of life in BA is the ability to chop and change your roster through eMaestro to suit your needs.

I have done a couple of consecutive months of only one weekend off, then I've had a couple of months with almost every weekend off! The last 12 months have been harder work due to the manning level ballsup but our CAP in nov is down to the 70's. I didn't come close to the 800 hour mark last year, it was less than 700!

BA isn't what it was. It will probably deteriorate. There are elements of the Ezy/loco job that I'd love to have but you can't have it all (?). I would, however, still recommend BA. Network size, control of roster, fleet switching, variety, security and decent pay (with the allowances tax calculation and increments my take home is more than I thought it'd be and continues to go up).

I am posting this to add a little balance to the continual negative slant on life in BA. It really isn't that bad.😄

Could anyone else post (or PM) typical LH rosters?

Thanks in advance.

It would be useful to the pilot community if some feedback was given regarding the reasons why some of us have been unsuccesful in the recent recruiting exercise despite more than meeting the minimum criteria . Some of us have lots of experience and have been flying aircraft safely and efficiently for many years but have failed to progress past the initial hurdles. BA needs pilots and we would make good employees who would do our best for our new employer and would be a pleasure to work with if we were given the chance.
Would the head of BA pilot recruitment please post some reasons why we were turned down and what we can do to improve our chances in any further round of recruitment. It would also help if he gave an honest assessment on what is BAs upper age limit for recruitment.

Do you really think the head of BA recruitment is going to post on here? If so maybe that is one reason you didn't get in? Delusional

3Greens - he already has.

Tubby Linton,

If you want your feedback then you are entitled to their complete data holding about yourself under the data protection act.

I believe there is a government website detailing this and it includes standard template letters.

AdrianSW :}

I haven't heard that either but even if it was on the cards I suspect it would not be applied retrospectively precisely for the reason you mention ( stands by for another rant about "Champagne Socialists" ).

Anyway another rumour has it the company may well be having difficulty getting the review past other (i.e. non-pilot) groups, so maybe if the proverbial does arrive it will be coming from another direction...

I believe that BA SH at LHR and EZY LGW are probably similar levels of flying hours. BA at LHR is probably more time in uniform than EZY from the regions.

The major factor for me that has improved my lifestyle by a factor of 10+ is the ability to control when you work. Even from the first day you walk through the door you stand a chance of getting triplines that give you the day(s) off you're after and the type of work you prefer. I quite like early there and backs, weekends off but mixed in with a few nightstops a month and that's broadly what I get. Everyone wants something different and that's what makes bidding for work so helpful. Even if you're not 100% satisfied at publication then eMaestro or iBid etc helps you to tweak it to get more of what you want.

Knowing you're going to be working next year on your friends wedding in August on a 5/3/5/4 was painfully frustrating because you knew that every annual leave day would be red. As I said before though, everyone wants something different so I'm sure that a fixed roster works perfectly for some people.

I found the flying in EZY pretty dull and the ability to see some of Europe's best cities as well as the odd day off on the beach after a bit of mid haul to be a welcome change.

Each to their own but I'd be wary of choosing one job over another simply by comparing block / duty times. I'd much rather fly 900hrs a year on the days I would prefer to work rather than 700 over days I need to be off. You don't need to be in any time at all to start getting control over your life and with rumours of large recruitment this year and next mean that you'll enjoy that control very quickly.

Rosters
 

I would also love to see a few more typical rosters for junior pilots on 747/777/767. Anyone willing to post here, or PM would be a great help.

Recent month, juniorish Tripline holder, 777 P2 roster was something like this:

1-3 Off
4-6 Middle East
7-9 Off
10-12 Africa
13-17 Off
18-20 USA
21-23 Off
24-26 Gulf
27-28 Off
29-1 USA

So 5 reports at LHR in the month, which is fairly typical. I haven't looked to see whether he/she was above or below the CAP target.

Adjacent pilots' rosters are similar, there's the Caribbean stuff out of LGW to chuck into the mix and one junior pilot had picked a long Australia trip ( 9 day SIN/SYD/SIN) which accounts for about half a months work and would be equivalent to 3'ish shorter trips. A lot of very junior pilot's are on Blindlines so their lines will possibly have fewer trips on them at publication but the offset is that they will have blocks of Assignable days which can be filled by the company with a night's notice.

Hope that helps.

Blimey - good memory!

I did 6 months in the UK on a fixed roster before ejecting to the 'other part'. That was the dying days of the original CTC Wings course and despite not technically being an EZY UK employee the rostering agreements were identical at the time - 5/3/5/4.

A lot has changed of course in both companies since then and I completely understand the point of view of people who decide that EZY(S) is better for them.

How often do BA upload new assessment dates? I received an invitation this afternoon and by the time I logged on there were no slots available.

Thanks

When I went through it a few years back they called me to confirm at date. I recall this was for stage 2 (sim). There were only two stages back then. Best of luck.

I have heard of the SH pay cap at LHR too. A little more information on it is that it will be applied just like the change to pay point 34 was. So congratulations your pay point (for arguments sake) 19 you continue as before. Sorry your pay point 18 and will not progress any higher until you transfer to LH.

Until it comes out in a official document go along the lines of more for the same or less and you won't be far wrong. I just hope that they tackle the big issues once and for all rather than this continual appeasement of inefficient departments

It's like with pay point 34. You joined on the 19th April = 24 point pay scale. You joined on the 20th = 34 point pay scale.

I don't think fairness has much to do with it but more of you can't miss what you don't have.

Life could certainly be a lot more unfair. Recent event worldwide focuses how fortunate we are.

Which, FWIW, is precisely where we were a decade or two ago, in the days of Long Haul "Box" payments. Until the individuals involved were close to retirement age there was very little financial incentive for the very senior LH F/O's to consider moving to short haul for a command.

bex

I would hope so as well but given previous form/ experience/current rumours I rather suspect "they" won't.

:ugh: I hope not. Unless the difficult issues are taken by the scruff we will not achieve our dictated goals. I will hold my breath but I fear more frustration :sad:

As I pointed out in this very same thread, I think that is highly debatable. In any event, you'd need a crystal ball. As far as work is concerned, what you get in Easy on day one, is what you'll likely be doing on the day you retire 40(?) years later, having driven to/from your home base 8000 times! In BA there is every likelihood of 'seeing the World' at the company's expense. A few days in the Maldives/Buenos Aires/Capetown etc.

As you say: "horses for courses."

wiggy and bex.

I have started to hear whispers that SH pilots may feel a little disappointed in a few weeks time when the SHBR hits the streets!:rolleyes:

SHBR ?:confused:

SHBR = "Short Haul Business Review...."

The company is looking at more ways of making short haul profitable. (or more profitable, depending on your view of the way the company's accounts are run). The fact there was going to be such a review was much trumpeted many months back, but recently management seem to have gone strangely quiet on the subject.

It's sometimes also referred to as "BOHICA" :oh:

Oh, if it gets stressful, I guess I'll just retire? (Young!)

:D:D:D:D:ok:

WBF, you seem to have a real axe to grind over BA. Why is that???

As you say, "horses for courses." You obviously enjoy your daily drive to and from work, others prefer to spend a few hours in a nice restaurant next to the Parthenon/Stellenbosch/Hollywood Hills/Caribbean/Danube/Central Park/Eiffel Tower/Sydney Harbour/Pyramids - all of which (and much much more) I have done whilst at work!
No they are not. That's garbage. Though like many things in BA, it's certainly available as a choice! Also, what on earth makes you think anyone would have to spend 8 years as an A320 captain and then "they'll need to go back to the RHS." (of LH)??

Don't you understand our system?

That's nice for you 4468. Long haul certainly is a selfish lifestyle choice.

Whilst you're downroute alone again, deciding whether to go for a drink with a bunch of strangers, your kids are coming to hate you and your wife's off with the milkman.

Or do you actually believe they are happy with your lifestyle choice? Honestly.

Long haul is a short term, single mans game. Though I understand the attraction.

You seem to gloat about it. For me, the worst thing that can happen is you enjoy being away from home, and even worse your family start to enjoy you being away from home too.

The industry is littered with broken or unhappy marriages - There's a reason for that.

Each to their own.

Xulu

What on earth makes you think my (still FIRST!) wife and kids don't accompany me on these trips??

You don't seem to understand BA at all.

Of course in BA, one has the choice to move (frequently) backwards and forwards between SH and LH, and I have. So it's never been a problem for me.

Unlike the sandpit/Virgin etc. That where your future lies?

As you so rightly say: Each to their own, eh?

Ouch...Ah well after over 25 years of Long Haul I'll balance that by saying that's not been my experience (except the socialising with a bunch of strangers, but never found that a major problem since after a few minutes they are not strangers anymore, are they?). We don't get milk delivered so that's possibly why I'm still with wife #1 (30 years plus) and in addition the kids are still talking to me.

Now if you insist on being home every night and drinking with the same bunch of guys in the same bar year in, year out I'd agree you'd best avoid long haul, personally that would bore me rigid.

Ultimately as 4468 said it's "each to their own".

I like long haul itself but would prefer not to be away weeks at a time so it does make me smile when people say they can't survive 3-4 nights away. It's not exactly the navy. I think people use the time away as an excuse to distance themselves if things aren't right. If you can't be away for 3-4 nights and then have some time off without splitting up with your partner then there's other things wrong.