|
Or is it more to do with the fact that if fatigue is "managed" they can squeeze more and more out of pilots rather than their chances in court?
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Probably a bit of both..... As GS has said they want to make sure they have their ducks in a row if there is a fatigue related incident. There might well be gains in efficiency if it is known that management proactively “manage” / investigate the background to fatigue reports. |
Originally Posted by bex88
(Post 10326402)
Student88, with my new balanced view unless you are still in the honeymoon period or are on long haul I doubt you can back up your statement. EZY, RYR......better in pay and rostering. (For my status at least) I don't think the pay package changed since you got your command (at least didn't get worse), neither did the rostering. So before you applied for that 4th stripe you could have probably figured out you were going to get very little extra pay for a worse lifestyle. There is a reason commands are going so junior. Nobody forced you to go for a SH command. |
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha
(Post 10327815)
To argue in court that you would not have achieved that downroute and so it is fine to do it before report at base is probably not winnable. That’s not my argument. I’m just pointing out that BA and the regulator are holding you to standards that they themselves do not abide by. To state, as EASA do, that you are acclimatised if you go east by two time zones so you ought to be able to manage to get the same amount of rest/sleep as a result of that state of “acclimatisation” is clearly bullsh1t and can be demonstrably shown to be so. They’re setting you up to operate in an unrested state because nobody can skip forward two hours and get to sleep at the required time because your body hasn’t adjusted to that, same as it hasn’t adjusted when the alarm wakes you up at 03AM (5 o clock local) the next day. For the regulator to put so much emphasis on rest but at the same time you can effectively lose two hours of sleep and yet that’s not a problem, well that’s having your cake and eating it, it’s not science and there’s so many holes in it that it’s ripe for challenge. |
Jumbo2. The rostering has and continues to get worse. The market has changed and the pay at BA has been left behind. Both of those changed since I took command. Sometimes you you need to try something to really understand it. Command achieved, got the stripes and it really is not worth it. The pay could be doubled and it still would not be worth it. The rostering is really really hard. A few of us will certainly be taking a stripe off to go RHS LH. May I ask, are you SH or LH? Would you take a SH command? |
Originally Posted by student88
(Post 10327758)
Fake news - not true.
Ok just quoting a Relative of mine BA A380 pilot. Says their SOP doesn’t allow disengagement of A/T during normal route ‘manual handling’ auto throttle is mandated at all times. Said SOP applies to all BA types except B744 as Wiggy says. Unlike Lufthansa A380 for instance who, like BA 744 A/P out A/T out when manual. And Virgin mate who says they are allowed to practice manual speed control route flying as conditions permit on Airbus 330/340. Appears Health and Safety rules in BA over applied individuals airmanship!! But what do I know, I started in Airlines when sex was safe and flying was dangerous!! |
Originally Posted by bex88
(Post 10327870)
May I ask, are you SH or LH? Would you take a SH command? I know you had been more then 5 years in BA when you went to the left but listening to junior FO's who are less then 2 years in, getting a command and then start complaining about the pay and lifestyle are beyond me and I really struggle to have any empathy for them. As a junior FO going for command (less then 5-8 years in) you might make 400 ponds more a month (because of less efficient lines) but you will get all the leftovers on your roster with plenty of TASS (BA has got the most transparent rostering system I've seen in any airline so it is easy to see what rosters junior P1's are getting). If they don't realise this before going for their command then they haven't done their homework or where foolishly blinded by the P1 status. The pay structure in BA hasn't changed (I'm pretty sure if you take the average pay of all SH P1's and compare that to other UK operators it isn't that far off) and neither did the rostering policy change in the last few years (until JSS now but we only know in 7 days how that is working out). So with all the information available before one decides to bid for a command (nobody is forcing you to bid for a command anyway) there is no point of complaining about the T&C's afterwards is there? |
Originally Posted by Jumbo2
(Post 10327930)
of course you can; I'm in the top 25% Shorthaul by now and have a fair bit of bidding power but staying well clear of a command. The reason; the extra pay is not worth the sacrifice in lifestyle. With the time I've left in this career (over 35 years) why rush things?
|
Jumbo2. Fair point about super junior commands after 2 years. At 25% I guess you have been in about 5 years. The rostering has changed to EASA FTL’s and there have been a number of changes to bidline rules. That all makes a big difference but the crux of it has been we have been short of numbers. The pay issue is one which has come about because of the improvements in terms elsewhere in the industry. Rostering has always been bad when junior on any status but even guys who have seniority are working some pretty brutal lines. The problem is very few people are even prepared to bid for a command. I admire the fact that you can make that choice. It seems daft that we have experienced guys like yourself who won’t take a command yet we need to delay courses of some guys so they have the minimum hours. Easy fix, and yes it will never happen. Seniority as a FO based on DOJ. Seniority as a captain based on the date you pass your command check. It’s the RYR way. And no it’s not a serious proposal so let’s not get into that. Either way, fact RYR, EZY etc spend less time in uniform, they have better rostering and earn more. Yes there are reasons I have not left and options at BA is one of them.:) Fruitbat :D |
Originally Posted by Jumbo2
(Post 10327848)
Why did you go for the command when you did?
I don't think the pay package changed since you got your command (at least didn't get worse), neither did the rostering. So before you applied for that 4th stripe you could have probably figured out you were going to get very little extra pay for a worse lifestyle. There is a reason commands are going so junior. Nobody forced you to go for a SH command. |
Originally Posted by cessnapete
(Post 10327889)
Thread drift, but, Ok just quoting a Relative of mine BA A380 pilot. Says their SOP doesn’t allow disengagement of A/T during normal route ‘manual handling’ auto throttle is mandated at all times. Said SOP applies to all BA types except B744 as Wiggy says. Unlike Lufthansa A380 for instance who, like BA 744 A/P out A/T out when manual. And Virgin mate who says they are allowed to practice manual speed control route flying as conditions permit on Airbus 330/340. Appears Health and Safety rules in BA over applied individuals airmanship!! But what do I know, I started in Airlines when sex was safe and flying was dangerous!! B |
One thing to possibly contemplate about delaying your command to protect your current lifestyle is that sooner or later it’s inevitable that procedures/technology will be in place to remove the heavy crew on the longer LH sectors. That’s the direction we’re going in I’m afraid. In the First Officer redundancy phase that will inevitably follow the seniority list will not protect you whilst you slot into a LHS ahead of someone more “junior” to you A) because the cost to the company will be unacceptable and B) because it’s flat out illegal. Food for thought. How’s that for black cloud thinking, WonderBus? NUTA’d the **** out of that one, didn’t I? ;-) |
I do not disagree that technology might enable pilot numbers per flight to be reduced one day, but do you honestly believe redundancies are inevitable when that happens? Or that it will be happening any time in the next decade? The pilot numbers currently required, both within the company and globally, mean the risk of redundancies is minimal, even with a significant global downturn. There will at some point be a bit of pressure on more senior pilots to take their commands, simply so they can get their NAPS pensions uplifted before the end of the transition period, but the end of 2023 is still a fair way off yet.
|
Either way, fact RYR, EZY etc spend less time in uniform, they have better rostering and earn more. and that it is it in a nut shell. The world has moved on.... |
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha
(Post 10328419)
I do not disagree that technology might enable pilot numbers per flight to be reduced one day, but do you honestly believe redundancies are inevitable when that happens? Or that it will be happening any time in the next decade.
if I’m wrong but I believe that the A350 is already capable of a fully autonomous emergency descent. Of course if there’s the technology available think of the amount of pilots BA will be in surplus on the LH fleets. We’ve seen Alex Cruz attempt to outsource everything that moves and put all the ground station staff in the USA at risk, do you really think BA are going to keep a surplus amount of pilots in work that are not needed purely out of goodwill? |
It will require a change of EASA FTLs.
That will be fought to the death by pilots unions across Europe. I wouldnt strike for much, but a reduction in safety standards to this gross level, suggested above, would be one reason I would back a strike, for the simple reason that it would be european companies that receive cost benefit, with significant ímpact on risk to our passengers. I think the corporate world realizes this, which is why there will be no debate about it happening, no lobbying for a change and therefore no change. |
Originally Posted by VinRouge
(Post 10328554)
It will require a change of EASA FTLs.
That will be fought to the death by pilots unions across Europe. |
Originally Posted by RexBanner
(Post 10328574)
Just like EASA FTL’s were to begin with? The new FTLs were required to harmonise fatigue regs across Europe and were broadly similar to CAP371. IIagree though that they were a derugulation and a move in the wrong direction. The suggestion that augmented rest is simply binned off is not going to happen as it's used globally by even the likes of the GCAA. There are too many examples of why sustained single pilot cruise ops is an utterly awful idea for it to change. |
You’ve got to get this technology approved. Then you’ve got to actually get those aircraft into the airlines. A company is not going to just replace its entire fleet overnight. The fuel savings of modern jets are massive compared to the savings you are speaking of, and yet we didn’t immediately bin the 747 overnight. BA pilots are unlikely to have to worry about your scenario for at least another decade or two. It certainly isn’t making me think I need to rush out and get my command before I get made redundant. |
Anyone read the special feature in Flight OPS news with KG? interesting read. Some points I picked out * We need to have a adult conversation * Some bidline rules are no longer relevant * More hours in a day but fewer days at work, achieved by SH one crew doing 10 hour days with fixed links. LH replacing 48 Hr slips with 24 hr ones. * LH are rewarded slightly above market rate * SH are market rate. But then says we are not way off, we need to look at the blended market rate. * As a workforce we are demotivated * No reason why BA pilots won’t fly LEVEL aircraft. Same model as Air Canada and Rouge. Take it as you will but it sounds like any pay deal will be attached to more efficiencies and sacrifice of bidline rules. I like the sound of some of it but I fear we will work max hours but not see more days at home. Automation: A friend of mine works for a large company developing AI. Aviation is the last place it will come because of the cost, the regulatory testing, public opinion and the consequence of failure. |
Originally Posted by bex88
(Post 10328692)
Automation: A friend of mine works for a large company developing AI. Aviation is the last place it will come because of the cost, the regulatory testing, public opinion and the consequence of failure. Your insurance premiums will be a lot higher than the cost of that second pilots salary and pension methinks. |
Bex... Thanks for the heads up..just had a look.....in a desperate attempt to keep within one intent of this thread (info for prospective new joiners) it looks like if Klaus has his way they may be able to enjoy LAX night-stops (thinks “legacy agreements” and the age old question of why Seattle isn’t on the West Coast :E .....maybe some day soon it will be...) I fear we will work max hours but not see more days at home. You are probably right, the company aren’t going to sit back and let bigger gaps on rosters go to waste.... |
Just read it. I love the way he’s spinning a 24h nightstop in LAX as being for our benefit, not the company’s. My God the guy is absolutely deluded if he thinks we can’t see straight through that. |
Originally Posted by RexBanner
(Post 10328883)
Just read it. I love the way he’s spinning a 24h nightstop in LAX as being for our benefit, not the company’s. My God the guy is absolutely deluded if he thinks we can’t see straight through that. In some ways the person in question is quite direct. He was once asked about the efficacy of pilots sitting around for hours between flights. He responded that your idea of efficiency, is not the same as his. This is the moment when you need BALPA firing on all cylinders and a united pilot group. He’s dealt with large well funded unions. A weak BALPA is like catnip. To remain on topic - would Virgin Atlantic hire him ? Rhetorical obviously. But Cruz would. |
Originally Posted by student88
(Post 10327758)
Fake news - not true.
|
Originally Posted by DuctOvht
(Post 10329098)
I think it’s fleet specific but on my fleet it most certainly is true. |
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 10329110)
It is...I can”t speak directly for the 78 but I suspect at BA now the 744 is the only fleet exempt from the “autothrust/throttle required in “manual flight” rule. |
Originally Posted by DuctOvht
(Post 10329117)
Sorry Wiggy, I edited my post. I can confirm the 787 is very much autothrottle only. |
Originally Posted by JPJP
(Post 10328934)
You have no idea how bad this can get. The goal is for BA to look and feel like a Legacy first class carrier to the public, with pilots compensated at the low end of low cost carrier rates. Think about what ‘blended market rates’ means - pick the worst compensated A320 carriers in Europe and then blend their Terms and Conditions. Perhaps throw Norwegians 787 rates into a compensation comparison for LH. Then outsourcing and dividing groups (long haul/short haul, pensions, Level etc.) to the furthest extent possible. In some ways the person in question is quite direct. He was once asked about the efficacy of pilots sitting around for hours between flights. He responded that your idea of efficiency, is not the same as his. This is the moment when you need BALPA firing on all cylinders and a united pilot group. He’s dealt with large well funded unions. A weak BALPA is like catnip. To remain on topic - would Virgin Atlantic hire him ? Rhetorical obviously. But Cruz would. This is exactly what i named earlier. BA is a legacy, and as they say themselves, with highest standards, a best in class airline, and require the best in class pilots (BA is proud to tell that only 5%-10% of the DEP applicants gets into BA). Then they should not measure their pilots with with the average. But should compare themselves with the other EUROPE legacies, having the same requirements as BA. So: Air France- KLM and Lufthansa (Lufthansa got +10% pay rise in the new CLA). And not with Eurowings, Thompson, Norwegian, Wizz, Flybe. You cannot compare even, because Eurowings, and Norwegian have fast upgrades to CPT LH. Which is not so much the case at the legacies. |
If Klaus gets his way and we start slipping for 24h in destinations like LAX with a 10+ flight time I will be taking an early command and be out the door the moment I get 1000h PIC. |
Does anyone find that there's much operational seasonality at BA?
i.e Can you expect your roster to quieten down/surviving standby's towards the winter time or is it pretty much full-on all year round? |
LGW = quieter winters LHR = generally busy all year round. It does slacken a little in the winter but not much. Usually we go from chronically short of crew to just short of crew. If the numbers were right then yes you could expect it to be a little easier. It is nothing like the change you see in charter ops though. |
I'd agree with bex regarding LHR longhaul. A big chunk of the passengers are on Business travel, which isn't that seasonal, a lot of flights are too/from the southern hemisphere so different holidays, different seasons come onto play, plus what might have been regarded as off season once upon a time is now when those with flexibility try and travel in the hope of cheaper fares. End result is any monthly variability you do notice won't be a lot and tends to be down manpower fluctuations on fleets and the odd outlier like engine issues taking work from one fleet and lumping it on other. |
Just read KG's Special Feature..... wish I'd read it before dinner, nearly threw up on the patronising corporate cheese.
The next battle lines are just starting to make themselves known....more efficiency, squeeze that lemon even harder! As he seems so keen to give us more time at home at the expense of our our downtime down route I wonder if KG will commit to more days free of duty per annum or a maximum number of trips per month to avoid these new hotel savings and reduced days away being turned into MORE trips on our lines. I think I already know the answer to that. Surely he knows we can all see through this? Generally a positive chap but I didn't sign up for all this tbh. It's worse than the low cost operator I joined from! |
I truly hate this company (not the staff) to its very core. The people in charge have shown their true colours, they just embody corporate greed and the very worst of capitalism to its utmost degree. £1.5 Billion of profit? Nah that’s not enough, we need to squeeze the staff even more and reduce their terms and conditions so we can wring every last drop of profit out of it. So greedy and incredibly short sighted. I know this is going on everywhere but the contemptible people in charge of this outfit take it to the ultimate extreme. |
Originally Posted by RexBanner
(Post 10329708)
I truly hate this company (not the staff) to its very core. The people in charge have shown their true colours, they just embody corporate greed and the very worst of capitalism to its utmost degree. £1.5 Billion of profit? Nah that’s not enough, we need to squeeze the staff even more and reduce their terms and conditions so we can wring every last drop of profit out of it. So greedy and incredibly short sighted. I know this is going on everywhere but the contemptible people in charge of this outfit take it to the ultimate extreme. |
Originally Posted by RexBanner
(Post 10329708)
I truly hate this company (not the staff) to its very core. The people in charge have shown their true colours, they just embody corporate greed and the very worst of capitalism to its utmost degree. I can't help but wonder where the tipping point is in BA. SH have been pushed to the limit, now KG is after LH. At what point are we going to collectively say no? Will it ever happen - are we THAT divided? Wiil we bend over relentlessly to pay for KG's indoor swimming pool? My previous airline had a well established, robust, non punitive fatigue system - AND they were working better rosters than BA. AND they were better paid. What the hell have I joined. |
Sadly, I now often wonder the same thing. |
So to summarise rumours/hard news for this week: The good news for many reading this is the company wants to recruit several hundred more DEPs in 2019 (though that’s apparently a lot more than “Finance” are keen on.). There are some significant “howevers” that potential joiners need to be aware of when deciding whether BA continues to be a sensible/workable option: 1. The company are really going to go after what is left of Bidline rules, especially the trip construction/rest parameters, and are very keen on reducing time off. 2. BA are (according to “traffic” elsewhere last night) really trying to screw down on travelling to work pre-report...A notice on this with company approved timings to be issued shortly. 3. Oh yes, the pay claim.... |
Originally Posted by FACoff
(Post 10329902)
I can't help but wonder where the tipping point is in BA. SH have been pushed to the limit, now KG is after LH. At what point are we going to collectively say no? Will it ever happen - are we THAT divided? Wiil we bend over relentlessly to pay for KG's indoor swimming pool?
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