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Absolutely Buter!
As hinted at before, getting a direct entry LH offer might sound like winning the lottery. However it does come with a health warning. Having just joined the company your seniority number is at the bottom of the group, since every year there is a lot of movement from people who are unfrozen you will generally stay for at least 5 years at pretty much the bottom of the seniority list of that specific fleet before slowly starting to move up. This is because the people who move onto your fleet from other fleets in BA will have a higher seniority number. For SH since the biggest source for new pilots is external recruitment you will generally start moving up the fleet from the day you join. Reserve points, as a new joiner you start with the lowest amount of reserve points on the fleet (people moving fleet within BA get the average amount of reserve points). On SH this spread isn't generally that large but on LH it can be. Therefor it will take longer to get a reasonable amount of reserve points. Also we have a banding system were if you have been in the company for a while you will get more points for doing a reserve period. On SH pretty much everybody is in the same (lowest) band and therefor everybody does about the same amount of reserve periods a year (after you have managed to get your points to the average after joining). Xmas and holiday points. Once again joining LH you will find a lot of pilots during their time in the company have build up a fair amount of Xmas and holiday points. As a new joiner you start with 0 points so it will take a few years to get your points up and be able to get the holiday you want or Xmas off. On SH most are less then 5 years in the company and have relatively few Xmas and holiday points. Also on SH there are relatively few Xmas trips. Commands / Engagement freeze. In the first 5 years of your BA career BA can do and post you where ever they like. If you are desperate for the 4 stripes all junior commands are on the Airbus 320 fleet. BA not being a charity organisation or a state airline they luckily try to control costs. Therefor they are more likely to release somebody from his/her engagement freeze for a command on type then releasing somebody from another fleet for which the course takes much longer and will include two typerating courses (the LH position needs to be backfilled). Also a warning for those who think about command early in their BA career. Your pay rise will be marginal. The reason; you are going to be the most junior skipper with very credit inefficient rosters. If you would have stayed as a FO your rosters would have been much more credit efficient which is reflected in the pay. Also as mentioned above about LH the same is true for an early command. You join a group with most in a higher band of reserve points, more holiday and xmas points. So please if you do go for that early command do so with your eyes wide open and don't start complaining once you have that command that your pay and lifestyle are bad. You bid for it, the perks didn't change and there is a reason the commands went and are going junior. My experience in BA: My life is much more stable now than with any other airline I worked for before. Being able to bid for your roster (either JSS or Bidline) is a massive perk. However lifestyle took a hit last year being so short of pilots. Secondary terms and conditions incl Pension and LOL are better than what I had before. Most guys I fly with are very professional and for me more importantly practical. The cockpit gradient is almost flat, definitely flatter then other UK airlines I've flown for, if it is your sector you run the show. I also haven't flown with anybody who spends more then 10 minus briefing LHR (don't think I generally even get a brief longer that last longer then 5 minutes for a LHR dep/arr). Having said the exception being there are a few who are slightly harder work who did indeed mainly join as DEC a few years back, they are very friendly on a personal level but can be slightly more authoritative and like to dot the i's and cross the t's when on the flight deck. BA might not be for everybody (I appreciate that some might rather work for Virgin and Easy, which by the sound of it are very good employers as well) but having joined BA as an experienced FO on SH a few years back I well and truly do enjoy it and wouldn't like to work for any other UK airline. For those in the selection process or thinking about applying. The selection process is hard work and can be a pain in the arse, however it is a very fair process (no age, gender, race, nationality, background discrimination what so ever as somebody hinted at before) and so worth the effort once you are allowed to go straight into Waterside (offices) instead of turning left (recruitment centre). |
Hi all,
Does anyone know if there's much change in lifestyle or lifestyle progression for someone that goes into DEP Shorthaul Yr1 at LHR vs. LGW - i.e Would it take longer to see an effective change over the years at LHR over Gatwick? I understand there are more tours at Heathrow, for example, but I'm thinking more in terms of days off per month or the time it will take to not have to work every weekend of the year etc. I know of a friend that moved LGW -> LHR at around the Yr5 mark and has now gone back to Gatwick after not enjoying the Heathrow lifestyle in comparison. I guess for someone like me, you can't miss what you never had in the first place :confused: Can anyone also help out with this concept of reserve - It's not something we do at my current employer. On a 28-day reserve block, do you have absolutely no idea what your days off will be/is it possible to plan any remote form of lifestyle in this time or do you just have to accept it and give yourself up to work for a month? How do people find it? Thanks in advance! |
Originally Posted by GetTheQRH
(Post 10316557)
Hi all,
Does anyone know if there's much change in lifestyle or lifestyle progression for someone that goes into DEP Shorthaul Yr1 at LHR vs. LGW - i.e Would it take longer to see an effective change over the years at LHR over Gatwick? I understand there are more tours at Heathrow, for example, but I'm thinking more in terms of days off per month or the time it will take to not have to work every weekend of the year etc. I know of a friend that moved LGW -> LHR at around the Yr5 mark and has now gone back to Gatwick after not enjoying the Heathrow lifestyle in comparison. I guess for someone like me, you can't miss what you never had in the first place :confused: Can anyone also help out with this concept of reserve - It's not something we do at my current employer. On a 28-day reserve block, do you have absolutely no idea what your days off will be/is it possible to plan any remote form of lifestyle in this time or do you just have to accept it and give yourself up to work for a month? How do people find it? Thanks in advance! |
As above but the norm now seems to be 6 on 1 off, 6 on 1 off 6 on. Some will be home standby, some will be airport standby and some will be flying. If it’s really busy you may fly all of it. Exhausting but sometimes just sometime it’s alright. |
Also you could wait until you are assigned one in the middle of the summer where you get a reserve period like bex88 describes. Or you do the smart thing, are proactive and get your reserve points up by doing a quieter reserve period in Winter which is the more civilised version with more stood down days.
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@Enzo999 @bex88 @Jumbo2 Thanks such a helpful insight - thanks guys.
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Originally Posted by Jumbo2
(Post 10316768)
Also you could wait until you are assigned one in the middle of the summer where you get a reserve period like bex88 describes. Or you do the smart thing, are proactive and get your reserve points up by doing a quieter reserve period in Winter which is the more civilised version with more stood down days.
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Originally Posted by Tricia Takanawa
(Post 10316829)
. I imagine Dec might almost be guaranteed..
14.3.6.5 if you are really interested.... |
Reserve isn’t an exact science and can be completely baffling as to the workload versus what’s expected for the time of year. I had reserve in June during the World Cup, England going great guns in the tournament, fantastic weather, critically undercrewed in the RHS, all pointing to a nightmare reserve period. In actuality it turned out to be the quietest reserve period I’ve done in my time at BA, putting my feet up in front of the Telly and the football with only four trips in the entire three weeks, the last one of which I actually phoned current ops to request as it cleared Heathrow at 07:50 on the final day of the reserve block. Go figure. |
BA Sim
Have the Sim on 4th Dec 0930. If anyone on this forum is the same. Send me message. Would be great to chat with you!
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Originally Posted by Sampepper93
(Post 10317177)
Have the Sim on 4th Dec 0930. If anyone on this forum is the same. Send me message. Would be great to chat with you.
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VJW. They are reluctant to do that now. |
For those of you wishing to join, suggestion is in the vicinity of 300 DEPs needed in 2019, both short haul and long haul. DEPs certainly to the 777 and 787, I am guessing the 747 too but not the 350/380. |
Just FYI, if you join BA on the 747 in 2019 there is a good chance that it’ll be as a cruise pilot (initially) due to training capacity. |
Paid the same and because you won’t be doing any two crew stuff you’ll have a far easier time of it than if you were bottom of the pile on JSS disaster rosters. What’s not to like? |
Originally Posted by RexBanner
(Post 10318277)
Paid the same and because you won’t be doing any two crew stuff you’ll have a far easier time of it than if you were bottom of the pile on JSS disaster rosters. What’s not to like? |
Current three crew trips: CPT, JNB, YVR, LAX, PHX, NBO, SAN, MIA, LAS, DEN, SFO ..all heavy both ways giving you artificially higher seniority because the rest of us will be fighting over the operating seats on routes like CPT, PHX, SAN, SFO etc :sad: So yeah, I’d be making the most of it too! |
Are DEP getting sent mainly to A320 or does it vary quite a lot between FO and SFO with experience?
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Originally Posted by student88
(Post 10318369)
Current three crew trips: CPT, JNB, YVR, LAX, PHX, NBO, SAN, MIA, LAS, DEN, SFO |
Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic
(Post 10318462)
Are DEP getting sent mainly to A320 or does it vary quite a lot between FO and SFO with experience?
Not sure what you mean by FO and SFO, you'll all start at FO. |
Originally Posted by Buter
(Post 10316024)
I don't have a problem with DEC's, as long as every BA pilot has had the opportunity to take that command. If there is an eligible, frozen pilot who wants a command and BA hire a DEC, then I got a problem.
I hope that I have c 4,300 pilots who feel the same. Buter As as has been mentioned elsewhere though, bottom of a very long seniority list on seriously uncompetitive money....who would want it?! |
Originally Posted by Stocious
(Post 10321110)
Not sure what you mean by FO and SFO, you'll all start at FO. Agree with all in your reply. |
Originally Posted by The Blu Riband
(Post 10319085)
But don't whine about being type frozen.........:hmm:
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Originally Posted by DuctOvht
(Post 10321448)
As as has been mentioned elsewhere though, bottom of a very long seniority list on seriously uncompetitive money....who would want it?! Living within 15 mins of LGW with young children still a while away from school age I’m happy to take it. I’m well aware of life at the bottom at LGW (It wasn’t long ago) and it isn’t all that bad to be honest. As long as weekends off isn’t absolutely paramount things are actually not too bad at all. Very personal decision obviously but while not competitive it is still more money. If I really don’t like it I can apply for part time and be in the same financial position as I am now or; 5 years down the line, bid RHS LH. |
And that, JS6, is precisely why terms and conditions for the junior end of the command scales will not improve. All the while people are prepared to do the job for below par reward, BA will certainly allow them to do so. I understand your train of thought, that it is more money for you so why not, but at the same time BA are laughing all the way to the bank. It is the same argument people who constantly pick up overtime make. “I might as well be earning more money for the same work.” However, it means BA get away with employing fewer pilots so everyone has to work harder and again, BA are laughing all the way to the bank. We are our own worst enemy. The managers are not stupid. |
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha
(Post 10321628)
We are our own worst enemy. The managers are not stupid. Couldn't agree more. |
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha
(Post 10321628)
And that, JS6, is precisely why terms and conditions for the junior end of the command scales will not improve. All the while people are prepared to do the job for below par reward, BA will certainly allow them to do so. I understand your train of thought, that it is more money for you so why not, but at the same time BA are laughing all the way to the bank. It is the same argument people who constantly pick up overtime make. “I might as well be earning more money for the same work.” However, it means BA get away with employing fewer pilots so everyone has to work harder and again, BA are laughing all the way to the bank. We are our own worst enemy. The managers are not stupid. I have made a personal choice for my family and I to be in the seat I want to be in at the base of my choice if (read when) the industry takes a downward turn and the current levels of movement stop. |
Originally Posted by JulietSierra6
(Post 10321668)
Hang on, I haven’t reinvented the pay scales. I and you alike knew what they were when we joined. Where you consider it acceptable to take command (if available) on those scales is personal choice. If a LH command suddenly became very junior would you be accusing them of lowering T’s & C’s for taking it? Out of interest at what pay point does it suddenly become acceptable to take command? I have made a personal choice for my family and I to be in the seat I want to be in at the base of my choice if (read when) the industry takes a downward turn and the current levels of movement stop. Secondly any attempt by junior guys in increase their pay would almost certainly be met with horror by many within the BA community who have been very vocal on various forums that any attempt to improve their conditions would be blocked because it’s “robbing Peter to pay Paul”! So you won’t let us get improved conditions then shout at us when we pick at the crumbs you guys have left. And for anyone wondering why BA is such a fractured, unpleasant working enviroment there you have it! |
Sorry, my post has clearly come across incorrectly. I am not knocking anyone for the decisions they make. It is acceptable for anyone to take a command whenever they deem it appropriate. It is not my decision to make, and I am not knocking anyone for it, just as I would not tell someone who picks up overtime not to do it. I am simply pointing out that it is good for BA when people choose to do so, and terms and conditions will not improve while it is happening. Just as BA will not hang up on the cost cutting and efficiencies until people are leaving for better pastures. It is all about market forces, and if there are people who will do it, the reward is not going to improve, even if that reward is not as good as at other companies. BALPA cannot pluck improved terms and conditions out of thin air. Just for a little more education on why senior long haulers do not tend to take short haul commands; it is not quite correct to say things for them on long haul are too good. The biggest thing is the overall reward consideration. A NAPS long hauler has a collosal tax bill upon obtaining their command. It is so large that they are working entirely for free for the first couple of years, and instead handing their wages to the government. The junior guys do not have that bill and so do not work for free for a few years. So the senior long haulers have generally decided the short haul command reward is not appropriate, even though the money BA are handing over is more than for their junior colleagues. ie the market forces are different depending on whether you are NAPS or not. I am in the fortunate position to be senior enough for long haul command within the next couple of years, but I am very much in two minds whether I should even take that when the time comes. I probably will do it, but it certainly will not be for the financial reward because it will benefit the government far more than it will benefit me. I know plenty of people who will not take a BA command, long haul or short haul, because the reward for them is not enough. A far greater number will never take a short haul command because the reward is not great enough. However, BA do not currently need to improve the reward because more junior colleagues who do not have the crazy taxation, consider the reward acceptable. |
Originally Posted by Enzo999
(Post 10321711)
...any attempt by junior guys in increase their pay would almost certainly be met with horror by many within the BA community who have been very vocal on various forums that any attempt to improve their conditions would be blocked because it’s “robbing Peter to pay Paul”! So you won’t let us get improved conditions then shout at us when we pick at the crumbs you guys have left.
As for “robbing Peter to pay Paul” the last time I literally saw that expression used was in a forum debate about the (dire) Maternity provision for female pilots, where one or two of our well meaning but IMHO naive colleagues suggested the community should forgo an element of next years pay rise in order to improve maternity benefits...again this was seriously being suggested at a time when the company is making over a billion in profits...... We need to be pressurising the company into divvying up some reward across the board for everbodies hard work, not arguing that those on Fleet XXX should be subsiding those on Fleet YYY, or those with a seniority number of less than 2000 should be taking a smaller pay increase to top up the payrise of those with a bigger senority number... and yes...I do agree with what was mentioned earlier, we at BA can be our own worse enemy...and the management know it. |
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha
(Post 10321754)
Sorry, my post has clearly come across incorrectly. I am not knocking anyone for the decisions they make. It is acceptable for anyone to take a command whenever they deem it appropriate. It is not my decision to make, and I am not knocking anyone for it, just as I would not tell someone who picks up overtime not to do it. I am simply pointing out that it is good for BA when people choose to do so, and terms and conditions will not improve while it is happening. Just as BA will not hang up on the cost cutting and efficiencies until people are leaving for better pastures. It is all about market forces, and if there are people who will do it, the reward is not going to improve, even if that reward is not as good as at other companies. BALPA cannot pluck improved terms and conditions out of thin air. Just for a little more education on why senior long haulers do not tend to take short haul commands; it is not quite correct to say things for them on long haul are too good. The biggest thing is the overall reward consideration. A NAPS long hauler has a collosal tax bill upon obtaining their command. It is so large that they are working entirely for free for the first couple of years, and instead handing their wages to the government. The junior guys do not have that bill and so do not work for free for a few years. So the senior long haulers have generally decided the short haul command reward is not appropriate, even though the money BA are handing over is more than for their junior colleagues. ie the market forces are different depending on whether you are NAPS or not. I am in the fortunate position to be senior enough for long haul command within the next couple of years, but I am very much in two minds whether I should even take that when the time comes. I probably will do it, but it certainly will not be for the financial reward because it will benefit the government far more than it will benefit me. I know plenty of people who will not take a BA command, long haul or short haul, because the reward for them is not enough. A far greater number will never take a short haul command because the reward is not great enough. However, BA do not currently need to improve the reward because more junior colleagues who do not have the crazy taxation, consider the reward acceptable. Whilst I take your point regarding your tax problem this only exists amongst ex NAPSs members a scheme that closed to new entrants about 15 years ago, so anyone joining since then would not have this tax burden, so I think there are more issues at play than the financial rewards or lack of. |
a pay rise and increased pension payments to do the same job from a different seat? |
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 10321867)
I’ll be honest and say I’m struggling with that perception, I think however it has been custom and practise from the company POV for a while to suggest that improvements in one area of T&Cs should be self funded, and as a community we are stuffed if we think that is the way we should proceed.....or do you seriously think the senior should forgo any improvement in T&Cs in order to fund improvements in T&Cs for the junior at a time when the company is making record profits? As for “robbing Peter to pay Paul, Last time I literally saw that expression used was in a forum debate about the (dire) Maternity provision for female pilots, where one or two of our well meaning but IMHO naive colleagues suggested the community should forgo an element of next years pay rise in order to improve maternity benefits...again this was seriously being suggested at a time when the company is making over a billion in profits...... We need to be pressurising the company into divvying up some reward across the board for everbodies hard work, not arguing that those on Fleet XXX should be subsiding those on Fleet YYY, or those with a seniority number of less than 2000 should be taking a smaller pay increase to top up the payrise of those with a bigger senority number... and yes...I do agree with what was mentioned earlier, we at BA can be our own worse enemy...and the management know it. Imagine if BALPA came back from the pay negotiations and gave the following choices, 1) A global 5% increase for 3 years, or 2) Scrap PP34 and everyone gets 2.5% for 3 years how do you recon that vote would go? Think I can guess. |
Enzo, if I was on the 34 point payscale, I would not be pushing for its removal. BA will not reverse that kind of a decision. What I’d be pushing for is a lessening of the gradient, with a rise for pp1 and a reduction for paypoint 34. That would be in BA’s interest for attracting new entrants, and in your interest because none of you are on the top paypoints yet, and you’d get a payrise now when you need it. If you did that, pp24ers could not claim you are robbing from them, and you could still have your across the board corporate rise which is what we will all end up with anyway. |
BA is a broken place. We are divided by LH, SH, PP24, PP34 and so on. The simple truth is BA was well rewarded but we have seen the market shift and we have been left behind. We have seen pay deals attached to productivity increases which result in little to no real pay rise. We work our ass off now for little more take home pay. 75% now is like full time 8 years ago. Brilliant, they cut the salary effectively by a 1/4. The biggest issue is our work load. Why join a airline which pays more on a 5 on 4 off when you can join BA for less and work 6 on 1 off 5 on? until the union gets a back bone and ballots for strike action it’s going nowhere. Never ever thought I would think like that but I am fed up. Jam tomorrow, invest today. Same story again and again, we are not sharing in the success we are helping to deliver. As far as pay goes. There is a huge disparity from the top to the bottom between market rates. Don’t take a percentage pay deal, take a flat fee. Everyone gets the same from FO to CP, LH to SH. |
Originally Posted by bex88
(Post 10321938)
BA is a broken place. We are divided by LH, SH, PP24, PP34 and so on. The simple truth is BA was well rewarded but we have seen the market shift and we have been left behind. We have seen pay deals attached to productivity increases which result in little to no real pay rise. We work our ass off now for little more take home pay. 75% now is like full time 8 years ago. Brilliant, they cut the salary effectively by a 1/4. The biggest issue is our work load. Why join a airline which pays more on a 5 on 4 off when you can join BA for less and work 6 on 1 off 5 on? until the union gets a back bone and ballots for strike action it’s going nowhere. Never ever thought I would think like that but I am fed up. Jam tomorrow, invest today. Same story again and again, we are not sharing in the success we are helping to deliver. As far as pay goes. There is a huge disparity from the top to the bottom between market rates. Don’t take a percentage pay deal, take a flat fee. Everyone gets the same from FO to CP, LH to SH. |
“Unpleasant working environment”? Which fleet are you guys on? I genuinely do not recognise this description. |
Bex88; everyone gets the same straight value of payrise rather than a percentage. Does this apply across the board to cabin crew and ground staff and baggage handlers etc. too? If not why not? |
The flight deck can be the nicest environment in the world, but if you feel trapped in a very unequal and exploitative company structure, I know from experience that it can feel very unpleasant.
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What I have found quite eye-opening about working for BA is the amount of pilots we have who don't realise how good they've actually got it, mainly due to only ever working for one airline.
(that applies to our legacy cabin crew too) |
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