Have a friend who attended. 20k for a type rating and the possibility of an extra 3 and a bit for a "refresher" course. So possibly up to near 24k to then go on a CTC contract.

It is appalling. Absolutely appalling.

Please refer to Lord Spandex Mashers earlier post.

I couldn't agree more. For once...

Antonov, you big softy;)

ReallyAnnoyed,

Yeah, my analogy was wasted on you.

Your mantra is "If its difficult, don't bother" is it?

Why don't you get a little fired up in that LHS of yours on behalf of your professional colleagues, about to get stiffed yet again? Did you find that sitting down across the table from your management with that type of attitude got you far in your negotiations?

Whatever anyone does, don't forget that EZY recently announced multi-billion pound orders for huge numbers of aircraft, are forecast to make huge profits this year, have a share price that has ballooned recently, and yet have conducted a cynical recruitment campaign involving calculated obfuscation of the T&C's on offer to take yet further advantage of those pilots who are near the bottom of the pile.

If the conditions were ever ripe for industrial bargaining to deliver a proper deal for new joiners in the RHS, now is that time.

What is EZY's excuse?

EZY would not blink twice at the cost of bulk purchased TR's for non-TR'ed FO's. It is a drop in the ocean, not even equivalent to the CEO's annual salary!

Righteousness?

Its a shame more pilots aren't more indignant on behalf of their professional colleagues.

FWIW, I'm LHS, not in any way affiliated with EZY, have sat across the table from Management and attempted to stop the rot, and am thoroughly disgusted with the EZY recruitment paradigm.

:mad:

SR71
Before I or my colleagues take any lectures from you I would like to remind you that firstly it is mainly Capts who are BALPA members because of the high level of flexi crew in the company. Secondly this same membership rejected last years pay and lifestyle offer partly because of the huge loss on FO loyalty bonus on promotion that would have cost them tens of thousands of pounds. Other changes to the proposed FO career path were very poor. To suggest Capts at easyJet are not aware of the plight of FOs is wrong. Thirdly as already stated this new entrant contract and recruitment of experienced pilots is a result of a lot of work by BALPA, trainers, senior Captains and others.
I suggest you continue to work with the management of your present company as that is clearly your strength and thus improve the prospects for yourself and your colleagues and therefore have no need to consider any other airline.
A question to you. We had sufficient experienced Airbus applicants to fill our requirements more than twice over. In your experience of negotiating, how would you deal across a table with a very savvy bunch of managers who wonder why do we need to deal with the risk (but not the cost) of non TR pilots when we can fill all the seats with someone we can almost be sure will exit line training as a competent FO? Why should easyJet even contemplate the higher risk strategy of recruiting a proportion as nonTR pilots? The answer is there is no business case but it is a sign of hard lobbying by Pilots and some re engagement from the company.
So there you have it. A perspective from outside the company and one from within.

Over 3000 applicant and I think 100-200 places, at the best odds, 1:15, how far is your solidarity going to get you? A market place awash with pilot's. Willy Walsh and others cutting back at the flag carriers and more low cost airlines emerging.

As pitotheat heat has said what would be your negotiating strategy in front of management?

pitotheat is correct.

Our recruitment managers are concerned about getting a good deal, and getting a good "mix" of pilots.

The path for newbie cadet first officers is:

• Contractor (max 12 months)
• SO
• FO (75% seasonal, possibly, then 100%)
• SFO

You can jump out of that path at any time (so long as you are SO or greater and have the experience and the ability) into command.

When it comes to the non-TR intake, the company can insert you at any position. We, internally, would argue that only mad fools would accept entry at the bottom, and we don't want mad fools. The company will argue that it is purely supply and demand - and with some UK TP airlines in potential trouble, even the good ones will see the wisdom of jumping early, and will pay the financial price in order to be first in the queue.

Of course, if you all said no then the entry point would increase. But the sad facts are that FOs will jump all over the back of the candidate in front and that the company has a valid point.

Pitotheat - you're absolutely right in what you say. However, I would imagine that the logic behind employing NR pilots is simply because they will accept poorer conditions and thefore cost less money.

I would imgaine that type rated pilots would enter on £45k plus sector pay of £8.2k = £53.2k. Most I would imagine will enter as SFO on around £56k plus sector pay = £64.2k. NR pilots are being offered to join on £38k with no sector pay, thats a potential saving of between £15.2k & £26.2k per pilot x say 100 pilots = £1.52M & £2.62M saving/ extra profit per YEAR for the first 2 years.

Once NR pilots have paid for their own rating (easy are charging way over the odds so they'll even be money to cover the costs of recruitment & induction) they will be in exactly the same position as the type rated guys but earning considerably less (I know they won't have the same experience but they will be as qualified).

My pal is now going through the process of deciding whether to accept a flexi contract. He is in bits. He cannot afford the repayments on a loan of £20k plus pay his mortgage plus feed his kids but he is desperate to take the job because of the prospects. Poor guy hasn't slept properly in a week.

If he were to take the job, you will have a guy sat in the RHS of an airbus stressing out everyday about how to make this months mortgage payment. That to me rings alarm bells

Captthunder
 

It is a no brainer.

Your mate has to say no.

He could lose everything and it is all for a Flexi contract.

easyJet and CTC, by sinking to such levels, are like a cancer that has spread. It reaches every last area and is terminal.

Pitotheat

I think you're talking rubbish there. It is because they would have to pay the going rate to type rated guys, with no bond. This way they make a profit on the course, and pay them peanuts with no commitment from EZY. And if the company was trying to screw future commands for FO's how is it a rosy future. Looks to me like the company is desperate to screw pilots at every stage.

Stiglet. What rewards are you talking about. Do you get pots of gold on the side. From what I can see it's a crap starting salary, an even worse rip off for the course, followed by a distinctly average salary throughout the career.

It's an interesting thread. However I don't think it's the rosy place all the EZY guys are painting. Sure if you're a 10 or 15 year skipper it's good. But joining now you will always be on the back foot. Lets face it it's not BA. This queue of potential joiners are only interested because there is nothing else. Lifestyle. Not really. Guys I used to fly with who are there say it's killing them. especially the 5 earlies. I don't know one long term skipper who still loves it. And a few who are looking at various bus contracts overseas to get out.

Just pointing out it's not all rosy. Worth a thought before you shell out 24k plus the sundry costs.

Captain Thunder
I have tried to explain about what the company is doing to the best of my knowledge. Whilst the offer for TR and non TR pilots could be better the company have responded to market forces.
As for your friend, she or he has to make their own mind up. The situation she or he finds themselves in is not new. I switched careers after 20 years in one field where I had been promoted several times and was on a very good salary. I chucked that in to become a flying instructor earning a quarter of my previous salary. A year later I was flying TP on barely anymore money. I too had a young family and a mortgage to consider. It took me 7 years during some rapid airline expansion to get back to my salary level. On top of that my final salary pension was forfeited. My story or your friends story is not unusual in our profession. Our strength of the love of flying has become our weakness in that we will make great personal sacrifices to realise our dreams. Unfortunately our passion is now being used by accountants and MBA graduates against us.
I hope your friend makes a decision they can live with. They will need the love and support of their family and friends.

It's easy to comment from the sidelines and when not in the position of being unemployed or in an unhappy job but on the whole I agree with James Brown. It's a very average offer and you work bloody hard in Easy. I know lots of people and there are above average levels of wingeing!! Shattered people with no life balance. Good type rating thou and secure employment. Tough call! All opinions on here are valid. Read it all and you decide! One size does not fit all. That's my advice!

Solidarity and boycotting a recruitment drive between people who don't know each other and are not related is a bit of an impossible call thou. Be great if it was possible but its totally unrealistic. To think it is possible and be promoting that is.... well.... poor advice. You will miss out always due to a poor, idealistic decision making process.

Just my thoughts!

Phensocks,

Sadly, given UK employment legislation your quote is not applicable.

But what would your negotiation strategy be?

Lord Spandex Masher
I don't see the logic of your belief in me being responsible for the deterioration in T&C in easyJet or the industry. I for one have stood up to be counted in that arena; have you?

James
Yes we all accept the starting salary is not good but it does improve with opportunities that come up more rapidly than most other airlines especially if you get in early.
As for the rewards, I believe the package compares favourably ith other UK airlines: a) easyJet salary when permanent is fair, b) good loyalty bonus, c) access to SAYE and BAYE schemes which have benefited from the share price, d) bonus scheme if targets are met, e) adhoc free shares which have been given regularly, f) salary sacrifice available to uplift pension contributions if you wish, g) opportunities to move to Europe if that is where your heart lies, h) P/T opportunities, i) reasonable employer.
Conversely we do work hard.

So if you want to be based in the UK, home every night, flying good well maintained equipment, with as secure an airline as there is today then they don't come much better.
Short term pain yes, most of us have been though that at some point. I sympathise, but if you can take the hit, and I know that is very subjective then I believe the gamble will be worth it in the long run.

Good luck to all and I hope you get the opportunity to make that decison for yourself.

PS James - I'm a long term skipper and I still love it. Now you do know one.

I too love it, home every night and am >10 years in the company. Not perfect but where is?

So now you know two.

I too am still smiling. 15% less work for 15% less money and I'd love it. And at least we have a mechanism for trying to make those sorts of changes in the future.

Make that 3. Obviously as rare as hens teeth these happy ezy pilots :ok:
My post just beaten to the ether so now there are 4!

Stiglet, whether you are one of the people taking this "opportunity" or are someone extolling the virtues of, and encouraging people to take, this "opportunity" then you are, in part, responsible for industry Ts&Cs being eroded.

With "opportunities" like this supply will ALWAYS outstrip demand and, therefore, contribute to the continuous deterioration of such "opportunities". There is no reason whatsoever for companies like Easy to offer anything better and you can bet your arse that it'll only get worse for the next "opportunity".

Not sure I'd call what you're doing as standing up and being counted.

I have been reading this thread with interest for some time. I applied as a rated FO and was invited for assessment and SIM back in July. 2 days after my SIM I received a called from Easy HR claiming that because of “excellent” performance during the process they would like to reward me with an offer, the offer in question ended up being a Flexi contract through Parc based in LGW. This came as a huge disappointment to me, like everyone else I applied through the easy web site on the basis that full time positions would be available; otherwise I could have just applied via Parc any time over the last 4 years. I very politely rejected their “offer” and explained that I am only interested in a full time position (a point which I also made very clear during interview), no problem she said and I was placed back on the list and if a full time slot comes available they will call, well that was 2 months ago and the phone has not rung.

The same thing has happened to almost everyone I know that attended the rated assessments. I know of nobody that has received an offer for full time employment. I am now almost certain that Easy have no intension of offering full time contracts to new entrants unless they struggle with numbers prepared to accept Flexi crew (which lets face it, they wont). After all the stress, hassle, time and expense of preparing for the interview, assessment and SIM it would appear that my success and future career with Easy came down to one question “what contract type are you interested in”.

Anyway my point is, lots of people are asking about the salary and the benefits and the differences between FO and SFO, trying to decided if 20K is a good investment, but actually the salary is irrelevant because everyone will be offered “pay as you go” flying. Yes it might eventually lead one day to a full time job, they say 1 year, but who knows it could be 2,3,4 or even never and that’s a big gamble for someone with a family and a mortgage to pay. If people are trying to make this decision they should at least have the relevant facts. If you accept a Flexi contract on the basis that you might one day get a full time position you are putting a lot of faith in a company that have openly demonstrated they don’t want employees.

Everyone’s situation is different so I am not making any judgments about the rights and wrongs of people accepting but as a professional it bothers me that pilots are being selected not on their ability or experience but on their willingness to accept sub standard working conditions. Whatever people decide good luck, just sharing my experience and thoughts.