No,, £572 per week

it cost too much to have £3500 a month so I went for cover that will pay for the important stuff and enough left for food and general crap after.

WWW - I know exactly what I net and it is a very fair sum thanks. Its a lot more than the people that have been made redundant under the protection of BALPA. And its a lot more than the hundreds of young guys and girls that are currently unemployed and prepared to do anything to get a job. That's the market we operate in. An employers market. Like houses, we're subject to that market. Anyone who doesn't understand that shouldn't be operating in a commercial environment. Try the Post Office would be my advice.
And FYI... I've never slept in my car, nor do I know anyone that has done so. You surely can't be as pig ignorant as you make yourself out to be? Forgive me, but aren't you meant to be a moderator? Shouldn't you be setting an example instead of talking out of your arse? Block me if you like - I won't be reading this thread again. You should close it if you have any sense which you obviously haven't.

And FYI I've seen RYR pilots sleeping in their cars.

You dislike BALPA and you think its fine that Wannabes be exploited. Its a free country..


WWW

WWW,

I have seen BA and Virgin pilots sleeping in their cars.

What is your point again?

What I find depressing about this debate is not the bile exhibited amongst fellow pilots (which I can live with), but that it's really apparent many in the industry have lowered their expectations so much.

As has been noted already, a 100 years of social progress is being undone. Our forefathers, through organisations like BALPA, have campaigned over many years to improve our lot and many seem to be content to see all this go and in it's place working piecemeal for a shekel or two.

When Ryanair's lack of 'extras' is remarked on, their pilots retort only seems to mention uniform and IDs and the like. These aren't extras I'd be concerned about, think about PHI for when you go sick and employer pension contributions for when you're old. My lot provide PHI, which pays out 75% of pre-disablement salary up to retirement age, after that you can rely on a pretty descent pension. For info, a yr 2 F/O can expect the company to tip in £7500 per annum into his pot and this amount will increase in line salary increments and command etc.

Please take what bigots like D O Guerrero say about BALPA with a pinch of salt (suspect some sort of agenda is behind it and I doubt it's altogether wholesome), it's not the union that is causing job loses, it's to a degree inept management to blame, but moreover a factor of being a mature business. Things are fine and dandy in Ryanair whilst it's expanding and it may seem infallible now (Air Europe anyone?), but sooner or later this will stop. It will then be a mature business. When the next downturn happens, which it will...(!), I predict Ryanair will drop who it likes like a hot stone. From 1st hand experience over the years, BALPA, through member elected Company Councils, put a lot of effort into cajoling managements into things like voluntary severance and stand down. Don't expect such niceties with Ryanair.

Ryanair has provided very rapid advancement for many and provided a home for those who until now have been travellers around the industry. This is very good, however it's come at a price. Many here don't seem to aspire to more than a healthy pay check and are oblivious to the sense of professional dignity that inherited traditions within longer established carriers provide. When I see a Ryanair 737 park on the apron, I'm very sorry to say this, but the dark satanic mills of the Victorian era.

This fixed pattern roster thing. Now I can see the advantages in terms of planning life outside work, but we only have 900 per annum and with the pretty intense flying which the lo-cost airlines do, being available to work all of those days all year round will grind you down over the years, further more, with Ryanair's terms & conditions, when the 900 hr limit is breached, your pay will either reduce dramatically or stop all together.

As to what to do about this mess, well, shoot me down if you want, and I'm sure many will, but you need to get a union in there. It won't be able to perform miracles, but over time it will engender a sense of solitary amongst the workforce and start to improve your lot. As noted there is a lot to improve!

Security at Birmingham regularly move on Ryanair "campers" from the car park! Im guessing they didnt get the premium car park pass :p

Im told at Belfast a Ryanair pilot lives in a camper van in the car park, I assume a Captain as he can afford the premium car park pass and camper van.

I admire the blinkered loyalty of some of the Ryan pilots on this thread, I can only assume most if all have never worked for any other company. Wait till you become expensive see how fast MOL drops you!

O and for the record I have never applied to or had any wish to apply to ryanair! I do however know several guys who work for, and have worked for ryan and have nothing good to say about them what so ever, other than the roster is ok if it suits your lifestyle. In fact most of the afore mentioned guys advise friends and family to avoid them like the plague! Tell me why would they say that with all the insider knowledge they have??

Ha ha, have you ever actually tried to make a claim?

You may be suprised by the fact you didn't mention to them that you sneezed 3 years ago has actually made your policy void.

Do you not see anything slightly amiss with your statement? Or see in it the exact problem that most people have with RYR?

Yep. I can. The only time I've ever fallen asleep is when I was in the taxi on the way back to my normal base. You see, the CAA aren't keen on you driving to other airfields other than your nominated base before a duty.

There are good reasons for that. Let me guess, you have to drive your own car to the other base too.... FFS, even Emerald airways (that doyen of staff care and consideration) didn't do that. (Well, they tried but got told off.)

The nearest RYR base that you can drive to would be Dublin, so you are saying that crews regularly drive for over 2 hours to another airport BEFORE a duty... :eek: Then drive home afterwards... Holy cow.

Well, I've just used a small bit of deduction and logic to work out that if you are based in Belfast and you often see people driving from other bases, then for crews based elsewhere, the nearest other base is over 2 hours away. Not rocket science.

What motorway services have got to do with aircrew fatigue I have no idea. You don't seem to be able to grasp the basic fundamentals of what I'm saying.

Whatever your thoughts, might I suggest you read a little document called CAP371, of course you aren't bound by it as you work for an Irish company and it is an advisory document for the rest of us as our own FTL manual takes precedence. See what it says about positioning before a duty. Note the word BEFORE.

Driving to your normal base is one thing, driving to another completely different. Let me guess, you don't sign on for work until you reach the other base either...

I used to be based 360 miles from where I lived, so I'm used to this issue. It is easily manageable by making sure you have somewhere to stay that isn't your car. Hard to do when you are being shuttled around the country from one day to the next.

Having learnt my trade on aircraft that didn't have toilets fitted, then I recommend you carry a bottle a bit bigger than a 500ml lucozade one.

If you can't work out the potential fatigue issues with this, then may I humbly suggest you try. Fatigue is a killer, end of story. I know more than one person who has ended up upside down in the central reservation of the M1 on the drive home from another base. After a punishing duty.

It ain't big and it certainly isn't clever. Or does fatigue not affect people who work for RYR?

Has anyone ever wondered, in their argument that RYR are making such good profits reletive to others, if they are comparing apples with apples. Many on this thread, in other occupation, argue that they are receiving pension contributions, PHI cover, no deductions for uniforms/sims etc. plus other duty benefits. RYR pays nothing of these. Further, they 'employ' more than 50% contractors. Thus they save a massive amount on government premiums. They also have the most extensive of add on charges for pax. Indeed, the travel section of DT calculated that in 2008 they made 650m on charges, but only 350m profit. Thus most of their profit is from avoiding employment costs common to most industries and other ancillery charges. Talk to your friends who earn over 50.000pa and ask them about their benefits included in their T's & C's as standard. Ask any friends who earn +80.000. You'll be amazed what they receive, AND expect. Look to ourselves and see how cheaply you've sold your souls. Then consider that if RYR had to pay these similar costs to its airline competitors what its profits would be. I suspect very little if any.

Nope, you just don't get it do you? Why would you need service stations? What has that got to do with anything to do with fatigue management?

Why are people parked up? If they are because of what you say, then how can you possibly say it's a sensible thing. You shouldn't need to fall asleep in your car before a duty. If you're early, then just go in and get things sorted out for the day at work. If you are falling asleep before you start work, then that is a serious problem.

There's a fairly easy test. On a cold night, if the car windows are full of condensation and the bonnet is cold, then they've been there a while.

Now, earlier on you said that you've never seen anyone doing it, now you're saying we should knock on their windows and ask.

So, what is it? Do RYR pilots sleep in their cars?

If you work for a pikey, then you should expect to live like a pikey:bored:

Sleeping in cars is not a 'priviledge' reserved only for FR pilots.

Last Boxing Day night, in the absence of anywhere to stay near Base, I slept in my freezing car.

With ice forming on the inside it proved a thoroughly misserable experience. But, I needed the gig.

I am not with FR but with a private Biz Jet Op.

If this is the calibre of thought from someone who calls themselves a pilot, then I truly am saddened. No wonder our profession is in trouble. :(

BigNumber, did you not think a hotel might be a sensible idea? They are often pretty cheap at that time of year. How do you think the person you were flying would have reacted had you told them of your previous nights accomodation?

I too have slept in cars before, but never before work, usually at sailing events across Europe and it is a miserable experience and it is virtually impossible to get any form of decent rest. So when you wake up, you are already shattered and whilst you might think you are ok to go, you really, really aren't.

I would hope that anyone who likes to think of themselves as a Professional would understand this and then either refuse to do it, or use some nouse and find suitable accomodation.

It seems it is only financial constraints that are forcing people to sleep in cars and that is simply not a good enough excuse.

Mind you, if you had the ability to negotiate your contracts to something resembling a decent one, then perhaps the financial pressures wouldn't be so prevalent and the company might even pay for your accomodation away from home base. Some of you seem to think that this is crazy talk, when in reality it's nothing short of the absolute bare minimum you should expect.

Talk about having low expectations and no pride in yourself or our profession.

SAS, God help the rest of us then!

:}

Please excuse my comments here but not to be too delicate about this,what on earth do these 'sleepers in cars' do for ,ahem,ablutions? The hygiene aspects of this cost -saving exercise in order to maximise the massive ryr package seem to leave something to be desired.I doubt whether the former eastern-bloc hosties will be too impressed with b.o.(neither would I if sat next to you).

cheers

http://static.flickr.com/3569/3687678555_de95002f58.jpg

+

http://thm-a04.yimg.com/image/f4d9cc2b90f45df2

Alpine Skier, I think you might have misread my post - I'm suggesting a way for Whistleblower to get what he wants - and its not going to be through withdrawal of labour. Whistleblower by name - Whisleblower by nature might have the desired effect. The travelling public put safety above all else and time pressured pilots relying on the packed lunch they may or may not have had the time to prepare before they left at 4:00am are a safety concern. As are all of the other practices being forced upon RYR crew. The market will vote with its feet. At the moment they vote RYR because they see price as the overriding factor but they are mis-informed - and markets only work properly if all information is available. If they understood the risks involved in taking the seat for 99p they might buy elsewhere.

Anyone who thinks pre-flight rest(*) can be taken in a car should have their licence revoked.

If suitable accommodation can't be found, a call to Crewing should follow, informing them you are unfit for duty.

This is how I'd expect a professional pilot to act and what the paying public have a right to expect.

[* - not talking about 5 minutes with eyes shut when you beat the traffic.]

If our pilots want hotel accomodation either prior to or after an out-of-base duty they know they only have to call us and we'll arrange it, no questions asked.

If an out-of-base duty has an 04:00 report then I wouldn't dream of sending them down immediately before the duty. By default I'd position them the previous day (By car, and a nice one, not a Minicab!) and they'd go into the hotel (A decent one) for their rest.

In cases where they're called out from Standby to an out-of-base duty I'll often have a car collect them from home if it helps the smooth running of the operation.

Reading this thread as a crewing bod from a charter airline I'm genuinely shocked at what RYR pilots put up with. Our cabin crews get better treatment than RYR pilots by the sounds of things. :eek:

Quite agree Barden! but then who would do the revoking...the CAA...dream on.....regulatory authority.....more like head buried firmly in sand. They will only act when the politicians get involved after the smoking heap..... just like the FSA and all the other regulatory authorities who are supposed to oversee what goes on. It is pathetic:*

Brookfield pilots on standby
 

Well,

I am not to sure how many Brookfield pilots are reading this thread, but to me it is making excellent reading!

Just thought I would let a few of you know that Ryanair have got a nice new trick!

They have over the last couple of months been calling FOs off standby and telling them they have to operate in the SIM as someone is doing an LPC/OPC and the other pilot is unable to attend.
This means that the standby BRK FO is going into the sim centre and doing at least 4-5 hours in the sim, and then NOT GETTING PAID!! Not a single penny. Brookfield are saying 'this shouldn't be happening' as you are only paid for Scheduled Block Hours whilst in the aircraft, and Ryanair are laughing their heads off because they have had someone in the sim for free!!
It seems to be happening only to FOs because obviously the captains are able to operate on Line Flights from either seat, (which makes sense).

Summery: 5 hours at work, flying in the sim which DOES NOT COUNT TO YOUR OWN LPC/OPC, and then not getting paid. Ryanair wins wins wins!

Maybe everyone here who knows a BRK pilots should inform them that this is going on, so each person can make up their own mind as to whether they will reject this duty if called by Crewing, because they WILL NOT GET PAID! (Just a suggestion).

:eek: You are kidding, right? We can't call people off SB for Sim duties full stop, but even if we could we damn sure wouldn't expect them to do it for nothing!

I fervently hope that RYR's practices don't spread to the rest of the industry. I wonder if they have a sign outside their head office that reads "Now wash your hands". :(

The sim duty is true unfortunetly

I have been called off standby twice to do a sim spare body duty, I thought I was getting paid for it and I didnt, the 2nd time I was called I asked crewing why I was not getting paid and they gave some bull!!!! answer and hung up before I had chance to reply.

spoken to BRK about it and was told the would call back with an answer and they didnt, called again and was told they would call back and they didnt!

next time I get called I will be asking for paying for it or I wont be going.

Drip-feed the answer ?
 

@asdf1234

I cannot see how I misread your post.

You are saying ( or if you aren't, why did you write about it ) that FR pilots might allow themselves to get into such a state of dehydration and hunger ( famine ? ) as to potentially endanger the aircraft.

To me you seem to be sugesting that these ( hypothetical ) pilots are so tight or so moronic, that they would be unable/unwilling to feed and water themselves during the normal working day ?

Obviously in this ( I hope, ludicrously overblown )scenario the issue of who is paying for it is irrelevant.

a shed load of brk f/os they dont get fed remember!!
you could probably even charge them to sleep there.2k a nite but you're not guaranteed a bed:}

Regarding pilots sleeping in cars. I took a cup of our free coffee to a Ryan sleeper. Nice guy trying to pay off debt as quickly as possible, can't fault him really. I guess it's all about cultural norms. Jo public would assume that at least we stay in a travel logde or similar. My colleagues would think it outrageous if we were not provided with accom.

Cultural norms take only a few years to establish and longer to dis establish. So what cutural norms are going to be established through this recession? Would BALPA allow sleeping in cars to happen? Not in my opinion. Collectively a bunch of switched on guys who work with senior managers and directors, they would mutually agree accomodation for pilots is cast in stone and expected by the travelling public.

Don't really understand this anti Balpa sentiment, unless your a manager. Even so retiring on 2/3 final salary for 600 hrs per year probably beats the financial reward given to non union airline managers. 100% membership = a strong collective bargaining position. How many doctors belong to the BMA and how many lawyers are members of the law society? Balpa aren't 70's shop stewards but hard working campaigners at many levels who do get visibilty and respect from many inside and outside the industry.

Why am I posting? Because I have enjoyed a fulfilling career and the trappings of a proffesion. To see guys sleeping in cars is outrageous even more so for it to be denied. To see newcomers doing 900 hrs per year with no pension or real way out fills me with dread. 600 hrs over 30 odd years has its moments of tiredness but 900 and having to juggle acomm. Just hope people like me are never called to testify in court when trying to paint the picture of modern aviation (not singleing any operator out here).

Don't keep "paying mill owner for permission to come to work".

To digress for a while, let's not forget the food hygiene issues with bringing in your own food.

In the case of a long day day, sandwiches and the like may have been purchased or prepared at home 12+ hours previously and not stored in a temperature controlled environment.

With company supplied crew food, the supply chain can be properly managed and if a problem is identified, be corrected.

Recently our company identified an issue with sandwiches and salads, pulling the salads (hopefully temporarily) and altering some of the sandwich fillings. It's now recommended we eat the sandwiches on outbound sectors. Of course crew food allocation contains hots, which are heated thoroughly before being consumed. The crew food isn't the last word in taste and nutrition, but at least it's safe!

If anyone things on board food hygiene is a trivial matter, in the not too distant past one of our pilots almost died from eating a contaminated sandwich. Food poisoning is the number one reason for flight crew incapacitation, and from personal experience it can strike very quickly, without warning and leaves one helpless and unable to continue operating safely.

All of this nicety completely passes Ryanair by. Hungry pilots aren't conducive to flight safety, but having them consume potentially unsafe food is even worse.

First hand experience, V1 Rotate, captain sick and start vomiting after rotation....not a good sight or time...yes RYR.

D

safe food?
 

personally, i have had food supplied by the airlines and now food supplied by myself.

and i must say i have complete confidence in the food i supply.

it is not rocket science. if you are careless and thoughtless about your own food, where is the assurance that others on minimum wage will always be better in the foods they prepare for the airlines.

even Sully who landed in the river worked for an airline in which crews had to bring their own food. and all the managers must have heard or read that and soon it will be industry wide.

i prefer having the control of what i eat. sorry we don't agree.

Bring back the kids!!
 

For the sake of us all on standby bring back more posts from The Real Dim Shady and Flinters!!:ok: I've already eaten my (free) full english in the hotel and ironed my (free) uniform, now what?....I demand more entertainment!

What a great 'debate'! I can only assume that Dim Shady is one of the 'car sleepers' and clearly so exhausted when he comes on-line that he spouts such rot in his delirious stupors!!

Not been a visitor here for a while, but no surprise to see The Real Slim Shady, the company lickspittle, once again spouting his tiresome rhetoric and RYR propoganda ......

Surprised to see that Mrs RSS, (aka Abusing_the_Sky ) hasn't jumped in and leapt to his defence, as was the case the last time those nasty pilots were being unkind to him.

Still age gap relationships, never seem to last long do they ? ........

Whistleblower's Broken Horn.
 

Depends on your point of view, Aldente, but I note with interest that your slovenly instincts and fondness of slime stand, radiant as ever, in heroic defiance of any rehabilitation. What a despicable reprobate you are, old boy, and in what good company too. ASFKAP, Barden and the redoubtable Aldente all on the same page. An unwholesome gathering if ever I saw one.

Poor old Whistleblower, the failed pilot of County Wicklow whose capacity for hot air varies inversely with stature, starts a thread in bad faith, designed expressly to put a bit of muck about, and almost immediately it descends with the velocity of an enthusiastically greased crowbar into a bit of anti-Ryanair biffo-slappo. Well done, lads, well done indeed, but there’s that pesky little thing called truth that oft gets in the way and I’m just the Camel to remind you of it. When measured against the facts of life, rather than the fantasy world you clearly belong to, you’re left sounding like so many disgruntled chickens in a rained-upon henhouse from hell.

The first thing that needs saying is to address those sad, deluded misanthropes who try to advance the argument, apparently with a straight face, that pilots who choose to advance their careers by purchasing a Type Rating are single handedly responsible for an industry-wide reduction in terms and conditions and, worse still, are somehow lesser pilots for the process.

Nothing could be further from the truth. TRTO’s like Ryanair and many others, offer type-rating training and do so as a business. There is no compunction to purchase, and even lesser compunction to provide employment thereafter, but Ryanair does offer employment and in colossal quantities too, a fact you’re clearly keen to overlook.

How dare you have the effrontery to suggest that it remains the purview of only the lucky few who obtain sponsored type ratings with loss-making legacy carriers? The arrogance is utterly breathtaking. An extension of that fatuous logic would return the business of flying to the bad old days when only the wealthy could afford to fly, and when flag carriers were protected from the cold commercial world by deep-pocketed governments with barely a care for the bottom line.

Profits were meaningless and airlines were run as “social projects”. Well, I’m afraid it’s a different world now, gentlemen, whether you like it or not. The genie is well and truly out of the bottle and the bitch likes what she sees. It's called the free market and Ryanair is it's Gorilla-in-chief.

Secondly, you miss the most significant point in the stories of those young pilots who take the plunge and make a substantial investment in themselves in order to advance their careers ahead of those possessed of more timid dispositions. Ryanair only takes the best of applicants, as anyone who has undergone our recruitment procedure knows only too well. Those who take part in a Ryanair Type Rating know full well that they stand an excellent chance of making it on line with a wildly successful LCC, and commencing their careers in a way that’s hard to imagine eclipsing.

Brand new aircraft and rapid promotions in a world-leading organisation like Ryanair will never be the professional objective of everyone, especially the terminally aggrieved windbags of the BALPA proselytizers, but then it was ever thus. Every other airline is downsizing or going bust, but that doesn't matter does it? Have you so soon forgotten, you few agitators who forlornly cling to the view that BLAPA are of any more substance than an oily fart in a blizzard, that in truth they’re as useless as tits on a bull? When asked to !!!! or get off the pot, BLAPA always choose the latter. It was ever thus and always will be.

Well folks, after an entirely underwhelming response from Ryanair pilots, whose fate, it seems, is to be forever forced into repeatedly demonstrating they don’t want BALPA recognition, even after BLAPA’s embarrassingly expensive 2.5 million pound apotheosis to thinly conceived half-arsery that they called their “Dignity and Respect” campaign, they got off the pot alright, and in a timely fashion too, because had they put up properly, they’d have been compelled to shut up for a further three years...oh happy day. From Aldente & Co. we’re witnessing nothing more than the pressing of very sour grapes indeed.

Finally, if you seriously expect a rational public to accept there are pilots sleeping in their cars, you’re stretching BLAPA’s Bull!!!!ometer to breaking point. Can you seriously expect that a pilot who shells out nigh-on €100,000 on a frozen ATPL, and thousands more still on a type rating, feels compelled by virtue of lack of available funds to sleeping in a carpark? Absolute bull!!!! on stilts. After type rating and line training, a matter of mere weeks, Ryanair pilots are pulling in serious coin. Those on a BRK contract are on the most financially lucrative first officer contracts on earth, a fact well known to the bottom feeders at BLAPA, hence their interest in pursuing all those lovely thousand pounds per year. I would too were I broke with a bunch of militant, final-salaried employees sucking me dry. They know it alright, but it’s not in their interest to advertise the fact.

Whistleblower asks “when will Ryanair pilots learn”? I think the more pertinent question is “when will BLAPA and the Irish pygmy IALPA learn? You are not wanted here. You are well known as the devious, back-door bores and purveyors of third-rate bull!!!!, threats and intimidation that you are. We have your measure, we see your true colours, and yet you persist. Why?

http://talkpractice.files.wordpress....09/05/yawn.jpg

Do you ever have anything useful to contribute other than invective?

It's not what you say, but how you say it. Any point you might have is lost in the sheer drudgery of you spittle inflected rantings.

Leo,

Welcome back. As defensive as ever about your organisation and as rabid as ever against any threat (as you perceive it) that might expose the sham of Ryanairs claim of their pilots to be among the best paid.

So that you can convince us all of this claim I will ask you (again!), what do Ryanair pay into your pension?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Do you actually believe this? RYR has got some extremely good crews undoubtedly, but I do know a few people who work for that organisation who shouldn't be in charge of counting paperclips, let alone a public transport aircraft.

I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice that rather than deal with the points raised (other than issue a bland denial of the sleeping in the car story despite someone posting here or in the other thread that they gave coffee to some poor sod doing just that) Leo Hairy immediately tries to drag this over to the union debate.

That'll be the 'smoke' part then.


And that'll be the mirrors. Surely you mean Brookfield? Didn't think RYR employed any n00bs these days. Isn't that how they avoid things like tax, NI and all the othe necces.....sorry, luxuries?

I'm currently a 5/5 BRK floating FO. I'm very early 20s, got nearly 2000 hrs flying 100 hours per month - mad keen and really enjoy it.

Maybe one day it'll wear on me, but I am a little disappointed to see so much animosity between all of us who share the same airspace. I try and be as professional as possible to represent my trade, and hope I'm not looked down on after I climb into a 738 blue, yellow & white jet.

I do understand where a lot of the anti Ryanair campaign arises from, and some points made are valid. But understand why as a whole the Pilot group from Ryanair stand united against (please don't misconstrue this for pro BALPA) various onslaughts, it is a good place to work. Nice new aircraft, I flew one today that was 3 weeks from production line, really friendly people to work with daily, great training department and a promising early upgrade and possibilities of further advancement to your CV with TRE, SFI, LTC and base captain positions always being offered.

Finally from a financial side of things, as I said I fly a lot, I get 100.5 euro per hour, and last four months I've done 400 hours....I'll let you calculate. I've paid my debts off already and I'm looking forward to a good future here.

This isn't a invitation to a pointless fight, I just thought I'd share my experience so far. Take it or leave it!!

All the best