Arresta,

Sadly even if RS does read this I fear it will make no difference - Goodwill and morale mean nothing when you are driven by a huge profit related bonus and when you spend all winter on the ski slopes.. PB has to take action. I hear that many FO's are now seriously considering turning down commands as going right seat on 320 is not an option.. Those that have already gone across have warned their mates - the lifestyle is rubbish and with allowances they are better off where they are!! In order to fill all the vacant sim slots it appears that those in line for command from other fleets will first have to do a LH seat conversion and then have to serve 6 months on the bus in the LH seat.. what a nice xmas present that will be.. still, it beats a 25 quid M&S voucher...oops.

As to where some captains are considering, why do you mention a pay cut? Direct entry to EasyJet is looking a damn sight better than Monarch - stable roster, excellent T&C's; 5 on 4 off and rumours of better to come..

SB

Ryanair would provide a nicer lifestyle than Monarch 320/321, since they manage to avoid 18-30 rest periods and have more days off.

Jet2 would be better, since you wouldn't contantly be doing 900 hours.

Easy is now in a diferent league to Monarch - a much superior employer.

e cam, its the rules that force 18-30 hrs, not Monarch. Ezy do 18-30 rest periods also but not as many as they have fewer night flights. You Moanarch boys have got a real hang up about 18-30hr rest periods, why dont you get the company council to suggest an approach to the CAA aka EZY 5 on 4 off etc. And you forgot to mention that a lot of folk won't jump because of the nice pension at 55???.
:\

5 on 4 off sounds good untill you remember a D/O can end at midnight and statr at 6 am with easy and often does with those 4/5 sector days. You'll have more evenings at home when you can have a few beers with Monarch if you draw out a typical pattern and do the sums.
Also hours spent on D/Os is very similar, and in fact quite a bit better in Monarch if you allow that after a Mon D/O you generally can't fly the morning wave or fly the afternoon wave before one.
Has even a single pilot left Monarch for easy yet (other than CTC)?

Mr Angry, did you ever work for Monarch?

At least two leaving this month, however the majority hanging on for Virgin and BA. 90% of F/O's I fly with are looking to leave asap and I've got my eyes open.

I struggle to believe that somebody would turn down a command just to stay on the A330.
Perhaps there is another reason?
Was he pushed or did he fall? :ugh:

So that's a "no" then Whoops. No-one has ever left us for easy.
Why would you leave a co where TTC was sub 2 years even if on the 320 to go to another co that flies the same type to do longer in the RHS to get a command on the same type only later where you will do more boring flying with 4 or 5 sector days and zero chance of long-haul coz your airline has no long haul aircraft? No private health cover at all, sick pay of 37% of Monarch's and LoL of 65% of Monarch's and Leave Days at 76% (28 days). DC pension virtually the same if you contribute 8%. Their Staff Travel is better mind (wouldn't be hard) and they have sector pay and better "A" scale pay. Yes more "days off" but is this better quality time off, bearing in mind that how they've got to this is by exploring what doesn't work first i.e. knackering their pilots too much up till now. Hardly a model employer. That's not to say Monarch isn't currently doing the same thing mind.
I agree the fact we're even having this discussion is significant but surely it means that Monarch is going to have to improve Ts & Cs to avoid a serious experience shortage? Isn't it sort of inevitable?
Those leaving might want to pause for a few months. From the point of view of those staying, the more that leave the more the pressure on Ts and Cs increases, so bring it on.

Well actually, its a yes. I could name several who have left us after 3-4 years and within a year have got their command at easy!

Well they certainly are now.
For the money. At lot of F/O's are still paying training debts or have young families and big mortgages. They will earn more at Easy.

Mr Angry...
 

"And you forgot to mention that a lot of folk won't jump because of the nice pension at 55???."

Joiners over the last 2 years are not on a nice pension as you put it. They are on a defined contribution scheme into which they have to contribute 8% in order to get 8% from the company. It's the worst pension I have found amongst major UK airlines - I believe it is even marginally worse than Easy.

Also Easy Captains start on 10k more than Monarch's now - so if you are going to be doing SH on the A320 series why not do it for 10k more with a more stable roster and less 18-30 rest periods? Sounds tempting to me....

Rushed Approach,

Those 2 boys in the North (niether are CTC - well 1 definitely isnt) are leaving us for EZ for 2 reasons. Money, they pay more and a base in Scotland.

Also as hard as it is to fathom, not everone wants long haul. In fact that prospect (with a free 330 rating) is the carrot keeping a lot of guys from jumping to the likes of EZ with its stable roster and larger salary, sector pay and pension. Thats the only reason im hanging about and have not applied. Dunno where you got your info that command will take longer over there though.... they're still desperately short of Captains and as soon as you are eligable the left hand seat beckons.......

Sphinx is absolutely correct. The pension for us newbies in the company is pretty crap. And i know a number of FOs not contributing to it with the intention of buggering off as soon as a better deal comes along (myself included - unless Monarch pick up their act).

I hope they do as I really enjoy flying with this company, the people are great to work with, but money (lifestyle) talks.... Hopefully more leave and the T&Cs improve greatly!

If these chaps are so money driven, why are they throwing 8% of their salary down the toilet by not contributing to the Monarch scheme?

At Easy they will get 7% from the company anyway plus another 2% and if they contribute 8% themselves that will be 17% total compared with Monarch's 16% total with 8% from them in each case.

Yes the Monarch scheme needs improving but to not contribute at all is just crazy. Your early contributions are the most important as they have the longest time to roll up before you retire.

I didn't mean the time to command was longer at easy, just that with it sub 2years in Monarch there isn't much in it by the time you've moved and done a year or so RHS.

It goes up every year on the aniversary of your start date.

Yr 1 42032
Yr 2 42688
Yr 3 43398
Yr 4 44109
Yr 5 44820
Yr 6 46043
Yr 7 46946
etc, etc till year 13. Haven't flown with anyone recently who plans to stay that long though.

Sod it!
 

Right mind made up, anyone know when the Virgin application will be opened again?

Longarm unless I'm mistaken or have an old schedule A, F/O increments only go upto year 11 (£50,559).
Then there is a big black solid line across the paper that means for those joining after 01 Nov 2004 tough luck thats your lot, increments stop here.:{

Crossfeed you are absolutely correct. I'll blame it on being tired and having an inability to read properly. So the max as crossfeed says is 50 559. For those who joined before the November 2004 f/o's max is 66,681 (13 year SFO B scale).

You can see why its not as popular as it used to be.

Max possible for a pre November 2004 pilot is actually even more, being £68681 (£66681 +[£66681 x 3%]) when the twenty year continuous service payment of 3% is added that post November 2004 pilot's have not got in their contract. Not exactly the same carrot now days.........£50559......

Why the T&Cs are crap.
 

For any non Monarch pilots reading who don't know the story. The cost saving exercise started by recruiting 30 odd ctc cadets in early 2004 to serve a six month 'trial employment' period. You can understand why the existing pilots were upset with the dilution of experience of a relitively small company and the strain it put the trainers under. But you get 30 pilots for free for 6 motnhs!
After six months some of us were offered permanent contracts and some were not. The trouble was the market was still slack after 2001, airlines were not recruiting and the cadets had to take any opportunity they were being offered, even if this involved; a £32k starting salary (low hrs pilots) , capped salaries, one of the worst money purchase pensions I have seen and many other kicks in the arse.
We knew this was a rubbish deal and were concerned that we would be undermining the position of the company council and everything they had fought for over the years if we accepted it. Behind the scenes we had all agreed to stand firm and not accept the offer until we got the old one or it was significantly improved. What happened next I did not expect from Monarch.
We were split into three groups of 10, those they were 'definately offering jobs to', those they 'might' and those who can go and find employment else where thanks very much. The letter which accompanied the offer effectively said to those of us in the 'definite' 10, ' You have a week to sign this contract and if you don't accept it, your job will be offered to someone in the 'maybe pile'. So we were stuffed and had no choice. Divide and rule! The cheek of it was every one in the 'maybe' pile was offered a job anyway! They couldn't refuse the contract because 10 of us had just signed it:*
It set the precident and everyone joining after 1st Nov 2004 has to suffer the same deal. So RS has saved the company a lot of money he must be doing a good job!
But has he noticed how suddenly Monarch is no longer the place to stay and build a career for new joiners. How many people have left in the last 18 months for greener pastures? What is the cost of recruiting, type rating, line training, kitting out with uniform all these new guys that are being hired to replace the leavers? But that will be costed somewhere else so books still look good.

What do i do!!
 

Hi Guys. due to start with moanrch in jan...was really looking forward to it. I was leaving easy to come to monarch but now i am very unsure... have 500hrs and due cmd with easy this time next year! any suggestions as i am really confused now:eek:

Quite right cparker, not free due to expenses and initial training costs, but 30X£40K salaries saved.

Not exactly 30 times 40K if you are talking about 6 months ? it would be half that wouldn't it ? I am not au fait with the arrangements between CTC and Monarch but the crews are not supplied for free. This arrangement predates 2004 by a long way, many of the initial CTC pilots are now Captains on the various fleets. Additionally there are significant additional training costs for large numbers of low hour pilots who need more resources. More training captains, more training sectors per individual. Nevertheless the cost benefits must still outweigh the negatives since so many low cost operators now do it.

Undoubtably there was a cost saving factor in recruiting so many low hour pilots, they are after all "low hour pilots". The people who are not thrilled are those experienced pilots from the military and other airlines who are now in direct competition for these same right seat placements. However the company no doubt had to look at what was going on in other low cost operations and compete accordingly.

Perhaps one day the situation will revert to that, where such low hour pilots are politely told to come back when they have aquired more experience ? In the meantime make hay while the sun shines. I believe that it is the insurance market that one day ( should it feel compelled to do so) will drive the market back to more "experienced" co-pilots.

Why? How many accidents have been attributed to low experienced FO's? I read a lot of AAIB incident reports and I have to say I don't recall seeing many incidents caused by low experienced FO's. I'm sure there are a few, however there are also many reports where very experienced flight crew have made mistakes.
.

Pitts1
Funnily enough I am going in exactly the opposite direction to you. Having worked for Monarch for a year and a half out of Man on the 320/321 I put my money where my moaning mouth was and finally did my last flight for them on Friday. For myself there were a few contributing factors that to be fair were not all to do with Monarch - however the rostering is a joke which leaves you so tired when you are off that all you can do is try to recover for the next stint. To add to this you can forget weekends off and any kind of a family life. The only saving factor for me was the bunch of people you work with day to day as you could not wish to work alongside any better people. That is really the only thing I will miss.

Office Pest

Pitts, Office Pest is right in rgds that your days off are pretty much recovery days. And good bye weekends. Our new scheduling agreement allows only 3 Sat/Sun combo days off by request a season. 2 if you add a Fri.

Just curious as to why you wanted to jump ship? You get paid more at easy, your pensions better as is your roster.

Was it the carrot of the 330? I think all new joiners will be waiting 3 yrs at the very least to see it, unless the company gets more. By then Monarch will have offered you the LHS if you have the req'd hrs. And again easy pay capts more! The 330 is nice but the novelty soon wears off, you do get to spend a week or so in some lovely lovely places.......... but to be home for a handful of days while away ALL the time in summer does grind you down. 1 or 2 trips a month would be ideal and do the rest S/H. But with the RS policy of no cost only the bare min of FOs and Capts are rated on it and thus away virtually permanantly, only flying the 320 to stay current! (LGW crews away the most, MAN crews the least)

If your single its a great. If you have a family or gf/bf not really! But having said that, you'll prob be a capt before flying it...

Bealzebub, i guess you havnt read the latest flight international. It looks like the current market forces have resulted in a new breed of FO (multi crew licence) which won't have a CPL or have even flown a 152 solo before getting to sit alongside you with 300 punters or so behind you. Probably wont be long before you remember the good old days of when one had to at least fly a plane solo before getting the RHS in an airline!

Pitts!! Stay where you are!!

Office Pest voted with his feet and many of us are seriously considering our options... including captains. RS wanted our t&c's to be inline with Britannia... then they became much better than ours.. so he lowered the bar to Easy... then they overtook us.. and now?? The rumour network says RS wants us benchmarked with Jet2 - Do you really want to leave Easy for a an over rated promise of the 330? Trust me, it's not worth it and you will regret it. The folks you fly with our the best but we are all exhausted and dreaming of the revolution:}

Had an ex Easy FO jumpseating up to Scotland with me in recent days. He loves BA but says from a regional angle, easy was great and it looks like the day off agreement is only going to make life a little better.

I on the other hand do not miss the volatile nature of my roster changes, lack of choice of days off or inability to plan my life as a Monarch pilot. I did enjoy the people I must admit but the lifestyle sucked.

Most companies have similar starting pay, pensions and all. The key here is lifestyle and it looks like Easy win over Monarch any day. Sad to say really.

330 was the carrot
 

Yes your right, 330 was the carrot but was told 6 to 12 months!!! Are Monarch short of cmds and would a cmd be quick or still at 6 years. Easy is a good company but some training cpts are bullies which i did not enjoy or appreciate, and this even continues through to lpc and opc!!!! Thought Monarch was a great place to go, and waited several years to get here. But do have family so days off are important..was told that i would fly out of ltn assisgned base but again heard you get sent away to BHX ABZ and other destinations??

Pitts, I don't know where 3 years comes from for the 330 - there are CTC guys and girls going on it now who have been with us less than 2 years and they're only going on it as they haven't got the hours for command this winter, the time for which will be sub 2 years after this winter's lot. Some ex-easy chaps got the 330 much quicker than this so, for once, I would believe what you were told at your interview.

LTN is by far the best place to be based on the 320 until they start schedules from there at the rate the MAN and LGW guys fly (will be a few years yet I think). On the 320 you will do BHX, EDI and AGP voyages but next year there is quite a bit more LTN flying so will be away much less.

And ER the SA hasn't changed our weekend day entitlements - that's the way they've always been - phone GM/AM and ask them!

Pitts,

The ONLY way you'll see the 330 in 6-12 months is if the company gets more. I know for sure they are lookin (was told by a management pilot) for at least 2 or 3 more but when (if) we see them...... who knows. Problems are, a larger pax door req'd for the 90s evac in a charter config, and the right engines. Because our 320s and 321s have different engines, the CAA have stated any new 330s need to have the same engines as our current 2. A current FO joining now will be waiting at least 3 yrs if we stick with just the 2. If you get promoted to the LHS before then, the wait will be at least 8 yrs or more, probably more chance on being typed on the 787.

You'll be happy to know all trainers i've come accross in MON are all fair, and not bullies.

Days off in summer..... well you'll be working hard, real hard. Runs of 5 or 6 with only 2 days off in between are not uncommon. I got plot changed extra days off as i busted my 90hrs in 28days one month. Having said that the 2 sectors a day will feel a lot better than the 4 or 6 sectors your used too.

If your based in LGW you can expect to be sent to EDI for a few days in summer, however the rumour is the 757 guys will cover that next summer. Lots of horrible night flights too.

MAN pilots will get the occasional AGP nightstop which just started again this month. I think they still do ABZ but heard a whisper thats going to LTN crews as well? Someone please correct me.

LTN based pilots get sent EVERYWHERE! Hardly ever fly out of their base but the voyage money makes the bank account look good. Again great if your single but may be a pain with a family. LTN pilots easily make the most money.

BHX as far as i know go nowhere else.

Yes there may well be a CAPT prob shortly, however the raised retirement age will help this out a bit. 4000hrsTT to be considered, rumoured to be reducing to 3500hrs. Will depend on seniority, you may find yourself already having more than those hours but obviously those more senior to you will be promoted first.

Rushed,

The ex-EZ guys that got the 330 early, i believe worked for MON as CTC, went to EZ then came back to MON. This was what i was told, could be wrong.

Yes your right looks like those hired 2 yrs ago and last yr will only (have only) be waiting 2 yrs for the 330. However many many pilots have been hired earlier this year and many more this comming Jan and Feb. Based on that, and the average intake of new 330 FOs per year, it may be some time, ie more than 2 yrs, before they see the 330. If new joiners got bumped onto the 330 by-passing seniority, i imagine there will be a big who-ha about it! If we get a couple more 330s i think virtually everyone will be typed on them and it will be just a matter of waiting on your course date.

Pitts your fate will depend very much on your total hours.

As a LTN based pilot you will do BHX and EDI almost exclusively on voyage (the 757 up there rumour has died I'm told). MAN pilots do the ABZ and you might get the odd AGP too (just restarted this winter). You'll do the odd LGW and MAN voyage too.

You won't do runs of 5 or 6 at LTN very often. This is MAN or LGW stuff. And not many night flights, although there are some out of Brum and the odd late LTN schedule to AGP.

I guess 600 hours would be average in recent years for a LTN base cf 800-900 at MAN or LGW.

Hard flying
 

With easy i average between a 10-12hr day, and i have to say thats hard!! Like to ask when you get sent to edi,agp and bhx are these few days away of week away? Thanks guys, these are the questions i wanted to ask in interview but they were running late, kept waiting for an hour and did not get all my questions answered, so i am really in the dark!!! and :ugh:

Sorry forgot to say i felt thet were very keen on my total hours in the interview which are just over 5000hrs and that i had a atpl which they smiled upon!! Which made me feel that high hour chaps were what they are looking for at the moment!

EDI is usually 3, 4 or 5 days (summer only) but this year there have been Days Off up there too within the run. BHX is generally a run of 5 mornings or afternoons or the dreaded afternoons into nights but there are a fair few BHX based F/Os now so in theory you shouldn't do it that often!

PM me if you want more info.

A nice quick command for you my friend! :ok:

Fact or wishful thinking? If true it beats Ryanair then :} Somehow I can't see MP agreeing to that, but hey, what do I know?

Along with Office Pest I have just left Monarch and have now converted to the Orange ideology ;):}. I must admit my roster looks pretty damn good! Also being able to plan what I will be doing in March is absolutely brilliant. Much like Office Pest I have enjoyed my time with Spotty M, and I miss my ex colleagues very much (Hi to those who may be reading), and the reasons for my move have much to do with basing. BUT what made it a no-brainer, are the TC's at eJ which are quite significantly better than those at Monarch. Time to command may be getting shorter at Monarch, but will it really become as short as ej's? Monarch's training dept are already under considerable strain, will they be able to cope with the extra burden? Time to command at eJ is essentially variable, but can be as low as year if you have the experience. The main bottleneck is, as usual the training capacity. I have been told that people are having to wait 6 to 8 months after their command assesment for a slot on a course.

Both are good airlines, but the advantage now goes to eJ. But with more people voting with their feet who knows what RS will come up with. For now for those wanting to join Monarch from eJ or elsewhere I would say think very very carefuly, and avoid the FBW fleet at all costs.

oh just noticed my screen name is now obsolete. oh well I'll just stick with it for now in memory of the good old days!:ok:

Does Anyone Know!!!!!
 

Hey guys


Does anyone know what the cmd time is for the A320 if you are joining with 5000hrs and previous airline/cmd experience. so people are telling me 6 yrs so are saying 12months-18 months at the longest. Would be grateful if anyone can shed so light on this subject as the time scale is very different.

Thanks guys

Pitts,
Firstly, it does not matter which fleet you are on, you will get your command based on your seniority (at the moment!!) and you will change fleets if required.
At present the time to command is around 6 years, ie those waiting for thier command course this winter have been with here approx 6 years.
The 60+ age rule may prevent it coming down to the 12-18 months you mention however the expansion is expected to continue and many new recruits have very low experience levels.
My guess, and it is a guess, would be that it is unlikely drop below 5 years for the majority. I say that because the low experienced guys will be reaching the required level soon plus there will be very few retirements over the next 5 years.

Pay Details for BACon
 

Hi guys,

From my viewpoint, Flybe is a company that has it's feet firmly planted and is eager to be a better employer and offer as good or better than the comp. Flybe has been good to me and I hope that those of you who work for BACon get what you are looking for by joining Flybe I am sure it is difficult to not know what is going to happen.

They are upping the current terms to match other employers. Can't say the last payrise was much to write home about though. Just wondering if anyone would mind sharing details with a current flybe girl. Wondering about things what day is payday, how much are disruption pay, shift change, day off and any other things you get paid for. What is flight pay like and how much is taxable, etc. Do you get much in the way of dispensation as Flybe just upped that to be in line with other airlines.

Good luck and just to say that Flybe is a happy little family and I for one hope you will be happy when you join.

I am sure our paths will cross at some time or another if you stay.


Thanks
Flygirl:ok: