'Will work for free'
 

Thought some of you might be interested in some musings of mine posted on another forum in regards to this topic:

I've been flying for over 36 years and right now is just about as bad as I've ever seen it for pilot employment worldwide.

One of my pilot friends says that we are our own worst enemies when it comes to pay and working conditions. Pilots who offer their services for free are just at the extreme end of the continuum. The other extreme is pilots lucky enough to be employed at long-standing airlines with strong trade unions and mature contracts. Somewhere in between is the majority of professional pilots, i.e. the rest of us.

As long as professional flying remains a "glory" profession, there will always be a surplus of pilots and many anxious newcomers that are desperate to start their career. This means that employers will continue to have the upper hand in the negotiation of wages and working conditions.

And one other thing......

Over the years I have seen a few disturbing trends such as the proliferation of training bonds and pilots who are paying for their own endorsements. I'm sure for the individual pilots this may have seemed an appropriate maneuver to get a "leg up on the competition" or to "jump start their careers" and for the individual concerned, this has probably proved an effective strategy.

Unfortunately, the cumulative result is that these strategies eventually become the norm to the detriment of all professional pilots and to the advantage of operators.

The same can be said about pilots that are willing to exceed duty days, overload aircraft, operate poorly maintained aircraft and operate without appropriate crew rest.

Many junior pilots today operate in an environment and working conditions more closely identified with indentured servitude.

Welcome to aviation...and the point is????...:confused: :confused: :confused:

..........and the point is that contract flying worldwide is currently "trashed".

Seasonal Contracts with companies in the Europe and Africa area are paying half what they did a year ago and outlook for the future doesn't look good. I have done the unthinkable after 7 years of 6 to 8 month contract work worldwide....I've taken a permanent position in the Middle East. Basically can't afford to work for the current wages being offered on short term contracts.

Found, in the last 4 months, pilots working transport category F.O. contracts for USD 1800 per month with Captains being offered as little as 3K. One check airman contract for the MD-80 is paying 3500 per month for 85 hours before any overtime.

Wonder if the "contractors" are still charging the customer the same and just paying less as per the market. Can't trust the "maggots" as per ACASS for example.

Supply and demand. Do you think contract pilots are the only professionals seeing pay rates half what they were a year or two ago? Ask any IT or telecom contracter!

It's the real world. Rates will go back up when airlines need pilots again. That's not now - they're 10 a penny today.

In 1977 i flew Beech 18's part time at a skydiving club in California...every weekend some young buck would come there and offer to fly for free to build hours...and the manager/ owner would promptly throw them out on their ear...nowadays the supply is there...the demand, somewhat diminished...so it's bound to happen.....in all industries...not just flying..:mad:

It's a "Glory Profession" only if you're 23 years old and haven't been there and done all that. After that it's only 25% fun and 75% about money.

Thanks for the insight "snake".....IT and telecom workers vs contract pilots flying in 3rd world countries on short term contracts.

What was your name again?

>>Why do the Brits work for so much less then [sic] Americans?

from an earlier thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...&threadid=2332

Also, from the thread above The Guvnor said, rather prophetically, in May 2001:

>>If, for argument's sake, one of the US majors were to either go into Chapter 11 or even Chapter 7, you'd have a massive glut of skilled pilots on the market - again. In that scenario, salaries would nosedive as supply once again outstrips demand; and people like you who want the earth will remain grounded.<<

Salaries
 

Yip A300guy is just right. I used to work on B727´s as F/O for a VIP operator. I got over 130K a year easy add the tips and this was around 150k or so. I am lucky to work for a !!!!outfit in Africa that pays when they want to and very little when they finally do. I can pay for my own uniforms and medical, travel and insurance as well as proficiency checks. But then I am lucky to have a job.... Still I did not consider myself lucky so I resigned and got a new job. Not one pilot should work for free or under conditions like those mentioned. I took a big risk when I quit. One needs to have a job to get a job and to keep current.

One could say that there are professional pilots some on the shiny side of the sky and well the others on the wrong side. It hard to get a place in the sun.

I see it from a self esteem point of view. Not in a cocky way but if individuals don't value themselves that much then why would the "employer".
Note that "employer" is used losely since some will actually PAY to work :eek:
Flight International couple of weeks back, a company advertised for a "time building programme" up in Scotland.
A seneca for £75/hr. Cheap I hear you say but then the requirements were:
CPL/IR, Multi Engine, Dangerous Goods, CRm, Fire and Safety. errr... Is it me or sounds more like an advert for a Single pilot job ??? Except it cost money of course.
Outrageous:mad: but legal :(

In my opinion, there'll always be someone desperate enough to fly for free...not saying its a good thing or a bad thing, but I guess you've got to do what is necessary to get you where you want to be because if you don't some other guy will!

F-S

I was on the airline operations side of the fence for a time and now find myself newly qualified as a pilot experiencing all the head aches that I previously really didn't give two hoots about.

Sorry but thats the harsh reality of the aviation industry, airlines take on pilots that fit the profile, hours and age limits. If I now have to work for peanuts for a period in order to meet those requirements then what chioce do I have in order to me my career aspirations.

The older wiser guys out there that can look back on there career and the industry and its demise, I really to understand your point of view but what choice to low hours guys have? Go back to our previous job, let the large investment in the training go to waste? I find it morally wrong what type of bonding arguments airlines offer, especially the one I just came from.

But if offered the position I will take it – if you were being truthful you would also given your time again?
:eek:

Idiots? Creative and independant individuals, more like!
 

What is the difference between paying for an instructor rating or a B757 rating? I will tell you, the answer is absolutely nothing.

Yet paying for an AFI / QFI rating is perceived as acceptable, paying for a B757 rating is not.

I admire anyone who has had the intelligence to do just that little bit more to get ahead. After all, who is he or she responsible to other than themsleves and their families.

So go and get that rating, go and work for nothing (if it enhances your chamces of better employment later) and above all, don't listen to these whiners and whingers on this thread.

Well A300dude, If you've been flying 36 years, and this is as bad as you've ever seen it... then you must have had a pretty soft easy going career (and you must be retired from it now to see how the other half live). Have a chat with some "blue team" canuck sometime if you want to earn a real tear. Enjoy retirement man and put your feet up.

The situation now is not dissimilar to that in the early nineties. I qualified just after the Gulf War and had to start an aerial phot company to keep my licence ticking over. To get a job I had to borrow notes, self study for type exams and then spend dosh on a rating. The companies were only interested in type rated pilots. I got a freelance night freight job with the company I paid cash for the type rating (!!!!) £80 per hour and some experience and then got a pax job with a small regional on the same type. That company had 146's so 3 years later with experience on the 146 I got into BA. That all took 6 years from getting my licence. It was hard work, cost money and took time. To anyone lecturing us about not looking after ourselves, you were either sponsored or had a rich daddy to look after you. It was worth it but if I hadn't pushed myself and probably disadvantaged someone else where would I be now.

Don't come down on people trying to look after themselves and don't expect them to sacrifice a potential career for some ideal that it only takes one person to break to be worthless. Good luck to everyone looking for a job, I know how it feels, stick with it, it WILL be worth it in the end.

Well said!
 

Well said, I cannot agree more.

From the date that I signed the first cheque to the training organisation, to sitting in a jet, it took about the same length of time, six years.

Now, despite my username (Oh, and the location is a bit of a sidewinder too!) I am sitting on the port side of an A330 for a major flag carrier and enjoying the view.

Do I ever think of those not willing to take the risk (for that is what it is; it is hardly shameless leap-frogging) and get heavily into debt to achieve their dreams?

Yes indeed I do. In fact, sometimes I wave to them when we taxy out to depart from 06L in Manchester.

The industry is very well placed for a rapid recovery in the next two years or so. May the optimists and visionaries have their day, I know that I have.

FS2002

Just to go back to the original thread, what is your feeling about working for free.
The type rating is another issue and certainly a very passionate one too.

As for thos who think along not following:

from Atropos
or From [b]Aftcofg[b]
Believe you me, it isn't necessarily the case.

I am not old, not wise, sponsored or with a rich daddy. As for ground jobs and stuffs, i have done it too and I know how lucky i am to have landed a first job which gave me a first break.
But then again instead of moaning about the lack of opportunities for low timers, I got off my bum and went to fetch one far, far away. I would have gone even further if i had too because I really believed I too could fly for a living.

The problem in our industry ins't the lack of jobs (well it is a bit) but a deeper one. In our modern days, everything must happen quickly with the minimum amount of hassle. If it doesn't we either give up, throw our toys out the cot or blame it on "this is the real world".
Sorry but I don't see it that way. The world (or our industry for that matter) is what we make of it. A bit like the Unions. They are only as good as their members.
I am glad, I had never had to work for free but then again whether it was in my gliding days or nowadays, I have always done my best and better. People have acknowledged it and rewarded me with their respect and recognition as a true pro.

I am also glad i don't share some of the above contributors point of view because thanks to that, I have made some really good contacts in the industry which in their own time, will come useful.
Not just for me but for all those I know because I now have a certain knowledge, network (albeit small compared to others) but I am also deemed reliable.
All this flying for free nonsense I never had to do it because noone has ever treated me with that much disrespect.


I maybe be sounding like a dinausor (not a T Rex for nothing;)) but so far I haven't been proved wrong.
Never ever it has been easy to get a decent job as a pilot. This is not new so get on with it and stop blaming the entire world for it.
Do something about it !!

Listening to some of the comments on this, now diverted thread, I could feel isolated and not living in the so called "real world" but fortunately I have met people who think alike. The kind of people who do the Hire and fire, so as long as they exist, no way I m going to change (famous last words when you tell your mates you are going to get married:D)

Since it is down to the individual rather than a law project decided here and now on pprune, I will keep rather quiet. For those who agree and those wo disagree, good luck and see you at the bash. There you wil be able to
-get me a beer
-pour your beer on my head

but as long as it is a Guinnness I don't care :D :D :D

A300 - Very good post! It just blows my mind that so few of us out there have come to the same logical conclusion....
It is a fight for the future of our profession and we are fighting ourselves, ironically.

KADS Unfortunately so true:eek:
In a way when i read about pilots moaning about their T&Cs, I am laughing in despair :(
Give me a gun, i ll just shoot myself before anyone does....

Our industry is full of ironic situations. Here are some related factors.

For example, let's say that your company (as with a US airline yesterday) decides to initiate a discount for up to 40% on leisure fares, as if this decision were forced upon them. They also just announced, on almost the same day, that they have about 1400 excess flight attendants.

They will then plead to the media and the employees (knowing that Wall Street is always listening), by early winter, about the profit-draining "heavy industry discounting", and use this as rational to lay off even more employees, whether pilots or others.

This massive surplus of trained, current pilots on the street automatically give your employer many more "hostages on the street", and more leverage, when they decide to suggest changes to contracts. Check on former American CEO Bob Crandall's strategy in the early 80's, in order to expedite the recall of furloughed pilots and expand the airline. It looks as if Mr. Carty was well-groomed as Crandall's apprentice.

Crandall and his senior pilot toadies, who are all now retired-their final average earnings were based partly upon their "A scale" salaries-introduced the very first pilot "B scale" (substandard pay for up to 20 years) to the industry. Talk about selling the profession down the river.

At US airline (Delta connection) Comair, the pay for training concept was introduced by Flight Safety International, and this allowed a massive expansion in regional jet flying, aided to a large extent by language in mainline Delta's pilot contract, among the weakest scope language ever seen in a US major airline contract (according to "Aviation Week & ST" years ago, about 20% of Delta's pilots were not ALPA members...) . It was a major precedent in the US industry-mgmt thought "Hey, these young kids are perfect suckers, they pay the equivalent of what a 737 or DC-9 type rating costs, and for a tentative FO turboprop job! What a deal for us...!" This reportedly reduced the need for narrowbody jet pilots at Delta. Along with the fact that regional jet FOs work at about US minimum wage and US labor judges allow such discriminatory low wages (which are not based on ALPA formula precedents, which apply in mainline contracts during "mgmt. pattern bargaining").

The explosive growth of regional jets here in the US reduced the need for pilots at the mainline carriers, even without the current slump, and will continue to reduce the need in the future. Statistically, as regionals take over many more routes of the mainline carriers, the major partners will have less need for replacement pilots, whether they come from the regionals, corporate, military backgrounds, or a combination. Much of this is due to Comair's/Delta's precedent. Very disappointing long-term results for "pay for training", after "jumpstarting a career" to the tune of US $10-12,000+. Some even bought a very expensive DC-9 type rating, in order to work at Valuejet for about $2,000/month, with no sick leave, vacation or retirement pay! An FO here, formerly a fighter pilot, then Valuejet Captain, only refers to them as "Ghetto-jet", at least when flying with me (poor guy...).

That Flight Safety Int'l regional simulator training was about the same price as a US jet type-rating, but these pilots who trained to be FOs, were never allowed to have the type rating! This money might have bought a 737 type for a job with Southwest. What a juicy deal between Flight Safety and Comair, which both made tons of money from the "buy a job" concept in the early 90's.

Ha, AMEX you brought back some memories. I had to travel far far away as well to find a flying job that paid some of my bills. I understand the desparation of low-timers, but it is not a solution. This will damage your future pay and ours.

The airline industry has never made sense to me! Let's take a look at the regional pilot issue...

New-hire regional pilots can expect an annual salary of 12K+, after e.g. Comair and dozen of other mostly regional airlines required them to pay up to $14,000 for their own training.

Regional pilots use flightdecks and have workloads that are similar to "airline pilots", although regional pilots typically perform more instrument approaches and landings at more remote airports.

So, if regional pilots are paid so low, the tickets must be really cheap, too? Errrr, no! Comair tickets did not cost half of what Delta tickets did. Then it was said that the regionals were not generating as much $ as the majors because of fewer seats.

Well surprisingly, some of the largest regionals in the US archieved a profit margin of 20% or more (pre 11 Sept) while the major airlines could only show a 3% margin. This was because of the same reason your computer parts are made in China or Taiwan:

Cheap Labour :mad:

Isn't it sad that some companies require you to pay a CV or interview processing fee? That clearly shows disrespect towards us pilots. We're just pushin' buttons up there, right? :mad: Heard that one more than a few times!

The movement of more and more flying to regional associated airlines is NOT going to stop anytime soon. And ALPA has only itself to blame. The major carriers, unable to resist the union pressure for higher salaries, will continue to divert flying to regionals in order to keep the payroll burden within reason. And in return, ALPA gives short-shrift to regional pilot contracts (where they represent them) prefering to pad the union pockets with dues from mainline carriers.

Very good news for new carriers...plenty of available pilots from which to choose, and lower salaries to boot...such a deal.;)

The situation in Europe, altho slightly different due to lower pilot numbers available, nevertheless will continue the trend to lower/stagnant salaries for quite some time to come.

Welcome to the two class pilot society.

What's next? Will regional pilots have to pay for their recurrency etc. :confused: :mad:

Squawk 7777,

In some companies that I have been made aware of, some already do.

A major low cost carrier in the UK (sorry, Ireland) even charges applicants fifty pounds (US$75) just to apply. Are they short of applicants? No, of course not.

As has been said before, it is just supply and demand.

it would be good to tell this to wannabes. many are still fetching post 11/9 50K (UK) for a JAA ATPL with 250h piston TT.
How are they going to repay their loan with 1800 USD pay as F/O ? (without considering cost of CFI, type rating, time building...)

I hate to add that almost all majors in the US require a four year college degree.

:mad: Lifes a bitch then you die.
Thats life in the current climate.

I was told "life's a bitch and then you get one" :rolleyes:

That doesn't mean that we have to accept cr@p.

Sounds like enduring life rather than living it.

It is a bit like luck then, you have some or you don't. Then again (my view) you can make yours...
If humans had always kept there heads down no progress would have ever been made and yeah, working for free will be the norm.

That's not the case, thanks god because of that we can enjoy the benefits today so let's try to keep it going well past tomorrow.

Some good posts.Indeed the Airline scene is rapidly changing,particularly with success of the low cost carriers.I think things will continue to lean towards the exploitation of pilots as the long time majors will find it tough to compete against the low cost outfits.
Here in Australia,Qantas has realised that they no longer have to treat applicants with any respect.You now have to find your own way to interviews(expensive.especially from Perth),of which there are two,if your lucky,and you are also required to pay AUS$150 for an aptitude test.
I think Qantas look at Virgin blues cost structure with envy,and will do their very best to get there cost structure down.I predict that Qantas Pilots will have to endure some discomfort in the future.
As for flying for free,that is a choice that one makes,everybody will make that choice for their own circumstances.People like I was, would have condemned such actions as a degradation of our profession,but,things change and so do ideals.
I am a 40 year old pilot who worked for a now defunct Australian major,10,000 hours commercial jet of which 5000 are in Command and an unblemished record.I have not been able to get a job anywhere,after sending dozens of applications I have not even had an interview!!.It has been a year since I have flown and now recency(or lack of) starts to come into the equation and I am getting to the stage of looking at anything to keep my career alive.Why I mention all this is not to receive sympathy but to highlight the fact that getting your foot in the door with a major is no guarantee of having made it for life,ask the boys at Pan Am,Americas premier Airline 25 years ago.The real unfortunate reality of the Auz scene is that there are still hundreds of pilots here,just like me!.

Thumbs up: Good luck to you, and to everyone else who earned the ratings with nothing on the horizon yet, or got kicked out the door, or to those who can't afford to restart their careers on minimum wage pay. My sermon up above was too long, but I attempted to describe some key aspects which have taken place in the US.

When the Comair pilots went on their bitter, long strike, in order to force the ALPA pay formula into their contract, which would have been a major precedent in the US regional industry, the entire US airline industry was pressuring Delta (and some key GOP politicians), which owns Comair, NOT to cave in. Just think of the financial and legislative "incentives" which could have been offered to Delta. They probably picked up certain routes from the DOT or might have been given certain favorable rulings by the DOT's admin. judges-find out how some former DOT Admin judges made very favorable rulings for Texas Air Corp/Continental Scablines in the mid-80's, just before these gentlemen left govt. service to work there. The govt always sweetens its rulings for industry/White House favorites, but these decisions are always made in an impartial, objective manner...

My thoughts also to the thousands of spouses and children who face hardships now, possibly interrupting college studies due to lack of money or losing a home, while certain airline leaders must decide which yacht to upgrade to this year. "Dear, maybe a full-length fox fur at Christmas, and a short mink jacket for little Jennifer to wear back to college after winter vacation in Gstaad"? "And Daddy, don't forget-my BMW with its leather seats is already three years old!"

‘Thumbs Up’, you say you’re “…a 40 year old pilot who worked for a now defunct Australian major,10,000 hours commercial jet of which 5000 are in Command and an unblemished record”.

There’d be many who’d disagree with the last part of your statement (which I’ve highlighted). Because you simply couldn’t have that experience with that particular now defunct Australian major without wearing a lifelong tag no man would want attached to his name, (as I suspect you’re discovered these last twelve months). And before someone starts howling about me ‘hijacking the thread’, let me say that the way ‘Thumbs Up’ went about becoming a 10,000 hours commercial jet pilot with 5000 hours in Command is exactly what this thread is all about. It was the moral equivalent of ‘flying for free’ – taking a job as a blackleg in an industrial dispute.

The industry’s in the parlous state it’s in today – for pilots, at least – because people (I can’t call them ‘men’) like ‘Thumbs Up’ looked after themselves at the expense of the common good – the very thing people are complaining about here here.

Idiots work for free
 

Listening to some pilots in the Orval bar recently it would appear that, with some minor differences, their careers went along these lines.
Initially money borrowed to reach CPL and Instructor Licence.
Find PAID instruction job to build up hours/ experience. Have to pay for own medical and start to repay debt.
With more hours/ experience find BETTER paid job with charter company. Conversions paid for by the COMPANY. Pay for own medical and pay off a bit more of the debt.
With more hours, etc. find BETTER paid job with company flying larger aeroplanes (4 engines). Conversions and medical paid for by the COMPANY. Pay off a larger part of the debt.
Hiccup! Company goes broke!
Find job with well-established airline. Conversions and medical paid for by the COMPANY; join the company pension scheme. Work up through the system F/O, Capt., Instructor, etc.
Debt paid off now and more MONEY in the bank.
Are these exceptional cases? Apparently not, there were several of them.
This is the way it could be done, so why not now? The proliferation of 'bonding', paying for conversions, paying to go flying et al. can not be blamed on the companies. After all, they're out to take a mile.
The blame, if any, lies firmly at the doorstep of those who have condoned and let it happen.
You know who that is.;)

I think that's about 99% of us. Thank you The Trappist;)

Working for free.
 

These guys/girls flying for free should be black listed, I personally
wouldnt have them onbord and no one should even consider
taking these so called self respected pilots on,there are plenty of
dedicated professionals around who have gone the hard way
to fullfill their dream of becoming an air line pilot.
I know there are an outfit in guam and several outfits in the
caribian who practise these scams.
Think tvise before joyning these outfits, you might get a question
at your interwiev about where you started your career. :)

Tibesti 3415
Why should they be blacklisted?
At least on their respective CV's the words are generally spelled correctly...:rolleyes:
Makes the FMS work better.;)

Thanks to all for the very thoughful posts. Lots of perspective added to my original posting.

A couple of comments:

To Borough Council who said:

"Well A300dude, If you've been flying 36 years, and this is as bad as you've ever seen it... then you must have had a pretty soft easy going career (and you must be retired from it now to see how the other half live). Have a chat with some "blue team" canuck sometime if you want to earn a real tear. Enjoy retirement man and put your feet up."

I don't feel the slightest bit sorry for any pilot lucky enough to be employed at Air Canada, regardless of how he got there (i.e. "blue team") and regardless of what they think of their seniority. Anyone who is flying there should consider themselves extremely lucky in the current circumstances.

As far as relaxing and putting my feet up after my soft career:

I now consider myself lucky to have a part-time job on a King Air. I am still suporting a wife (disabled) and three children (two school-age) on this earned money plus my retirement savings. Two years ago I was Captain on a wide-body and through no fault of my own (read all of the above posts), find myself in my present circumstances.

to "Thumbs Up" in Auz:

We have a similar situation on the go in Canada with the collapse of Canada 3000, our second-largest airline. According to what I've heard, there are still around 325 ex Canada 3000 pilots who have found no work at all (since last November). You can imagine what this does to wages and working conditions in a small country, when this number of qualified pilots are still out of work. And you can imagine what sort of pressure this puts on their families.

To finish on a much more positive note:

Over the last two years I have developed a group life insurance plan available to Canadian ATPL's and their families. So far, my partner and I are still subsidising the plan, but we have hopes that eventually the plan will be able to support itself and maybe even make a few bucks!

If you would like to check it out, go to www.ppip.ca

Thanks again for all the thoughful and insightful posts!

a300guy

Those companies should be blacklisted! Aren't there labour laws prohibiting free labour in most countries? If you fly as part of the required crew, then you should/must get paid.

Aviation is a truely rocky path to reach the top. Few years ago I struggled with the CAA requirements which were about the change to JAR (no, I didn't panic! :rolleyes: ) and most UK schools I came across were just trying to rip me off. But, there's no better feeling than to be on the way to work in the early morning...

Great post, Ignition Override.

I wholeheartedly agree with your points.

The reason overseas contract jobs pay so low now, is because 7 years ago, when they paid well ($125-75k/yr) qualified pilots were at a premium. Then, they discovered regional/general aviation pilots in the US and elsewhere with no jet experience who would fly for much less ($65-40k/yr) just to get big-jet time in their logbooks.

It has hurt the industry, and decimated the proper pay scales for those pilots who are truly qualified and have the experience. It has hurt the industry, and made it worse for those young, inexperienced pilots who want to break into it.

Nobody can live on $3250/month commuting from the US to TPE (no names).
https://image.jetnet.aa.com/imageser...ure_ribbon.jpg

I would imagine that everyone is (or was) in the same boat. Do any low (or no) paid job to get experience. Eventually one will work up to a job with the majors. Then they will enjoy the fruits of their labour.

So what happens when these highly paid jobs no longer exist, will there be less supply???

Yours curious, Harry.