There are 2 separate issues here. The 'working for free' bit is fairly straight forward - everyone does what it takes to get on the ladder and is genuinely happy to do so at the time. No reasonable person can begrudge that to his fellow pilot. When I started, I willingly grabbed the first job that appeared and am not the slightest apologetic for it. There will, however, always be those who fortune has shone upon and their circumstances have enabled them to get ahead in life without having to work for rock-bottom wages in dreadful companies. They always somehow think they are better than the rest of mankind. AMEX is one such person, and feels he is somehow such a fine fellow that people have always been rushing to pay him hansomely for his services. If only we were all so talented and attractive as he is - life would be so simple!

The second issue is that the real problem lies in many so-called professionals simply not being willing to take a stand on behalf of their fellow pilots. We have a situation at Air2000 in the UK for example at the moment where the management have kicked out a number pilots and simply cut the salaries of others at the bottom of the seniority list. How BALPA ever permitted this I do not know. The bottom line is that 'for evil to succeed it is only necessary for good men to do nothing'. If we gladly accept these situations then we will be trampled on. That is where I would be choosing to fight rather than attacking the new entrants into the industry.

Very well said!

norman
 

couldn`t agree more with norman

Amex... are you on drugs or just capable of verbal Diarrhoea?

Can anyone tell me if this is for real or hopefully a wind-up, taken from the Middle East forum.

Attention: Airline managers, Chief Pilots and HR Departments
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=69167

Mutt.

It strikes me that some of you are being very harsh on the pilots (such as the one asking for a job in the 'Attention: Airline managers, Chief Pilots and HR Departments' posting) who are trying to get a job any way they can in todays market.

If the individual is prepared to pay for his own training and work for a low rate to get experience and hopefully a full time job - then good luck to him, I personally wouldn't do it but I would not criticise anyone who does.

A friend of mine decided that he wanted to change career and be a pilot, so he spent thousands on getting trained, he paid for his own 757 type rating - now he is in the R/H seat of a Big Airways 747-400 and on easy street for life. I say good luck to him as I would not have been prepared to get into the tens of thousands of pounds of debt that he did - but it is what he wanted to do, so he stopped taling about it and got on and did it.

As for the worries that people who are prepared to pay for their own type-ratings and work for nothing will drag down the whole industry - it don't beleive that there are that many people who are willing/able to do this.

That's the thing. Most people can't afford to work for free (or minimum wage) and those that can usually can't for long. It is one thing to be paid poorly for a little while but there comes a point when one must start earning to live. Any company that pays poorly probably finds they have a high turnover rate as most people view these as stopgaps. If the majors stop paying decent wages then yes, I believe there will be a major crewing crisis. Problem is it will take years to develop but if people see that they could make more money waiting tables than as a pilot then they are unlikely to be willing to stump up £50,000 for the priviledge of being unemployed indefinitely looking for that first job and then a lifetime of poor wages and serious job uncertainty.

The industry is famously cyclical. Right now there is downward pressure on wages. This will not last. Question is, how long will it last for?

Lazlo

Jet II
A rotten barrel of fruit can start with only one bad apple.

Dear Norman Stanley Fletcher
I don't recall saying people were rushing to employ me. As a matter of fact I lost my job post September 11 and was unemployed for two month until I secured another job but unlike you said, itdidn't rush my way (a misconception you seem to have).
I got a tip from a fellow ppruner and once the contact established with my future employer, I had 48 hours to move out, sell my bike and car and catch a flight (paid) from London (that is if I wanted the job, you can imagine I wasn't the only one going for it).
I don't pretend I am that valuable I only fly great machines... No, rather I aim at what I can realistically do in today's market ,i.e Flying light turbo prop, single pilot pistons and whatever else but nothing for free (call me a lucky B*****d if you like) and as long it is safe (done the dodgy stuffs, left before it ended in tears-mine-and have no intention to get involved with that type of outfit ever again).
Also you seem to think that I consider myself as some sort of prima dona but as someone who has had his fair share of time dreaming about flying whilst all sorts of jobs (before and after I qualifiied), I can assure you that if I had been better than most, I really would have done a bit better.
No real regret here as I have learnt a lot about many sides of aviation and its industry I wouldn't have had otherwise the chance to discover. During this period I came across a great number of people whom I can call many of them, friends.
As for my flying, I am also a very humble person and have no problem telling you about my mistakes or bad landings because I like to think we can all learn from it (me first).
So you see, because I don't believe in working for free doesn't make me that different from the professional I have no doubt you must be.
We are all free to run our career the way we chose. In fact there isn't a single way to be successful in achieving your lifetime ambition but instead there is as many ways as there are existing pilots.
In many's eyes, pilots are a commodity which, very often, makes us as a group, subject to attacks on our Terms and Conditions. I, as an individual do my bit, not to save your bum but in the long term, to preserve mine hence my rather unflexible stance (at least in your eyes but then again we disagree about the matter so....).
What I fail to understand,is why you feel so stronly about me refusing to work for free. I mean it isn't like if I was a threat to your job or anything ? :confused:

Anyway, i feel I have made my opinion fairly clear so that's it for me. As I said, if you go to one of the bashes, we can always have a friendly chat about it, as whatever you and I think, ain't going to change the way things are going.

Cheers Mr Norman Stanley Fletcher :cool:

From apple
Ironic really. And THAT's how you contribute to the thread ???
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Not related to apple's remarkable, concise and very informative post:D :D :D
I haven't been here long enough so it is a genuine question. What has been the trend of the last 30 years???
;) :cool:

Bye all :D

My 2 penneth worth.

Amex, you sir strike me as an honest individual, who posseses a true sense of his own worth.
NOT a point that can be levelled at just anyone in this industry.
In all walks of life their lurks backstabbers and job stealers....it's up to each to decide if this occupation is better or worse than others.
If i one day share a cockpit with you sir, a pleasant experience i think that would be. Im on the first round at the stopover.
Good luck to you.

And for the record, in my opinion ,anyone who DOES demean themself by working for no pay, not only tarnishes themselves, but the entire cadre of professional aircrew everywhere.
Such money spent, such sweat expended, such hours of study and concentration, such sacrifices made.....and for what??
Enjoy tugging your forelock do we?
As an old Yorkshire friend used to say to me..."you dont have to be right smart to work for nowt"
Thats as applicable in a cockpit as it is down a pit or in a field. Never forget that.;)

Don't work for free!
 

I just felt that it was time to remind all on here that in recent times, airline managers across the world are getting more bang for their buck from professional pilots.

For all those who are trying to 'make it' in this great profession:

Don't give your talents away.

Sell them to the highest bidder.

Make management pay for every delay, every minute longer you spend away from loved ones at the company's behest. They won't turn a profit without you.

We all love to fly, but don't do it for nuthin'.

Wannabes: take note.

Any chance you could move this thread to downunder and godzone??

one practice in aus is employers wanting pilots to pay for the privildge of working or to buy the job of them. Just because some one can afford to pay for the job dosen't mean that they are the right person for the job.

'Will work for free'
 

Noticed a 'pilot seeking work' advert prominently placed in the latest FI; the first line of which says 'Willing to work for free'. I found it a bit depressing. I do empathise with the desperation felt when looking for the first job, particularly if like me you had to wait close to 3 years for even a sniff. However, paying money to advertise the fact that you are so desperate that you are willing to work for free strikes me as a bit mental. What kind of employers are likely to respond to this approach? If I was in the recruiting business I certainly wouldn't hire someone who valued his labour at 0. I don't know why, but I find it a bit creepy and I think it reflects poorly on the industry and the profession.

It's the same thing as with being able to pay for your own typerating. If you are, good for you but dont put it in your CV. Doing this implies that the employer is a cheap piece of work and is in fact an insult. Employers shouldn't employ people because of guilt or the fact that they feel sorry for them, they should employ because they like you and if they don't want to pay for your services, take that at the contract negotiations!

/LnS

So my 732 rating is worthless huh?

I think most fATPL's know the difference between the jurassic and the classic (and the ng..) and a classic rating is different from a ng... (which requires a differences course).. you seem to imply they are the same TR, are you sure YOU know the difference?

If you are prepared to work for nothing, then you are worth nothing !!

Yes it is very sad indeed, after all that hard work and huge financial outlay, it comes to working for free.

I lost my job a few years back due to someone working for free. This person worked freelance, had taken early retirement and wanted to " keep there hand in " makes life very difficult to compete. In fact even more difficult for the new guys entering the company when they are faced with this situation. All where expected to pay up front for type and opc lpc and medicals. TUBBS there where still guys willing to do this.

TUBBS there are many employers who are only to happy to beat a path to the door. Imagine it, a work force operating for FREE, they cant lose can they. Pay for your own type rating now line training, and then what is left ? work for free right ?:confused:

However, if this is what it has come to, then there really isnt much you can do.

MrM

But i wish you all well :)

What is the world coming to, eh? I should first point out that I'm a wannabe, and not a professional pilot like most of you on this forum. Being a professional, you have special highly sought-after skills and should be paid to work, not pay to work. I have never met an accountant who would pay to do someones books, just as I've never met a plumber who wants to pay someone to fix their toilets.

This is a problem mostly confined to Europe, where there are opportunities to fly for airlines with low hours. Do you see people in the US, Canada, Oz, Middle East, Asia (apart from Air Asia), South Africa, etc. paying for type ratings? No. The vast majority of pilots outside of Europe build their hours instructing, in aerial survey, and a whole host of other flying jobs. Almost nobody in Europe wants to do these jobs, and don't even consider them when looking for their first flying job. Few people have the patience to instruct etc. and wait for an opportunity to work for an airline. Instead people pay big money for TRs without any guarantee of a job. Why?! If every low-hour pilot gets a job with FR and then decides to leave when they have the hours, there won't be enough well-paying jobs for even half of them. Maybe airlines should deduct the cost of new aircraft from pilots wages too. There will be a huge shortage of quality instructors in Europe in the future I think. But that's beside the point. Europeans should take note of the rest of the world, perhaps even take a leaf from the Americans book! Nobody in the US can get an airline job without building 1500hrs by instructing or other means. It's seems to be a much fairer system, and there is a much more level playing field for pilots.

Ts & Cs (particularly those for new recruits) are going to be eroded beyond belief if this situation worsens. Can anyone blame airline managers for taking advantage of this situation? Experienced pilots should put more pressure on management to protect Ts & Cs for new pilots. I haven't seen the actual advert yet, but I don't know if I want to. To be completely honest, the sound of it disgusts me. Enough apathy, say NO to paying airlines to work for them.

It's always nice to have a good long rant about something! I'm relaxed again.......rant over :ok: :cool: :)

Working for free, mad!

My favourite anecdote came from the owner of an FTO. He was approached by an instructor who offered to work for free. He threw him out saying; 'Never demean your profession by offering to work for nothing'. He probably used a couple of F words too If I know his character.

That sums it up neatly. Sadly one or two would have accepted the offer.

When you have just been issued with a fresh CPL/MEIR (frozen ATPL), are up to your neck in debt and not in speaking terms with your bank manager, and desperate for that first airline job, one of the most important things you have left is your dignity. To advertise that you are willing to work for free is to do away with even that. Nobody should ever get on their knees to get a flying job - or any job for that matter. Full stop.

In my book, working for free can only be one of three things:

1/ Internship
2/ Charity work
3/ Slavery

Take your pick!

Cheers :cool:

Well said everyone. Very wise words indeed, but this isnt going to change anything, there will always be to many, rushing, wallet in hand to buy a type rating and those willing to work for free.

Perhaps " will work for free " speaks volumes of European pilots.

Maybe next we will see, perhaps " will work for food " ??

MrM

'will work for food'

Wouldn't that be a pay rise ;)

What about the minimum wage...?

[QUOTESpoke with someone a couple of months back,.....]they would take him for summer contract on airbus but could not afford to pay him.[/QUOTE]

Someone is thus a complete idiot. Do you think for one moment that if said company can afford to run a Airbus, they can't afford to pay a pilots salary (which is rather small per month compared to a lease cost)?
Or put it another way. Does this idiot think that if they could't find someone to fly for free that they would ground the aeroplane rather than pay someone to fly it?
The inability of people to see the big picture is mind-boggling :mad: :ugh:

I wouldn't employ anyone who advertised their services "for free" on the grounds that he or she had insufficient grasp of the English language!

Whats always intrigued me about the type rating/pay to fly argument is how people try to draw a line in the sand and say it is so wrong. Yet it is industry accepted that you can drop paras or gliders for free or darn as well near enough to it. You can earn £8 an hour instructing PPLers when the school is charging £140/hr for a clapped out C152 or tow banners for not much more. There are even twin "jobs" where you get no pay doing traffic reports etc.

I am waiting to be enlightened as to the startling difference between these and the aforementioned. It seems to me a case of the have nots being none to pleased that others are jumping ahead of them on the gravy train and not going through the same school of hard knocks that they did. Well I am afraid that is life and there will always be someone with minimum hours who is in the right place at the right time that will get a job ahead of you or who doesn't see a need to live in a caravan in North Wales for a year losing the will to live.

Unfortunately, as a Pilot starting out in this industry, it is all too easy to allow one's love of flying to become entangled with the necessity of earning a wage, thus demeaning the profession.
The rot started a few years ago with individuals, not the airlines paying for type ratings.
This Pilot, naively, has merely taken this cost cutting to a new level.

It is not a way to do business
 

I dont have to read comments from my fellow collegues to know you will get a roasting for your comments. However.............

I can understand that you want a break.

You will just make it harder for yourself in the long run if you take this line of approach. If i can offer some advise.

When most of us start spending and learning to fly aircraft we are not privy to the difficulty in obtaining that first job. Its a sad fact but many never become professional pilots. However persistance DOES pay most I dont know any person that hasnt made it that hasnt stuck it out. It has to consume your life. If you are this desperate this is what you must do.

Pilots spend lot of their time a resources to gain employment. I have seen pilots paying for work it took me six years to become a professional. I blame my maturity at a young age and the fact pilots were paying to work as a pilot.In the end I had to travel 3000km and base myself somewhere no one wanted to be.

Be consistent with you follow ups with employers accept their critisisms that come your way but dont let it deter you. most of all workout your weaknesses if any when seking employment opportunities.

It is as people say you just have to be in the right place at the right time. Once you have the experience it comes easier. If you know people in the industry ask them for some help. It might help if you work as a aircraft washer, a refueller, a baggage handler. I dont know your position. Pilots dont start making money until well into their career until them we are poor broke drive the cheapest car work in the worst conditions so when you do become a Commander of a jet remember what it took to get u their and why you should give away your labour.

I hope this helps you I hope you become one of us the right way.

And then maybe you can offer someone advise or give them a leg up in aviation.

Out of curiosity I have two questions on this matter:

1) "How Long" will this person work "for free", a day, a week, a year, a life time?

2) Will they: paint my house; service my car; collect my dry cleaning; cook my meals; recycle my rubbish; fill in my tax return...or do they only fly for free?

Like I said, just curious, I could do with a new slave, the last one slipped his chains and ran off...

Harry (willing to exploit the gullible and desperate like a good capitalist)

We already pay for selection to pay an FTO mountains of money to then pay for a type rating and some line training...So why not work for free? :ugh:

I wonder how the people who offer to "work for free" today will feel when they are replaced tomorrow by other idiots offering to "pay for work experience."

I do sympathise with people looking for their first job but you are undermining everyone elses position today and your own in the future.

Airlines today are generally run by beancounters - people who dont know one end of an aeroplane from another. We should be standing up to them, not encouraging them.:(

ahmen Mr Bananas,

Unfortunately the bean counters of the world are making the global Avaition world cheaper subsidised by our wages.

Why would you be more employable ?

If one airline is farming out the right hand seat to individuals who will contract to no pay, then it puts the other companies at a commercial disadvantage. In turn they will also do the same.

If you don't think so just look at the situation that exists in most if not all companies that employ low time pilots now. The terms and conditions have gone through the floor for new joiners ( short term and long term) in the last 5 years. Unfortunetaly the surplus of newly qualified professional licence holders has put downward pressure on labour costs at that end of the market and that effects not only new licence holders but also new joiners from the military and other "experienced" sources.

The problem with working for no renumeration is that once you get bored with that concept and begin to feel your new found "experience" has a value, you will find yourself competing with the new wave of others who like you see a personal advantage in working for nothing. Why will a company decide you are worthy of their increased costs, ( low cost remember), when others are equally willing to do the same job for free ?

I have worked for my own employer for over 20 years and in that time seen a steady improvment in terms and conditions. However over the last few years the company has had to compete in this brave new world of the "lo-cost" model. This includes new ( lower and restrictive) salary structures for new pilots (all new pilots!), the abolition of final salary pension schemes ( something not unique to airlines of course), the abolition of permanant health insurance for new joiners, reductions in travel benefits, and the list goes on. In other companies I see the requirements to pay for your training, pay for your uniform, pay for your meals and drinks, pay for your car parking etc. all of these changes reduce the employers cost base, and sets the standard for others to follow or themselves risk operating at a commercial disadvantage.

I can tell you that the view from the top of the tree is still largely as good as it ever was and therein probably lies the attraction. However the rot is visibly spreading from the ground up and I hope I have floated off into retirement before it gets up to the top branches. I have a son who is currently setting out to enter commercial aviation, and it is his future that I worry desperately about. The career he is hoping to embark on is far removed from that he has lived and benefited from for the last 20 years.
Who will pay his sons or daughters costs when the job itself is little more than a vanity exercise for other youngsters ?

I can understand the frustration that drives this sort of attitude and ambition (albeit myopic), but it is high time the standards were adjusted for airline entry. In my opinion the hours requirement is set too low and this serves to dilute the experience base. It is unlikely ( at this point in time ) that the regulator will do anything to change the status quo, although they do have concerns about low experience Captains and First officers flying together. It is more likely the insurance industry (another major cost consideration) will drive the change, eventually and unfortunetaly !

As a former Engineer (Non Airline), I find it an absolute insult to proffesional personnel to have to pay for any form of Training!

It is not just the Airline Industry that has to pay large amounts of money to train their workforce. It is the same in most Industries.....(most industries getting on with it, planning it into their yealry budget!)

For example, in my former life, I was tasked to source training for several of my Engineers to train on a new piece of equipment, that entailed them going to Germany for several weeks, at a cost of well over £30k per man.....This was not even blinked at as the company needed them trained to continue production (ie, Airline can't operate without Pilots!).

In my opinion, and this is just my personal point of view, the Airlines can afford to train new pilots, but they don't need to as long as there are people willing to pay for themselves! And before anyone rattles on about how difficult it is to get that first job, I know!

If we all made a stand against this form of prostitution, Airlines would be forced to again employ people and train them without a cost to the pilot (whom in many cases is allready heavily in debt!).

Its not rocket science, the Airlines have never had it so good! Little wonder BMI etc....are about to strike! Wake up and smell the coffee people, REVOLT!:mad:


---------------
endofeng:ok:

Spot on Endofeng! (nice exhausts by the way!)

I don't care what anyone says about it being worthwhile taking a short term hit for a long term gain. As far as I am concerned, I have no respect for any company who would ask a pilot to work for free or pay for training. I have even less respect for a pilot who is prepared let themselves and the rest of us down so badly. We are professionals! (Or rather, some of us are)

So you now want all of the wannabees to revolt and this will change T&C's then huh? Well I don't think so somehow.

Lets go back a few years....Now when BA and Aer Lingus (amongst others) canned their sponsorship schemes I don't seem to recall all the existing pilots being up in arms and threatening to walk out at the very cheek of management taking away something that many of them had the benefit of. And when airlines started to charge for type ratings did the pilots go out in strike saying come on fairs fair we didn't pay for ours? Then when outfits like Mytravel started taking on guys for the summer who had paid for a type rating and worked for free did the long serving pilots say hey what is going on here this ain't right? The answer as we all know is that BALPA/IALPA and the pilots did nought other than say I am alright jack.

So quite why existing pilots expect some poor wannabee who is in hock to up to £100k to suddenly get on their high horse and refuse an opportunity is beyond me. Maybe if the existing pilot workforce did more to protect their T&C's and stuck together rather than appearing to be so militant but doing nought then all of us would have a much rosier future to look forward to in aviation.

If people are prepared to work for nothing and pay for their own type rating courses there will obviously be a detrimental effect on Ts&Cs. Therefore, I am most certainly on my high horse telling anyone that will listen that they should turn down any such opportunity. What annoys me most is the possibility that the better candidates will lose out to less talented individuals.

What is this industry coming to? I am embarrassed!

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

I will say no more.

There are always 2 sides to every situation and I am not without sympathy for an in debt, newly qualified frozen ATPL pilot who can't get onto the bottom rung of the aviation ladder. Given the choice of either working for free to gain experience or doing the honourable thing but remaining unemployed it is not difficult to see how unscrupulous beancounters seek to take advantage of the newly qualified pilots situation. We need to find a third option.

I am not sure what that third option is but I do feel that, as a pilot group, we need to be a little more pro active. We can't just slate newbies for taking the only option that they feel they have and expect the problem to fix itself. Having reached my mid 40s without ever having been a member of a union I am now of the opinion that it is absolutely essential to protect against the relentless tide of beancounting that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

A few years ago, one of my former employers (UK Charter) made 30 pilots redundant just before christmas. The financial director responsible for the redundancies got a very nice christmas bonus. Next year the airline were short of crews, suffered major roster disruption and missed out on lucrative sub charters. This sort of lunacy has to stop.:ugh:

Like all good capitalists I know my value, if you do not pay me the required amount of beans I do not work for you. I didn't pay for my training, nor did I pay for any ratings, if you want me to fly your planes then you pay me the correct amount of beans.

When I was unemployed I went and got a job that paid the requisite amount of beans, I did not care that it was not flying an aeroplane. The ONLY reason I fly for a living is because it gets me more beans than any other form of work at this time. Should this change I will change job, simple as that.

You can always find someone cheaper but not necessarily better. It is the bean counters choice, you can either be Chelsea or Wycombe Wanderers, who do you think pays its players more beans?

Harry (show me the beans, show me the beans..)

fly a plane for free, or "I pay you to fly your commercial plane with passengers "(eaglejet by exemple)...

is that legal for a commercial flight officer?please give me the name of the companies who "hire" pilots for free, or make them pay.