A while ago, chartered accountants started their careers as 'articled clerks'. This was a bought position, and unpaid, in order to gain the relevant experience to qualify and get the big buck jobs.
But times have changed. And they run the airlines.

You won't be for long. :ugh:

I can see both sides the story here too, it is so wrong for someone to even think this, but look at it from a wannabe's point of view as well, take myself as a casing point, a bit of background 1st without boring you to tears.

Come next April I should have fATPL CPL/MEIR MCC FIC, 250 odd hrs, (just like 500,000 others) 33 years old, just been made redundant from work which pays £50k per year, wife, seriously large mortgage, 2 small children, a nice wedge of redundancy. Ok, me in my head, gees I'm 33, what chances have I got realistically of obtaining a jet job? well at 33 it has to be fairly slim, but that's ok I have my redundancy to fall back on for the time being, hmmm, those CVs havent worked, oh hang on, what's this reply from Airline X? Dear Dean, would you like to come and work for us for nothing for a year, in the meantime you get to fly a nice shiny new 320 for a year which will give you about 700hrs on type, please respond a.s.a.p.
What would you do? I know what I would do, morally wrong? hell yes, opportunity of a life time? hell yes, would I be in a position to say no? hell no, like people have been saying, it's a dog eat dog industry, and a catch22 one at that.
Me after a year of taking the offer, Full ATPL looming, a contract with Airline X, being paid now, well look at that, this time next year I could apply to BA, then another year or 2 I could apply to Virgin, wow my dream of flying 777s could come true soon, thanks Airline X for your offer, without it I'd probably be nowhere
Me after 5 years of not taking it, I am sick to death of instructing now for £x per hr, I knew I should have taken that opportunity a few years ago, goodness knows where I would be now, it certainly wouldn't have been where I am now, curse my luck.
See, it's a vicious circle, maybe you have to blame the people who got the ball rolling some years ago, maybe you have to blame airlines like Astraeus for their 100hrs on type scheme, but which ever way you look at it, it's a culture that isn't going to go away any time soon

Dean

As has been said here before, why do the wannabeeeees feel it is essential to get straight onto the jets??????

In the US, you need at least 1500hrs before any Airline will look at you, so that means either Instruction, Arial photography, or something of that ilk!

There are a few Turbo Prop operators in the UK, and operating one of these Aircraft is not only a whole lot of fun, but bloody good experience for the low houred guy.....4-6 sectors per day, CAT2 approaches in the lovely UK weather, cruise of 20 min instead of 3-4hrs down to Turkey etc....It's all good character building stuff, which in turn frees up seats on the jets....THink of it as an Apprenticeship....hmmmmm now theres' an idea:confused:

Why oh Why doesn't the Indistry have some kind of structure where the low houred guy is pointed in the direction of the smaller operators.....As I think someone already said, start in the lower divisions then work your way up, if you shine, hell you'll progress quickly!!!!

Come on guys again its not rocket science:ugh:


----------------
endofeng:ok:

ps Q400 Pilot, thanks I love em!

I totally agree with you scratch, there is no substitute for experience.
You will miss out on all the fun flying in the lower levels along the way too.:ok:

BR.

Who said I wanted a jet job straight off? I didn't :ugh::ugh: what I said was, if i was OFFERED it above anything else, then I'd have to say yes, I've already I said my chances are slim, so I am more than happy with a nice Q400 f/o slot with a certain Exeter based outfit, problem is on here lately is people tend to read something and interpret it however the hell they want :)
Please re-read my post, although not stated, I am more than happy instructing, glider towing, parachute dropping, then onto the TPs then onto the jets one day

Dean

You can still gain experience flying jets. Then when you get to 1500 hours jet time, you will have better commercial experience than you would have with 1500 hours instructing. Also you have to pay for an instructors rating which is very expensive, and then hardly earning any money anyway.

experience
 

Try flying a 30 year old piston twin in poor wx IFR at night. Thats experience old boy! No computers to pull you out of the #### then!!!

Oh, and your balls will be made of steel after that too lol!

I work for free. But I demand a HUGE lunch allowance.

At least thats what I'm trying to convince Her Majesty's Tax inspectors!:}

Wot xperience?
 

____________________________________________________

No sorry omnidirectional737 there is no comparison between medium/large jet F/O and the reality of flying an old turbo prop, hands on, lousy weather, loads of ADD's and a F/O sitting next to you who can't even spell pilate!

:=

Try flying 65 year old piston twins with Round Engines through same.
Now thats Balls of Steel.:ok:

BR.

Scratching, thanks for this, I assume you mean an operator flying white planes with sky blue engines & tails?
Anyway, back to the casing point, I will take anything that comes, I'd be more than happy with a Q400 command in a few years like I said, to me it's irrelevant whether it's a jet or TP, I just want my first job, I want all the training, money spent & sheer bloody hard work to pay off, still a long way to go yet, though, and if I end up instructing for 2 years so be it, I'm at the age where I will do "whatever it takes", but yes people are right, it is a sad sad state of affairs when people are willing to work for nothing, and as someone said already it probably won't end there, there will come a time when wannabes are going to be paying to fly, it is a vicious circle, are the unions not interested in what is happening? I come from the print industry and we have one of the strongest unions in the country, this sort of activity would never ever be tollerated, but in all honesty have the good times gone? with the ever threat of terrorism & rising fuel costs the bean counters are interested in 1 thing, how they can save money, and the easiest way to do it is to hit pilots T & Cs, training costs etc (mainly for new joiners as has been evident)

Dean

A sad state of affairs indeed, long gone are the days when flight crews were held in high regard. We are just merely Bus/Taxi drivers these days. The Captains authority has almost all but gone. The guys at the sharp end have all the responsibility and will be held to account should the proverbial hit the fan, apart from that everyone else seems to run the operation, from ops, duty mangers, caterers, Uncle Tom Cobbley an all. But when the proverbial hits you cant see all these micro managers for dust.
The reason......? Too many Fast Commands, Too many Fast Trackers, Too many youngsters who's ability to fly an aircraft are in no doubt but whose life experiences are probably not quite up to speed yet and they get railroaded by all the micro Managers into doing it "their way" Chip.. Chip.. Chip.. away at turnaround times, oh you can go without catering this time, you don't need that extra cabin crew member on this sector; No, the WX radar wont be needed if you use the other runway etc ...etc...etc....... the guys who used to stand very firm on all this have mostly retired these days.
But you guys who are going to work for nothing will push the boat out... No Questions asked. If the duty manager asks you to go, and leave 50 odd pax behind you'll do it. If they ask you to go on time without the pax ....you'll do it.

Words Fail me here but some that seem appropriate are and in no particular order'

Spineless.
Easy Cop Out.
LMF.
Lack of self esteem.
Selfish.
Want a quick fix to your social/financial problems.
Impatient.
Selling out your friends and colleagues.
The most important word you should focus on is.......................


APPRENTICESHIP !

Any spare change ?
 

Maybe after conducting a 'free' flight, you could stand at the exit door as the passengers are disembarking with your cap in hand ?

Might at least make something from the flight, even if its all small change :\

In the Company I work for it is common practice nowadays to be given heaps more responsibility or to cover a supervisory position for no extra pay or reward. The Company view it as a personal 'stretch' which "enhances your career development and propects".. I say Bollox.. its exploitation. I would never work for free, unless maybe I was making porn movies ;)

Rubbish.

BOAC was putting people on the 707 from the day they joined over 40 years ago, and their successors have successfully done so since.

What this industry has is an ability to attract unsuitable candidates who are capable neither in the jet nor the Cessna instructional role, whose services are required due to growth in air transport, and are freely available since they have self-selected themselves and paid for their own training, where in the past they might have instead been rejected outright for sponsored training, and better performers now cannot afford it or move to the city, where the economics make sense.

Where the instructional route contains some stars, it also contains some berks who should never be in the air at all.

I expect the berk who placed this advert will never get a job due to an attitude that he/she has expressed, which is inappropriate in airline ops. Not too dissimilar from the berk in the letters page of the Log this month...

Yep, I noticed said Berk as well. Wonder if Balpa charged him the usual ad rate?

I almost hope it was a joke, as they have effectively sunk his career, printing a name as well.

For what it's worth, there are various levels of working for free (or below fair market rates). I include in that category, pilots who have retired with a pension and who just want to "top up" their money. While I can understand the sentiment, they are also depressing the pay of the rest of us who are trying to work towards having a decent retirement - something that is getting more and more difficult.

Ok but you still have to fly jets in bad weather and night on NPA onto short runways in Greece etc. The computers don't help much then.

Try flying the right Jet!;)

working for nothing?

I'm sure there's a word for that....hmm.....let me think........oh!

.........A SLAVE. May be he's into S&M?

Anyway, buying a type rating after being offered a job with long term prospects is an investment, but this is down right stupid and degrading!

However, if you have a ppl and are trying to build up hours genius!

On the contrary - there remains a large shortage of experienced captains, trainers and examiners that these retirees fulfil - if that were not the case, Emirates and Cathay rates would be far below what they are for the same people.

Working for free at a junior level is however totally counterproductive and stems from a complete inability to make rational decisions on the part of people deluded with "love" of a career. An possibly lacking the skills as well.

And by what do you base this flippant comment on? no offence :)

While these guys may be filling a need, in some cases, they are doing so at rates that they would not have accepted had it not been for pensions that they already had. This does have an impact on T&C's. I'm not necessarily criticizing guys who do this, it is a fact of life and I don't think that there is much we can do anyway but it does burn me when a guy shows up with 1, 2 or 3 additional sources of income and proceeds to tell me that he doesn't see a problem with the cost of living here.

Guys,

NO ONE SHOULD WORK FOR FREE!

The bottom line is if there are people out there willing to do this, it is de-valuing our jobs! The young/old inexperienced pilot should do an APPRENTICESHIP!

Training is a whole lot of fun, but it doesn't fully prepare you for the outside world of commercial aviation! Having done a Mechanical Engineering Apprenticeship many years ago before my flying life, it sey me up with the experience´s and knowledge to go out and get a job and be comfortable in that role.....

For a young/old inexperienced pilot to be let loose on a large commercial jet straight out of training, and working for free DOES NOT MAKE SENSE! :=

It is not Rocket Science! All we need is some kind of Apprenticeship structure where as a new Pilot is´serving his time´, and not for FREE!:O

BALPA should and could get involved in this! Any takers from BALPA?.....And please not the usual excuses, they don´t have the time, resources etc...


-----------------
endofeng:ok:

The future!?
 

Hi guys and girls,
Try this on for a thought. I have flown for airlines for over three years. With more than 1600hour JAR 25 and over 20tons, working for a flag carrier- I am told by my employer that I will remain on the T/Ps untill they run out of no-timers that pay their own ratings on our 73s.
Ten new F/O's started September 1st. When they have enough hours, they get upgraded to T/P Commanders- then back to the 73s.
As they need experienced F/Os on the "demanding" T/P operations with the no T/P experienced commanders, we are NOT accepted on the jets, even if we did pay our own ratings. :ugh: As the company needs us as T/P F/Os.
The bond I signed is still running for another two years, and it does not reduce as time goes by.
Needless to say, the jet jocks get much better pay then we do..:yuk:
Wish I had bought a rating- :sad: The diffence in pay, would have paid back the rating already. With no bond!!
F... I am Screwed arn't I??
Or- So says the Char-Char

Blackcoffeenosugar, you're being screwed alright, but not by your own decision to not buy a rating. You're being screwed by our low-time heroes who think buying a TR is the way forward. You are, very regrettably, a case study in how the short-sighted are ruining the very profession they claim to love.
The issue of airlines who prefer to fly heavy metal with zero experience guys in preference to those moving up the ladder is one for another post.
Just athought though, you say you are bonded but on much lower pay than jets. So why not try to move onto jets elsewhere, take the hit on the bond, but earn the bigger bucks?

considering a t/r on a eavy jet costs pretty much the same , It would be better to start with a jet t/r like A340, B767?
...

simjoke,

that's a good one...why not do like in church, with a basket 20 minutes before landing "your donation,copilot bless you".if every pax give 2-3 euro, copilot can make a good living.

ok so we have similar discussions about being paid to work on days off - i try and put it in perspective like this ....
the combined salary of capt and f/o is say , £100,000
we each do 600 hrs per yr
that makes us £160 per hr

about the same as a call out charge for aplumber
cheaper than the cost of a club class meal
we are the cheapest thing on the a/c and it may have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and cost thousands of dollars an hour to operate , but unless you pay the cost of an extra club meal -it doesnt go anywhere:ooh:

Actually no, it makes the Captain about £108 and the F/O about £ 58 :hmm:
However given that the F/O will "work for free", good news, the Captain gets the lot ! :E

My Advert
 

Hi,

Well I did not think that my advert would cause such a heated debate. I thought that I should say a few words in my defence to those who have been voicing their opinion.

No one wants to work for free, however if people are willing to cover expenses allowing me to build hours then why not. I was not looking for a job without pay it was a way of marketing myself in the hope that someone might take notice. And they have, I have had a few offers from people and have recently been offered a PAID job flying turbo props!!!!!!!
The chap who invited me for an interview thought it was very bold to put an add like that in Flight International and was impressed, so he offered me a job.

So I am pleased that I put the add in.

There are too many posts here to comment on but I needed some hours and have had lots of offers to fly with people and I had the offer of some air charter work so there were people who saw through the advert and understood it. I only said "willing to work for free" not will work for free!!! big difference and so what if I got a few hours for nothing.

That is all I have to say on this subject!

K

Would bet the value of a type rating that you change your tune after 10 years flying...

H (no pay, no work)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blackcoffeenosugar (Post 2818682)

Hi guys and girls,

---

Ok. I do not often post on PPrune, but felt a need this time.

Problem 1. YOU HAVE A JOB! Be thankful. I have 2000 hours with FAA and JAA licenses and the debt worthy of a small nation, but still after more than 1 year of looking noone will even take me for interview. I compete with lowtimers buying typeratings as well. So grow up and get on with your job and stop complaining.

Problem 2. YOU feel the company is not promoting you! Well the answer to your problem is simple. Pilots Organize in the company, like a Union, thats the only way you will get a saying in what the company does. Some companies do not hire direct entry captains, due to pressure from internal pilots, so what has to change is the company philosophy and they have to feel pressure from the pilots. DO NOT BLAME THE SELF SPONCERED LOW TIMERS, THEY ONLY DO IT BECAUSE IT MIGTH GIVE THEM A JOB.

All us pilots without jobs and money for typeratings, we depend on the help from our fellow pilots already in a job in the industry. We simply cannot get a chance unless you guys start doing something about the hireing process in your companies. Correct me if im wrong, but to me it seems like noone cares anyway, unless it affects their own opportunities?

So if you think you are "screwed" take a long hard look at my life and the many others in my situation.

Edinburgh, for a little while longer.:cool:

Responsibility
 

Having had my apprenticeship via the military I consider myself fortunate not to have been in the position many aspiring pilots find themselves in today.

My post is really aimed at the pilots already established in a flying job - it is your responsibility to ensure the T and C's for new joiners are not eroded. The company should certainly be stopped from taking on new pilots if they have no intention of paying them.

Our BALPA CC was able to stand up to management and decline a reduction in FATPL / new joiners T and C's and I'm proud that this was done even though we probably suffered a smaller payrise ourselves. Although the Company beancounters don't yet see it - this will be good for the Company. Fewer FOs will treat the Company as a stepping stone to bigger jets / Flag carriers, retention will improve, training will reduce, roster disruption reduce, happier pilots. I'm not suggesting that this will be an overnight phenomenon but I think our CC took a step in the right direction.

We need to take responsibility for changing the mindset of the management from short term cost saving to long term investment and that starts by saying no to exploitation of the new joiners in our respective companies.

Dear Edinburgh
 

Edinburgh - If you want a job here, PM me.. The company loves to hire through recommandations from employees.:ok:
Here is what I want in return:
1. You move here (former Soviet Union) and sign a bond for approx. £11K
and three years. The bond does not reduce. Roster is 5-6days on 1-2 days off. Late check-out every singel time (between 20.00-23.30 LT), and early check in (between 0500-0725 LT) If you want to travel home, you pay the tickets and travel on your days off.
Your roster is by no means stable, even your days off are changed at any time. In your roster you'll have standbys instead of days off, if they can not use you. Standbys are not paid, but if you want them as days off you take from your annual 28 days off (all included), or get unpaid leave (20% of your gross pay deducted per day) You'll fly on average 43 hours per month.

2. You pay for license and medical upkeep + do any and all paperwork and traveling required on your days off.

3. You take home £1K per month and pay your rent here (on average £350 plus expences) pay the bills you need at home and live here of the rest. Inflation rate is 7.5% p.a. Your salary increases by just under 5% per year.

4. You talk to the pilot union (yes we have one, and we are transnational) and explain to the senior captains running the union why their ideas of individual salary negotiations are not so good, and that they should have elections for the posts in the union not just have the president appoint who ever he wants for as long as he wants.

5th but not least you remind me every day that I should be happy that I have a flying job, and that I should grow up- Never mind the no hour new commers that pay a rating and fly the shiny jets. Supplying the company with a cheaper option than a career progression for us.

I converted the money into GBP for you, to make it easier. I spent two years of paid work (not flying) before I landed my first flying job. And I am so happy I staid on my high horse and did not stoop to paying my own rating.:*

Ps. to all others reading this, these were not the T&C's promised in our interviews- We were promised a land of milk and honey and less than a year to command or jet. We knew that there was a union, but not that they were bought. It has all just changed along the way, like our FTLs. And in this country, the big companies don't have to follow the employment contracts - or even the countrys labour law. I can not wait to get out!

Dear Blackcoffeenosugar

Where do I send my CV?

Does not sound any worse than what I did for free as an M1 Visa flight instructor in Florida for 3 years. Well besides we did in average 90-100 hours of flying in a month and worked 6 days sometimes 7 days a week if you count in the paperwork we had to do on our days off, or being called in because someone was sick.

For me it seems like you just have a pretty regular flying job.
If you wanted to upgrade to captain, I believe you might have the hours to make this happen, so why not pay off your bond it might be a good option/investment for you to go and chase new challenges. It might be worth it and pay off in the end. Leave them if you are not content, teach them a lesson.

You cannot be the only F/O in this company with this problem, so maybe its time that you guys have a chat and a get together over a few beers and discuss how to move up within the company, but you have to show solidarity otherwise it will not work. If this is not possible, then do what I mentioned above.

Seriously, can you recommend me to your HR department, I would be more than happy. Actually I believe I am already registered there, that is if you fly the Fokker 50?

Hope you see my points and views as valid as well as I see your side of the story. Please send me a PM or e-mail me if you like.

Edinburgh:cool:

the question would be:

"do you think a pilot working for free works better than a paid pilot?"

Dear Dartagnan.

If your question is directed to me, then my answer is NO!

The point I am making is what I have already explained in my first attention to this tread, that people just want a fair chance to get into the industry, and for some this means paying for a typerating.

But Looker really speaks the words that I wish more professional pilots out there would follow, see the quote below.

May I sugges that we all live up to your screenname and show a bit more "ALL FOR ONE, ONE FOR ALL" mentality. We need you guys to help us get jobs, by changing the companies hireing process. This will also benefit you in the end.

Edinburgh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Looker (Post 2826035)

Having had my apprenticeship via the military I consider myself fortunate not to have been in the position many aspiring pilots find themselves in today.

---

Tubbs,

This is no different from the non-aviation sector. Your 30K+ earners in media and other such areas have often made their start by internships where they practically pay, all after having to pay for a 3-5 year university course.

This isn't new, centuries old in fact: prove yourself to your employer and you will be rewarded with a position. In such a competitive market can you expect anything else? If there is such a demand for positions and so many perfectly capable pilots out there, it's it quite right that wages should lower? To enforce otherwise is wage fixing and protectionism.

If anything, this could increase the calibre of pilot that lands an airline job, cutting out those that aren't really interested or only doing it for the cash.

Maybe the devils advocate, but I'd like to hear the counter-argument.

WTF... Work for free is the better way to make impossibile to others to find a good GA or Airline Job...

I Did once honestly but I'm not gonna do it anymore

best of luck to everyone aniway
Carmine