VLJ aspect
 

Certain people who wish to operate VLJ aircraft in EU on PT operations, were very dismayed when it was pointed out that JAR OPS need two rated crew.


This person then suggested that the right hand seat would be filled by Pilots PAYING for the seat time.

Fly for free, takes on a whole new meaning.

specifics by PM only.


windy

Dictionary definition of the word 'job'

'job 1
n. 1. A regular activity performed in exchange for payment, especially as one's trade, occupation, or profession.'

I want paying for this type of work and see many so called 'jobs' advertised in the UK for pilots which don't in actual fact qualify as the above. If the advert specifies that the cost is £30,000 and you get your type rating and 400 hours flying, then it's not a job. Just a self funded training course which shouldn't be advertised as a job in the first place.

I wonder what the passengers would think if they knew that the FO up front was paying to have all of the responsibility of flying them to their destination, or in some cases doing it for free. They would think that there is something wrong with you.

There comes a time in any career where the buck stops and the company has to cough up for a fair days work, even if you do start on low pay. Crawling and sniffing up the companies ars* , paying them, working for free is not the way forward.
If everyone had morals and guts to refuse to pay for a type rating and the like then companies wouldn't have any choice but to revert back to how it used to be. As this profession continues to be devalued I doubt this is going to happen.

For me, I did my training and don't have a flying job. I've accepted that I may not get one in the current climate either as I am in my thirties. However, I have gone back to my old career for the moment and if I don't get a flying job then I am still satisfied that I got my professional licence.
I'm not going to contribute to the devaluation of a career that will ultimately only put me in more debt.

Knew of a person conducting jump ops for free to get hours. Hell, I even did it to crack the 400 insurance level myself. Screw that now. Besides promoting an air of "if there's one who'll do it there's got to be more", they planted on a hot day with a full load and no insurance cover. Not even 20, dead and nothing to show for it.:(

is your copilot paying to work?
 

how do you feel flying with a copilot who pay to work?

If he does his job and gives a hundred percent thats what matters! Most captains can tell straight away by a persons attitude if indeed that person "wants" or "thinks" he should be in the front right seat.

Hahahahaahhaha
 

BBT dont judge everyone by your own standards. You make it seem like there is some naivety on my part in accepting the terms and conditions of my position with FR.

Let me make it clear that there is none. I fully understand that having paid entirely for my type rating I may still have no job in a days time, a months time or a years time. I shall also answer Pressman and Aloue here too.

If I get canned then it is because I did not work hard enough, was not good enough or did not fit in well enough. Why is this so hard for you to believe. I come from a background where you step up to the plate and take your chances. I am happy to gamble my entire family's savings, everything I have ever worked for, my home and everyone I know for the chance to find out if I am in the right place. If I am not then it is because of the above not someone elses fault.

Will I say the same in a years time if they throw me out on my ear, errm yep because this is life and sh1t happens. It's how you cope with the downs that defines you; everyone is going to be happy when it is all going their way. I've had worse, seen worse and been worse and the industry still does not owe me a living.

You may ask yourself why I am so willing to happily risk it all well that is simple. I think it is worth it and I would ask you why you are not willing to risk everything you have and /or are if you love it so much?

Pressman on Pay
Re pay yes there is an increase in the basic the increase is 300 Euros a month but that is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Having given up a very well paid job to do this I am more than aware that the pay is poor. I never said it wasn't!! I said I know and I don't care because I get to fly 738s. Frankly if they didn't pay me at all I would still be there (and no I can't afford it) Well over £100k in debt and frankly don't care it is only money and I will swop all of it to fly the line happily. I get more in debt every day with FR but I wake up before the alarm clock every morning because I get to go flying.

If there was no contract I would still be there so stop second guessing poeple like me it's called taking a risk, try it :rolleyes:

Vortex you are a brave soul to gamble not only your own wellbeing but also your family's for your must to fly. I really hope your children (I suppose you havesome ) do not have to suffer from your reckless attitude. Your posting makes me wonder what kind of risks you might take in the cockpit?

It’s a dangerous financial game that you are playing vortex with your family’s future. If you can live with it great, some airline interviews require that you disclose what debt you have, as we all know that huge debt costs can have adverse affect on your abilities and mental attitude.
You have to be in it to win, but at what cost? Some costs are too high!
:cool:

It really saddens me to read stuff like this, as it shows a remarkable level of what I can only call stupidity. This is not 'X Factor' or 'Fame Academy', it is a job. A job where those employed to do it have to provide for themselves and their families. A job where you have a responsibility to your fellow professionals not to undermine their standing or value. It is not a hobby. If you want to fly B738s for a hobby, it can be arranged - and you won't erode the terms and conditions of those of us who respect this profession by doing so.

I wish your family luck, VT. They will need it.

Scroggs

Vortex,

You're scaring the hell out of me! Remind me to book Easy next time :eek:

Why do you hate ambition so I sense an ivory tower
 

Not too sure what it is that you all seem so threatened by or saddened by. For those of you on the inside the making of this type of situation is quite simply that there is no meritocracy in the aviation fraternity at present.

Airlines no longer interivew suitable applicants and hire those who pass thier own firms assesments best they hire who ever is at the top of the CV pile or whoever knows someone inside. Or whoever gives the most cash.

So it is airlines who create a situation where those without contacts can only be hired if they want it more and are willing to give up more than others. I did not create the state of the industry but I am certainly not going to miss out on opportunites for the sake of saving face. If the industry wants to test me against my peers and then tell me I am not good enough then fine but seeing as no one really presents opportunities in this fashion, we have what we have instead.

Interviews are harder to come by than rocking horse proverbials what else can you expect. Maybe an aviation SAT or similar some form of national ranking could be established and then as airlines want new crews they just take from the top. Some poeple will enter higher than others some will never make it but at least then it would be in some way fair.

The facts though it isn't fair, it is about being lucky, ambitious and in the right place at the right time and we all know that. We also know that the more ambitious you are the more luck you create for yourself.

Fellow Aviator I suggest you actaully get to know me before you start making comments about my 'reckless personality' as you call it. I do not have to value my ego to value others. I spent enough years as an army officer willing to give my life and that of others who served to ensure the future of you and your families. I never paid that price, I never wanted to to but it did not deter me from carrying out my duty willingly and knowingly. It didn't seem so reckless then. I would actaully call that selfless wouldn't you!!!

I take the responsibility of others to be of the highest importance and always have and always will sacrifice myself, my feelings and anything I have to ensure that others do not have to. I am not there to have fun, be or feel glamarous or for any other reason other than I believe that this is the best thing that I can do with my life, others can benefit from it and I will not cease until it is so. I put my firm, passengers and profession above my own needs and believe in a work work balance as eveyone should try and do what they are best at for a living so that their work is thier life. If having acheived all of this I can then enjoy it and also make a good living from it then that is a bonus.

You and Scroggs may call it stupidity, I call it ambition. A dangerous financial game you call it. Well call me a bluff old traditionalist but it is a mathematically sound game in my eyes. I am well qualified, multi skilled with a diverse work experience. It is not as if I will be working in McDonalds if it all goes wrong. If I persist and am good enough then I will get a suitbaly rewarded position. That will enable me to look after my family whatever I end up doing. If I end up as a bus driver then I will try and be the best bus drive that ever existed, that's just how they made me, forgive me if this is a scary concept but there are some driven people out there who actually want to work hard, be dedicated, earn a living and don't expect to earn huge amounts of money.

Re the children comment, no we do not yet have children, we have decided to wait to see how the career goes as we (condsider our careers more important) we will have children when we can afford them. I am not selfish my wife knew what I wanted and at what cost before she married me and supports me 100%. We would not place children into a financially unsecure existence as they have no choices and we are not gods and therefore should not make life choices for them before they are born. So stop second guessing me if you want to know just like aviation dont guess. Do not mistake ambition for ego or recklessness for selflessness.

£100,000 cannot even buy a flat in the south of england so why is it not worth investing this some in a qualification that you will have for a lifetime? It is 2-3 years salary and when attached to property about the same in equity so in 4-5 years we will be pretty much debt free which with 30years left to work is hardly reckless financially. I see little point in dying with millions of pounds saved, if I wanted to be wealthy there are many more lucrative options that I would have chosen to follow.

I hope that this clarifies your incorrect assumptions. VT

VT, I will not conduct this discussion by PM!

For my views on the consequences of accepting below-par terms and conditions, read this post. The effects I describe there are happening right now, and have been doing for some time. That's not your fault, but you (collectively) should be aware of the consequences of your enthusiasm for flying.

It's in a way unfortunate that this profession is still one of those that has a patina of glamour about it, because it tends to attract many who think with their hearts not with their heads. After a couple of years in the job, you will wonder what you were thinking when you declared you'd do whatever it takes to get into the job: accepting little or no pay, !!!!ty conditions, ever-moving bases and all the other things referred to in this and other threads. With your £100k debt to service, you may well find that you are having to take on other work, and your partner is also working to pay your debt - as well as keep a roof over your heads, and food on the table. The strain will tell. Not yet, maybe, but it will. Eventually, you may find - as many have before you - that your dream isn't held by your family with as much enthusiasm as it is by you. The privations they endure so that you can fly may become just too much to bear, and they may look for a way out. Without your partner's contribution, you may not be able to service that debt (which may by then have increased if you've had trouble paying). Where do you go then? Hold out for a command (which won't pay what it used to) while stalling the bank, or leave flying and try and get a stable job that pays a living wage?

That's where all this could end up for you. It has for many others. Don't sell yourself short; the consequences are really, really not worth it.

Scroggs

"I am more than aware that the pay is poor. I never said it wasn't!! I said I know and I don't care because I get to fly 738s. Frankly if they didn't pay me at all I would still be there (and no I can't afford it)"

Buddy, if that came out of your mouth on my flight deck I'd be sitting on my hands to avoid slapping you. Honest to god, you're exactly the kind of person our industry doesn't need. Then again, you might just be dense, either way stay out.

Your desire to work for free may well come true though if there are enough of you people in the industry. I'll tell you what, the airlines are more than happy to accommodate your request, in fact most of them would in a heartbeat if it wasn't for the pilots fighting for their rights through unions. One thing is for sure, you won't be making any friends with your mindset if you DO get hired one day.

6 months down the line when your company has removed all staff travel, food and water making you pay your own sim-checks, ID cards, medicals and graciously decide to decrease your pay because of fuel costs/decrease in pax loads/whatever other reason they think of you might start to wake up. When they then decide to re-base you to Poland indefinitely as per your contract, change your roster from 5 on 3 off to 5 on 2 off and remove 5 annual leave days you're not going to wake up before the alarm rings, you're going to be awake all night wondering wtf went wrong.

But you say, by then I'll have enough hours to move on. Sure you will, but by accepting the conditions you did you gave your company the edge. Other companies soon follow suite to remain competitive. So when you start looking around for another job, you find that the conditions are crap elsewhere too. Right now times are pretty good, and changing company is an option for a lot of guys and still we have this bullying management in plenty of places. How do you think they'll treat a newbie guy who just prostituted himself to get hired in the first place when times are bad and no jobs can be found.

Think about that for a while why don't you.

VT, with regard to the statements where you were willing to gamble your own and most importantly your family's savings struck me as reckless. You made it very clear your are willing to take extraordinary risks to pursue you career. This is pure coin flipping which will most likely end badly, see the definition for Gambler's Ruin. Don't mix up gambling and ambition they couldn't be further apart.

Quote by Vortex ThingYou and Scroggs may call it stupidity, I call it ambition. A dangerous financial game you call it. Well call me a bluff old traditionalist but it is a mathematically sound game in my eyes. I am well qualified, multi skilled with a diverse work experience. It is not as if I will be working in McDonalds if it all goes wrong. If I persist and am good enough then I will get a suitbaly rewarded position. That will enable me to look after my family whatever I end up doing. If I end up as a bus driver then I will try and be the best bus drive that ever existed, that's just how they made me, forgive me if this is a scary concept but there are some driven people out there who actually want to work hard, be dedicated, earn a living and don't expect to earn huge amounts of money.


Having recently been for a ryanair selection recently and not made it I am begining to think as we say in Africa that every dissappointment is a blessing in disguise. I spoke with two of my friends with whom I went to school after the selection and I was shocked they both said the same thing that I should concider it a lucky escape. In both cases they both have friends whom have recently been employed by them and have recieved first hand accounts of how things went.


The enthusiasm they had for flying since they were kids almost evaporated within a month of flying brand new 738's for ryanair. One was sent off to a base he didn't want becauce that was the only place available. Stanstead now has about 500 pilots for 40 planes. However I did gain the experience of interview and sim check also talking tio other prospective pilots from all over the world on that day.


Scroggs After a couple of years in the job, you will wonder what you were thinking when you declared you'd do whatever it takes to get into the job: accepting little or no pay, !!!!ty conditions, ever-moving bases and all the other things referred to in this and other threads. With your £100k debt to service, you may well find that you are having to take on other work, and your partner is also working to pay your debt - as well as keep a roof over your heads, and food on the table. The strain will tell. Not yet, maybe, but it will.


In both cases I refered to they both regreted it in less than two months of line training wondering what they've got themselves into. One was even bold enough to admit that he wasn't warned well enough which is odd concidering the availability of pprune and other sources.


I am still trying to figure out how ryanair is profiting from this sstr schemes short of the companies in question CAE and SAS paying them a commission for every candidate that forks out £19k for type ratings. But then we are in a capitalist society in which terms and conditions are dfetermined by market forces rather than what is right or common sense. To those who want to go to ryanair good luck but go in with your eyes wide open and remember if I had been successful myself I will be part of the problem contributing to worsening conditions for future pilots. The question we have to ask ourselves is that do I want my dream so bad that I am willing to mess things up for those coming behind.

High horses and you...
 

Buddy, if that came out of your mouth on my flight deck I'd be sitting on my hands to avoid slapping you. Honest to god, you're exactly the kind of person our industry doesn't need. Then again, you might just be dense, either way stay out.

Your desire to work for free may well come true though if there are enough of you people in the industry. I'll tell you what, the airlines are more than happy to accommodate your request, in fact most of them would in a heartbeat if it wasn't for the pilots fighting for their rights through unions. One thing is for sure, you won't be making any friends with your mindset if you DO get hired one day.

6 months down the line when your company has removed all staff travel, food and water making you pay your own sim-checks, ID cards, medicals and graciously decide to decrease your pay because of fuel costs/decrease in pax loads/whatever other reason they think of you might start to wake up. When they then decide to re-base you to Poland indefinitely as per your contract, change your roster from 5 on 3 off to 5 on 2 off and remove 5 annual leave days you're not going to wake up before the alarm rings, you're going to be awake all night wondering wtf went wrong.

Well BUDDY if you were on my flight deck I'd be wanting to slap you right back as you have no right more than me to be there. You are exactly the sort of person who ensures that people find it hard to get in this indsutry. I learnt to fly before I could drive and have dedicated my life to being in aviation, my choice. Who are you to call me dense because I don't make you comfortable by my views. Get over yourself.

You are so worried about protecting your future that you forgot where you came from. I'm ever so sorry if it erodes your terms and condtions of life but am not so sure that have a god given right to good Ts&Cs any more than I do. I think it is worth it, I have earnt that right just as much as every pilot in this forum. We all have the right to choose. I am not some silly school boy following a dream. I have fought and thought long and hard about what I am doing and why, there is no naivety on this end of the pace stick.

I understand that the industry is changing, I understand that I am also neither part of the problem or the solution. If you want things to change tell YOUR management do not take it out on me for wanting success at a price higher than YOU may be prepared to pay. It is called a free market.

Times are changing, maybe for the better, maybe for the worse but they are changing and if you can not deal with it then do not blame me. I have no desire to work for free but if that is what it takes, I simply agree that I think it is worth it. You do not have to agree but you have no right whatsoever to berate me for not helping look after YOUR future, that is your job.

You don't complain that a nice house or car costs too much. You choose the balance that suits you and make the eternal compromise between value for money and desire. Look up Porter's five forces on google if you need help with this.

Re Ts&Cs unless you have not noticed which airline I DO work for. I already pay for my medical, food & water, ID cards and staff travel. C'est la vie. I still think it is worth it.

If as Scroggs suggests COULD happen my family decide that my passion for
flying is not worth as much to them as it is for me then that is unfortunate becuase I went to great lenghts to choose my partner well and she knows how much I want this and was under no illusoin that I would never be happy anywhere except in aviation that is my right and her choice. She seems to think that it is better than me being in Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan or Iraq for 6 months of every year (when she didn't know if I was coming home. Many of us didn't) If i get sentto Poland or Timbuktu, that's life, I have been to wrose places and would again. Seperation will take it's toll I know read the last sentance but I'm probably going to come back alive when I am home nowadays.

I have the right to be passionate, I have the right to acheive my goals and I have paid my debt to a society with people like you in who think that you have the right to deny me my rights.

Re bullying management again understand that in a capitalist society market forces dictate how a market work. We chose our system, we voted in our government and we can vote with our feet any time we like. The thing that you are actually scared of is the terms and conditions changing to a point that makes the industry no longer viable for YOU. In effect you are saying that I should not be quite so vocal or quite so passionate as it may affect YOUR pension. You would in effect sacrifice my desires to sate your own. Well now, I would be dense if I would actually let that happen. Why don't you thin about that for a while.

If the changing face of the industry bothers you so much get of that high horse you rode in on and change it with the people who control everything. The customers and the market. (I refer you back to Porter's 5 forces) Make them understand that we are worth loads more of their hard earned money as we are more important than them, or just accept that we will gegt paid whatever the industry can sustain and it that is on the decline then accept it or change it rather than calling me names in a feeble attempt at defending you own insecurities about your future in the pretense of protecting the industry.

If you genuinely want the industry protecting then it is nonsensical that you would not want the hardest working and most dedicated poeple available to be part of that, people who will give thier all and who will maximise safety, and revenue (in that order) for said firm as opposed to those who would rather see a fat pension because they cannot keep up with the times. If you want security I point you in the direction of a property or other investment portfolio.

I suggest that you direct your energy to informing the customer and management of the problems. Not berating me for wanting what you already have, as if you have some right, more than me to so have it!!:=

Well Vector Thing I have read that comment and I have read some of the other things you have said here and I think you have made my point very well, all on your own. You are certainly an innocent abroad in respect of some matters (in my eyes, of course).

You say you sense an "Ivory Tower". That is your interpretation. But perhaps your interpretation is just a misreading of what is being said to you. You prize certain attributes in spades, even perhaps too excess for the career you have chosen.

When you find yourself in an airline that thoroughly abuses you the question will, eventually, come down to whether or not you will see a solution in standing shoulder to shoulder with your colleagues to improve your situation, or in ploughing your own furrow. Your decision. I will leave it at that.

***************

The authentic voice of Ryanair is to be found in the post above by the Ryanair apologist Inveritas who puts a mild exterior on the "realities" of those who find the promises made at interview, etc. are broken when it suits Ryanair. He says, fair enough, "this is not a branch of Thomas Cook". But this is hardly what is at issue, which is that there are few Ryanair pilots with any period of service who do not feel that a Ryanair promise - even in writing - is worse than useless.

***************

I have read the link provided in the second line of the post by Scroggs yesterday at 17:12. In my opinion this is a stellar post and should be read by all aspiring pilots and those already employed in this increasingly unpleasant working environment. It is a concise explanation of the issues and greatly to be welcomed for that very fact.

Vortex Thing, you were going fine right up to the point where you said:Working for free is never justifiable. I hope that one day you will come to see that. Had you had military people working alongside you in Iraq, Afgahanistan etc. who gaily declared, 'This is such fun, I'd even pay HMG for the job', you'd have rightly dismissed them as crazy. Well, now here you are declaring you'd work for free and you want to be understood by those you may be working with? Get real!

Listen and understand this: you have no right to a flying job. You have certainly have no right to undermine the Ts & Cs that I and my colleagues have worked hard to attain and protect. You will eventually want my job (or that of people like me); you will need to learn a thing or two about loyalty to those you work with as opposed to those you work for before you will find yourself acceptable within this field. I'm surprised that your military time hasn't taught you that.

You no longer work in an environment where your superiors have your best interests at heart. You now have to fight for everything you get. Rolling over and presenting your arse for a shafting may turn you on, but it screws everyone else as well.

Scroggs

You really don't get it do you. It is SUPPOSED to be hard to get into this industry. It's supposed to take skill and knowledge, not the ability to fork out money, pull your pants down and bend over. If you don't see an issue with your statement that you would consider it worth it to work for free just to fly jets then you are beyond stupid.

I think the problem lies above not below....
 

Gnirren again you missed the point.

I have always studied hard and decided young to be a pilot aged 8. Aged 12, I choose my O level, A level and degree subjects to maximise the chances of that happening knowing that I planned a military flying career before a civilian one. At 16 I was awarded an RAF flying scholarship at 18 I joined the university air squadron. I then went to Sandhurst and spent 8 years as an Army officer waiting 3 years before being allowed to even apply for the army pilots course and then eventually left the army some 4 years ago.

I finished off my CPL/IR and did an instructors rating. I worked for £8k a year in my first instructional job driving 165 miles to work as it was the only instructing job I could find I got paid £180 for my first months work. It cost me almost £800 a month to get to work but there were no other jobs. I then found another school 80 miles away rising to the dizzy heights of £11k a year and then my wife and I decided to relocate closer to London as there was more work there. I eventually got a job 20 miles away this time paying £20ph in the air and there managed to get a good amount of hours and experience on PPL and CPL courses.

After a few years of instructing I could no longer meet my commitments financially and even though willing to work at any type of aviation job needed to earn a living wage. All the time I had diligently applied monthly to firms across the world happy to relocate to any country anywhere in the world to get my break, I tried firms in Africa, Asia, Canada, etc but never got an interview. I applied for ops jobs and dispatch jobs before begrudginly moving away from aviation because I found a role that paid £60k for my commercial knowledge working an 80hr week to look after me and mine.

I retrained again (costing me 5k more in training for my non aviation role) and carried on waiting for the day that maybe someone might invite me to interview I have earnt my right to have an interview and nobody of the 293 outstanding applications that I have in a box would give me one.

So you tell me what the options are when you are 35? I have no desire to make the industry worse, I have no desire to destroy anything that you have done but I belive that I have the SAME not lesser rights than you to be in a cockpit. You make it seem like I have used money to take a shortcut rather than getting a real pilots job, you find me one who will even give me the chance by interviewing me and then things would be different.

I did not decide to go 738 or nothing. I have applied to all the locals and TPs. Flybe have never offered me an interview, nor BACON, nor Loganair, nor Eastern, etc, this is not for lack of phonecalls, doorstepping, cajoling, etc attempts they just never offer most do not even answer. If I could get an instructing job at a local commercial school then I would have taken it but the hours make no difference when I and you see 200hr guys getting interviews and me not.

You say skill and ability should be the deciders, well you are right if you want to test me out against any applicant can you tell me how 200hr guys get an interview with Flybe and I don't based on a CV?

Is it due to my lack of skill how would you or they ever know if I cannot get an interview. Ryanair were the 1st airline to offer me an interview ever since 2003 when I left the army was I supposed to say sorry no can't take it it may erode Scroggs or BBTs future. I think not!

You keep making it sound like I do not understand the consequences of where my and others actions can lead the industry, sorry again fundamentally wrong. I do understand, I, as is my right, do not like how the industry treats me but am not stupid enough to not take any opportunity presented to me as no one else will even interview me.

If you would not in my position then good for you but you are not me and though you think that I am somebody who has bought their way in through lack of skill I would suggest that I am a reasonably able pilot who has come through arguably one of the most selective and demanding backgrounds and training courses in aviation and challenge you to prove that I do not deserve to be in the RHS somewhere.

I would genuinely have preferred more instructional time, more multi time and a TP job but if Eastern, Logan, Flybe et al will not even interview me and even if I was successful I need £45k a year just to make the mortgage and meet my debt. My choices were limited to FR or back to the office watching planes out of the window and making other people happy by making them lots of money. You may not believe that I deserve to be there but if I would argue that my skill and knowledge are as good as any FO 2000hrs or less out there who is NOT jet or TP rated. I have not jumped the queue I have taken the ONLY opportunity available and would do so again every day for the rest of my life.

If that means that in 10 yrs time we get paid less than that's life but I am not your airlines HR Director or your board of directors now am I. I'm just another qualified, keen aviation lover and professional pilot who wants to fly ANYTHING for a living.

Trust me getting the PPL onto first solo when they are 30hrs on and struggling is more rewarding than acheiving a 25 min turnaround but the PPL guy isn't going to pay my mortgage and nor are you!

So Gnirren stop making it seem like it is about the jets I don't care about the jets I just want to get a job flying that allows me some hope of paying the debt of that I have accrued qualifiying myself so to do and if flying for free, be it in instruction, para dropping or as an astronaut gets me more experience then I will do it as no one out there except me cares about me and until you are willing to go on strike and make your airlines recruit fairly by skill and knowledge as YOU suggest then I suggest that you step down from what is an ivory tower (it must be if you belive that you can query my skill and ability and call me beyond stupid! without knowing nothing of my ability, never having met me and never having even seen my CV) and take a look at who is looking after me: you Fellow Aviator, Scroggs and Gnirren are not exactly fighting your HR directors to make sure that I get an interview or even a fair crack of the whip now are you so why do you think that I should protect your Ts&Cs I ask you why YOU have a greater right than me to be in any cockpit?

Vortex, I admire your passion and enthusiasm for Aviation, along with many other people but I would strongly advise, that you do not offer your services for free under any circumstances.

When you do find your first job in Commercial Aviation, I hope (if they will allow you to) you stand 'shoulder to shoulder' with your work colleagues through 'thick and thin'. Unions fight for workers rights, in many professions throughout the world to improve pay, conditions, contracts etc etc.

If you are offering your services for free, then you are going to be upsetting a lot of experienced, seasoned, wannabee aviation professionals...........Click on the link below.....

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/fact...3ytp5ufyn48ggp

Have a think about it, please :ok:

VT, I seriously think you should consider giving up your aim of flying for a living and turn your enthusiasm into a hobby. Why? Because, with your attitude, you will probably never earn enough to call it a job, and would bugger up the livelihoods of those a little less starry-eyed about their living.

Go and become something else; a doctor, lawyer, estate agent, specialist security professional, or whatever. Firstly, you might earn enough to fly for fun - which, I suspect, would see you suffer fewer disillusionments than flying airliners and would give you greater satisfaction. Secondly, I'd rather you took your employer-friendly (some would say suicidal) tactics to another industry!

Scroggs

I think we are starting to see why VT never gets an interview.

I can sympathize a bit here I have over 3800hrs and 1100 turboprop time I have had a 3 year break from flying due to family reasons etc, I thought I might stand a good chance of getting a job.

I have sent my CV off and emailed and called every airline from here to the moon and nothing not even a interview or a maybe in the near future.

I always said when I was flying and getting paid for it that I would never buy a type rating and work for free, So would I now yes damm right if it meant I could have a job at the end of it.

Things have changed

I could, if I wanted, go through a certain LoCo selection process along with hundreds of other low time wanabees. I haven't applied, but have a friend in the right place who has offered their assistance on many occasions. However, the figures just do not add up for me and I have refused the very kind offer. I just cannot / will not work for free.

This isn't a decision I have taken lightly, as I approach my second IR renewal date, being the wrong side of 35, and having only had one interview in the two years post qualification period. Yes I do want to do this for a living, and I have done all the CV sending, phone calls, networking, etc. Most of the people I trained with now have jobs, and yes I do feel like I am being left behind at times. I can understand why many feel that to "work for free" is the last throw of the dice, but it is a step too far for me, and if it a choice of that or never flying for a living, then so be it, a desk based job it will have to be. Don't underestimate my enthusiasm, it is as strong as anyone else's, but I want a job not a hobby. I will bide my time, and hope a second interview will pop up one day soon.

I second that.

NH

Oh Dear
 

I have to say that this post does not make nice reading!!

I have wanted to be a pilot for many years now but like many people I opted to take a safe route to start with. This basically meant getting a degree in aerospace. I then worked for a gas turbine company to pay off my student debts and get myself on the PPL ladder. This has taken many years and now I am in a position to 'go for it' - be it sponsored (whatever that means nowadays) or self funded. However, I have made the hardest decision of all - to give up my dream. Why? Well I have matured now and certain things have become more important to me. I won't work for free, and I won't accept a sponsorship deal that leaves me with 0 every month after I have paid back by loans and accomadation & food etc. Thats no kind of life! I also now have a partner to think about, and while she will support me in everything I want to do, I can't and won't ask her to put our life (not just financial) in jepody just to achieve my dream. Its a partnetship and thus you have to take into consideration their dreams and asperations as well.
I also have a traditonal view that getting into this industry should be about your personal abilities and not the amount of risk you are willing to take financially. My view is that the state the industry is in today is because of the amount of young people (well maybe not just the young) willing to take any T&C's and any fincancial risk. This maybe in part because of their age and maturity level. When I was 18 I certainly would have gone for the type of sponsorship that is offered today. At that age you aren't programmed to think of the bigger picture such as how to I pay it back, how do I afford to eat etc.
I know the people of this forum want to realise their dream but please think about the cost - both personal and monetary. Also think about the effect that accepting certain T&C's or even working for free, will have in the future - traditional sponsorships have died out and the ones that exist now are much like self funded anyway. If people continue to accept this type of entry into the industry then companys will continue to push the boundaries - who knows where it will end up. If they can get something for nothing then they will.

So what will I do now - well I am having a career change from being an engineer (a desk one!!) and am training to be an electrician. I will fly for fun in my spare time. Its the hardest decison I ever made but its the right one for me. While it wont allow to to afford ferrari's etc it will be a job which I will wake up and think "I can't wait to go to work' and it will enable me and my partner to live in comfort.

Anyway thats just my 2p's worth. (also please excuse my spelling - its not good today!)

cheers

Stu

I’ve not yet begun my flying training, but in my position of not yet forking out the £50-100K, I find it shocking that some folk would offer their services for free. All I can imagine is that it’s a pledge made in desperation.

As much as I want to become a commercial pilot, the thought of working (it still is a form of employment isn’t it?) for free is something I’d never entertain. Maybe I’m looking at it from the wrong perspective. My opinion, as unvalued as it probably will be, is that to pay for ones own flying training for the aim of gaining employment as a professional pilot is classed an investment (and a huge one at that), with the hope of a return i.e. employment. To work for free is surely pursuing one of the most expensive hobbies known to man.

And this may sound a little big headed and self absorbed, but I value myself a little too much to work for free. Sure I know newly qualified pilots don’t earn a great deal, but I’d at least like to earn enough to pay the bills, put a roof over my head and food on the table.
Surely these people offering their services for free can’t be doing the industry, particularly the terms and conditions, any good. But that’s just my view, I don’t know all the facts as I don’t currently work in the industry. I don’t know how desperate some of these people are to make such a gesture. I pondered on the thought of putting myself in an employers position. Someone offering their services to me for free wouldn’t give me a great impression – but that’s me.

Cheers,
eP.

Edit: Just read the above post by Stu. I just want to wish you all the best in your new career. It's a brave decision you've made there mate, I hope everything works out.

Stu,
I agree but it is the risk thing that gets me. Not that I've had any success, but the concept of a virtually fatalistic and blind acceptance of what amounts to massive and potentially debilitating financial risk and debt strikes me as the antithesis to the concept of planning minima diversions, points of no return, minimum fuel and the other veritable myriad of risk management activities that are core to a pilot's life. Finding one's self in the financial equivalent of coffin corner surely doesn't really mark one out as possessing the appropriate skills. Maybe I'm just naive.

Perhaps the ultimate irony is that some of the most suitable potential pilots are those who have walked away from this industry's requirements shaking their heads in disbelief.

There are some interesting - and somewhat humbling - counterpoints to Vortex Thing's point of view here. Thank you, guys, you have done a great deal to restore my faith in common sense!

As you say, your training is a very expensive investment, from which you must achieve a decent rate of return. Flying for free abandons that investment, as well as ensuring that the remuneration you receive later in your career will be less than those currently employed. In other words, it's your own patch you're !!!!ting on.

Don't do it!

scroggs

it's worrying that people are prepared to take such financial risks with borrowed money to get a start in this industry, and does beg the question as to what type of people are coming into this industry?

i was always told that airlines don't employ first officers, they employ future captains to sit in the right hand seat for a while.

with certain airlines this does not seem to be the case and it appears that the right hand seats of these airlines are being filled with irresponsible risk takers.

i hope that these guys learn a thing or two about responsibility during their type rating and line training.

i wonder if this will have any long term ramifications on the safety of these airlines with this type of person up the front?

StraightLevel

uve ever heard about things called DREAMS?
whats this life if u dont try?

Interesting thread. I'm doing an ATPL but am able to do so with mimimal risk to my standard living (yes, I am very lucky I know) but I would like to make the following points if I may be so bold, as I am worried about how this thread might read to other wannabees who will be taking on massive financial risk

1. Some experienced airline pilots who speak on this forum seem to find ambition/dreams/starry eyes disturbing. Not exactly the spirit is it which got man to the moon is it.....hmmm? naive maybe, but humans need a driving force.
2. While I think people should be informed of the degree of risk they are taking, and its potential consequence to famly life, I suspect some shoud try harder to differentiate between what maybe their own personal negative experience and unbiased sound object advice which is lilkely to relevant to others.
3. If being a professional pilot really isn't "worth it"...lets hear exactly why not in more detail pls?!.....
4. I find it hard to believe employers in the airline industry are really that bad. They are employers like any other in industry, and are goverened by the same laws as the bank I am working for as I write. Yes, you are a resource - you need to realise that, but employers generally do not go out of their way to shaft people at their first opportunity. If I am wrong in the case of aviation ( I accept some locos may be borderline at best here), then pls enlighten me/us; but I sense employee paranoia here to be honest.
5. All this talk about not being able to feed the kids, put a roof over your head etc etc if it goes pear shaped...has go to be a complete exaggeration. C'mon this is 2007, no-one is going to starve if their dad fails to get a flying job surely?!!


There said my bit! comments welcome!

You've heard of these things called Nightmares ? They are what happens when you can no longer pay the bills ! :uhoh:

narh. My latest nightmare (sunday night) was about a nuclear holocaust in graphic detail. I actually woke up and put on the radio to make sure it wasnt a dream and I was still alive - and my eyes felt like they were hurting after witnessing the detonation flash...and I was in a miles away from my wife and kids. That is a nightmare dude...

Sure "dude", but the difference is that sort of nightmare goes away when you wake up.

True, good point! But after waking up after my nightmare, life with unpaid bills surely wouldn't seem too bad..

As long as you regard unpaid bills as an acceptable price for being employed as an airline pilot. I don't.

I have nothing against people's dreams, but, as I have said before, this is not 'X Factor'. It is a serious business, and one in which wannabes should reasonably be able to expect to get a return for their £100k (for some) investment in their future. Working for nothing, or for sub-standard returns, wil not achieve that - and it has serious ramifications for your future in the industry.

As for employers' attitudes, pilots are a necessity - and an expensive one. Anything an airline can do legally - and sometimes illegally - to reduce the costs involved with employing pilots will be entertained. One of the things airlines have to help them is that, like fame, airline flying is very attractive to the young (and maybe not so young) and impressionable, and therefore they can offer stupid terms and still get their hands ripped off by wannabes who have not yet fully appreciated what having a £100k debt really means, or what consequences their acceptance of such terms has for their own futures.

Pilots within unionised airlines can do something to slow the rot, but it's very difficult when major-league employers refuse to accept or recognise unions, and rely on those impressionable innocents to effectively pay to fill their pilots seats simply because, 'I just wanna fly, dude'.

As I've said before, it's not my pay and future you're destroying - it's your own.

Scroggs

Fully agree with Scroggs here.

If the "working for free" trend comes into play, then imagine what will happen in a few years...

I would compare this with the recent idea of paying for your type rating. One airline started it off, wannabes did not refuse, and of course the other airlines liked this original idea.

Becoming a pilot is not a birthright. It is a job like any other job i.e. you work to get paid and make a living. Come on guys.

Without doubt, what Scroggs says is true and the airlines play on this. However it is not the wannabes with debts that I really worry about, as you would hope that anyone entering this profession is sensible enough to work out repayment plans and the ramifications of having a bank or a finance company breathing down your neck? Bare in mind, I say HOPE!!
It is the people that have access to large sums of capital that does not have to be paid back. There are a lot of these people out there, and while I have nothing personally against them, you would be fool for disregarding the fact that they have the opportunity to accept lower terms and conditions in order to jump into the right hand seat. I accept any backlash that this may bring, however I stand by it as a matter of fact!

Scroggs: Yes, I see the point there. Not unique to aviation though of course.

My current work faces a degree of competition from "offshore" companies in India/Far East, where they can employ the same skill for a fraction of the cost. But, in general, it doesnt happen; largely because they need the experience factor..i.e we make sure we offer a higher quality service to the lo-cost alternative (and ultimately turns out better value).

So, isn't this therefore also about, at one level, the airline's belief (rightly or wrongly) that the job really doesnt need experienced staff anymore - and that experience no longer brings anything relevant to the job? Is this a valid observation? Do the airlines not believe a more experienced pilot can perform the job "better" i.e more efficiently, than an inexperienced pilot? Surely the pilot's decision making on the day can bring a positive contribution to the profitability of the flight (after safety obviously), and by hiring and paying more for, experienced pilots they are actually saving money?? Either they are stupid and/or very short-sighted or the days of skilled flying really are over and its the pilots who are simply the last to admit it??

Comments on a postcard pls. I hope its the former of the two propositions!