Got the news through about the revised sector pay. An extra 50p for medium sectors, for which only one flight qualifies.
It still sucks and I still feel very let down. An explanation about how the figures were calculated doesn't help me feel better.
I'm in BALPA and I'll stay there. Having a strong voice is good, but I for one don't feel I'd resort to industrial action or somesuch, so why get unionised in order to show mutual support?
On the whole, the job and company is enjoyable, which helps me overlook a lot of the things that are bad or could be better. All companies are the same, good and bad, and you just have to sort out what percentage mix it is for you as an individual.
Personally, the company still scores in the positive for me - there are many great things about Jet2 - but this sector pay issue has definitely decreased my margin of happy feelings.
The initial sector pay felt like a shafting and the revision isn't any better just cos they picked some of the splinters out of the bat.

G :bored:

Gulpers, listen mate, none of us really want resort to industrial action but if there is some form of recognised organised representation it must be the way to go. I can see what you are saying but if we let this one go then next time management will think we are all going to bend over and take it when the next shafting is due .... believe me, there will be another one after this one, it's probably lined up right now, then another following that. Look at what the boys at EZ have just done with the help of representation.

Do we want to be paid on a par with others in the industry? Yes. Have you seen that other thread about lowest paid pilots? The first response suggested Jet2 straight away.

Never mind the splinters.... go and put a load of nails in your bat and crack the :mad: right back! :E

LCM

Unfortunately you still see the naivety of the Jet2 pilots showing through in this thread. Even after the latest easyJet negotiations where the company has substantially revised their pay offer because they had a very high Balpa membership and the support of the Balpa negotiators, we see inexperienced individuals in Jet2 who believe that by negotiating their pay, terms and conditions as a group with the cabin crew, and suggesting that the TGWU can represent the pilots better than Balpa heading down the slippery path of getting well and truly shafted by the Jet2 management.

Once again, just because one individual harps on about one instance where Balpa had to make a Solomons choice over whether to back one position or another, we see a blanket disapproval and Lemming like advice being given to the other naive, inexperienced or just plain ignorant pilots to join the TGWU and to negotiate collectively with the cabin crew. I shake my head in disbelief as no doubt those of us who are lucky enough to work for carriers that have strong Balpa representation and have learnt the hard way how it actually works, watch these innocents heading, like lambs, straight to the slaughter.

It really is time that you Jet2 pilots got your acts together and looked at the other airlines around you where there is strong Balpa membership and the terms and conditions they work under and your own. Even a house brick can see the logic and fact in that! :rolleyes:

I am a seasoned trade unionist. Not in the flying profession but you've got the same problems, the world over!! I'd advise staying with your own 'union' rather than going into TGWU or any other. I assume you've got your own representative body? Can anyone explain it's set-up to me. Is it in the pocket of management? Your management sound typical of most management...reptilia...would sell their own children to get what they want. Get organised...fight back...shock tactics!
Your pay offer is derisory...below inflation! You're going to have to stand up for yourselves, my friends!:ok:

We have NO representative body. That's why we are being rolled over. The aircrew meeting thing has no negotiating authority.

What we do have is the chance to start something from scratch.

For info in the past 3 days I've been approached by the agencies for jobs with Thomsonfly, Excel, Air Berlin and a job in Lagos. I'm sure lots of us have been approached. The point is, I'm still here because it suits me. I could be here longterm, that's why I want it to get much better.


BTW Maat
Of course I believe in Santa. It's me every year. How do you think the presents get here?

Take it from me, stay with your rep body...BALPA...is that right? Starting up a union is fraught with disaster...mainly that it has to be recognised by the TUC...the other problem being they [the employers] can pick and chose whether to recognise it or not...only when it suits!! Any other union won't understand the intricacies of your profession.
If BALPA isn't representing you properly...take it over...using the ballot box...simple but true!!
Why are you paying into something with no negotiating powers?
Stick together like glue...unity is power...old maxims but very true!!

It is quite simple...you've got to wake up and smell the coffee! Once management get a whiff you are about to capitulate and give up...you are quite simply knackered! If I was running your firm now I'd refuse to pay you ANY pay rise...simply because I think I could get away with it!
Get organised and fight back!! Strongly worded letters and emails won't get you anywhere, my friends!!
Nine times out of ten management ALWAYS back down when you show them your mettle!!
DO IT!!:ok:

How much do you pay for BALPA membership?

See post on page 6 of this thread

I don't think they are paying into something that is not representing them at present. That's the point. Silverhawk is trying to get his colleagues to sign up to one group. As I understand it, if you get 50% membership you can then force the company into a recognition agreement where they will get sole negotiating rights for the whole pilot workforce.

If you are an individual member of a union presently you get the benefits of membership, but no group negotiating powers.

As for membership costs of BALPA, take a look http://www.balpa.org/intranet/Join-BALPA/index.htm

PP

I agree!! You lot need to get organised if you want to stay afloat!!:ok:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=222646

If you work for Jet2 read post 7 if nothing else, you'll go to bed in tears!!!

This is what we could achieve if we had BALPA.

Time to take stock.
 

With all this talk of union action perhaps PM et al will look back with fondness to the nights of freight and reflect that the grass may not always be greener on the loco side. As an ex memeber of Channel Express (Dedicated to Cargo) I look with jaundiced amusement to the goings on at Jet2.com.

I do think BALPA is the way to go - it is a "union" specialised for us after all!
We can be a strong, united group that looks out for each other and still maintain that nice feeling that (most) of us have about working for Jet2.
BALPA is a tool for us to use and we must wield it effectively. TGWU would have learn all the jargon first, for a start!! :)

G :)

Gulpers you seem to be talking sense. The TGWU wouldn't have a clue about the intricacies of your profession. As I stated before you need to stand behind your 'union' and get effective. Does BALPA have elected representation? You seem to be paying a lot of money to them!!

V, all the info you are asking is on the BALPA website, in the public domain. Click http://www.balpa.org/intranet and look at the "About BALPA" link.

An interesting aside is that one of our pilots approached an independant financial advisor and asked what it would cost to buy the various products that make up our package, like loss of licence insurance, death in service, private healthcare, tax deductable allowance etc and was quoted £1500 a month! These were all negotiated by the Company Council over the years. Suddenly 1% doesn't look that much after all.......

PP

Just to get my head around all this...do BALPA have the right to speak/negotiate/agree on behalf of their members.
Getting 'recognition' is easier said than done. If BALPA have full NEGOTIATION rights as opposed to CONSULTATION rights then stick with them. Consultation can mean lip-service. The important issue here is for you all to stick together...one thing management detest is an undivided work force!!

Balpa
 

Vercingatorix:

If that is indeed true you exhibit an alarming degree of ignorance, Balpa works under a TUC remit, if you are 'seasoned' then you would know that.

Whoa there, you are at crossed purposes here mate!

Balpa can 'speak' to anyone on a members behalf.
Balpa can only 'negoitiate' on (collective) members behalf if invited by said members and the company agree, unless the 50%+1 rule is applied (more of that later).
Balpa would only 'agree' on anything providing the membership agree first!

Not so, probably the easiest thing to do... (and management hate the lose of power :)

2 complete different things! As you rightly point out, consultation means gyp... :rolleyes: In todays morally bankrupt Airline Managment practices the only way forward is full representation. As Corporal Jones would say... they dont like it up them... ;)

Balpa can seek representation on behalf of members if membership is proven to be 50%+1 of the Pilot body. The company have NO say in this, they must agree to the Pilots being represented by a Trades union. If the management say no, and some do (we can assume this rag tag outfit would say no), then Balpa can instigate representation against the will of management, which has happened in other companies.

Vercingatorix, I hope you now understand how Balpa approach this subject? I am not connected with Balpa in any way, although I was previously a rep for a while in a previous company, now merely a member.

On the subject of this thread, I feel there are management plants in this thread, indeed there are probably more plants posting here than were in that silly MAN meeting... :rolleyes:

Applause indeed... suckers! :yuk:

Seer,

Thank you for calling a meeting of 40 aviation professionals "suckers", we really appreciate it.

As ever, you are missing the point. The gentleman in question apologised twice for his handling of the situation and promised more consultation in the future. He appeared sincere and convincing.

Yes, okay, it could have been a complete act and no, we don't expect the leopard to change his spots overnight, but it might just have been one small step in the right direction and we encouraged him with a handclap.

No doubt you would have just sneered and walked out, which would of course have solved everyone's problems.

We seem to be witnessing the complete polarisation of pilots in Jet2.

In one corner the old Channel guards, embittered and at continuous war with their enemy, the management. Their vitriolic Pprune posts will always be there to entertain us.

And in the other corner the vastly more numerous new Jet2 breed, originally slightly naive about management and willing to let them run the show, and now very irritated by sector pay and dual basing. But still not at war, and keen to negotiate rather than rant.

Silverhawk seems to talk the most sense on this thread. "Management is not the enemy but we still do need strong union representation" is his message. Silverhawk, are you in a position to start the ball rolling properly?

With you on that one Pilothouse.....as you say, there has been a focussing of minds around the crew rooms of late...

For me the only serious option is BALPA....not ideal for a lot of reasons but, as I have have witnessed in a previous company, very effective if aiding a strong company council that has the FULL backing of the pilot workforce !

So, all's quiet at the moment....before the inevitable ball-ache of summer... lets get the dedicated company forum up and running so we can get "polarised" properly.

How goes it withy Danny...Silverhawk ?

Bamthwok, pilot house, MANBLK,

My sentiments entirely - well said.

I've done my part. I joined the T&G. I am only one man. It's up to anyone else to join if they want to. Numbers are growing, but slowly. I rather suspect apathy will prevail and next time around we will be subjected to a similar scenario. If that happens we only have ourselves to blame.

I'm not convinced about Balpa, but I would join there as well if there were sufficient levels of membership.

As I've said before, I'd rather have everyone together, Flight deck, cabin crew, engineers, admin and office staff.

As far as dedicated forum, still waiting for a response from Pprune admin.

Okay then, let's try a survey.

ASAP, please PM me with:

(1) Your existing union/association (if any)
(2) Another union/association (if any) that you would be prepared to join WITHIN 28 DAYS, IF THIS WAS THE MAJORITY DECISION
(3) Would you be prepared to make a small contribution towards a private forum on Pprune?
(4) Your base (optional)
(5) Your rank (optional)
(6) Security code - look at the recently-issued base/sector table and you will find the three-letter designator for somewhere that Jet2 definitely does not fly to out of Manchester! Write down these three letters so that I know you work for Jet2.

Here's mine:
(1) IPA/IPF
(2) TGWU
(3) Yes
(4) MAN
(5) Confidential
(6) XXX

Any replies that do not include the XXX correctly decoded will be deleted.
If your PM to me is rejected because my mailbox is full, please try again later.
IMPORTANT - please resubmit if you don't get a receipt within 4 days.
I will publish the results in 14 days.
Thanks!

Thanks guys, keep them coming and please tell your colleagues. Even if they are not Ppruners they can do a one-off registration just for the survey.

The security question was made deliberately confusing to deter wild guessing - any non-scheduled will do.

Another reason why BALPA isn't as expensive as some would have you believe.

BALPA have been negotiating with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC), or the taxman to you and me, regarding the Fixed Rate Expense Allowance (FREA) system. Prior to this, FREA were negotiated locally by each tax office. This produced some glaring anomalies. In future the FREA which each airline gets will be negotiated at a national level and will result in all UK airlines getting the same together with an agreed mechanism for regular uplifts.

This applies to all uniformed commercial pilots and co-pilots, and other uniformed flight deck crew, for 2006/07 onwards. The agreement replaces all locally agreed FREAs and comes on top of the tax relief on subscriptions victory that we secured in 2004.

• The basic FREA is £850, and it applies from tax year 2006/07.
• There is a further expenses deduction of £100 to cover the allowable cost of travel to certain regular, specified activities. Under the terms of the agreement between HMRC and BALPA, uniformed pilots, co-pilots and other uniformed flight deck crew may obtain the expenses deductions for 2006/07 onwards.

There are other items that can be included like nooise cancelling headsets and uniforms if not provided by the employer. The fact is that in my airline where the locally agreed FREA was £400 pa, this means that BALPA have more than doubled my expenses deductions. Anyone in JET2 care to comment on what your locally agreed FREA was before BALPA negotiated this for your benefit too?:ok:

Add this to the 66.66% tax deductable amount off your 1% of salary membership (assuming you have been in a few years) and then all of a sudden BALPA membership is virtually FREE.

You still think the TGWU is your best option?

PP

To Balpa, congratulations and on behalf of all the non-Balpa individuals who will benefit from this FREA, thanks.

Pilot pete, further evidence of what can be done by sticking together, as if any was really needed. I want us all to stick together and the only place that can accomodate us is the T&G. Needs five crew for the aircraft to move plus all the backup staff that make up the whole airline.

Correct. But BALPA negotiated this for pilots. I can't see the T&G EVER negotiating anything like this solely for 'pilots' and even less so for a group of 'pilots and cabin crew'.

I guess all you non-BALPA members will be demanding that the taxman exclude you from this FREA (which incidently is your right), whilst you negotiate on an individual basis or through the T&G to see if you can get anything above a couple of hundred quid?) ;)

I honestly wish you good luck in your efforts to negotiate ANYTHING meaningful as a group of pilots and cabin crew together. I fear your efforts will be fruitless and fractional as many cabin crew view their position as merely a job, whereas the vast majority of pilots view their position as a career. I have seen it before, even when faced with redundancy the apathy amongst the cabin crew members I spoke with was very disappointing. In every airline I have worked in the cabin crew have been significantly split by those who wanted to make the best of it and those who really just didn't care. The proportion of pilots with a similar attitude in those airlines was vastly different.

As a negotiating body your different agendas will lead to fractions and ultimately watered down settlements, constant compromise of one group to achieve something for the other. And what big stick will you wield? I don't see too many pilots voting for industrial action over a cabin crew issue and equally I don't see too many (much lower paid) cabin crew manning the braziers in favour of improved pilot terms and conditions. Like I said, good luck though.

PP

private forum
 

from pprune admin today.

Whole structure of pprune is under review including number of private forums. More news soon.

Thanks for looking into it, Silverhawk.

Re BALPA vs T&G, I've no doubt that BALPA would eventually produce the best longterm results, despite their obvious shortcomings - not the least of which is that historically they have only really been interested in the big established operators such as BA - and easyJet is now the BA of the low cost airlines, hence BALPA's activity and success.

What concerns me is that whichever union we choose has to be affordable. It's all very well saying that BALPA's 1% is good value, but most Jet2 pilots just cannot afford any more outgoings. Their debts are HUGE and they have to go for the least cost option. If we go with BALPA we will end up with an insignificant membership and then we are back to square one with minimal representation.

My proposal is that we at least start with the T&G. It is cheap, we can quickly achieve high representation and if they want us that desperately we can insist on some rapid action. If they fail us within, say, six months we can simply dump them and consider BALPA instead.

Is there any evidence that BALPA want us? Are they actively canvassing for members? I can almost hear the groans of the Industrial Relations Officers at New Road as they relish the prospect of mauling from Uncle Philip.

Pilothouse

your proposal sounds like a perfectly acceptable strategy. It gives all and sundry the chance to join in.

If insufficient numbers join then as a pilot body we can advance on our own with a clear conscience.

Can we not organise representatives from the two serious players, BALPA and T&G to make a presentation to us with regard to what they can offer. Then we could discuss the benefits, make an informed decision between ourselves then ALL join just one union based on a majority vote.

Surely it is wasted effort for some to join T&G, some to join BALPA, some with IPA and some doing absolutely nothing. Pulling in a number of directions we simply won't get anywhere! Management will kill themselves with laughter at this rate!

Personally from what I have read/heard about BALPA makes most sense - recent track record with EZ says a lot to me. However, we all need to be able to make an informed decision based on fact not hearsay. It's time to stand up and be counted......else we risk spending the rest of our lives just bitching on prune! :ok:

LCM

Never have I read such immature and ill informed pap as some on this thread appear to be advocating. I think someone asked this question earlier, give us a list of all the UK airlines that have anything other than Balpa recognition and have managed to secure decent pay and conditions. Errr... deathly silence from the Jet2 "leaders" of the revolution to go for the IPA, T&GWU and... wait for it... joint negotiations with cabin crew and office staff.

As was mentioned earlier, the naivety being shown in this thread by those proposing anything other than Balpa representation is a sure sign that we will have yet another UK airline with flight crew who do nothing but drag the rest of the standards for the industry down with them. They will be at the bottom end of the pay scales with minimal terms and conditions and forever whingeing on here about joining the T&GWU or the IPA whilst they see their negotiations with their shrewd management being thwarted because they have some sort of elected employee representitive council whose members have totally different needs and aspirations. As usual, the lowest common denominator will be the one that secures any petty pay deals they manage to eke out of a management that must be rollong in the aisles with laughter at the blind leading the blind on this thread.

Pathetic. I for one would wager a bet that we'll see the Jet2 pilots still on here whingeing and divided in a year from now because they have such ill-informed and naive pilots trying to get them to group cohesively but not with Balapa but one of the other union/associations that have such an excellent track record representing pilots at all the other successful Uk airlines.

Watch this space and learn how not to get collective pilot representation in the UK. T&GWU and IPA, joint employee representitive councils... gimme a break! :rolleyes:

Cargo Boy,

It's very easy from your elevated status on a Virgin megaplane to look down on us poor peasants who actually handle little aeroplanes daily rather than dehydrate in bunks for hours. Virgin is established and BALPA does very well, it's obviously the right choice for you. It may not be the right choice for us, despite your eloquent reasoning.

Also, how about delaying your posts until you've got over your jetlag? From the tone of your post you don't seem to be a very nice person to know at the moment, but after a good night's local rest I'm sure you'll probably be just as pleasant as a Jet2 pilot.

I have to agree with content of cargo boy's post if not the tone, BALPA is the only way forward for us. I also believe that in a year from now nothing will have changed, apart from the fact the Meeson and his mob will have shafted us even more.

Wake up boys and girls because if we dont the pains only going to get worse.

post No156 again
 

. .

MANBLK, where I currently earn my living is irrelevant but as you were asking, yes, the Caribbean this time of year is very nice thank you and being in a company that has almost total Balpa membership has its benefits. Speaking from experience, the only way to negotiate a decent package for the pilots is with a very high membership in Balpa and from that high membership, electing your representatives who, with help from Balpa negotiators, will bargain from a position of strength.

I am still waiting to hear from the sages that are advising that you join any union except Balpa and negotiate as an employee group together with the Cabin Crew and the office staff, about any other UK airline that has successfully done so. From what I can see from my lofty heights at Britains flag carrier is that all you are managing to do is spread false hope and utopian dreams on your fellow pilots. Please try and answer the following questions:

1. Name the starting pay and highest pay achievable for both F/O's and Captains at the top earning UK airline where the pilot membership is represented by the T&GWU?

2. Name the top earning UK airline where the pilots are jointly represented by a joint employee representative council and list the pay rises they have achieved over the last 3 years?

If you are happy to lose an opportunity to get your collective act together then so be it. Whether I make these observations from my lofty flight deck or the bunk behind it is irrelevant and all I am trying to do is point out that you are managing to divide your pilot workgroup and I always thought that was managements job! :rolleyes:

Good morning Cargo Boy,

I thank you for your input here, because I feel that you are genuinely concerned for us - and I mean this in all sincerity!

I agree with everything that you say. BALPA does indeed achieve the very best for its members.

BUT - it does need a majority pilot membership, say 70% minimum. If we could get that, BALPA it should be. The problem is, what proportion of Jet2 pilots, particularly debt-laden F/O's, are prepared to stump up 1%? If not enough, then it's a complete waste of time and big money.

There's also the problem that not everybody can be convinced that BALPA is a good thing. I for one have been stuffed by them in a previous life, though it wouldn't stop me joining.

Silverhawk sees benefits in having all flying staff, and indeed office staff, under the same roof so that we have a unified grip. I don't know whether this is a good idea or not, but I do feel that a new small airline in the North may need to develop differently from an established one in the South. Not everyone agrees with the philosophy that the pilots need to look after themselves alone. We have absolutely zero us-and-them on board, they are our mates. Some pilots don't necessarily want to sacrifice them for our benefit.

Finally, if we are forced down the T&G route simply because of the 1%, it has been suggested somewhere above that it's not irreversible. To try the T&G and see it fail us is probably the best way of getting everyone to join BALPA.

My first point is that we are not a small airline! We are of similar size if not larger than Monarch and Mytravel in respect of airframes.

Second point is that Balpa know the the industry and its a known fact that Balpa are only as good as the crew council we the pilots elect to negotiate on our behalf.
Balpa has to be the way forward as it is geared up for our industry. As for the 1% well this is reduced or subsidised in the first year. So we could give Balpa a year at this subsidised rate to see if they can in fact do us some good, if not then we regroup and look at the other options.

Our collective naivity is being exploited by the management, the airline is at times being run off the pure goodwill of the staff. Meeson and his mob realise this and in my opinion are expanding largley off the back of it.
Its time they are made to realise that the staff need to be shown some respect and reasonable T&C's put in place.