You still don't get it do you? It's not BALPA that would have the apathy, it's the PILOTS. BALPA is not some organisation like a political party that has a tour bus that canvasses for members in the various airlines. It comes from the PILOTS within said companies to motivate themselves. BALPA is the framework behind them, not the driver. It's down to the pilot workforce at JET2, that are members of BALPA, to get together and form a Company Council and do the donkey work. BALPA give the support and guidance.

Why is it that professional pilots have such a hard time with this concept? I am staggered at just how often this misrepresentation of what BALPA is and how it works appears on these message boards.

PP

Pilot Pete,

There are hardly any BALPA members to form a CC!

If those few members want BALPA to be recognised, they first need to get a rapid increase in the membership. In which case they need to get in touch with BALPA Head Office to set up a recruitment meeting of members and non-members.

While the onus is indeed on the pilots to motivate themelves, BALPA is nevertheless an organisation that has an administrative core that should be willing and able to set up and finance a local meeting. In the absence of a CC, it's not up to the individual pilot members to do this, it's the union administration in response to individual pilots' requests.

And anyway, Pete, let's have YOUR ideas for a way forward. Telling me that I've got it all wrong doesn't actually get us very far, does it? Clearly you would like a strong BALPA membership within Jet2, headed by a CC. You obviously know the system, so tell us how.

Pilothouse. If you really want BALPA repersentation, you can call them and they will tell you how many pilots at Jet2 are currently members. I think you will find the numbers are large. Provided they add up to appx 50% or more, BALPA will commence formal discussion with the Company, provided the pilots want BALPA. As for me I have been a BALPA member for many years and would like to see them at Jet2.

Boeingmann,

In that case, as you are a BALPA member and want to see BALPA represented at Jet2, please start the ball rolling. If membership is already large, once the rest see some action I'm sure that 50% won't be a problem.

And despite my previous posts, I'll consider rejoining if they will have me.

Piolthouse

I am in BALPA for the many benefits that are available to me through that organization. I am not a member simply becouse I want someone to represent me at pay negotiation.

I am not sure what it is you are after, but if you think simply having BALPA within Jet2 things will change to your advantage you need to think again. If you have a problem with the management speak to them.

I for one have found Jet2 management co-operative and one that listen to the work force. Good example was the question of dual base for MAN crew. How many Managing Directors do you know in this industry that would stand before its work force and apologize for getting wrong ????

Boeingman

"How many Managing Directors do you know in this industry that would stand before its work force and apologize for getting wrong ????"

I guess not many but then again he seems to apologize for various balls ups once a year. Did he use his usual excuse this time? - "I have been on leave this letter was sent out by mistake." Even though he wrote it!!! :ugh:

Bartelby

Bartelby.

That was the excuse I was expecting, but no he just took it on the chin.

I'm still waiting for my payout from the buzz scandal.....the one weeks salary that BALPA managed to secure. Has anybody else received it? BALPA are full of s$%t and were somewhat impotent in that particular case.:D

I have no idea how many members you have in JET2.

Hold on, you want them to pay for you to have a meeting? If there are 'so few' members why couldn't you organise a meeting down the local pub, or are you unwilling to outlay ANYTHING in the pursuit of bettering your terms and conditions? What exactly would you want BALPA to say at this meeting? Don't you think they are going to just tell you to join? All the info about membership is available to you. If you could bother to be pro-active you could find out everything yourself, you could even telephone them and I am sure some nice person at New Road would give you the time of day.

It really isn't rocket science. The SYSTEM is simply JOIN! Once you are a member get in touch with New Road, get as many new joiner information packs as you can and SPEAK to your fellow pilots. Encourage them to join, give them the info and as soon as you have 50% membership plus 1 pilot, push BALPA for a Recognition Agreement.

:ugh: What is up with you people, what exactly do you need to see from them before you take control of your own future and get all your fellow pilots to do the same? JOIN! Don't give some crap about "I'll consider joining if they'll have me". Fill in the form, put your money where your mouth is and start recruiting fellow pilots. Why don't YOU set the ball rolling instead of wanting someone else to do it, someone else to tell you how to do it and generally just wanting things to get better, but not being willing to take the plunge until others have. If your fellow pilots adopt the same attitude as that then there is no hope of you bettering your terms and conditions. Start paying, get a say and then push from the inside.

You can take a horse to water springs to mind.....

PP

Pete,

You may have noted from the thread that I have had bad experiences with BALPA in the past. I have had no alternative but to resign - twice. They may not have me back. I need convincing.

You want me to just JOIN yet you and an unspecified number of others are already members and have offered not a single incentive. You now want ME to join and recruit others! And you would rather I organised a "pub meeting" rather than you and other Jet2 BALPA members get New Road to organise a recruitment meeting? I ask you, which is likely to more successful at achieving what we all want, a consultative voice at Jet2?

757operator (above somewhere) may be an intruder but he hit the nail right on the head. The BALPA element in Jet2 have shot the likes of Silverhawk into tiny pieces without offering a shred of an alternative.

I don't feel like I've been shot to pieces and as I've said before, I welcome all the input on here.

The T&G has proved to be a non-starter, approx 10 memberships across the company. For those of you who are proved that I was wrong, you were right.

I thought it was an avenue worth investigating. Lesson learned thanks.

Thanks Silverhawk for letting us know that. So now it's BALPA or nothing, at least that narrows it down a bit.

The remaining doubt seems to be that those already in BALPA don't actually feel inclined to get the ball rolling. I suppose it's going to be up to the present non-members as Pilot Pete suggests.


Edited for typos

Your right pilothouse. Most of the current BALPA members are in BALPA for their own reasons, not for reasons of union recognition and representation. That said, I personally would welcome recognition & representation.

Even if current BALPA members had encouraged others to join with recognition and representation in mind, with so much talk of the T & G, the IPA etc, it would have been a waste of time.

Some posters on this thread have expressed anti BALPA feelings due to past experiences, yourself and silverhawk included. Maybe BALPA are not perfect, but they are the only realistic option, it's up to us to make it what we want.

Don't assume current BALPA members have done or are doing nothing. The membership joining packs that got distributed in the LBA crew room drop files didn't put themselves there. But until we can all agree that BALPA is the way forward, it's better to encourage membership quietly. The managment are the best recruiting tool BALPA have, what with dual basing, part time working etc; it's only a matter of time.

BTW, if you want some membership joining packs for MAN distibution, call membership and ask for them.

What are you talking about? What more incentive do you need than bettering your lousy terms and conditions?:rolleyes: Whatever bad experiences you have had of 'BALPA' I cannot comment on as I know nothing about them. I am also not a pilot in JET2, but I take an enlightened INDUSTRY view of how ALL pilots in the UK can improve their 'lot' and that is by all companies having strong representation (like the percieved 'better' companies already have). I offer my view as a possible way forward, and in my opinion the ONLY way forward, as I have yet to be convinced that any other form of representation could work.

I take my hat off to Silverhawk for trying with the T&G. He has been big enough to come back on here and openly admit that it has been a non-starter. I admire him for that and it would appear you need a few more pilots with some conviction to sort something out for your combined betterment.

I do not wish to appear personal, but pilothouse, what do you want? Spoon feeding? You keep making comments about how everyone else should do something for you, but seem unprepared to be pro-active. Why do others need to come to you to convince you? You obviously haven't reached the point when you consider 'enough is enough' with regards to your terms and conditions. This will be true of many pilots in your company. Look at the pain the easyJet pilots had to go through before they reached that point late last year and eventually realized that the way forward was to make a stand. They increased their BALPA membership and sent a message to management that has resulted in their recent successful pay negotiations. I fear that the majority of JET2 pilots have not reached that point in your company and people like Silverhawk are banging their heads against the wall.....

If you read through my previous entries in this thread you will see the 'incentives' that I have offered, which make BALPA good value for money. I can only speak from personal experience and I know that my (now 1% due to length of time as a member) have been more than paid back through successful pay negotiations which have yielded more than 1% above what I could have negotiated on a personal level and other enhancements to my terms and conditions, like Block Window Protection, rostering agreements, hotac and travel minimum levels of service, leave bidding, longhaul bidding, 10 pairs of annual guaranteed days off, pension (a mute point, but the ONLY Defined Benefit pension scheme still open to new joiners in the UK airlines) and flexible working where days off can be sold back to the company. There are more besides. All these have been negotiated through a strong BALPA membership, but I make the point again that it is not 'big' BALPA, but a strong company membership giving the elected Company Council the mandate to go to the negotiating table with the strength of support that can yield results. Want any more incentives before you make a choice?

It is the strength of feeling and determination within the individuals to collectively stand up to a management who are just doing what they are paid to do, ie keep costs as low as possible, that will ultimately lead to the individuals deciding to take action. I feel you certainly are not at that stage pilothouse and if the majority of others in JET2 feel the same then you have a few years yet of lousy terms and conditions ahead. You have a high number of pilots who have come from varied backgrounds who are not passionate enough about seeing JET2 as a career airline and an awful lot of new young guys who are still in their honeymoon period of being ever so grateful to have a jet job.

So it's not just a case of current BALPA members not being inclined to get the ball rolling, its about lack of motivation amongst the majority. I personally feel that as a pilot group you will have to go through the pain before you reach the point where the motivation occurs to an extent that can be channelled into action.

I don't see the point in 'big' BALPA running a recruitment meeting. The info about membership is all out there already. You can read it all by clicking on the BALPA website. You can read all about the other membership benefits there too. What BALPA can't do is motivate you. You need to do that yourself, but by the sounds of it you will blame that on BALPA too.:rolleyes:

If you want something you have to get off your proverbial @rses and make it happen, because all the time you sit here typing about no-one motivating you, the longer it will be before your position is bettered.

Good luck.

PP

Pilot Pete,

Because you don't know Jet2 from the inside, I fear that you are probably missing the point. It is not as simple as you make it sound. I'll leave it at that.

If I'm missing the point, you have your head in the sand. I hope you get it out or else you are destined for poor terms and conditions for many years to come. Explain just how complicated it is; You all join the one organisation that has a proven track record of increasing pilot terms and conditions in the UK and then get a recognition agreement. Simple. If you don't like BALPA because of their imperfect track record then fine. Don't join. But don't whinge about your collective lot and then not do anything pro-active about it. You can negotiate with your employer yourself and get nowhere or you can unite and get one combined voice, singing from the same song sheet, that the management cannot ignore.

All the best.

PP

By the way, I know a number of Jet2 pilots, so not on the inside but I get a reasonable idea for the way things are....

Pete, from one "intruder" to another,

He is only trying to achieve what you suggest, it's just that it won't happen unless there is some positive marketing because BALPA is too expensive for debt-ridden First Officers.

Sorry I don't understand that statement. When I was an air taxi pilot earning £18k, just after training, with loads of training debts and a second child on the way I didn't consider it too expensive, I considered it as a necessary expense, and don't forget it's not 1% when you start and all the other benefits which reduce the 1% have been pointed out in previous pages of this thread.

The problem is not enough motivation to join from the individuals. If they want to improve their lot I don't see another option. In my opinion they can't afford NOT to join unless they are happy with their current terms and conditions.

PP

I disagree. They can take their problem to the Management, if still unhappy they can leave and join a "career airline". Last time I looked nobody was forcing anyone to stay at Jet2 if they are unhappy.

BALPA
 

I joined BALPA 5 years ago at my previous employer during a 'memebership drive'. We had a secret postal ballot resulting in 70+% in favour. Nothing happened for 2 years despite several active individuals chasing up progress. We then had another 'membership drive' followed by a ballot with a greater % in favour, again nothing happened. Emerald went bust last month due to some extent because the Dictator running it managed to give BALPA the run around for 5+ years, even with their clear mandate. I am not convinced that BALPA are up to dealing with another Dictatorial style CEO.
I have remained a BALPA member now that i am at Jet2, but only for the Legal Rep alone. I like to think that i am a reasonable chap and can weigh up the arguments, but can't say that i am personally convinced by the above arguments for representation, and i am not alone. My previous experience of BALPA has soured my previous hopeful attitude.
I am leaving Jet2 shortly because of money and T&C's. I don't want to make a fuss or slag-off Jet2 and so just decided to vote with my feet.
Beware the silent majority.

" Whir DOOMED Capt Mainwaring....DOOMED !! "

Sorry to hear that your off Matey...looks like a "few" more resignations this month....All the best.

Mmm. One of my previous companies bought a smaller company and merged seniority lists, with the inevitable demotions & fleet changes. Didn’t affect me, I was in the ‘parent’ company.

Some of the disaffected pilots started a company council, they even called themselves the BALPA CC, not that the company recognised BALPA or there was anything like 50% +1 BALPA membership at the time. At the time many of us thought the CC were a bunch of pretenders; nobody voted for them, nobody asked for them, no one thought we needed them.

Over the years as my previous company grew, the original, approachable management began to be replaced by sharp-suited yes men, who’s autocratic style was coupled to their aggressive manner. Gradually, as more and more pilots collected disciplinaries for one thing or another & other grievances of various sorts, it was the self-appointed CC that began to get involved, usually with positive results. They had of course the advice and backing of BALPA; the CC’s stated aim was to gain BALPA membership and recognition from the outset.

As this company grew, stabilised and shrunk again, the role of the CC became very important, for example it was they that secured a rostering agreement that dictated a reasonable lifestyle. Rostering up until then was all about single days off, days off down route, finishing on late duties & starting on earlies; things that don’t affect Jet2 yet, but as the company becomes more organised it surely will. It was CC that got the pay rises (Jet2: Less than inflation this year), the reasonable loss of licence insurance (Jet2: 8 weeks paid, rest unpaid until you lose the licence), the decent medical insurance (Jet2: recently changed, use the NHS first), pilots trained up as pension scheme trustee’s so that they could monitor changes in the company pension scheme (Jet2: new scheme, old one wrapped up, advantages or disadvantages not fully known yet).

And finally as the company lost money and began to shrink, it was the CC, by now with pilots BALPA 50% +1 membership and full recognition; that sorted the redundancies and demotions out. To my knowledge there were no compulsory redundancies.

It all started with a few energetic and farsighted individuals who had the foresight and energy to start a company council.

Silverhawk: Thanks for the PM, I will be in touch over the next few weeks, either by PM or phone

Problem yet again is the misinterpretation of what BALPA is. You don't join, sit back and wait for BALPA to fight your battles for you. You HAVE to motivate yourselves. If Emerald was that bad, why didn't the pilots demand action by threatening to strike? Simplistic I know, but if you let the dictator walk all over you and don't stand up to be counted, how can you blame an organisation that provides the backroom staff? Trouble is the 'dictator' knew what he could get away with. Anyone who pays (was it) £12k for an HS748 rating is not going to go out on strike due to lousy terms and conditions, at least not for some time.

It's the same at JET2. So many guys are either in it for themselves having had a career elsewhere or starting out with a huge debt and no experience, that they can dictate lousy terms and conditions for some time. If you stand up and be counted then you could improve them.

Boeingman

I quite agree. I wasn't including leaving as an option! True though, there will be those who decide enough is enough and leave for pastures new. This can be a big factor if used collectively to bargain for better terms and conditions. I hear Easy and Ryanair are losing guys at quite a pace, as quickly as they bring in new hires!

Trouble is, a certain amount of turnover appeals to companies these days as someone who stays years and years tends to cost more money, especially in a career airline with payscales etc. Evaluate training costs and it can become more desirable to have a turnover rather than retain in the short termism that most businesses seem to follow these days. Once the low cost airlines become 'mature' it will happen there too, this is one reason why MoL despises unions because he knows it will cost him long term.

I think maat has given a very good example that demonstrates that BALPA is not the driver, it is the 'informed passenger' offering support services. So why do those with a bad experience keep blaming 'BALPA'? I just don't get it. What is so difficult for intelligent people to understand about the way BALPA works?

PP

Edited to add that I agree that Jet2 maybe a decent lifestyle option for many right now; not too much flying, decent rostering and friendly crewing staff all willing to help. Rest assured it won't be like that forever and many will be bleating when the lifestyle issues have been eroded and the terms and conditions aren't good.

BALPA
 

We did stand and were literally counted, albeit postally. Those who voted for BALPA did directly resist Management by refusing hire cars for lengthy positioning following flight duty. Several pilots were suspended for refusing 'dangerous or illegal rosters or unserviceable aircraft. The battle was not even about pay and T&C's but flight safety. BALPA let all the efforts down by failing to deliver their part of the bargain and seek legal recognition, twice! BALPA were scared of the Dictator, was the view held by crews. That is still the view of most of my now redundant ex-colleagues. We 'appointed' three Rep's but all were suspended then sacked.
I reiterate that i am not convinced that BALPA deliver what they promise. It is always 'get the membership levels up, then we will be able to do something'. They didn't at Emerald, is the indisputable sorry fact of the matter. Can't see that they will uphold their end of the bargain at Jet2 even if you stand and are counted and everybody sticks their necks out.
Five or more years of dissappointment have coloured my view, i must admit, but all my best wishes to the next batch of volunteers to 'go over the top'.

OK, I don't know the full story, but how many of the 'sacked' colleagues downed tools en masse in protest (after a ballot of course)? Sounds like the rest of the pilots were scared of the dictator.

PP

I was very sorry to see Emerald go to the wall. There are fine pilots at that company. Indeed we have some ex-Emerald pilots here at Jet2 who have shown to be excellent operators in both seats, I would like to see more of them here at Jet2.

Emerald's problem was AJ. He simply took money out of the airline and never put any back. MOB's one task in the world was to make sure the money was there for AJ at the end of the year. Hence why MOB never took the pilot force into account.

Jet2 is part of The Dart Group which in turn is a PLC fully accountable for all of its financial dealings, including salary and dividend paid to its Directors. These are available to the public via The London Stock Exchange.

Over the past 20+years PM has built the business into what it is today. He has done this by putting huge investment back into the business. He is no AJ. Sure he can operate on a short fuse and sure he is single minded at times, but NO he is no dictator. There are not many loco airlines that have grown at the rate of Jet2 in such a short time. One of the mean reasons is the drive and energy that PM puts into the business, aside from the huge financial investment.

I have monitored PPRUNE for a number of years and only recently decided to post on it. I am sick of all the negative and false comments made by people who have no understanding of Jet2 and appear to simply want to cause trouble.

I make no apology for being pro Jet2 and specially pro PM. I am here because I want to be. Sure I want more money and better terms, but not at the cost of my job. I want these when the company can afford them.

You are correct that not many 'downed tools'. The three Reps, unfortunatley, gave the Company the ammunition with which to sack them and so the actual dismissals could hardly be a rallying point. You are also correct that many said 'I'll hold your coat' to the Reps, but then never refused anything the Company imposed on them. Is this representative of many pilot populations i wonder? BALPA told us that they were the experts and we believed them and did as were asked. They did not persue recognition through the tribunal as promised. What else is there to say?

Boeingman: I hope that your post stating 'negative and false comments' is not aimed at my posts. I said that i do not want to slag-off Jet2
and stand by that. I personally like and admire PM for his success with the growth in Jet2 and for giving me employment, but I question your assessment of PM not being dictatorial. I refer to APU and Alternate Basing policies. Both of which were not thought through and the latter clearly imposed without regard to consideration of crews. Do you mean to say that PM is not involved in every aspect of Jet2 and will not have his way in any argument? Would he not resist voluntary recognition of BALPA?

Yes it is. Apathy is rife, militancy scarce (as we are professionals), this means we tend to take much more before we 'bleat'. Problem is when this is exploited, it takes until the final straw either breaks the camel's back or it is too late.

You will never find ANY company that can afford staff payrises. Fact. It will take years and years of being told how tough the operating environment is, etc etc and the management will always have an excuse. Being the conservative bunch that pilots are, they will take this for years and years until they either are motivated enough to take action or they leave for pastures new.

Again, I wish you all well in Jet2.

PP

My reply was not directed at your post. I was referring to earlier posts. The question of APU as you know this is at the Captain's discreation. As to the dual base I have dealt with this in earlier post. I have know situations when PM did not get his way. I dont know how PM would feel about voluntary recognition, but I guess it would not be at the top of his list.

Good luck in your new job.

Despite my reservations, I'm joining BALPA and quitting the IPA/IPF.

With tax relief it's cheaper than I thought for the first couple of years, and if there is no representation by then I won't have spent much.

I'm happy at Jet2 and certainly don't want to see a gulf between the pilots and a friendly management, but a bit of constructive consultation wouldn't go amiss.

My concern is that quite a few pilots seemed determined to leave for a top job and therefore regard the future of Jet2 as irrelevant to them. But not everyone can join the best employers. For the benefit of all of us, I urge as many as possible to join BALPA asap. Even on the bottom F/O salary, hopefully you can afford the net sub of around £11 per month?

Pilot Pete et al, it's okay, you don't need to flame me with "told you so" - but I expect you will!

I suggest you refrain from knocking Silverhawk. He's straight, knowledgeable, intelligent and a bloody good mate of mine. But looking at most of the contributers on this particular thread, I don't think many of you (if any) know him but if you did, you'd soon realise that his concerns are for effective benefit of the majority of his colleagues.

Personal attacks are pointless, immature and say more about the author than the subject.

Dart Group Plc (parent company of Jet2) have just released their financial result for the year ending 31 March 2006. Profit after tax and extraordinary item (Jet2 HQ move from BOH to LBA) is £14 Million. Further fleet expansion 3 x 757-200 and 1 x 737-300. All aircraft are purchased via mortgages, NONE are leased.

Still Got His Clubs, need any help with the "sh!t" in your eyes.

So the Group results seem pretty good.

Someone explain to me then please. Why no pay rise for the aircrew at end of year 2005/6? Why reduction in private health scheme for management/captains?

As a member of staff why am I expected to boost the profits and enhance the shareholders dividends from my own pocket?

I think I'll call Angelo. Now is the time to commence the process for the Spring 2007 package. At the moment Angelo is our only means of communication.

As we all know, if you don't ask, you just won't get.

It has nothing to do with what might be 'right' or 'fair', it is all about keeping costs as low as possible. A united workforce is the only way to prevent the cost cutting being at the expense of the staff.

PP

I agree 100%. I think in earlier post Pilot Pete has made the point that the terms enjoyed at career airlines have come with maturing of the airline. Jet2 is still growing and operating in a very competitive market. It will be while before the "fat" is such that conditions at Jet2 will be equal or better than at career airlines.

In the meanwhile, we can work with the management to obtain the best conditions. As to the pay for 2005/6, there was a pay increase and an increment payment. It may not meet everyones expectation never the less there was an increase.

I agree there was a rise but it was derisory, the increment was a loyalty type payment for each year of service completed.

The pay rise in the form of sector pay was a disaster for the company and yesterday’s announcement of the net profit made by Dart adds insult to injury in my opinion.
Management can sweeten it up all they like but it does not match the cost of living rise in the UK this year.

I hope that yesterday’s profit announcement will stir some of our more dormant colleagues into action by joining the chosen representative body (BALPA) and understand that representation is required NOW to stop the rot.

Most airlines start off making a loss for the first few years, then a small profit and then being considered mature. Not the case with Jet2. It has only been in operation a couple of years as Jet2, but comes on the back of a very successful operation returning a profit every year for many years. I take my hat off to those responsible for that.

Incremental pay is already agreed and amounts to approx 1% give or take.
Sector pay was new and therefore a rise. Fairly insulting to captains though and a downright slap in the face for first officers and cabin crew.
In total a reduction in pay as compared to inflation at the same time as the group posts another annual profit.

The airline has been in existence since 1978, makes it 28 years old. Apart from me, I think you'll find most things have matured by age 28.

Boeingmann, we would love to work WITH the mangement. Expansion benefits most of us, but don't expect us to sit back while our T&Cs are eroded.

Finally, we have something in common.

Ardacre, would you have prefer the announcement showing a loss ???

boeingmann,
I think Ardacre was expecting to see a loss in view of the pay conditions rather than such a profit figure. I'm sure he along with all at Jet2 are happy that the company contiues to profit and expand. They are just stating their case, oops just been called out, anyway you get the point.
Ta-ra.

Boeingmann wrote,
would you have prefer the announcement showing a loss ???
No I wouldn't have wanted us to make a loss in fact I am delighted with the profit the company has made.
I will restate my position so even you boeingmann can understand,
The company has made a good profit and so I believe the staff should at least be able to share in its success with a respectable pay rise, not the derisory (that means low to you boeingmann) one given by management.
The profits have again risen this year yet our T&C's have diminished, I am hoping that our collegues that are dorment ( sitting on the fence in the back ground to you boeingmann) will join BALPA and get the majority up to what we require for some form of official representation which will hopefully get our T&C's back to where they should be.