I realise not everyone is getting a great deal!(most aren't in fact) And also realise that a lot of staff will be let go and made redundant. Despite all the hard work they have put in over the years! :( (which I'm sorry to hear)

On the other hand, when cabin/flight crew are made to move base what kind of compensation do they receive?:hmm:

Anyway, sorry to roam off topic.

Understood

I've had a chat with a member of pilot management about pay and dual basing and received a warm response, and I'm sure there will be no repercussions in this case.

Ladies and Gentlemen

I am pleased to hear that optomism is in the air. As I have said earlier, keep your powder dry.


Today's problems will be resolved. Tomorrow's are unseen.

Keep your eye on the ball. Don't expect the same response from BOH/LBA next time unless we are serious.


Guys, you all must realise that the only reason they have listened this time is due to the level of dissatisfaction displayed.

The number of experienced staff moving to LBA is going to be very low, if management realised this then maybe they would be more supportive. The "package" is unfortunately not good enough for people and families to relocate (unless you are a manager or a single person looking for a rabbit hutch to live in a dodgy area!)
I personally pity the crew who will be left with very inexperienced staff trying to run the airline or staff who they have had to employ from the ticket desk or even cabin crew. This together with the crews new sector pay there will be a lot of frustrated people. :ugh:

Before the sector pay letter came out, I hoped that the management would have forseen the disruption that moving BOH to LBA will cause, the grieve that we are all expecting as the expierence of opp's and crewing goes; and the probable increase in work with new routes and more four sector days for the year. The rough times ahead could have been smoothed with a respectable offer.
I'm already in Balpa but hear too many comments of its ineffectiveness and wonder if its worth the money, certainly will be if the majority join.
Sounds like we need silverhawk as the union rep... But how many of us are already in one? And I'm sure they would greet us all with open arms until they had our subscription, then show if their worth it or not...:bored:

This thread is an eye opener of the naivety that appears to prevail in Jet2... Sorry to say but you lot are about to be done over by your boss who is oh so way ahead of any of you....:eek: A mate of mine told me the experience level in Jet2 was fairly low, now I can see it, have any of you got any previous experience of the kind of skulldugery airline managements excel in...??? Doubt it.

Now, where to begin... :rolleyes:

Dewpoint:
'Ease the pain', are you going to pay the F/O's who are being royaly done over?? No, didn't think so...

clearfortheoption
Are you and Dewpoint joined at the hip? How can F/O's straight from Flight School have 'bad experiences'..?

Pilothouse
...then witters on about rosters and lifestyle make up for it all.... they are not mutually exclusive you know! (Management stooge alert here...:uhoh: )

Silverhawk
Silverhawk, mate, I like the cut of your jib... but please... get a grip!
Management ARE the enemy, you better wise up quick matey... Coz sure as sh!t they view you lot as public enemy number 1... And they are not about to get all touchy feely with you either...

All one way though...

Choose ANY union OTHER than Balpa and you are wasting your time, trust me... :{

MANBLK
They will be giving him a big pat on the back more like...

When will you get it through your little heads that Balpa are but a tool at your disposal, and damn good tool, but a tool none the less, they do what you ask them to do, and Balpa is you, through a Company Council.

Completely irrelevant to whats being discussed here.

Dry behind your ears son...:bored:

Having said all that (phew), there does seem to be some cohesion amongst many Jet2 crew, but for your own well being and longevity, please wisen up guys. Management are the enemy, pure and simple, to think anything else is suicide. Sure, be nice, be polite, but in the dark smoke filled rooms, be militiant. Be very very careful of quasi management types 'being on your side'... Types who spout that type of drivel usually cannot lie straight in bed...
Someone mentioned that your boss will never recognise a union, well he has no choice in the matter, he seems to model himself on MOL, so maybe he needs some of what MOL's about to get...;)

I have to say that many posters to this thread seem to have a 'rose tinted spectacles' view of modern airline management, probably because as I said
earlier your company is full of low houred people (& ex mil yes men), but no one else is going to protect your T&C's!

To sum up, get organised, get Balpa involved, and get respect.

Come and work for us and spread the gospel, seer.

We have seen:

F27 pilots sold down the river after months of assurances.

Airbus pilots about to be made redundant whilst the company recruits 757 pilots. The BALPA Head of Legal Service BALPA intervened; Airbus pilots were then retrained on the Airbus

Manchester pilots informed by letter they are about to be dual based Manchester/Blackpool. All a ‘mistake’ we are told, after much protest.

But still no one gets it. Most here are on the first job, or first job in Civilian Street as you have noted. They’re just naïve.

The ‘pay rise’ every one is carping on about is disappointing for some, we had been told for some time we would receive sector pay, I think people were expecting Easy/Ryan/BMI Baby type levels of sector pay. But we don’t work anything like as hard as those companies, though I recognise some bases and pilots work harder than others, particularly trainers. My view is we’re not badly paid for what we do, though that may change as the company grows. It is hard on the FO’s though; most are broke after paying for their own type rating.

But all this when the industry is suffering from a shortage of experienced, type rated pilots. What’s it going to be like when & if the industry experiences a downturn?

SEER,

If you do indeed work for Jet2, then I suggest that you are in the wrong place. With attitudes like yours, a favourable relationship between management and crew will NEVER HAPPEN. Please don't wreck it for the rest of us before we've heard what Friday brings.

BALPA? I've been totally shafted by them. They have their good points but never again.

Sorry to hear that your 'enlightened' management is still treating you all like yesterday's garbage. Your work situation seems to have deteriorated quite significantly since we were all arguing on the 'Jet2 757 Fleet' thread about the pros & cons of life with Jet2, & I got well & truly castigated for saying what I thought: Jet2 management are total tripe. :ouch:

Some people are missing from this current thread though. I notice that the following, who were overly excited in their support of appalling management, are conspicuous by their abscence. Where are Trip Switch, Jet2, Pilothouse (I know, he's still living in a Jet2 wonderland as Seer has pointed out), Pol1wx, Nearly Man, Haughtney1 (why, when you work at Monarch, did you get so uptight about Jet2?), & Bam Thwok (I see that I'm now Aileron am I, Get a grip). The one I really feel for is Shuperstar Loadie. I think that you are a very loyal guy (totally misplaced) who now, possibly, has to search for digs in Leeds. We're poles apart, SL, but I hope that your loyalty will be rewarded.

PM & ID prey on you for the following reasons. 1) They are bullies & it's in them: it's their style. 2) You have far too many new FOs who are just grateful of a job & will put up with more than most until they have the hours to leave and/or have paid off their debt. 3) Too many Captains are crap & because deep down they know this they are under confident of passing a conversion course with another carrier therefore they remain seated with Jet2. 4) Your management pilots are, again, weak: they will not stand up to PM for fear of losing something. 5) FOs are not regarded with the respect that they deserve for being qualified & type rated airline pilots (see above for the manager Vs supervisor role that prevails in Jet2). It helps to divide & conquer a workforce.

If you have reasons, other than the above, for wanting to stay with the nastiest airline in Europe then captains support FOs, FOs support captains, all support the cabin crew & you'll have a cohesive unit that may be able to force PM to give you at least half of what every other airline pilot in the UK can expect. For those of you with talent, & there are some, especially FOs, my advice remains the same: leave.

My beef was always with the dictatorial management at Channex, never most of the workforce. I genuinely wish you the best of luck, especialy the BOH staff who are being totally shafted. As for the flying staff, well look on the bright side, at least the paltry offer of secor pay will be supplemented by the increase in duty pay that you're all now going to receive with the eusuing delays in France!:hmm:

Difficult to think of a riposte to that. Pulp's foresight has silenced many it seems.

Vim

Hmm, I wonder where X-Centric is too ;)

The naivet being shown on this thread is astonishing. For whatever reason, inexperience or stupidity, the suggestions being expressed here about getting recognition by the TGWU or being represented jointly with cabin crew are a sure sign that you are all going to be shafted for a long time to come and deservedly so with these attitudes.

Show me one single UK airline where anyone other than BALPA have managed to get decent representation. Also, show me any single UK airline where pilots AND cabin crew are represented jointly and everyone is happy. I'm sure that you'll come up with a veritable list of success stories... NOT!

The only way you pilots are going to get any leverage over your pay and conditions is if you have a substantial majority of members in the only union that has successfully represented pilots and that's BALPA. Only the companies that have a high BALPA membership, over 70%, have any clout in their negotiations. The misguided innocence of some on here who fail to realise, as has been mentioned, that BALPA are just a tool and it is how you use that tool through your elected Company Council that will determine how well you get on with your negotiations.

Also, to offer the management some sort of representative employee council made up of both pilots and cabin crew is a non starter. How on earth you can get any leverage when the majority of your members will have nowhere near the skills, responsibilities or salary levels that you have or aspire to. Management at Jet2 must be in agony over the pain in their sides from laughing so much.

Talk about prime candidates for divide and conquer. No serious airline experienced union, if any. Suggestions that you be jointly represented with cabin crew who have nowhere near the same responsibilities, levels of training or salary requirements. You are separate in terms of status in the company, although they'd just love you to fall into the trap of associating yourselves as easily trained cabin crew instead of middle management level professionals.

Watch this space as Jet2 pilots dig themselves into a hole through inexperience and naivety. Revisit this thread in a year or so and see exactly the same problems they are having now repeat themselves. Anyone remember a few years ago when there were moves amongst the Ryanair pilots to unionise? They failed to sort themselves out because of exactly the same reasons being bandied about in this thread and look where they are today. Shafted and trying desperately to extricate themselves from the mess they're in with their own terms and conditions.

If you want to give yourselves any chance of proper representation then it has to be a solid backing for BALPA and don't fall into the trap of being jointly represented with the cabin crew or any other workers. No disrespect to them but they have their own unions with the necessary skills to back them up if they manage to organise themselves. Anything else is a wasted effort.

HON 1R, if that's the best that you can come up with, buddy, then just keep standing by the side of 24L spotting & jacking off at all the big shiny planes.:ooh:

Balpa is in-effective and expensive. Give yourselves a 1% pay cut to join. Teaming up with cabin crew in the same union can only strengthen our position as a united workforce. Every tried operating a passenger service without cabin crew?

I have been a member of Balpa. They are weak and not interested in a fight with management. I will join another union but never Balpa.

We need to have something in place so we don't get shafted again next year.

Pulp
 

Glad to hear from you. I agree with much of what you say about the management. Many of us are still here because we have our own good reasons for doing so. That is why I'm still here, not because I can't get a better paid job elsewhere.

I sure hope we are revisiting this thread in a year's time. Hopefully by then all sides will have learnt some valuable lessons because every day's a day at school.

OK so management are evil... they shaft the ground staff..... and then they shaft the flight crews..... but why make 'no job' a director !!!???? Whats goin on here ?

I guess flight and cabin crew need some 'directing' on how to wear their high vis jackets, while the ground staff...... well, who knows! As long as everyone is SAFE.

Thought they were trying to cut down on the number of chiefs????

Safe flying everyone;)

Oh Dear Pulp Fiction / X-Centric. Here we go again.
As always, you've got some cheek......
Thankfully for us you now work for Ryanair (and deserve each other) so what's this thread got to do with you ?
On a previous thread, you called all your ex colleagues "scum", amoebas", and "crap" to quote just a few of your childish, chip on the shoulder remarks.

Grow up.

P.S. Say hello to your buddies at NASA. We all had a good laugh at that. :ok:

Seer,

The question was, why would anyone want to work for Jet2? I answered it the way I see it and it's my choice that I'm here.

Yes, we could indeed have all the good things AND good pay, excellent t's and c's and brilliant management. As you say, they are not mutually exclusive - but we would be virtually the first airline to achieve it.

One thing I like at Jet2 is that there is far less whingeing on the shopfloor than at anywhere else I've worked. Obviously I haven't come across you yet. Your whole life seems like one big battlefield.

Important message to Cabin Crew
 

There's a rumour floating around that Friday's meeting is mainly for pilots, and that cabin crew will be represented by your local supervisors. This is not correct - as many of you as possible need to be there!

As pointed out by others, "Balpa" has nothing to do with the negotiations in individual airlines, other than offering trained negotiators and the legal backup that the Company Council may require.

The Company Council are the team that negotiate with management if you have a Recognition Agreement. The Company Council is made up of elected members who all serve as line pilots within said airline.

If they don't have much support then they cannot negotiate very effectively and hence the misconception that "Balpa" are toothless. Your previous experiences may have been of a toothless CC, BUT, did you and your colleagues give them the mandate they need to be effective? If not then it is no surprise when they come back with a recommendation to accept some derisory company offer; they can't advise you to reject an offer if you don't give them the mandate to go back to the table to negotiate a better offer. They MUST have the "big stick" held in reserve to be effective. If they were completely ineffective, then perhaps you could have voted them out or perhaps even stood for election yourself?

The so called "decent" airlines have better terms and conditions through a strong membership of Balpa (as has been said, no other union has represented a pilot body in the UK with any effect). This gives the mandate to the CC to negotiate the best deal possible. Balpa is "you", not some caged tiger that gets wheeled out when a few of you get unhappy about conditions. Background Balpa offers the support to CCs and individual pilots by way of Financial and Legal services etc.

As for joining with cabin crew, again I have to agree that you are putting yourselves at a disadvantage. Management will always be looking to give something only in return for something. I can see the pilots in Jet2 constantly being under pressure to 'give' in order for cabin crew to 'receive'. One will be played off against the other. Much better for both to be represented separately and negotiate individually for better conditions.

As for "giving yourself a 1% paycut" by joining Balpa, that has to be the most short-sighted view possible. If you join and get nothing (and incidently, it's NOT 1% for new joiners for the first few years) then sure it has cost you. BUT, if you join in sufficient numbers, give your CC a negotiating mandate and they negotiate ANYTHING more than (maximum membership fee) 1% better on your Sector Pay and basic salary then by my book you are better off. You get nowt for nowt in this world, so invest in your futures.

I work in the same sector where we have 90% membership of Balpa. Over the years our CC have consistently negotiated pay rises which more than cover the membership fee, plus many other lifestyle enhancing deals. "Balpa" are only as strong as the collective group....Easyjet pilots are realising this and have mobilised in significant numbers and now have given their CC the mandate to go back to the negotiating table and ask for more....

Good luck to you all in Jet2, the issues affect all our industry terms and conditions, not just yours.

PP

TGWU
 

With the T&G we get everything Pilot Pete admires for £9.32 a month, not 1%

The issues involved are not exclusive to airlines, therefore we don't need an expensive and exclusive choice of union (balpa).It's an old battle fought many times over already. There are plenty of us 'in house' who have some experience in this area already.

Mtg Friday?
 

Just a quick question.
How were we informed of this meeting? - I have had nothing to let me know.
Then again, I've been off for a while - (Shock related stress dissorder ;-) )

Sorry guys but you have a problem with what most companies would regard as the normal employer/employee relationship. Normally a person is employed & for the work done they receive a payment, i.e., salary. If either side is not happy about the existing relationship then they can give notice to terminate the contract.

Your particular problem, in any pay negotiations of any sort, is that the above arrangement does not apply to Jet2. You have both captains (yes captains as well as first offiers) and first officers who have paid for their ratings and are subsequently in debt, via the company, to the tune of many thousands of pounds. Therefore the financial penalty for that person to quit is greater than receiving the pathetic and insulting offer that you have been asked to accept.

Now, I have recently flown with a number of blokes who have various degrees of experience on jet types other than the 737 or 757, e.g., Fokker 100, BAe 146, ex military, etc. etc. who have been offered but turned down employmewnt with Jet2. The reason: they were all being asked to pay for their own ratings (please remember that I am talking captains as well as first offiers and all experienced). When they, in my opinion quite rightly, told N.H. and R.L. to stuff their rotten 'job' offer, they were told that Jet2 charge for ratings because otherwise they wouldn't be able to compete with the other locos!

If this is true then you have two major problems in achieving a decent settlement. 1) The company simply does not have the money to pay you any extra whoever & however you choose to negotiate. 2) As you have altered the above mentioned employer/employee relationship you are part of the funding for Jet2. They have stated it, "we cannot compete with the other locos unless we charge our employees." As most reasonably experienced pilots now have other options than to pay for ratings with a bottom feeding outfit this source of revenue into the company has dryed up. They will have to claw it back from somewhere. Can you guess?

Good luck for tomorrow to all of the pilots flying for Jet2 who give a damn about standards, I mean it. :ok:

Oddskipper,
There are notices in the Manchester crewroom (and maybe elsewhere) re Friday's meeting. Nothing in the post or in the Advisory. Might be worth bringing your ID bearing in mind that the whole world knows about it and might turn up (not a criticism, Silverhawk).
Silverhawk,
I've resigned from BALPA twice over the years so I won't be joining again, and they probably wouldn't have me anyway. I already belong to the IPA/IPF - you have obviously discounted them, and I think I can understand why, but it might help us all if you could spell it out.
Re the T&G, £10 per month is fine with me but would they be interested in us? I can see positive advantages in having pilots and cabin crew under one roof, despite the supposed weaknesses identified above.

T&G
 

They certainly seem to be very interested in us at MAN, they've been hanging around collaring crew with info and application forms for a couple of weeks now.

Read on the 'Dual basing' thread there might be a "small tweak" to the sector pay in two weeks. :ok:

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you guys and girls.

Also, its not necessarily what BALPA do, but what they MIGHT do. BALPA is a great negotiating tool when dealing with management on an individual basis.

What is the revised sector pay rate?

nothing in writing yet.

My mate just texted me to say the sector pay has indeed been 'tweaked'.

Now there are 3 sector lengths, first sector still is 2 quid for f/o, with the addition of a 'middle' sector length which, wait for it.... pays £2.50... woopee doo... :eek:

Hardly any routes fall into the 'middle' sector length category, so again your management have :mad: you good and proper.

Still think you can get a deal without Balpa? Dream on you dreamers :p

So you can get everything that I admire, from the only union with ANY airline negotiating skills for less than your £9.32 T&G membership....and that for a captain. Care to comment? I am no BALPA recruiter, just a realist. If you want to improve your lot, you aren't going to do it with the cabin crew, or with the T&G....

Again, I wish you all well.

PP

Yes I care to comment.

As you've said the figures quoted are for year One. Very different reading after that.

I've been involved been Balpa in the past with an outfit that was not BA. Balpa had a chance to make a substantial difference but chose to decline because they would not have been sure of the outcome and their exposure to expense. SPINELESS.

Dividing the cabin crew from the flight deck is exactly what management want to see. The more you divide, the more you are able to conquer.

Yes, I agree the new proposition, and that is all it is, is pretty poor. Only because no-one was involved in negotiations. Now we are almost organised next year's arrangements will be more beneficial to the crew and accountable to the company.

Sorry, not sure I understand. An 'exposure to expense'? 'Not sure of the outcome'? Sounds like they didn't have a mandate from their membership to be sure of an outcome. As the Easy pilots have learnt, unite behind them and TELL THEM WHAT YOU WANT and then they can negotiate with some sort of authority. You guys would do well to read the easy thread which appears to be demonstrating what such a united front can achieve. Their latest offer appears to be a scaled 10%. Even as a scaled 10% (with a minor portion pensionable), it still appears to more than pay for the 1% that membership has cost them.......

PP

I am quite astounded by the revised pay given to us by management; I am also equally astounded at the response from the staff.

There was a lot of big talk on here a few weeks ago about ‘let’s unite and sort this out’, ‘I’ll get onto Danny and try and sort out a private forum for us all’. But a few shallow words at the meeting has put a stop to all that. We even applauded the man.

The sooner we all realise that its time to join Balpa the better, Easyjet have just received a 10% stepped pay rise which in effect means that we are falling even further behind our nearest rivals in respect of T&C’s. The management have once again sold us a fast one.

SEER posted:-

Still think you can get a deal without Balpa? Dream on you dreamers


How right he is, we are (myself included) a set of spineless weak dreamers who are just going to bend over and take time and time again. They have us boys and girls and they know it.

Ardacre
 

Waiting for a response from pprune admin regarding dedicated forum.

Union membership is steadily increasing with T&G. Nothing happens instantly. Instead of whinging on here play your part in the real world and join up.

The only way to avoid the same thing happening over and over again is to get organised. Forget what has just been done, we are as much to blame for allowing ourselves to be the victims.

I'm already in Balpa and am willing to join the TGWU, My point is that nothings going to change, the company has a history of this type of conduct towards its staff.

The management need a massive wake up call but it will take a herculean effort for us to achieve this. I don't think many have this kind of resolve because a lot of people are grateful for what Meeson and his team have provided them with.

Maybe its best to spend the subscriptions on paper and ink for Cv's because I believe things will never change. History proves this.

I do.... and I'm waiting for him to deliver a letter from Tfly inviting me for an interview! Santa wears blue these days I hear...... :ok: