BA recruiting - DIRECT ENTRY PILOT SCHEME
 

Just heard that BA are recruiting for their DIRECT ENTRY PILOT SCHEME

Take a look at

BA's website

Shame I cant apply!!:ugh:

From the BA website

Skills, Knowledge and Expertise:
Full UK issued JAA/CAA ATPL or Frozen ATPL.
You will need a first class flying record and a good level of physical fitness.
Demonstrable evidence of leadership, intellect, determination, reliability, high personal standards, motivation, flexibility, well developed customer service skills and teamwork.


My JAA ATPL was not issued in the UK, does this mean I cannot apply?

AD

You also need to be type rated on the A320, 744 or 777.

You will need a first class flying record and a good level of physical fitness.
Demonstrable evidence of leadership, intellect, determination, reliability, high personal standards, motivation, flexibility, well developed customer service skills and teamwork.

What utter tosh. We're just ordinary people flying an airplane for a living for Christ's Sake. Any of the above is total hyped up cr@ptaincy!
This is so very indicative of the bull!!!!! this industry has sunk into, dragging along with it the fun and cheer this job has ever had.
Today's aviation is just a chore precisely due to statements like that.
I've been flying long enough to know that none of the above is necessary, just be "normal", predictable, pleasant to your crew, fun loving, charming, accomodating - and you're just perfect for the job!

Their statement isn't even grammatically correct. Why can't BA even "demonstrate" that they can communicate properly in their own language?

This babble comes from every airlines' recruiting department. More scribblies trying to show how intellectually superior they are to pilots, I suspect.

Bet a case of poor grammar and !!!!!!!!! doesn't stop hoards of people applying though :suspect:

So you have to be experienced on type and intelligent but you are willing to go the bottom of a long seniority list!

The intelligence bit rules me out!

Anyone who is thinking about it needs to think very, very hard. The Airbus fleet is 'maxed' out....everyone working all the hours God sends. Promotional prospects are virtually NIL. ( not an exageration). Moral is low. Pension ain't what it used to be. Junior pilots get shafted by the bidding system, and end up working ALL the weekends. ( got children ? ). I'll say that bit again....ALL the weekends....except those that come with your leave.
As a BA pilot be prepared to take stick from all quarters....BA themselves, the press, the cabin crew, other airline crews, etc etc. Do not expect any status to come with the package. Be ready for the face to face confrontation with crew transport drivers. Do not expect any response to your end of day voyage reports, explaining delays due to other depts failures.
BA pilot management are dealing with many part time applications, unpaid leave requests, and employment references from other carriers. All from current BA pilots, looking to find a way back to normality.
Many recently joined DEP's are depressed, feeling that they have made a big mistake. Some have been and gone...all in a year...back from where they came.

Understand this...BA is not what it was. You will be expected to work very hard, at the expense of any private life you have. There are hundreds in the queue for a command, all qualified, able, suitable...and with years to wait. You will be many years behind.

Otherwise....well we're getting a nice shiny new uniform soon !! And I have a lot of time and respect for our dispatchers and engineers. All great people.

I am just making sure you are all aware. Find a BA pilot and ask!!

Best of luck to you all.:suspect: :suspect:

I forgot to mention the long, long days. Reorts at 5.30am onwards..10 hour duty day, getting to the hotel at 4pm ish. , up next day at 4.30 am ish and do it again..for a 3 or 4 day tour. Followed by another back to back, and if you're lucky get 3 days off...but sometimes only 2 or even 1. It's cumulative fatigue. I spend my days yawning on the flight deck, pushing away the most vile and disgusting offerings called crew meals.

cib - a very accurate posting.

The only plus side is roster stability, however, as previously mentioned you'll be working every weekend.

Also, 15 years to command!

Oh and no Final Salary Scheme pension. Just a minor thing!

But even after all that....people will apply, lots of people!.....Thats the way it will be. 'The Worlds Favourite Airline' :p

Expedite :ok:

15 years to short-haul command. Probably c.20 for a long-haul command. If you get the 777 it will be much like cib's posting but with jet lag.

I'll second the excellent advice: find a BA pilot and ask.

So why are you BA pilots still there then, if its so awful?

I've seen your rosters and your pay packets.

Lets compare....
I'm a relatively senior FO working for a charter airline.
I get no bid lines.
I get a guaranteed 2 weekends off a year.
I get 37 days off per year (7 days = 1 weeks leave), this includes allowance for bank holidays.
Our early starts start at 03:30z, which is actually a night flight.
We can start at 06:00z after days off.
We only get 8 days off per month, not the 11-13 you guys get.
My work pattern doesn't improve with seniority.
This month I have 15 flying days, which will be anything from 8 to 12 hour days, 7 days away from home and (so far) 14 roster changes this month alone. We don't get a hotel after the 12 hour shifts. If delayed we might work 16 hours and still we have to drive home.
I'm on the command list but time to command is looking like another 5-10 years at least.
I take home £1000 LESS per month than a 3 year BA ex-cadet, who presumably is on reduced salary anyway.

So, I have an idea. You think BA offer a rubbish deal and other airlines are better.

So let's say we swap jobs eh???

1) Mainly for the pension, which the new guys won't get (not entirely sure I will).

2) Because I worked bloody hard to get here and I don't want to go to the bottom of someone else's seniority list unless I have to.

Airbus Girl...

I don't think people are saying it's "awful". It's just not what some think it is....

When you fly with someone who has joined BA, and after <1 year is totally disillusioned, and wants to return from whence they came, it sums up to a seriously disadvantaged career. Earnings, seniority, domestic upheavals etc. Others give up a Command to do the same job in BA but in the RHS (i.e. P1 BMI A320 to P2 BA A320), and are as happy as Larry with the change.

Just research it properly - some don't. Sounds like you have...

From a non Flying section of BA can any of the pilots explain why on earth BA is reducing its manning levels by offering part time working then recruiting extra staff.

Is this just bad business or what?

Don't forget that as there will be no FSS for new guys this equates to 22.5% decrease in your overall package - the effect of the massive reduction of company contributions to your pension pot of gold. To new DEPs in the Charter business this may be an important factor in your thinking. Comparing what a current BA pilot gets to what you guys will get is not comparing apples with apples.:uhoh:

Airbus Girl

I just KNEW someone would take my post the wrong way. Today it was you. I certainly do not intend to compare and see who has it worse. Understand this.. my post was NOT a whinge.

It is a fact...everyone coming into BA from the charter companies has had a shock. Some have left again, and gone back to doing what you are. They didn't nesessarily find it harder or easier, but their previous employment gave better prospects and much more time with families.

Try to look at things from a different stand point for once.


Well that's me.

BA has to comply with EU employment directives. Look them up if you don't know what I mean.
The cost to BA if it didn't offer the part time contract would be to possibly lose the pilot. The cost implications to BA of replacing a capt are SEVERE. (10 years ago it was unheard of to see a BA capt. considering a move. Nowadays is different. Some have left already, others are looking at Easy Jet, Emirates, Ryan, etc etc. ).

Please everybody. My post is a heads up. Nothing more.
:ugh:

WtM,

I may be wrong but I think under current employment law, all large companies are required to offer part-time working to their employees. Whether or not they make it easy is a different matter.

HF

PS: Edited to say cib just beat me to it... ;)

My God, its not all that bad!...and I'm a junior Airbus FO.

Fair enough, it may not be as good a deal as ten years ago and okay as a cadet I don't have another airline to compare BA with in terms of working as flight crew - but this job is a damn sight more fun and pays a damn sight better than sitting behind a desk (after one year I now earn more than many BA line managers).

Yes the weekends (or lack of) is a pain in the arse and yes Heathrow can be a nightmare but the the variety of destinations, roster stability, masses of leave, 12-13 days off a month and a decent wage...with the prospect of an improving lifestyle with seniority kind of make up for the downsides. Please, please apply so I can get further up the seniority list!

Well thats me.

The only people getting part time at the moment are getting it for compassionate or childcare purpose. Everybody else who wants it (and thats lots) can take a running jump.

Airbus Girl

Perhaps you might to consider that when someone is junior on a fleet they get no bidlines either, just blind lines. They get no guaranteed weekends off per year. They will get 42 days leave per year (7 days = 1 week), but will have to take it in 7 or 14 day blocks booked up to 10 months in advance - no option to take a single day. Our earlies report from 0500Z at LHR, with pick ups downroute as early as 0310Z. We can also start at 0600Z after a day off. Also how can you only get 8 days off per month if you're only flying 15 days this month (compared to my 18)? Our work patterns don't necessarily improve with seniority either; more control of days off perhaps, and a few less earlies, but you'll work just has hard at the top as you will at the bottom, only not on the weekends. 8 to 12 hour days are equally routine, but I bet you won't be doing four sectors through LHR with a terminal change and 3 aircraft changes as well. 7 days in a row away from home? Not uncommon. I've got 13 nights away from home this month, and thats a light one. And no hotel for me either when I finish another 12 hours shift and have to spend 2 hours driving home and 2 hours driving back (seen how much it costs to live in the South East) to report 13 hours later. I'm still at least 5-10 years from command too. Plus I get to do this month in, month out, no slacking off and taking it easy in the winter season. 750 flying hours logged last year, almost double that time on duty.

Of course I do get well paid for it (eventually) and my roster rarely changes, but the guys I know who came from Airtours, Monarch and JMC all reckon they're working harder now than they were before so it's not all rosy.

Hand Solo:

I had it in my mind that the CAP371 (CAA rules) only allow 1 hour 30 minutes to drive to work?

Are you not breaking the rules every time you report for work?

Well that would be me and about half the flight crew in BA, along with a signifcant percentage of cabin crew who drive even further (Nottingham, Devon, Cornwall!). BAs guidelines are that you should live within 2 hours drive of work. I think CAP 371 has limits on how far you can travel on company time before its factored into your duty but I'm not aware it dictates how far/long you drive to work. Might be wrong though. Anyway, its taken me two hours to get to Central London from LHR!

Wow. Thanks for making me feel so much better about my job!

Ryanair.

I get 2 weekends off in every 7 weeks.

I have a guaranteed 12 days off a month.

Roster is 5 on and 3 off indefinately (except on 6 occasions a year when it can be reduced to 2 days off)

I can honestly say that I have had approx 3-4 roster changes in the last 6 months and not one overnight in the last 1 and a half years.

Oh... and had to wait 2 years for my command upgrade.

If what you say is true about BA you have indeed made me feel a lot more satisfied in my job!!

Thanks!!

SF

Part time - forget it, its for the ladies only.

Flasher,

It's spot on. Enjoy your command.

411A,

I think there is something in CAP371 about that. Not sure of the details. However, at LGW it takes the best part of 30 mins from the car park to our crew report so I'm not sure how that'll factor in. I've been to Crawley, I'm not in a hurry to live there! :E

Brilliant ploy lads, pretend it's a terrible place to work, no one applies and then BA will have to increase our terms and conditions, very well thought out.

There are some DEP's in the airline who moan, and they are well known, most people know that the grass certainly isn't greener else where. Some people will never be satisfied, full stop.

If you fancy it, give it a crack, don't listen to the DEP whingers.

Dont see the problem, i'm damned junior in the right seat of the 400. Always get a trip line so long as i'm not silly and that gives me much more flexibility than my previous companies like it or lump it roster. At least i have some choice, even with a blind line theres a seed that gives you some chance of a day off (400 only). I realise in present circs it will be 15 yrs to command but i'm taking home more than previous co would pay a skipper. (i even get to sit in the left seat sometimes!). That said, if i was looking at a command on a big jet within a few years, or over say 35 I would think twice before jumping, but its really not that bad.

Any new aircraft in the next 5-10 years will of course shorten command time radically.

Airbus Girl,

Do your self a favour and join easyJet. You can do either 50% 75% or 100% roster.

Rosters are fixed 6 on 3 off (soon to be 5 and 3 we hope). It's easy to plan days off 6 months in advance.

Great potential for command (3000 factored hours).

We have our own issues but doesn't every airline. It's nice to be in your own bed at night.

The son of a colleague of mine has just made it onto the B747 fleet after literally working his nuts off for 5 years on the 737.
He joined knowing that the airline was changing, and that there will probably be more than a few changes in the future.
However, he still gets paid more than the vast majority of his equals in other airlines and he gets a real buzz out of being able to say that he works for BA.
He also knows that he has a long way to go to get a command, but he's prepared to put the same effort into that as to the effort he did in getting his licences and subsequently the job with B.A.

Put all that into perspective ladies and gentlemen, cos there are hundreds of potential BA pilots like him out there, BA know that, and I suspect that so do you.

If you don't want it, they do.

The plus point is we might discourage the Lord Flasheart types.

If anyones sucessful, good luck and go -400 a, its great fun, b, i go 1 up the seniority list. Its a win win!

:cool: :cool:

Hallo,

In my little mind this thread is sort of trying to compare apples and oranges. I realize that we are talking about employers and that they do have things in common. But the question is 'how/what do we experience/like about our job'? Airline flying jobs/companies are different. Period.

I was one of those who wanted to join the national carrier, it was about the only thing that would do it for me. I got there and I still enjoy it. I have difficuties seeing myself retirering from some other carrier. I am looking to go elsewhere for awhile, but just temporarely.

On the other hand I know people(not many) who have never applied to my company. They chose a different path and are quite happy.

And that is the point. Be happy with what you do. Enjoy it now and try to figure out if you will enjoy it later. IE, can I see myself in this company 15 years from now? For me, I can.

And let me assure you, we have had, and still have, our difficulties. My work situation has changed dramatically in the almost 7 years I have had this job. Nothing is like it was when I started. Probably for the better actually as survival prospects long term were sort of hazy.

Anyway, this is how I approach this.



:cool: :cool: :cool:

Brgds,

Ramrise

Ramrise has a valid point. We are all different.
Hands Solo has explained graphically what you WILL be doing as a junior Airbus FO.
If you are OK with this, go ahead and apply. I hope you succeed.

It is most probably easier to deal with this sort of lifestyle when single with no home ties, children etc. Perhaps I should have aimed my original post at those who have an established position in another company, and have a family at home. There is more to give up ( eg current seniority ), and more to lose if it doesn't work. This is when the decisions get harder, and involve more people than just yourself. Thorough research into the position you are applying for is important, and at least now, you are all aware. Do not simply assume it's a breeze at BA. And be aware that the rules and lifestyles are different longhaul / shorthaul. Different criteria apply, and so junior 400 pilots have a little more control over rosters ( just a little ).

To all you guys in other companies...we know you can, and do, work hard too. I have many friends in the charters and regional airlines. Let's have some mutual respect for each other. We have all worked very hard to get our qualifications, and we are all good at what we do.
Say hello to another pilot on the RT one day, as he gives way to you on the taxiway.:O :ok:

cib, the way you spout forth, you could end up in management...

cib, you also posted - "Say hello to another pilot on the RT one day, as he gives way to you on the taxiway".

WHAT?

management...me..????????? not in a million trillion squillion years. NO NO NO NO. Not ever ever ever.
ARRGGGHHH.......... the thought of it makes me want to curl up and die.

Sorry if my post was not to your liking.
( guess you won't be saying 'hi' then. )

:hmm: :(

Been in BA 7.5 years and 75% part-time for 3 of them and I think it's great. Don't earn anything like as much as my full-time collegues but I have a fantastic quality of life. I work about 12 days in a normal (no leave) month. My point being, is that the company offers an employee the opportunity to choose the type of involvement with the company and the career path that you want after the initial "you get what you're given" for the first 4 to 5 years. I've never been afraid to make requests to management regarding days off / changes. They either say 'Yes no problem' or 'No can't do that for you' but they always explain why not and/or offer other suggestions. This sounds a lot better than some of my ex-forces collegues who work for BMI and Charter outfits. Of course, it's better to be a P1 than P2, but to be honest it's better to go skiing with the family 4 times a year because the flexible working opportunities in BA make it possible.

cib
I thought BA was offering part time working with few strings as part of FSAS or FSAS2 to reduce the head count?.
While i support this as it protects jobs and i believe 10% of flight crew are currentl on part time working ( as opposed to 0% in engineering where it was NEVER offered at all ) it still doesnt seem very good business sense to then recruit full time replacements.

From a non pilot perspective again - it takes many years to train an engineer fully and at considerable cost,BA would still be happy if we ALL left ASAP

As DBW points out part time has many benifits,from a BA business point of view though this strategy seems extremely flawed.

If an employee has children under the age of 6, they are entitled to apply to their employer for flexible working hours. This is a result of an EU directive of some 12 months ago.
The employer has to have good reason to refuse, and may have to present this reason at any tribunal.

The change is to the contract, and is permanent.

In the case of most, flexible working means including the part time option.
This all applies to pilots.engineers....everyone. Just gotta have kids.!!

The majority of part time pilots, as far as I can see, have used this statutory right to secure part time contracts, rather than the business response schemes.

Hope this helps.:bored:

Good News - shame I cant apply either!

However anybody in the "know" know how many they are wanting to recruit? Doesnt seem to be mentioned anywere.

Jinkster

Numbers are.....4-500 pilots required over the next 3 years. ( source- BALPA )

Applicants with 500hrs turbo-prop for Airbus fleet (A321's arriving Oct '04 ), or 1500hrs Long Haul fleet.

Short Haul DEP starting salary £40,500pa + guaranteed expenses = approx. £50,700pa

Up this figure by a couple of thousand for Long Haul.

You might start at 0600L SH , but there's no 'night flying' !!

...and anyway, the golf courses are quieter mid-week.


:ok: