Www

It is an academic, irrelevant question I'm afaird.

If you wish to assess MPS schemes between companies, only 1 thing matters - the E'er contribution rate, and potentially the required E'ee rate to get that. Thereafter it's down to the markets / investment regime / latest Govt ideas / Annuity rates, all unknowns but common to all MPSs.

NoD

Wow!

Never seen such a lot of bickering amoungst what would usually probably be a bunch of well educated fairly well balanced people.

One person has said it exactly right....

You should ALL be politicians!!!

Surely it's simple.....

You want a job and you've got the lot.....apply.

If your happy where you are, like the dole queue, or your job not in flying.....don't apply.

However......

Last thing we need in BA is any more people who DON'T want to work for BA. We need people who are in it 100% and wanting it to succeed for everyone.

Those not having THAT qualification need not apply.

:(

Evening everybody,

I work for Air France and have no intention whatsoever to apply to BA. But, please, would anyone explain something? From reading the posts, I understand that you can join BA and become, let say, a 747-400 f/o straight away. Am I right? If so, don't BA pilots already in the place have a say about it? It wouldn't be possible with AF. That is why I am a bit puzzled. If you join AF you start as a f/o on A320 as well as at the bottom of the seniority list. The reason for that is that you are paid more on a 747 than a A320. Is it not the case with BA?

Luc

Ba has a seniority based pay structure it is not type related.

I have listed the pay on about page 8 of this thread take a look.

There is a difference in pay between between long haul(747and 777),medium haul(767and757), and short haul (737andA319,320,321).

As you will see from the scales it is not a large amount .

All pilots start at the bottom of the scale and go up one step at a time once a year,the top step is at 24years in BA.

When you become a captain you change scales at the step point you are at when you get 4 rings.

It is therefore possible to allow a few direct entry copilots to go on the 777 or 747.

BALPA would not be in favour of a large number of new recruits going on the 777 or 747 but as far as I know there is no agreement which prevents BA from doing so, a guess might might be a max of 20 of the 120 places available at the moment, being acceptable to the BA pilot force /BALPA .

Howerver if all 120 went on the 747 or 777 I think the pressure on the Union to say No would be great.

I say total 120 because it was in BA NEWS on friday as the number BA was looking for at the present time.

Hope this answers your question.

"BALPA would not allow a large number, a guess might might be a max of 20 of the 120 places available at the moment.'

BALPA have no say in where new entrants are posted. BA has every right to post DEPs to whichever fleet they want and BALPA recognise this.
This has caused unhappiness in the past as LGW SH (and LHR SH for that matter) have seen new entrants go straight to LH.

When it comes to bidding for a different seat / fleet everyone's seniority is based on Date of Joining (and not being frozen etc) so they are at no advantage there.

Can't belive I'm contributing to this thread - as always it's full of non-BA people proclaiming they know how BA works.

Only a small proportion of BA guys admittedly, however the discord, rudeness, contradiction etc DO show what sort of an outfit we are.

If luc is still around, be interesting to know if AF is as divided and rancorous.

See Jet A1 going up again, and BA now starting a ticket surcharge to cover it - here we go again.....:\

I don't belieeeeeeeeve it.

Go to the interview, get passed it, have a look at the contract (which will mention pensions and everything else) if you don't like it, don't sign it and go and work for Emirates or someone else. Get a grip !

Now Super Stall about this monitiored approach....... only joking

Minor correction to www - this is not so at LGW. You go to the bottom of the seniority ladder there on command.

I still get confused at the way the non-handling landing pilot can become the handling AND the landing pilot early just by saying VISUAL - it seems to short-circuit the handling non-landing pilot's job, because he goes straight to becoming the non-handling non landing pilot who will now NOT fly a missed approach - even though he makes the same challenges, but for some reason now receives no response.

The other query relates to the balked landing where the handling go-round pilot becomes the non-handling pilot as P2 even though he should be PF for that manoeuvre.

Maybe I'll get it right eventually, particularly if I can get all these BA secondees to stop talking about how much better pilots they are than the rest of us.......particularly our ex-military guys......:8

"Minor correction to www - this is not so at LGW. You go to the bottom of the seniority ladder there on command."

How did you work that one out BOAC? That's not the way it works. Can you expand / explain?

Well, QN, cannot say I am over interested in this, but unless it has changed since it happened to me and all the other ex Dans obtaining command, we went initially to pay-point 1 on the Captain's scale, and then when BA/BALPA found no-one was bidding out of LHR to LGW for command they raised the bottom pay-scale to 5, still putting us below our 'correct' seniority. Feel free to correct this if it has changed. I suspect it has not been 'noticed' as all bidders into LGW are so junior?

Anyway, I'm out of there:D

Obviously things were handled differently for ex-Dan guys. For anyone transfering over from LHR, or gaining their command at LGW, things have always been as I described.
I think people, how ever junior would have 'noticed' being put on PP1.

People with spurious agendas are forever trying to slate LGW, it gets a bit boring after a while.

As you say - you're out if there (enjoy it:ok: ), and I'm outta here 'cos I don't like perpetuating this type of thread.

Tandemrotor

…So could you if you cared to look...

I assure you I’ve looked very hard.

I have my own benefit statement from the pension fund in front of me as I write this, showing I crystallised as a line captain, aged 50, on the top pay point, after 29 years service. The projected pension is well under six figures.

…I most certainly CAN substantiate my claim that crystallised pensions can, and do, pay out well in excess of £100,000 per year…

So you say.

I challenge you, once again, produce your figures to show how you arrive at this figure of well in excess of £100,000 per year or have the decency to admit you are wrong and withdraw your exaggerated claim.

…Everyone should expect to retire at the age stated on their contract WHEN THEY JOINED…Is that somehow unfair?…

There have been many changes made to the contract I signed in the 1970s, some to my benefit, many not. I am obliged to accept them all, whether or not I approve of them.

By your logic, I should not avail myself of paternity leave, I should instruct my widow not to apply for the increased death-in-service benefits, and I should always wear a suit and tie whilst on staff travel; all changes that have come about since I signed my contract.

It is highly unrealistic to expect that a law, which comes into effect in two years time, should not be taken advantage of by any pilot who joined BA before 2006.

It is highly unrealistic to expect the entire, current pilot workforce to retire at 55 when entitled to remain to 60 or beyond.

This particular change will apply to all pilots equally, and I see no reason why each pilot should not be able to make an individual decision on this matter, without being subjected to your petty abuse.

…It would seem from previous comments, that I am not the only one struck by the smug attitude of those who seek to keep their 'snouts in the trough' as long as possible, whilst having no concern whatever for new joiners…

You deliberately seek to mix two separate issues, those of retirement age and new entrant pensions, and ascribe views to me which I have not expressed and do not espouse.

The issue of inferior pension terms for new entrant pilots is of considerable concern to me, as it is to most of my age group. When BALPA take a view on the best course of action to try to secure a FSS pension for my new colleagues, they will have my full support.

Your attempts to suggest otherwise are frankly beneath contempt.

I have, in my time in BA, stood on a picket line and watched several pilots cross it to go to work. It was sadly true that most of those who did were the very ones who had shouted the loudest beforehand about the need for action.

I trust, should the need for action arise, that you won’t fall into this category.

Regards

Bellerophon

It's nice to see someone posting something factual and sensible on this thread.
Congrats Bellerophon, a pleasure reading your measured postings. A pity there are not more of the sane and sensible majority of BA pilots who actually do post on here, the Hand Solos and Tandem Rotors give a biased, delinquent, rabble-rousing and deliberately contentious impression of what BA pilots are like.
Great to see someone who can parse in a grammatically correct fashion too, and can also separate out the rubbish when the usual attempts are made to blur the truth.
Mind you, I suppose a rumour forum invites abuse, nonetheless, thanks.
I vote this thread to be locked henceforth.

pilots arguing
 

Captain Jumbo

Evening,
About the arguing and so on between pilots, do not worry it is exactly the same in Air France (We have 5 different pilot's unions!!!). Being new on this forum, it actually strikes me how similar the issues are.
About the particular point of direct entry though, from what you said, we (AF pilots) seem more "protected" as no one can jump the queue ( all secured by the unions)! Having said that it might simply be because it makes a hell of a difference as we are paid on a weight-speed basis ( means that the faster and the heavier the plane is the more you are paid).No need to say that people love the 747-400 and are lookig forward to the A380!

My own experience...

Based on the 737 LGW-I mainly just go to work, fly to the SOP's (which as Hand S says do change) and go home again. When things get fun (=difficult) then you just have to make the best of it between the two of you. It ain't difficult in BA, I imagine that things could get harder in other carriers out there!

Right to left seat changes mean (in my case anyhow) that you will stay on the same pay point, and move onto the Capt scale.

I like my job. I am looking forward to flying with the new DEP's (if I move onto the bus...) They WILL have my support when it comes to final salary pension.

'They WILL have my support when it comes to final salary pension.'

That's the only attractive thing left about BA, lets hope you keep it or some thing close to it.

I have to agree with a lot of what Yeovil said.

I am a 4 year DEP on the airbus/LHR, I've worked for other airlines before BA and its not all its craked out to be ...

Think very carefully before jumping ship ..... if you are say 35 joining BA on current figures its unlikley you will ever see ANY command. You will be around 3500, LHR shorthaul commands start around 1700 and gatwick 2000. Thats at least 1500 pilots to leave ahead of you, and with 5 years of no movement about to start due retirement to change to 60 it will be very sole destroying.

Another major issue in BA is that seniority doesn't only effect commands, BUT dictates your lifestyle. You WILL work every weekend being junior, you WILL do all the naff trips, you WILL work more days per month than more senior colleauges etc ...

Think VERY VERY VERY carefully WHY you might be leaving a smaller outfit to come to 'dinosaur BA'.

The SOP's issues are another topic in themselves ! But you get used to anything eventually, but it does hurt to know just how simple SOP's can be with other airlines, sadly many in BA have never seen anything else and think the SOPs are normal ... why, oh why does the non handling pilot operate the reversers ? If can be compicated BA will do it that way !!!

noblues, would you leave?
Who did you work for before, and, given the chance again, would you have joined BA?

Airbus Girl ---->

would you leave? NO not in my position, having joined in my mid 30's 4 years ago I am not badly placed as a short haul FO re. seniority (about 2/3rd up on the airbus list), so get my choice of work and days off etc .... although that will change if I go say 777 or 747 ....



given the chance again, would you have joined BA? Uuuhhhmm !!!! I could have been a Capt. for the last 3 years with my previous employer .... its a difficult question to answer and one I often ask myself ! (even after 4 years with BA).
In short ... I miss a smaller company with 'simple SOP's' where the word 'airmanship' meant a lot (not FCO's Flight Crew Orders in BA where airmanship is almost a dirty word ) .... BUT, BA does offer stability, good pay, stable roster (bliss!),retire at 55 with a good pension (not the case for new joiners), lots of types to fly, huge route structure, very strong BALPA council .... so in short I wouldn't leave BUT do have friends who have been in BA and now gone to say Easy for commands after only a few years .....

To have joined BA 6-8 years ago mid 30's would have been great, you would see a shorthaul command very quickly and the carrot of a 777 or 744 command would be within reach before you retire .... but all that is not the case now .... the retirement bulge is over, the retirement age will be pushed to 60 (causing a 5 year stagnation period), BA has closed all the regional bases for early commands (even LGW has become very senior due recent pay deal); if your <30 then YES join its worth it (but only with a final salary pension) .... at the end of the day BA doesn't bond on types so you can always throw in the towel and go pastures new .... but >say 30 think carefully about seniority with view lifestyle and very long term command prospects ....

I think noblues has hit the nail on the head. If you have time on your side, BA is still a good company to fly for. ( But maybe not to work for) On the aviation side, the flying, routes, fellow pilots are great), but the rest of the bull!!!! is rapidly tipping the balance for a lot of us....

I have read through all 13 pages so far and some of the postings are quite emotive. So if you are still here (must be about 14 by now) then I have some less inflammatory comments.

Firstly, whether or not you apply to BA is dependent on your current circumstances. You have to appreciate that a career in BA is entirely due to your seniority. This is affected by the demographics of the pilot workforce at the time you join, and the age at which you started.

The younger you are when you start then the better your career. By the time you are 35 then (assuming you are established elsewhere), it would be a less attractive proposition. With the current situation in BA (no further expansion, retirement at 55, and few leavers), then those 35 and over are not going to get a long haul command, although a short haul one is likely. Those over thirty might get a long haul command, eventually, those under 30 will, and those under 25 will do very nicely.

The biggest benefit BA can offer is the final salary pension scheme, it is very good, but is no longer available to new starts. So if you are considering joining then please make additional pension plans.

A lot of the comments made in other postings are perfectly valid. It just depends on your background and expectations.

BA does not recruit the "best" pilots, but the "best fit" for the organisation. The SOP's and FCO's are written so that the worst pilot in the organisation can operate safely. You do not have to be ace of the base, average is more likely to get you a job.

More important is your ability to fit into the BA culture (and it is very distinct). You have to be primarily a conformist who will apply the SOP's and FCO's rigidly, and be able to enforce these standards in yourself and others. Naked ambition will not help, you have to appreciate you will be doing a dull, repetitive job, without the chance for promotion, for a very long time. Stoicism and patience are handy virtues to have.

"Characters" need not apply as they seek "stable" personalities, anyone familiar with the work of Myers-Briggs will understand the personality profile required.

Your expectations of the company will also colour your subsequent impressions. Do not expect nirvana, it is a company like any other, with many problems. The glossy brochures and adverts are just marketing speak. The reality is very different.

Standards at BA are no different to those in the majority of UK owned/operated airlines.

Some people have a very good life, others less so, again, it is primarily down to your position in the seniority list. The further up it you go the more money, less work, more control, better standard of living you will have. How long it takes and your attitude will decide your outlook.

My suggestion is that you think carefully, research the company, speak to more than one BA pilot, and apply if its what you want.

Worst case, you get in, get a free rating (no bonding either), then take your qualifications elsewhere. Just don't give up a good position with an existing employer and expect overnight success within BA.

Its a long seniority list full of relatively young people. Nothing ventured , nothing gained.

Harry :cool:

A new future
 

I read today that in the U.S. they are gearing up to let UAVs fly in CAS under IFR. For all the chat about the future regarding seniority and retirements, I think the pressing problem in 10-15 years time will be whether the airlines will move towards non-piloted airliners controlled by ATC ground controllers. It has economic/security/benefits and it will obviously require education of pax to accept it.
The technology to do this is here today and I believe that after 2030ish that professional pilots will become extinct. Make the most of it while you still can.

Excellent post Harry.

1) Pilotless Planes would be more expensive to operate than hiring a couple of pilots.

2) Someone still has to sit and control these aircraft

3) No current or planned airliner is capable of being converted to pilotless operations without punatitive conversion and certification costs.

4) Its a terrorists wet dream.

5) A large EMP event would render all airborne airliners uncontrollable (range 350nm radius of - say - Paris) and such capability will be in non-state hands within 20 years.

Cheers


WWW

I'd like to join BA. So all of you who are currently there and have nothing better to do than slag off your company, please leave and let me, and many others, have your jobs.

Unfortunately, thanks to the likes of Ryan and Easy, being a pilot is far less glamorous than it used to be with crappy rosters, an unstable lifestyle, long hours etc etc etc. If you are really fed up with it, go get a job driving a train on the underground. You'll earn far more there, have a better lifetsyle, and will appreciate the sun a lot more after a day in darkness.

For those of us who are now resigned to the fact that we're going to have a career of long hours, nights/days away from home, and all the other cr*p that comes with the job, I know there are still plenty of us who would like to accept the cr*p that a job with BA will bring.

Please don't complain too much about your job - I'd give pretty much anything to have a nice uniform and fly for a company that is well respected by passengers and other companies world-wide.

Actually er82

I wonder if you can see the irony in your post?

BA command time can be a matter of luck and timing. Fleets and bases may be unpopular and then there is a change, usually for financial reasons when there is restructuring.
EOG was like this for a while: command time could be as little as a year from joining BA. Those who wanted an early command went for it and are probably very glad they did, now that there is a much longer wait.
So, if you are thinking of joining as a DEP from another airline, go for it! First officers get treated much better than in many other outfits, that's for sure. Things like being able to taxi the aeroplane, and a complete reversal of roles when it is your leg. You are also treated like a sentient being, instead of a rather thick dog, as happens outside BA (not in all airlines, but certainly in some). Everything is fair, too. No Mr Nastys in the sim making up silly scenarios or putting the pressure on just for the fun of it. BA's training is second to none.
Good luck!

:ok:

"BA's training is second to none"

Bit pompous? BA has a good training department with excellent facilities is more like the answer - just like many other large carriers around the world!

I guess wheelbarrow hasn't had to endure BAs A320 groundschool then. The quality of that is about the only thing we all agree on on the schoolbus.

It appears that BA's A320 sim training for DEPs will now start in January 2005 ---very large amount of training (sim & line)scheduled for first 3 months of 2005.
All subject to change of course!

erm, not too sure about this one!

Preepy

might have changed already! Airbus now not going to LGW 737-500s staying a while longer, meanwhile 319 hulls being given back to airbus as 321s arrive!

2 days is a long time in BA

Still as they say that was todays plan

Advice for those who join us........

Firstly, welcome!

Secondly, when it's your sector, the PICUS is really PICUS, but please, please, remember that that is an opportunity to exhibit good CRM, too. Not an exercise in territorial pissing. If I listen to another 'older than me' DEP make some unilateral decision before my aghast jaw hits the floor, I'll start to get a reputation for being grumpy. There are a small minority of hard jawed ex-mil oldies who really get uptight that they're sitting next to a younger, more senior oik and their poor team skills attest to that.
My opinions are not propoganda or prejudice, I have now had the honour of flying with every ex-mil DEP on my fleet and nearly half are letting their jealousies affect the opinion others have of them.

You may ask "Perhaps Capt CEP is the sort that attracts such behaviour?"
I respond.
All my friends who are also Capts on the fleet feel the same.
All (bar one) of the co-pilots who do not have a military background do not act this way. Why's that?

Finally, If you do join, regardless of background, after the age of 35, you will end up an embittered whinger just like the rest of those who had too many years when they joined. Trust me. You will.

Well what a barrel of laughs it looks like working for Birdseed these days - Not.

One wonders just who is applying to join them at the moment? Are they all folks worried about the future of their current employer e.g. MyTravel?

If so its quite something that in just a few years the airline of choice has become the airline of sinking ship jumpers. I suspect the wheel may turn once again - IF management can sort things out and sack half of themselves.

Here's hoping.

Abeam...............don't you mean Bird!!!!!?

Wheel barrow wrote ;
First officers get treated much better than in many other outfits, that's for sure. Things like being able to taxi the aeroplane, and a complete reversal of roles when it is your leg. You are also treated like a sentient being, instead of a rather thick dog, as happens outside BA (not in all airlines, but certainly in some). Everything is fair, too. No Mr Nastys in the sim making up silly scenarios or putting the pressure on just for the fun of it. BA's training is second to none.

This, I'm sad to say is complete bollox.

Even the fleet (LH) newsletter recently said " Beware pilots with two stripes .. they will screw you up" How dare they treat F/O's in that way .
Typical pompous patronising arrogant " head up arse" BA.

For prospective applicants ; you will wear two stripes for 4 years ( even if you have just given up an airbus or 75 command with Midland / Airtours etc . ) You will , sadly, be treated like a freaking boy scout .

Shuttleworth is bang on the money.

Capt Cadet Entry.

The name says it all.

What absolute twaddle. If only you were a tenth as talented as those you choose to berate you'd be doing very well indeed.

LF

Damn, can't resist biting:eek: ....

I read the previos post and one name sprang straight to mind, and it was from His Holiness, LF none the less.

We are honoured by His presence.

And there was me thinking that the most dangerous thing in aviation is the pompous pr@t who thinks He is God's gift!