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M.Mouse
"On the negative side we have so much internecine jealousy, especially between pilots " Can you explain that? Thank you. |
Yes, the sentence has to be read completely.
especially between pilots and a notable proportion of cabin crew amongst others |
Time to command in BA is as long as a long piece of string, very long.
With the change in the retirement age post 2006 it will add 5 to 10 years to the 10 to 15 it is now. No fancy pension any more and no big starting salary. No new aircraft deliveries in sight just cutbacks. They are just covering themselves by starting the pool again just in case they dont pull out of gatwick. The Prince of Darkness is just covering his rear BEWARE. EasyJet seems a better bet. |
WhoopWhoop Whoops,
You may be right with the first part of your post, but EasyJet seems a better bet. Sorry, yes there may be quick time to command with easy, but nothing else is better ! |
WhoopWhoop Whoops
Quote "With the change in the retirement age post 2006 it will add 5 to 10 years to the 10 to 15 it is now." This is state pension related ( or Correct me ) ,company pensions FSS or MPS pay out on agreed dates and thats not affected. expedite_climb I wouldnt worry too much about BA pilots joining Easy,things are too good for that:D :D |
Yes I am out of the loop with EasyJet
But I am in the loop with BA I did 24 years to command and I started from school!! Thats why I am still here.. Our current retirement age of 55 will change after 2006 by law so the old timers like me who were due to retire 2007+ will probably stay. The rewards were always at the end of the rainbow in BA, you have to be young at the start. BA has in the last 10 years taken in large numbers 1000 + of young cadets under 30 some at 23, the early ones were lucky and got quick commands after me. But there are a lot of older cadets and later direct entry pilots that do not have the seniority relative to age. They at best can expect to be junior captains on shorthaul or permanent longhaul copilots. In short if you are over 30 forget BA. To add to this you have to say that BA is in trouble our own Chief Exec has said so. Costs have to be cut etc. I feel in a few years Easyjet will have forced us to contract shorthaul, we will never be able to compete with our massive overheads which are not related to or under the control of the pilots. We have dumped the final salary pension scheme for new pilots, and anybody joining now will be the first of the low contributary style pension group. True the salary at the top is the best in the uk industry with GROSS salary incl everything BEFORE DEDUCTIONS of about 11000 to 12000 a month. BUT THATS THE TOP AND AS GOOD AS IT GETS. We have a longevity pay structure so you have to have done more than 25 years AND be on a senior captain on the 777 or 747 to get that sort of money. Most DEPS and older cadets will NEVER GET THERE!!!!!!! The copilots and captains on shorthaul get similar money to every other operator like Easy Jet. Hence my warning BEWARE of Pots of Gold you cannot reach. It is not the nirvana that everyone thinks. |
WhoopWhoop Whoops
Please let me know what you mean regards 2006,i have no information that legislates company schemes at 2006,i thought your current agreements stands and i am genuinely surprised to hear otherwise. What does surprise me considering the world climate is BA hasn't approached BALPA with a new contract arrangement for its flight crews along the lines of the cabin crew arrangement,i know you are having a sharp intake of breath here but if they offered the current crews 10% extra to agree a new contract for starters along the lines of EOG it would pay for itself in the future - i cant believe it hasn't been suggested. I guess what a lot of us here are asking is just what is a " Lot of money " in relation to the job > shoot me down here but i am amazed and somewhat shocked to learn some of the crews are getting 150K - that's serious money |
Well you
In 2006, European legislation will come into force that prevents discrimination on age. My understanding is that companies will not be able to enforce compulsory retirement on age alone - ie if as a pilot you are fit enough to pass a class 1 medical and competent enough to pass simulator checks etc, you cannot be forced to retire. In BA (where pilots have a compulsory 55 retirement age) this may well see that restriction having to be removed, and flight crew being able to continue on beyond 55 to who knows what age. It is likely that a sizeable proportion of pilots would choose to extend beyond 55. For arguments sake if 50% go on to 60, then on average it will take 2.5 yrs longer for DEP's to get command. If the average pilots' length of service increases from 30 to 33 years, then is will take about 15-16 years to achieve a command, hence if you sign on as a 38 yr old ex RAF guy, you may not achieve a command until mid 50's. |
I see you have an answer to the retirement question during 2006 it will be illegal to force anyone to retire possibly up to 75.
To a pilot this means a maximum of 65 ie the licence limit. This will raise the time to command. The longevity pay scale system in BA is often not appreciated. pay point 1 to pay point 28. 1 point rise per year of service starting from when you join. This is unaffected by promotion to command you just change scales at your current point. In BA we have a pay point 1 for a 777 747 capt. If the black death hit the pilot workforce you would get a 777 747 command immediately but you would have to wait 28 years to get 144000 incl allowances gross etc. Their is a big difference in pay over those 28 years never mind the promotion aspects. This means the big money only comes at the very end of your career and only a few guys get it for a short time and then retire. Its all smoke and mirrors. The benefit was that your pension was calculated on the best 2 years earnings hence it gave a big uplift to the pension before you left. However that is not available to new pilots who will not have access to that scheme. Their pension will be calculated on what they put in over their whole period with BA it will be substantially less for the reasons I have just given. And you still have to put the years in. Potential joiners take note. |
Whoopwhoop.
What are you talking about? The BA pay scale does not go from 1 to 28 as every REAL BA pilot will know. The pension issue is not yet cut and dried, BALPA have yet to issue a ballot but have promised that the members will be consulted. BA SH out earn Easy by some way. I'm BA LHS and my brother is Easy LHS. Whilst I never take home less than £5k a month (much more with draft) his take home is nearer £4k. We both work hard, as do all pilots these days. I certainly feel less tired than when on the -400. The starting pay is much better now for new joiners than it has ever been. The basic has been increased and the variable pay is no longer tied to seniority as much as it used to be. However I agree that the time to command is going to be very long. Assuming a retirement age of 55 nobody who joins BA who is older than 30 will ever get a LH command. The wait for a SH command will be AT LEAST 15 years. (Unless LGW comes good with the 'bus expansion). But that makes perfect sense, if the average carrer is 30 years and 50% of crew are Captains then on average it will take 15 years to get a command. If the CRA goes up then it could be much longer. But things always change in this biz. |
WhoopWhoop Whoops.
Emphasis on the last word I think! I'd me most gratified if I ever made it to the dizzy heights of Pay Point 28. Having said that, I'm only planning to stay for 31 years. :E |
OK guys I havn't checked the number of steps in the scale recently so perhaps someone can advise me . I simply don't need to at the top.
It used to be 28 but I agree it might be as low as 25 now!!!!!! Talking about take home pay is a waste of space everybody's deductions tax etc are different. I am right in my figures and that much I know. The pension scene is a dead duck BALPA has done nothing about it and I do not see the BA pilots going on strike for the new hires to get a special deal,relative to other BA staff. My group didn't pull the plug when NAPS the replacement for APS came along with its worse benefits and I do not see the current pilots doing the same for some new guys so they can get a better deal now that NAPS has been given the chop. Each generation has looked after itself for one reason or another. I wish people would say it as it is. and not try to slant the facts. |
Whoopwhoop Whoops
You seem very certain that 2006 will bring continued jam for you! Maybe it will, and maybe it won't (there are frequently exemptions from EU law for the transport industry) Let us see where we stand in 2006 eh! Personally, if it comes to a vote, I will vote NO. (even though I am already a shorthaul captain!) People like you are far too smug for my liking, and deserve whatever it was you signed up for. Isn't it enough? Why do you think you deserve more? YOUR seniors retired at 50 didn't they? Got a crystallised pension? |
Guys,
Surely if the COMPULSORY retirement age at 55 is lifted, BA must still honour your terms, allowing you to retire at 55. I'd say a large proportion of the pilots would be better off taking the pension and then getting jobs elsewhere too, like many have in the past? Don't you think? Of course if you were a late joiner and havent made the dizzy heights of PP 28 or 25 or whatever then that may not apply ! |
WWW
Something doesn't ring true with you, everybody knows how many steps there are in the pay scale and and you still have it wrong...the number is neither 25 nor 28. |
"You will need a first class flying record and a good level of physical fitness.
Demonstrable evidence of leadership, intellect, determination, reliability, high personal standards, motivation, flexibility, well developed customer service skills and teamwork." I agree with skyclamp, what a load of bull ! typical ba crap ! "do you have a rating ?" "can you fly an aeroplane ?" "are you capable of having a beer with the lads ?" would be more appropriate, why do they always go down this silly road? they are wanting fully type rated pilots !! "let's all sit in a room and build something 'purposeful' with lego !!" :p |
m.mouse
it is a fact that some of our senior long haul chaps are so far removed from anything that goes on below them ( and, for that matter, don't care ), that it could be that some do not know all details about pay points etc. They're more than happy where they are, and don't give a t--- about anyone else. ( why should they ? ). toon. So don't apply then. We'll manage without you.:ok: |
They would have taken an interest in the pay restructuring deal last year and would, therefore, been well aware of the pay scales and their place on them!
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From Tandem rotor
"People like you are far too smug for my liking, and deserve whatever it was you signed up for" I quite agree.. Well said. |
cib, i,m to old to apply and never have, if i had my time again i may well have gone the ba route. my point was not to criticise anything to do with pay stuctures, working hours etc etc but to highlight that when you do go for an interview you are 'scored' on everything from how you stand to how you wipe your bottom ! by people who are not qualified in any way to judge you on how you make your professional decisions. Pointless nonsense !
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Tandemrotor. You suggest that there may be a deferral of the Oct 2006 retirement legislation. Very unlikely. We signed up for this in the early 1990s. The completion date was 2002. When France and UK failed to meet that date, the other EU countries at the Berlin Summit gave us a final one-off exemption until Dec 2006 to comply. Failure to act by Dec2006 will now involve an automatic case at the European Court which can in theory mean unlimited fines. Individuals will also be able to sue the UK government for failure to act in accordance with EU law. EU law counts for more than BA Balpa ballots in this case.
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I agree WWW is a bull!!!!! artist.
Now for a serious question on the impact of the European Law on outlawing discrimination on the grounds of age or disability: I am an SFO with BA. Progression up the seniority list is based on either expansion, or retirement. That is, when one person retires, we all move up the list by one number. When I joined the company I could reasonably expect to retire at age 55, having achieved a command at some suitable stage. One could "plan" a career on this basis. As I understand it, the Legislation must be in place by late 2006. BA has not said when it will raise the retirement age, but JH has said he expects it to happen in about September of 2006. If things stand as they are today, I would have the seniority for a jumbo command in 2007 or 2008. If the retirement age is lifted, and a large number of pilots remain on their current types past age 55, there will be no progression up the seniority list, for up to 5 years. Will I have any grounds for legal, or any other action? BALPA seem to have their collective heads in the sand, trying to avoid taking either side. Any thoughts? |
BALPA seem to have their collective heads in the sand, trying to avoid taking either side. Rod Eddington was reported to have said words to the effect that BA will not make a decision until midnight December 31st 2005 otherwise they will be sued by one disgruntled party or another if they act preemptively. Your grievance that you made plans based on the conditions prevailing at the time of your employment is understandable but really doesn't bear scrutiny. Life changes and sometimes you win sometimes you don't. I took out a mortgage in the 80s when interest rates were well below 10% knowing I could afford it. When interest rates peaked at over 15% I couldn't. Funny thing was the government didn't believe that the disruption of my plans was sufficient reason to lower interest rates again. What it will probably mean is that you have to work a few years longer and will have had to wait a few years more for command. |
If things stand as they are today, I would have the seniority for a jumbo command in 2007 or 2008. If the retirement age is lifted, and a large number of pilots remain on their current types past age 55, there will be no progression up the seniority list, for up to 5 years. BALPA seem to have their collective heads in the sand, trying to avoid taking either side. Will I have any grounds for legal, or any other action? |
I find it slightly amusing that someone should be worried about whether or not their command will come at a particular time, when what they should really be contemplating is whether or not they will actually be employed at all at that time.
(see deserting rats thread) |
You find it amusing? Nice chap.
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Diesel, sorry to have sounded callous, maybe amused was not a good choice of words.
What I meant is that I find it hard to believe someone worrying about when his LH command will happen when the writing on the wall says he'll be lucky to still be employed at all. |
Snooky
Fair enough.Computers can make things seem harsher than intended. As an interesting aside I just heard our Longhaul chief pilot (or general manager as they are called now) has resigned to go to Emirates. Should us BA types start to worry? |
Worry? Nah...... The Guy had 18 months to retire, He was never going to make Flight Ops Director, He's already got a big pension. He's off to enjoy some time in the sun at a less 'battle weary' company.
Sound good to me:ok: |
I work for BA as a llicensed Engineer and currently halfway through my self funded training. Do the BA pilots here think that somebody in my present position will have a chance of joining internaly if as people assume, they will have a job getting the right kind of people. I have been with the Airline for 15 years and although we all moan i happen to think its ok.
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Do the BA pilots here think that somebody in my present position will have a chance of joining internaly if as people assume, they will have a job getting the right kind of people. I have been with the Airline for 15 years and although we all moan i happen to think its ok. Good Luck! Although, if you are passed 30, then I'd advise forgetting it. What doesn't seem to have come up in any of this thread is the fact that 2006 legislation or not- the retirement 'bulge' ends very soon. In a couple of years time the retirements will be running at just 30 or so a year - for a very long time, not the current rate of nearly 200 a year. I was given the retirement figures projected forward until my own retirement in 15 (20?) years time. Despite being only 33 when I joined, my seniority (sic) number when I retire will be around 770. i.e. When I retire there will still be about 20% of the pilot workforce senior to me! To put this in perspective, I might - repeat might - be eligble for a long-haul command in around 10 years time - that will be 17 years in the right hand seat with this company alone! And it gets better! Anyone joining today will be behind all of the 'youngsters' that came across from CityFlyer a few years back, not to mention the even younger 'youngsters' that were cadets. All of these people are in your way now - and will be in your way when you retire! Unless you too are a 'youngster' Remember - in BA - seniority is EVERYTHING! Just in case the message isn't clear. SENIORITY IS EVERYTHING!!! Right, I'm hoarse from the shouting, but I wish somebody had emphasised to me how important seniority is in BA before I took the plunge - I may still have jumped - but I certainly wouldn't do so now. (Remember, I was 33 when I joined, if you're a youngster you may be OK) Cheers, Underdog |
To reaffirm that, I'm 30 with 25 years to do, having done 7. Assuming the new legislation didn't happen, I would retire at 55 with seniority of around 100. If I go on to 60, which seems increasingly likely, I may make it into the top 40. Either way, I'm likely to be a Captain (either longhaul or shorthaul) for around twenty years (assuming we stay in business). There are a great number of people who are the same age and considerably senior to me or younger with similar seniority. We will all be Captains for a very long time, therefore anyone joining today had better be either a) very young or b) have no aspirations to a BA command.
Sorry, but that's just the way it is. That notwithstanding, if you are prepared to accept the above, the money is pretty good, rosters are set in stone (more or less) and as you get more senior as a First Officer, your lifestyle will improve tremendously (choice of trips/days off) and current T&Cs are good, although the company are doing their level best to erode those (not that it's any different anywhere else). Just don't mention the pension. |
BA staff
Rocketboots,
I'm ex-BA staff currently in training too - check your PM. Best regards, Desk-pilot |
Gentlemen I am not a bullsh...r.
The information I have given was broadly accurate and to enable candidates to evaluate the problems of joining BA when you are approaching 30 or 30+. I have checked our agreements and the number of increments are 24 not 25 or 28 as I said earlier, that was the only error. It would seem to be news to many BA pilots that the retirement age will soon have to change by law. To those interested watch out for the white paper this October. The legislation will pass through parliament during the winter of 2004 spring 2005. Anyone who does not have a command by end 2005 is likely to have to wait, it is inevitable. The airline is not expanding. If you want to blame anyone blame the EU. |
I think the days of BOAC are gone when groundcrew touched their forelocks to aircrew and the chaufeur was waiting at the bottom of the steps to whisk you to the Hilton.
Its all cheap and cheerful even at BA so if your expectations are dashed at the thought of having no respect for what you do then perhaps you should try some more mundane type of work. I have mixed and matched from working on building sites as a labourer to living it up on megga stopovers. I know which I prefer and remind myself whenever I think the job sucks. Flying is still a good job and BA are perhaps one of the better employers when you look at all the moaning on the threads about some of the lesser Fly by nights. Just the way I think but then who am I! Coop & BA Bear (BA= Bad Ass) |
Reference the query whether it helps being employed by BA in another position before an internal job offer as a pilot.
A contemperary of mine at a previous company had joined BA as an engineering cadet and then left them to gain flying experience once he got his ATPL. Several years later he reapplied as a DEP and they did not accept him. Can't think or see why. Said individual is now a A330 Captain with Emirates. I am sure he is not losing too much sleep over BA's decision a few years ago. |
Probably the same thing that stops most serving skippers kids from being accepted( with the very odd exception)
Unless you are the Mgr Pilot recruitment , of course.... Then you can fly over on Concorde and pick him up when he graduates too. |
SNOOKY
Yes I am worried whether the company will survive, but one management pilot leaving BA 18 months before his retirement age to take up a management position does not mean we are going down the tubes. Perhaps it indicates our managers are employable outside BA, as has happened in the past. BOAC Why dont you rejoin BALPA? Why do you hide in the BA only bit of PPRUNE? NIGELONDRAFT You have your A320 command, and have fallen on your feet somewhat. Well done. Others of us havent gone for a command as yet. My point is, the change in legislation may, if all those employed elect to stay until, say, 60, will affect every pilot in BA. There will be an effective FREEZE in place for 5 years. M Mouse "Rod Eddington was reported to have said words to the effect that BA will not make a decision until midnight December 31st 2005 otherwise they will be sued by one disgruntled party or another if they act preemptively."..................I thought the date would be DEC 31 2006, not 2005 Unless we voice our concerns, and BALPA polls us for our views, prior to legislation implementation, there will be NO new commands, and very few seat changes. You acted on the Pensions cap, why not on this? Come on BALPA, you need to represent ALL your members |
BAJSFO
Q1 Come on BALPA, you need to represent ALL your members Q2 Why do you hide in the BA only bit of PPRUNE Great to see the usual BA bickering here in public - it must give BA management great hope. Since I had no intention of joining this thread, bye-bye. I'm 'out to grass' soon, anyway. |
Here are the BA pay Rates to enable candidates to make an informed choice about BA.
CAPTAIN ................LH........................MH................ ...............SH 24........120700........ .......104600.......................102300 23........117800................102400...................... .100200 22........114900................100200...................... ...98100 21........112000..................98000..................... ....96000 20........109100..................95800..................... ....93900 19........106200..................93600..................... ....91800 18........103300..................91400..................... ....89700 17........100400..................89200..................... ....87600 16..........97500..................87000.................... .....85500 15..........94600..................84800.................... .....83400 14..........91700..................82600.................... .....81300 13..........88800..................80400.................... .....79200 12..........85900..................78200.................... .....77100 11..........83000..................76000.................... .....75000 10..........80100..................73800.................... .....72900 9..........77200..................71600..................... ....70800 8..........74300..................69400..................... ....68700 7..........71400..................67200..................... ....66600 6..........68500..................65000..................... ....64500 5..........65600..................62800..................... ....62400 4..........62700..................60600..................... ....60300 3..........59800..................58400..................... ....58200 2..........56900..................56200..................... ....56100 1..........54000..................54000..................... ....54000 F/O ..................LH.......................MH............... ...............SH 24...........90525..................78450................... ......76725 23...........88350..................76800................... ......75150 22...........86175..................75150................... ......73575 21...........84000..................73500................... ......72000 20...........81825..................71850................... ......70425 19...........79650..................70200................... ......68850 18...........77475..................68550................... ......67275 17...........75300..................66900................... ......65700 16...........73125..................65250................... ......64125 15...........70950..................63600................... ......62550 14...........68775..................61950................... ......60975 13...........66600..................60300................... ......59400 12...........64425..................58650................... ......57825 11...........62250..................57000................... ......56250 10...........60075..................55350................... ......54675 9...........57900..................53700.................... .....53100 8...........55725..................52050.................... .....51525 7...........53550..................50400.................... .....49950 6...........51375..................48750.................... .....48375 5...........49200..................47100.................... .....46800 4...........47025..................45450.................... .....45225 3...........44850..................43800.................... .....43650 2...........42675..................42150.................... .....42075 1...........40500..................40500.................... .....40500 To the above add £10 per flying hour for cpts £8 per flying hour for copilots. Also add £2.50 for each hour on duty at base to off duty at base which are allowances for meals etc. Also add £10 per night Cpts and F/Os for each night out of the UK The above variable amounts work out to about about 12% of basic for Cpts and 21% of basic for First Officers Just to recap At least 15 to 20 yrs to a command if you join now assuming we stay with the same number of hulls and most pilots leave at 55 not 60 or 65. You start at pay point 1 and go up one point each year. When you get a command you transfer to the Capt structure at your current point. Finally LH = 777 and 747 MH= 767 757 (Combined Fleet) SH= 737 A320 A319 A321 and remember NO pension related to final salary any more..... you just put money into the scheme and you get what it is worth when you retire What you will get back is pure guesswork. You will alas be the fist of the poor pension BA pilots. Hope this is of use |
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