Turkish Airlines THY working conditions - worse than announced?
 

Hi guys,

interested in applying for THY, I collected several information during the last months. Mainly I got 2 ex-colleagues flying there, of which one has resigned recently.

Could anybody actually flying in THY confirm or deny these partially strange items:

1. Pilot must be in IST 12 hours before flight. That means, an expat has to be there a day before and that day for travelling is still considered as OFF day. Also it means, expat cannot go home in 48hours rest period (plus possible short-term OFF).

2. In case you get sick, nevertheless where you are, you have to fly to IST, to consult doctor at the airport and show up. Otherwise, THY takes this as NO-SHOW and it has disciplinary consequences?

3. Also when you are sick, you get full reduction in salary, and with luck, you are able to get a maximum of 25% back after months, but only with Turkish National Health Insurance, appliying in Turkish Language at their desk and with Turkish-only speaking staff.

4. Since the new year the roster has changed and it is now for long-haul that way applied, that the pilot is 21days in IST, then 7 days at home. With the new rules, there is no chance of going home, even if your flight is only 1h from IST (ATH as example).

5. Managers are asking for new ideas, how to get more pilots to THY, but at the same times, all benefits are cut, changes are only to the giving side of the pilots and not vice versa.

6. Turkish Lira has lost of its value up to 40% and there is no compensation from THY.

7. Many expats are leaving after a year or a little more, because there is hardly movement in getting better working conditions, or as before, conditions are getting worse.

8. Turkish Union is not a help, they are not defending any expat problem.

9. You must be 24h available on mobile, otherwise disciplinary consequences are following.

10. flights are taken away by rostering, without any reason and on short term notice. Therefore, pilot is 12h before duty in IST and then he can experience, that his flight is canceled and he is bound to stay in IST.

There are more items, but I think these 10 are the most important to get a picture of the real situation, and not that, communicated by agencies etc.

Appreciate any reasonable comments ...

At a recent Turkish Airlines road show the pilot recruiter was asked about when u have to be in IST for your trip. Answer was no requirement... Only 1 hour 30 minutes for each flight.
Regarding sick, what I re all is you get paid wither 75 or 80 percent for long term sick if you follow procedures.
I get the distinct impression the wide body lifestyle is more relaxed than the narrow body.

I was told that the CEO recently stated there would be a pay rise for pilots coming soon because they are not receiving the applications and qualifications needed. It was also mentioned that this might be for expat pilots, which doesn't make a lot of sense... Should be all pilots

Just some of what I recall

Hmm ... a clear contradiction between what the man says who is trying hard to get new pilots to sign up, and what people said who worked there and left.

Whoda thunkit?

It would seem that because some pilots :mad: up , blamed it on their fatigue,THY has decided that all its pilots cant manage their rest.
It seems that their are overloaded with such unsafe events and are trying to stop the bleeding...
If they had a hard look at their terms and conditions then maybe would they realise that money can bring experienced crews which in turn would reduce such events and such memo wouldnt be necessary and keep therefore their crew happy and avoid them leaving.
I guess less pilots will accept to be called by their dispatch 12 hours before a flight then:E
It smells more and more like rotten eggs there....too bad it seemed that it had the potential to be a good gig...

I'm sure this will fix all of their problems :ugh:

Why do these people think they have the right to treat us like little children. As long as I sign saying I'm fit for work and well rested, it is MY responsibility therefore MY decision. I don't need THY to tell me how and when to rest. What next, will they post security in the Hotels to make sure we're in our room 12 hours before?

If these guys are so concerned about our health and well being, they really need to fix the sick leave procedure. At the moment it is a violation of human rights what you have to do in order to get "some" of your deducted salary back. Hence why crew regularly fly when they are sick, as it is far less stressful than staying at home.

This latest Memo is definitely one of the most ridiculous Memos in my career.

As far as I'm concerned they can sick this one up their ###. If they want to discipline or sack me because of this, then go ahead!!

Rules:


1. Try not to get disciplined or sacked, Just resign, it's better for your career.
2. Never work for an Airline where there is a strong local union which is anti expat Pilots, it can only end in misery and not for the local union.

1. Pilot must be in IST 12 hours before flight. That means, an expat has to be there a day before and that day for travelling is still considered as OFF day.

That is not unusual, after the Colgan Air Flight 3407 accident airlines are taking a very close look at crew's commuting patterns. My company imposes the same restriction and rightly so, some were commuting into Base at midnight for a 0600 report..

It is the Pilots responsibility to ensure he is well rested for the flight. Same as it's his responsibility to be free from Alcohol and drugs. Maybe with the Colgan flight it may have helped to pay their pilots more than what they require to qualify from food stamps and basing them in one of the most expensive cities in the US.

I guess you would also agree to the company mandating the last 12 hours of rest must be spent in the layover Hotel?!

I commute in and out of my Base by air. I always ensure I have 12 hours rest there before reporting for duty. On the way out I try to give myself a similar length of time off before starting the journey back home, I don't want to fall asleep at the wheel of my car either. See:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...ticle-1.372796

The problem is, of course, too many people abuse a relaxed commuting policy. Rest is a very important factor in safety and unfortunately some kind of rule is required even if it continues to be enforced in a relaxed fashion. I think if you're at your base 8 hours before duty and get yourself 6 hours sleep then you are sufficiently rested.


There's nothing worse though than being a Captain stood in briefing waiting for an F/O who's commute in has been delayed.

Night stop . Simply put , you are an A$$. The regulations are so that the company cannot schedule you to work continuously . What you do with and how you manage your rest is up to the individual . The company must schedule you at least the minimum , that's their responsibility , full stop . Are you guaranteed that you are "rested " after putting yourself in your room for 12 hours ? It does not ! It is commendable that you give up your time . My needs and what rest I need are my business , as long as I turn up for my duty fit !

Sounds like you belong in the Middle ages (east) where they remind the cabin crew to remember to take clean underwear on layovers . And further to what some have said , if you happen to work for a carrier with a minimum rest layover , which sometimes can be less than 10 hours between reaching the hotel and checking out , do you dutifully tuck in ? Guess it is not fatiguing or hard on the body to take the time to eat something ??

Hypocritical management BS! They can squeeze you on your OFF time , read it , YOUR OFF TIME !! Yet they work you to the limits of max duty and min rest !!

Best stay in the Sandpit Stone-cold...If you checked in as one of my crew I'd offload you.

Come on guys, you really can't expect anything other from some third world outfit?

Yup, I also don't give a rats a## about how long you are at base Nightstop.

How I rest is my business. Not yours, and NOT the company's. I make sure I am well rested before any duty, including after a commute. How do i do that? Again, none of anyone's business. When I sign the papers, I am confirming I am well rested and able to do my duty.

Why is it that I am most tired when I am signing for a flight after the short layovers with time zone changes? (and i don't party if thats what you're thinking) My sign on after a commute is and never has been an issue for me. Maybe I should ask the company to spend more time assesing crew fatigue when AT work!

As no sponsor said, this is a third world outfit, and I agree we cannot expect anything else other than the usual "we own you at all times" mentality.

To the Management : "Mind your own business with how and when I rest before a flight please!"

Very true and crews that are late for duty for any reason,especially because of commuting..should be sanctioned.

I am afraid the reason behind may be for a different reason than a fatigue issue since stonecold is writing duty rest can be 10 hours..
Could it be that the airline wants pilots on a stby basis so their flight can be changed more easily may it be required by operations?

Is management bending under crew scheduling?

Over worked,under paid,continuous one way concessions and :mad: off pilots doesnt help the situation....

....but if the FO is stood waiting for an expat Captain that's delayed, then that would be ok??

Be nice.....of course the opposite would be exactly the same.
He certainly mentioned it based on his view as a captain.

They can check this 12 hours rule hassle free by just clicking on your staff number and pair this with your ID 90 used ticket. If you are a commuter this means basically that you HAVE to come back 24 hours before the flight and go to your apartment or hotel room. So in turn this explicitly means a shortening of your stay back home. Combine this with a typical 2115 UTC reporting for duty trip on your OFF day and 'voila' you have to come 30 before your next trip. (unless you are planning to get really tired by coming 12 hours before the flight and stay at the crew lounge LOL)

The 24hr telephone contactable requirement is not really fiction even if its on your OFF day just be weary about that. If and for the time you are needed they will keep quite, this can turn ugly very quickly.

The Turkish have a talent for attracting Expat Pilots :}

Globally Yours:ok:

This is not a commuting contract. Your base is IST. If you choose to commute, tough. Just make sure you achieve adequate rest beforehand....

Nightstop, If it's not a commuting contract, then why was I employed on a "commuting" contract? Why did the contract agency state it is a "commuting contract"? And why did the company tell me it is a "commuting contract"?

This IS a commuting contract. Period. Oh wait... Did THY tell me this just to get me in:=

The only thing is that THY change the rules and requirements on the whim of whoever's ego happens to be in management. They do this on a continual basis and is the main reason I DO NOT recommend this company, as what the deal is today, may change next month.

The Short Haul fleet is a different beast than long haul, and commuting on that fleet would be next to impossible. I'm guessing this is the reason for the change, as maybe the 320 carrier pilot commuted!? (This is purely speculation on my behalf and I have no details/proof of this.... Purely a guess)

Here is one of many ads currently doing the rounds Nightstop.

**Turkish Airlines is now offering a Commuting Roster to **** Captains and has Increased the Bonus and Salary Figures**

source: http://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/140...ing-contract-/

Oh... and ther was NO increased Bonus and NO increased salary.

This figure of an increased slary and bonus was with Turkish Airlines factoring in 10 hours overtime in each salary. Bit cheeky :bored:

I say again, that is Not a commuting contract. How anyone could do so on that type of pattern must be mad. I'll stick to my 4 on, 4 off, 5 on, 15 OFF roster thanks.

First you say this as a fact:

Then state it as if its not possible with such a contract :

So I also say again. This IS [should be] a commuting contract, and sold as such. Only now are they changing the rules to suit themselves because of an accident. Apparently you were wrong in the first instance Nightstop, but cannot accept the fact.

I get more days than the previous poster at home in one stretch, however, in between trips with 3 days off I used to go home and see my family in Europe. That has essentially changed now. So minimum 3 weeks away from them now every month.

So Nightstop, you clearly don't know this contract or our situation yet posted all the "facts". You should go into management with your attitude towards fellow pilots.

As to you thinking it's just "tough" for me that I commute, May I suggest you go F### yourself!

TYTL:


I don't want to sound like management and I don't know the particular details of the contract that you signed but at my company; we have a similar situation. People who know full well that the contract is not commuting come, try and commute and then complain when they are not able to do it easily. In my view there are some good commuting contracts around which are advertised as commuting, if this is really your intention before joining a company then it is certainly better to go for a "designer commuting contract".

good luck in this industry

Is it correct that a layover can be 10hours and that this can be shortened to 8 hours? If so its a total hypocrite new restriction.

Boeingrestricted:

This new rule of 12hrs, if it's true (which I do not doubt) is, if I may speculate, just to suit them operationally.

Today you are practically forced to go flying when sick.

Your base is Istanbul, which on the short haul means both IST and SAW. A three hour drive between these two are not uncommon due to the insane traffic still, they are both considered as your home base. It's not uncommon that you start your duty on one airport and end it on the other one and have to spend alot of time going home.

Add to that, very dodgy rules regarding what's a standby, duty or not and it (at least for me) becomes apparent that they do not care about fatigue, health and rest however with the ever increasing traffic and shortage of crews, they for sure need more flexibility when it comes to rostering their crews.

Well, there are quite a few guys on the short haul fleets combining days off the end of one month with days off beginning of next month.. I guess it's a question of not annoying the natives:=

Yeah good idea..so for the rest of the previous and following month you will be a zombie...with only 8 days off in 52 days. The system is deeply sick and simply expat unfriendly.
Kirk...I understand you are involved but when your term of comparison are local guys that went to military high school cause their families could not afford an education, join the air force to get paid pennies and then come to THY where their only interest is money you already have a issue. If you add to that many do not speak a word of English ( but have level 6 is their license) are brainwashed and do not really understand that flying an airliner is not a " mission" you have a substantial issue. If you add to that civilian pilots were treated for decades like **** and suffered immensely in the past just to become like their torturer the issue get bigger. If you consider that the word CRM has no meaning as " co pilots" are generally not regarded as future captains but as captain shoe shiner that cannot use the foot rest cause that is captain privilege you have a bigger issue. If you add to that that they hates foreigners as they are seen as those taking their comrades place and chance to buy a villa in Bodrum or a big car or to send their kids to University you have a huge issue. If you add to that this people are still exerting their authority, as far as I know, on flight ops and management you have an incredible issue. Add to that the influence of politics, lack of competences, general language skills,nepotism, recommendations, and so one and we are talking about a third world airline embellished by commercials. The constant sequence of incidents accidents some very serious has no equivalent in first world aviation and it is just the result of the above. . Out source screening, no preferential path for air force pilots, foreign management...is the only way forward..but well Turks know it better. Still unfortunately passenger from all over the world are conned into flying THY. Thanking God I got out at the right time...

What about the guys on the Asian side of the Bosphorous, it can take up to 3 hours in heavy traffic. After that drive, surely you'd be far more tired than resting on a flight?

Why not go all the way and mandate suburbs allowed, and also require a "sleep/rest" logbook which must be filled in and signed by a witness to the said rest?

Simply ridiculous:mad:

Current conditions not attractive. Company severely understaffed. Management has no clue. Many other carriers are as desperate and if the pilot category does not get something out of the pocket of"managers " this time and not the other way around as usual...this job doomed.

XOXO
 

Hi There,

1- Yes. As per new procedure you should be here and resting in Istanbul before your duty starts. This affects Turkish pilots more than expats since they don't have commuting contract and live in the cities such as Antalya, Izmir, Ankara...

2- Nope... Totally incorrect... You just have to send your sick report via email and see the doctor when you are back to make sure that you are ok. It happened to me and got the acceptance confirmation of my sick report via e-mail within an hour...

3- Its also incorrect. The system is automated... You don't speak with anyone.. Once company has received your report, they upload it to the Online Sick Report System of National Social Security Department. They do have access to that database. Within 7 working days you get your payment via Ziraat Bank with your National ID which is starting with 9 for expats. However, you cannot get full refund since flying allowance is not counted towards this scheme and also tax exempted.

4- You never get only IST-ATH-IST flight... (unless you are so lucky) The duty is way more than that.

5- Pretty much correct

6- Definitely correct

7- Incorrect... I haven't seen so much of people leaving. Only few because they find a job close to their home..

8- Correct.. But they do not defend Turkish Pilot problem either :) Its a union on paper collecting money from their members... Nothing more...

9- Incorrect.. Just a rumour.

10- Incorrect... They call you whether you accept or not... However no pressure is felt.. Even you can ask extra days off for this favor and they accept. But procedural wise, they have the authority to change your flight with 24 hours notice...

I hope this answers all the questions...

Stone Cold - no your the complete A$$.
If an airline tried to roster you to pax XXX-Base to operate an full FDP - What would you say? - But it's alright when you want to pitch up having commuted before a flight.
Get the Part A and read Crew members responsibilities. :\

@furbpilot
 

Thanks for an advice about my English skills... I should definitely do something about it... And good luck to everyone whose got the job in the Middle or Far East.. May god bless each of them and facilitate safe and enjoyable life...

Angry .

For someone from the UK , it is "you're" not "your" . Would have expected better .

That is my point , the regs are to ensure that the company cannot roster you this way . The regulations cannot stipulate where and how one rests , the company has to legally provide you with the time , not tell you how to rest . As far as Part A , the CM responsibility is to ensure sufficiently rested and fit , I agreed with this .
So yes , I can commute ( pitch up ) if I am able to do it . As long as I am feel sufficiently rested .

Maybe your employer should stipulate that you should be prone , in bed , eyes shut 12 hours before , because being in your base does not guarantee that you are rested . Need to be told when to eat , take a pi$$ also ? :rolleyes:

Mr Angry from Purely,

You sir are clueless!

Maybe you should read the responsibilities and understand them!

No wonder this industry is so bad with individuals like you who comment on issue they have no clue about.

Mr Angry from Purely,

hahaha

they want to roster you bla bla bla...

How would you feel if they rostered you to drive for 3 hours etc etc

I might ask how you get to a flight? Do you drive, train, bus or do you miraculously appear at briefing? Well...its none of my or anyone elses business. Simply put, you sign that your are fit!

Get with the program!!

You are the reason we have no hope in this industry. Why do people with no idea and no "horse in the race" have such an opinionated reply?! Go back to whatever you're doing and leave the Airline Industry and conditions to the Pilots that it affects!

Clearly you haven't a clue! You are happy for the company to dictate what you do and when you do it. I'd love to see this affecting you and you being told when you have to rest in your own time, and how you get to work.

Complete slave who does what he's told... or is it that you just lack empathy and you're a complete :mad:

what is clear now?
 

Well guys, thanks for all posts.

I found more information than I expected, and also ideas and words, how much different the rest before flight is evaluated.

Anyhow, so far, it makes it difficult to get a clear view, since there are a few posts going in opposite directions. Going back to my 10 points from the start,
which point is clearly incorrect?

Maybe somebody is able to summarize ...