Kirk I think JZR is just rightfully fearing to experience what the hundreds of expat that left THY since the disgraceful time they decided to exploit foreign pilot have experienced. Honesty and fairness towards non Turks are a rare option.
You call it a lack of training capacity I hear a selective one. In fact it would appear locals are proceeding in their training while "yabancies" wait as you said, but paid peanuts ( if you happen not to fly your salary is more that halved) on a beach that in Istanbul simply do not exist.
The Best European Airline for a 5th time in a row and 4 best airline in the world according to incompetent passenger that fortunately do not know what's going on behind that door is still finding it hard to act not according to European standard and world best practices but not even just in accord with basic rules of education and to have a fair and on par approach with foreigners. The delusional world in which many locals live is what is most disturbing. They should really start facing the fact that their training and flight operation department are not really the best as they like to think..quite the opposite. One would think they should start to have some doubt..seen the recent and past events but no.. go to any Turkish aviation forum or on line magazine.. it is always someone else fault. I find immaturity incredibly dangerous if paired with paternalism and a cultural back ground that values seniority over skills and professionalism. You will be looked at with unmotivated contempt while you will be looking at them in the same way for good reasons mostly their crooked way of dealings. And that is an absurd situation.
I stand on my " strong sell" on THY for the substantial presence of chauvinist xenophobic arsoles, the way too strong influence of politics and the way strong military influence. Add to that the non survivable 110 hours roster on narrow body with lack of real commuting option, the expat unfriendliness of Istanbul and we get to the reality that is:
THY is only good for a retired wide body captain looking for some fun and extra cash, for some unlucky Eastern European pilots , desperados of various origin ( at times with forged documents) , and second tier pilots that did not make it in to real airlines or in the Gulf.

Homework for the benefit of my family
 

@Kirks gusset - good having your post :ok:

You are right: "if staff leave and try to book ID tickets outside of the period they are entitled to, then they are blocked". 100% true, I would not do it different.

To avoid misunderstanding, the case I was meaning is different: Within the resigning period this CPT was blocked in several internal web-applications, including staff traveling. Again, within the resigning period, serving the company. To me, that is so much unfair and completely unacceptable. I don`t know, what it is to you....

Also, I understand when you question me, why I think about leaving, before I even applied (little correction, I applied but did not join the interview yet):

I am starting to say, that I am settled, my motivation why to change is to come closer with the job to my family :D, which is my highest priority.

I try to understand why you would advise me to stay away of the Turkish culture?

I have worked in Turkey before, also my culture is South European, we take things easy as the Turkish Culture does and most of the time, Turkish people are friendly and warm. Still companies within a culture are different, people within a culture are different, and so far I did not see a post where the activities of THY are simply based on the culture.

Let me be more precise in my detailed search to understand the situation in THY, although I did not join the interview yet:

My thinking is, that the interview - except for the important fact that you are accepted or not - does not give a help to the applicant at all to get details about the situation, he might expect after serving the company a year or more.
Personal sources from people inside THY are a very good source, and to communicate in forums as pprune is a further possibility to get more infos, to get more people telling about their experience.
Sure, pilots having experienced negative items might use this forums as a revenge. On the other hand, so many pilots replied within this post, besides some emotional facts, most pilots using friendly words and posting facts that my personal judge is that many facts are true.

All helps me (might not be helping you) to make a decision if should give up my present job with its goodies and badies and go for the risk to end up worse. And I do this evaluation before using important days for the interview which I could use to see my boy and girls at home, plus, if I decided to give it a chance, what is the "exit-scenario" if the trial was negative...

Since I do not belong to the group PORKFLYER mentioned in his last sentence ("is only good for a retired wide body captain looking for ....") I make this homework very detailed and appreciate your help in this.

:cool:

If people are still under notice period normally they have full access to the internal internet as this is required for day to day operations, emails, rosters etc etc. An exception may be if a guy decides to leave, gives 2 months notice, then goes sick, or leaves the country permanently for the entire notice period. In this case there is no reason for him to have access to the systems.

Selective removal from the ID travel system takes positive intervention by HR and this would only be done if there was a reason ( abuse, or as above)

Regarding " exit strategy" simple, when you join you sign a contract, that sets out the terms for leaving and any penalty involved ( balance of training costs, salary penalty, notice period etc)

When I say the " Turkish culture" I am referring not to individual attitudes but the red tape and bureaucratic process that newcomers often find frustrating. For instance you cannot start " training" until you have a work permission, this is linked to your resident permission and can involve trips back and forth to your own embassy etc, in your home country. This is often seen as favouritism towards the Turkish pilots whom are excluded from this process and can thus start training much sooner.

This is huge airline, you will not be a cosy relative of the management, simply a number and a resource, if you take that attitude and accept it, it can work. Expect no favours and if you get any its a pleasant surprise.

In terms of "support" for families, finding schools, housing, etc, I have found the Turkish FOs and colleagues always willing to help, make calls, arrange visits etc, but the HR department is not focused on this area as it is not their responsibility.

If you are prepared to help yourself, things work, on the other hand if you expect to me spoon fed solutions, it does not work.

Personally, I can adjust, my expectations after 6 years are less than when I joined, on the other hand I keep things simple.

A typical issue would be " moving house", this would involve lots of paperwork, visit to Police, Bank, Notary, Cable firm, Water, Electric and trying to get the deposit back from a Landlord is like getting blood from a stone, so its annoying.

In this respect, it may be better to do lots of research before renting to avoid the issue all together, if you rent an old place, chances are it is due to be knocked down.

As observed by others " training standards" can be exacting, and many ex military guys lack the advanced CRM enjoyed in the west, but this is partly a language confidence issue as well.

As for leaving your other job.. thats a decision only you can make..

........

...........

Hi all, Im just wondering if someone working there as an FO would be kind enough to answer 1 or 2 questions (via PM is ok too). I just wanted to know how much the training bond is that you sign (B777 type rated) and what the roster is like for an FO on the B777.

Does anyone know what the situation is regarding command upgrades for foreign F/O's? Will the airline give you the chance to go for the upgrade and have any foreigners passed a command upgrade course and are now flying as captains?

I know the requirement for a university degree is there and I'm asking the question assuming that all minimum criteria are met. Is there some sort of fast track to command for experienced F/O's given how short of people THY is in general? Please stick to facts rather than rumours and hearsay.

A movie still sadly representative of the abusive and deceptive Turkish attitude...


THY exit interview.

10% of expat quit in the last six month. Expect an exodus by year end..many FO already committed to other jobs or on screening and many CPT to FR and EZY and so on. Jobs are picking up in Europe. The general consensus is people are fed up of lies and all the meddling and deception. Looks like THY really cannot manage to understand . If nothing changes in their attitude they will end up parking their planes.Still pride will be safe indeed....:ok:

If the ex-pats want to make a stand, they should do what they say are are going to do, this is a general problem with ex-pats in Turkey. Look at SXS Ankara base, " rumours" were all the ex pat Spanish German and Italians would leave after the bonus payment in April, how many left? just 2. Now at THY the 737 guys are looking to go back to Europe but don't want the tax burden, the 777 guys seem happy to continue, can't comment on blunderbus fleet. In terms of numbers, if 100 ex pats left today it would not make any difference to the operation in the long term as there are more than double that in the screenings. Agreed THY needs to improve communication but the company always has, and always will, rely on the " rumour mill" as a means of leaking information so by the time its " official" everyone has become accustomed to the ideas, i.e there are no " bomb shells" The OP was " working conditions " they are basically the same as ever, big bucks, low tax, good string of days off.. this is a different question to " living conditions or quality of life"

With the number of rated ( and non rated ) pilots Easy and Ryanair are looking for... I fear this time the bomb shell is about to hit .Talking of FO's who would not take a 737 job in Europe now often even with locally paid taxes and pensions and fixed roster getting an upgrade in 12 month. Hope you made your maths accurately. Beside the salary tax paid is now very close if not more than what THY offers here seen the TRY fall.

Everyone talks the talk but no one walks the walk so things won't improve noticeably anytime soon.

The alternatives are: the lovely sandpit, seasonal contracts in Europe or cockroaches and multi resistant bacteria in the far East.

So Wet ears, I reckon that will take at least 2 years to get the money back plus thousands of Lira in fees! You know to even get a Notary to authenticate a document is expensive, imagine the cost of trying to get anything into the Turkish Courts! another useless law that is not enforceable in a practical sense..The best advice is not to pay the rent equal to the deposit, even the big Emlaks like Remax and Century 21 agree this is the only way..My deposit money was spent 6 years ago on cigarettes and Raki!

Wet..its Kirk and his cronies interest to give an idea of Turkey as kind of legal Far West so that they can bully, intimidate, people. It is not. I had the same issue when I resigned . Hired a young lawyer and three month later the deposit was on my bank with interest back home. The fee was quite reasonable and was anyway paid by the landlord by court order. Even when it comes to labor the worker is quite safeguarded... local..or expat I came to know.... Beside the notary if I remember well was 150 TL..75 euro of the time...

The laws are very different in Turkey, here the tenant is paying the Emlak commission at home the Landlord pays that. Here the tenant has to even put up basic lights and fix worn out items and replace pieces of old crap, at home this is the responsibility of the Landlord. Last year we paid additional sigorta to protect us incase the building burnt down or we flood the flat below (which apparently could be our fault !) and this year when we went to renew we discovered our Landlord had never paid the money over to Alliance, so infact we were never insured.. we went to the police about this, which is basically " theft", the answer was " This is Turkey" . When I leave I will just withhold my rent as I have as much chance to get my 2 months deposit back as go to Mars! And I know HR at THY will not get involved, as you know it takes months for anything legal to happen here. The advice you give is probably sound and legally correct if we worked on a level playing field, alas, sadly, we often don't. Of course not all landlords are crooks, but often they are living in summer house in Bodrum and Izmir and even getting them to Istanbul is nigh impossible.. The company could easily have a bulk deposit scheme with a large Emlak group and shuffle guys around, but they don't want to get involved

And Porky, what the hell have you been smoking! Im not defending the system I'm deploring it! this is not a THY bash it's a statement of fact how things are relating to the property market here. You should be applauding the system if you got such a quick result and praising Turkey, your resolution was far quicker than even in the UK with the deposit protection scheme taking a minimum of 3/4 months if there is a dispute.. well done!

Porkflyer,in light of this youtube extract you have shared a few posts above whichs treats Turks as PIGS which clearly shows the reasonning behind all your posts, I only hope that our paths,or any of your similar low life scums , never come to cross.

My dear De Facto ..you are so wrong. I was interested only in the part at minute 2,50 or so..when the guy addresses the court talking about the perception of justice i copied the URL at the minute but it came the full video. The movie Midnight Express is classic of the 70s based on a true story. The protagonist later came many times to Turkey and apologized as the Turkish Government did for his treatment. By playing the religious or ethnic card you are the one telling a lot. My nick name is taken by video game and has nothing to do with religion... you are seeing it. Nobody is denigrating Turkey or the Turkish people this is exclusively about Turkish Airlines, the Best European Airline and the treatment of expatriate pilot ( and forget about 777/330 having a just decent deal). Lets talk about short haul CPT and FOs, the vast majority. You have been constantly lying and deceiving both and this in Europe would be INCONCEIVABLE. So either you stop calling your self European and continue with your third world crooked style.. or change and learn fairness and honesty as simple as that. You are denigrating you own country not us. I read people are again on the go. A friend told me tens are leaving to Doha. Think about it...people working for the Best European Airline leaving for the desert ? Something must be very wrong..ever asked your self the question ..

Porkflyer,maybe its best you continue and play with your video game then and give it a rest with your continuous anti turkish bull****.
You must be such a sad individual to be around...
My blood cant be of a more pure European decent.,well here you go I am swedish..is that European enough for you?

Doha must be a great place to leave,,,im sure they will love the Airline style and country.

Hello,

could anyone working for THY on the 737 fleet please contact me via PM, I am looking for info on whether it is actually possible to commute etc I really would greatly appreciate it!

If three consecutive days off once a month is enough, you might be.

Latest rumors on the expat radio...mass resignation on all fleets but especially on 737 / 320....

Those rumours have been heard for a while online and on the smoking areas but they tend to have little substance.

Agreed! those same rumours have been circulating for the past 6 years! Still same old faces in crew area, just a bit more worn down and tanned.:ok:

Looking at the 105 hours rosters..it would seem a bit more than a rumor. Just wonder where they find the time to get tanned. According to reliable data attrition is at 40%. Your deceptive attempts dear..type4 ..kirk..and de facto...seems to be detrimental not quite the opposite. Are you maybe really convinced of dealing wth idiots here ? 737 parked I hear..

Don't get me wrong, I would like to see a healthier market where supply and demand is key now that the market, in some respects, is turning into a market in favour for experienced pilots.

However, since pilots shut their mouths and start backstabbing each other the more pressure you put on them, these attrition rates seldomly turn out to be real. For every 10 pilots saying s/he will resign, only one will, the rest will be moaning on this forum.

Until that one person resigns, management will already have found two new hungry candidates to replace the former one. :rolleyes:

Bob, I can't comment on attrition rates, and with respect, neither can you, in Turkey accurate information is as likely as tits on a frog.. what I do know for a fact is that most of the Ex Pats leaving in the next 2 months is due to age..and that's just a handful.. by conclusion we can assume they stayed until their last flights as they were too old to jump ( well zimmer hop) to another job..There were also 2 Captains that went to Quatar as FOs to "live the dream" it is generally known the 737 fleet this time of the year has the most demanding roster, but most guys forget that and focus on the money.. The short haul fleet is a ticking bomb waiting for better opportunities and is nothing like the LH fleet in terms of lifestyle.

If you have an agressive, penny pinching and safety disorientated bunch of senior flyboys in charge of any airline, things only change when the pilots start to leave faster than they can train replacement drivers.

Voting with your feet really does work and some of you should try doing just that.

I can and I can tell you that slightly more than one in three expat pilot ever recruited is no longer working for THY. The deal, the fairness, the lifestyle, the professional environment and the career opportunities were far too good.. they felt an unsustainable guilt on taking advantage....:rolleyes:
If I was in charge I would start to ask my self a few questions, especially on the financial cost of such permanent recruitment drive that and who is really taking benefit of the situation
But such introspection seems not to have been inserted in the Turk genetic code and/or they have been badly advised. Some of such advisers probably hide behind some of the nick names here. Kirk and the like are probably part of the HR internet propaganda and rumor discrediting/ milling team.Skyship007 don't worry many actually are.

Lots of guys are complaining, but out of the group (expat FO's) of people I know only one is leaving and another is applying elsewhere.
My friends in 330/777 are certainly not considering to leave at the moment.

Many of the complaints are from guys that feel they were entitled to a wide body upgrade but didn't get it. And now they think of leaving for the sandpit to fly a wide body.....

Bob, I am not part of the HR machine and never will be, so, your statistics are somewhat meaningless, akin to saying 30 percent of all pilots are now retired.. The problem with this thread is some folk have difficulty isolating "working conditions" from "cultural conditions". IF guys were subject to the same environmental conditions but working from their " home country" I very much doubt they would complain, BUT, if they could get a job back home they would already be there.. As highlighted, some new gripes arising from being stuck on SH fleet, however, How can anyone compare living on the Bosphorus with 5% tax against living in a tenement block in Leeds.
Bob, you highlight pilot retention issues,we are no where close to the attrition seen in some airlines, recruitment is an on-going issue with the lack of Credible candidates..

Kumbaia at the end it all gets down to where you come from, your experience and what option you have. Sure to leave you still need to pass a screening somewhere else. For you and some younger less experienced guys getting to fly a wide body might be a fulfilling achievement but in your place I would be more concerned about my real career opportunities than in posting pictures and your presence in "exotic" location on your FB account. Beside FO are on the same pay scale therefore you are improperly calling it an "upgrade". And in THY still upgrades to captaincy for expat FO are a big question mark...

These would be the " new lower minimums" agreed April 2014 then! Previously eligibility for upgrade was 5 years after passing the type rating, this was changed to 5 years after " licence issue" except for ex military where it can be 3 years or even 2 if they have enough jet time. Many ex military guys were chopper pilots and they need longer. The threshold was lowered from 4000 hrs to 3000 hours, however, it doesn't effect much as everyone is in the same boat. More than 50% of the yabanci FOs do not have university degree 4 years and thus they are not in the running. Some Foreign FOs were bumped to 777 as they were never in the running, some are studying for degrees but in reality they could consider jumping ship with 2000 hrs wide body, having said that, again only the Sand Pit is available. The perception of being " put back" occurs with the hiring of the ex mil guys that jump the queue, having said that, they tend to be older and generally more experienced in any event, more mature etc etc. If the question is " is it an old boys club" the answer would be " maybe"

I really promised my self I was not intervening in this forum anymore..but Kirk.. you really are magnet...
What the hell are you talking about ? Agreement...what agreement .. helicopter pilots.. old boy club...are you for real?

Kirk ah ah ah... you are beating your self in your attempt of disinformation. We are talking about the upgrade requirement for civilian pilot (military one would generally do a great favor to THY by remaining such). Many expat FO meet the requirement for upgrade without any degree (not a requirement anymore) and have been waiting quite long time. In 2013 those that joined before were moved back 700 plus position in seniority with no explanation and with this 500 hour reduction for locals will see another huge amount of local stepping on front of them at the risk of the flying public In the sand pit at least you get a fair treatment.

Well, firstly I don't even waste my time with Facebook.

And, I agree. Wide body is not really an upgrade. Wrong choice of words.
On the other hand, the Turks most definitely see it as an upgrade :eek:.

I couldn't care less about the machine, for me the schedule and the possibility to travel home are most important (very big + in THY at the moment). When it comes to career, in THY nobody knows whats going on i guess. However, the first guys have been upgraded.

If there would be a really good option I guess most of us will jump ship anyhow. But currently not many nice gigs around. Unless you want to be in the sandpit etc.

Pork fat, if you spent half as much time studying the DGCA regulations as you do bleating you would improve yourself.. Old boys club refers to the number of ex-miltary guys that know each other and by default their passage to command is much simpler.The Naval help guys that joined as FOs have to do more hours as the way fixed wing and rotary are factored..can you understand that? If you only look at the whole picture you will see whats going on, unfortunately you seem to suffer with tunnel vision..Bob, unfortunately you have been misinformed.. lets leave it at that. Sand pit fair treatment... holy smoke! lastly unless Part A changed 5 minutes ago, and Part D was updated 3 minutes ago, you still need a degree or 4 years high school Diploma. And BOB if these " people" are so unhappy why don't they just quit? more hot air I guess!

Kirks Gusset said "How can anyone compare living on the Bosphorus with 5% tax against living in a tenement block in Leeds."

I guess the only thing comparable would be having to listen to the bleedin Mosques wailing away the whole time. . . . . . . :hmm:


Doubt the 5% tax makes up for the drop in "real earnings" incurred by the currency rate if you still have a life outside of Turkey.

I seldom take part on this discussion but I can confirm that:

- you do not need a degree if you meet certain flight time criteria ( as per THY updated upgrade procedure)
- there is no requirement set by Turkish DGAC to be a degree holder for upgrade
- seniority was suddenly "adjusted".

The question that remains is: are non-Turkish F/O's being upgraded or not?

Let's say someone joined now on the B737 fleet that meets all the requirements for a command upgrade (i.e. degree and corresponding flight time), how long could they expect to wait for the upgrade, and is the commuting roster in place now?

Three in the process a couple more called for upgrade interview. All very high hours after 4/5 years in the company. Commuting only on long haul fleet. THY advertising for 5-2-1 or 4-3-1 for narrow fleet. Out.

I know of one ex Lufthansa FO that is about to finish His upgrade. Incidentally he has a degree but they did not even asked since he is carrying more then 8000hrs jet. Joined the company few month ago. If I understood correctly is a special deal between TK and LH...

Rgrds