As an " OFF DAY" can include minimum rest ( although SHT OPS states otherwise) it is worth being back the day before a flight if commuting.. a " duty day" can start with a roster change to an early start and you could be left with your trousers down if not careful.. without doubt, it is the pilot whom is responsible for ensuring he/she is properly rested and " fit for duty" .. I have seen some guys literally hanging in the seat after the planned 8 hour day becomes a 14/15 hour stint..
Regarding the medical report and having to come to office if sick.. complete nonsense.. on-line reporting system in place,as posted an acknowledgement of report received is sent to your inbox..I believe Turkish law requires the SGK payments to be adjusted for sick days.
Required to fly "off day" is you say NO that's the end of it..they just call someone else.
Regarding people leaving in droves? not sure where this rumour comes from..maybe on the A320 fleet, seen no hard evidence of this on the Boeing fleets..but numbers are comparative, its a big airline.
The " real issue" is the training times, most LTI and TRI are working flat out and still guys are taking months to get through line sectors. Some FO groups that joined December have less than 20 hrs training to date.. as an example..
Having said that, sitting at home on full salary, whilst boring, can be lucrative! One FO I spoke with did 3 hours in April, that works out to 4000 lira an Hour.. more than my lawyers:rolleyes:

Regarding the salary increase: I received an email from one of the recruitment agencies stating there was a 20% increase in Salary. I replied saying I worked here and this was a lie and was basically fraudulent. Here was the reply

Thank you for the your email.

We are engaged by Turkish Airlines to advertise current terms for their open roles on offer. As of the 7th April 2015 we were informed by the airline that the salaries would be increased by the amount stated as below. We were also informed this would take immediate effect.

This is not mis-leading nor is this fraudulent.

A few pilots I previously placed with THY have been in contact informing me that they did not receive an increase in their latest salary over this weekend so I have been in contact with THY to advise this. I am sure there is a reasonable explanation in any case.

I recommend for you to follow up with the airline directly pertaining to the salary increase.

The "reasonable explanation" would be very interesting to hear!!

If this is true then THY has basically lied to th
e recruitment agencies. There was no extra pay rise at all. I was told by one of the locals that they accounted for 80 hours per month which gives you 10 hours overtime, and used that figure to promote a pay rise.
For those considering coming here, please do your homework as there is no increase in salary at all. With this recent "smoke and mirrors" campaign, the THY management have proved they will deceive and stretch the truth (at best) to make the job sound more appealing. IMO this makes things far worse.

Unfortunately this is the way the Turkish think. It's normal in their culture to "try it on" when it comes to money, however, they haven't realised yet that this is not the way most other cultures work.

What basic salary did you sign for and what do you get now?
Some was posting 18000 TL basic and the new is 21000 TL basic...thats about 20 % rise no?
If you joined few days before the announcement then maybe the increase was already factored in...
In any case lets not go into culture thing...i worked all over the world and believe me when I say a business oriented airline has not much to do with its country people.
If the rise was implemented over time then pilots got more than they signed for initially...seems increase is just to cover inflation.
Still pay is below market and they will continue to struggle finding qualified candidates,reducing minimum requirements is a double edged sword.

I signed a few years ago, so what I signed for in Lira is largely irrelevant as the inflation has been insane.

In terms of real use in the real world, my salary has declined approximately $1000 a month. That is when our adjusted yearly increment is applied twice a year, so it can be more of a loss as the months pass until the adjusted inflation rate. The increases are not keeping up with inflation, thus slowly earning less.

The accommodation allowance has remained the same for 6 years, so the purchasing power is far far less than it used to be.

When I joined US$1 = 1.4 Lira, Now its more like 2.7. Do the Math:confused:

The devil "could be" in the detail " current open roles" this in THY speak means a new joiner MAY get a better contract than an existing employee. Other airlines in Turkey play the same game, " new joiners" can be offered commute but "existing employees" not. Look at the bright side, unlike many high profile airlines, with THY your contract is with the airline directly, not via some trumped up, dodgy as hell " agency" that may leave you with huge tax exposures and no basics: LOL, Medical, Holdiay Pay, Maternity Leave, Compassion Leave, Dental, Housing etc etc. THY has received many NLH 787 applications for the 777 fleet..many EK and FR applications, maybe the grass isn't greener, but it,s no browner either:) In real terms, a short haul Captain will net average 29-31K Lira and a LH slightly more. Last month I netted 11K Euro after converting, thats approx 7800 GBP NET or 3000GBP better than if I jump to NLH at Gatwick.. and yes.. I do know several guys at NLH.. FOs, well that's a different kettle of fish, can get stinky..

That's not a very accurate representation Kirks !

Tell us how much overtime, Sunday Pay, and housing allowance was included. Take that away and I know for certain you didn't earn that much last month.

Hi guys, thanks for a good thread, but one thing that is not completely clear to me (excuse me if I misread something earlier), is if upgrades to longhaul are still possible for foreign FO's?

Despite all things written here, I might be interested in joining THY, but only if I can make a step to 777/330 within a reasonable period of time...

Twenty something..It's an entirely accurate representation, however, as you point out it's not a " basic" as always, the smoke obscured the mirror! The real point being in ANY airline it is reasonable to expect additional payments for working off days, night stops, duties over 80 hours a month etc, in essence we are still comparing apples with apples..apart from during training I have never worked a " basic pay" month..my biggest gripe now is the fact many flights are full and getting back home can be an issue..even with the " special paper" from Flight Ops and with the DGCA rules post the German Wings nonsense jump seats are like hens teeth..

Kirk Kirk as an Irish man you should be worrying about your soul. There ain't not enough Turks in management trying to screw expat and locals ?
Nothing worst than a pilot trying to screw other pilots for his own benefit.
Nevertheless.. your figure are wrong. As a narrow body captain your salary with 70 hours is 21,700 TL. Your figure includes 25 hours overtime and a life of endless duties and multiple sector plus I hear now many dodgy destination in Central Africa. I have still a few ( very few..the most are gone since long ago) friends down there..having a very very sorry life. The 12 hour rest in Istanbul will give the final push..worry not. Funny enough your friend O' Leary is proving a better employer.....go figure.
By the way ..how many hull losses do you plan for the year..:ok:?

Pork Sausage dont worry my soul was sold to the devil years ago! Looking at the Pay scales, I agree with your basic figure, but you neglected to mention the 3 monthly extra salary, ( contractual) so that effectively would push a SH Captain put to 28K lira without O/T or night stops. Probably as Yabanci they will never fly at weekends.. but nevertheless. I am not saying THY is utopia but compared to Africa ( read ebola, and infested rooms, and women) Turkey is paradise..but it's a personal choice..I'll be having a glass with MOL in August and relay your compliments!

Increase of salary ?

I confirm , there is no increase .

Worse; due to the change € / TL the pilots lost 8% in the last 2 months .

And everybody agreed; it would be even worse in the coming months

Why these recruitment agencies are playing this dirty game ?

I still thrusted few of them until now. Maybe I was naive.


Leave Turkish airlines playing this dirty game alone .

Gentleman,

Your basic salary will be south of 20400TL when no weekends and less than 70 hours flown. This is for the SH.

There was a time, years ago where you could identify a good agency from the others. Today, you talk on the phone with parc or aviationcv and you think they are the very same agency... :mad: level.

Kirk... I had no doubt you was going to have a glass with MOL. Say hello to him and his Irish friends at Boeing from me and thank him to have rendered an appealing and respected job into a kind of circus of cheap looser. You find it soft as people have unfortunately lesser and lesser balls and are for sale for an Iphone. In effect the category is nowadays one small notch above truck drivers in Turkey often on par. Unfortunately it will not work.. wait and see the devastating effects on safety in the following years. Its already started. It was a good plan but still tell him the last word is not said yet..laughs the most who laughs the last. You mentioned Ebola. It actually stands to human beings as Irish stand to civil aviation and Europe. ...cheerio!

porkflyer,

harsh. . . . . . but true :(

just out on the news
 

Typical theme of the Industry.... Make the "checks" more stringent:ugh:

Wouldn't this add fuel to an already raging fire?

Problem is, the real fix will cost money. More Pilots and better conditions. Ain't gonna happen yet IMO as the Airlines will exert too much pressure to the people that matter. This will be another face saving, public reasurance that we have now got to do more rigorous checks. Problem solved!:mad:

News flash £1 = 4.18 TRY

Will it teach 4.5 to the £ by summer?

And 5:1 next year?

The lotto would pay better lol

Lost Value
 

As long as they do not get the turn in Ankara as long the T & C are not going up. I do not mean the value of the currency only. Alot of lipservice and window dressing but nothing of substance.

12 hour rule
 

The 12 hour rule as it is called by some is not a new thing invented by Turkish Airlines but the required rest time one needs to have in accordance with the flight duty and rest time limitations laid down by the DGCA of Turkey.

One may feel fit to fly arriving for check in right after traveling to one's designated home base but the journey there already counts as duty time and will probably lead to the flight not being legal. Normally no one will know when one actually arrived at their home base and how much rest time one actually had but if there is an incident of any kind investigators will look at every detail and they will find out that you were not legal to carry out this particular flight. The recent runway excursion and hard landing incident shows that at any time something can occur which will lead to investigators making sure that company employees are abiding by regulations.

Sometimes the official rest times will not necessarily lead to us feeling more rested, nevertheless it is our responsibility as pilots to make sure we are rested according to the regulations and not according to what we feel is right (meaning less than 12 hours at home base).

I don't quite understand how a company insisting on this is labeled "a third world outfit"? On the contrary....

737mgm, so what's worse, a 1 hour flight "resting", or a 3 hour drive in heavy traffic?

Your duty does not start where you leave home. It starts when you sign on for the days work. How you get to work is up to you, and you sign the form accordingly.Otherwise you wouldn't be able to get the Bus, catch a train or whatever means of transport you use. If this was truly a rule by DGCA or the company, to have any meaningful application they would need to dictate a maximum distance from work you would be allowed to live.

How many guys in the US, UK, Australia etc commute using air travel? They're not dictated too by where they can live, and how they must get to work. Again, they sign they are well rested and take full responsibility.

If this company (and most others) truly care about "safety" involving the Pilots rest, then they would need to stop the ridiculous schedules in short haul...... but that costs money!:rolleyes:

twentyyearstoolate, you make a good point about the commute to work and the maximum distance that would need to be dictated.

At my company I often have flights that do not start at my homebase so my company will schedule me to arrive at the hotel so that I will have my required rest time. Let's say my flight leaves at 10pm and my company schedules me to arrive at noon (10 hours before when in the hotel away from home base) or more likely at my company, the day before. I might prefer to arrive just a few hours before my flight so that I can stay longer with my family but if I have an 11 FDP ahead of me I would not be legal if I do not check into my hotel at least 10 hours before check in time for my flight.

I was pretty sure the same would apply for your homebase but as you point out it is not defined where you should live and thus nobody actually knows how long you commute and as you point out duty starts when you check in at the airport. Therefore my previous post may be incorrect.

Sounds like it's becoming a lot like Emirates with that new rule.

If it's any indication of the future, it might be that there will be more "rules" like this as the minions start to realize they can restrict the pilot group even more with ridiculous rules like this one….

It still sounds better than the ME though…

So the hard landing cause has changed from wake turbulence to a
fatigue issue?

No it hasn't de facto, I was merely pointing out that if any type of incident occurs, investigators will look at every detail and if one flight crew member did not comply with the established rest times he/she will have a problem, whether fatigue is seen as a contributing factor or not.

What about augmented crew ,long haul ? I often wonder whats the point of all of us reporting fully rested when somebody has to go to the crew rest and try to sleep soon after take off? Not just a problem at THY.

I've heard both pilots involved in the Nepal accident were both commuters (Turkish domestic )

One may assume this was the reason for the 12 hour rule, as the timing fits perfectly.

Its incredible and embarrassing to the profession that this 12 hour rule should be used to bash THY as a company. Pilots are their own worst enemies, those thinking along the lines that THY is a third world company should return to their mobiles and continue with Whatsup, Facebook Viber and all the "essential" and " important" priorities they have.. truly pathetic ,:mad:

20 years. Under EASA you'll have a legal responsibility, so i'm afraid to say that Commuters do have to take responsibility e.g. if they drive 3hrs before and the contract says 90 mins you are required to make local arrangements.
You'll find that Airlines with approved FRMS in UK for example have commuting protocols. This is as much to protect the airline as the employee e.g. driving home after a long duty - OK you might not do what the protocol says but then crew members (professional) responsibilities come into play.
Then 737mgm comments are highlighted :\

What contract? There is no such thing in THY (as far as I'm aware) and neither in any other Airline I've worked for previous. Same as my layovers. What I do is my business. I could go on a 24 hour excursion and come to work absolutely exhausted, but I've had the "minimum rest".

Stop trying to justify these BS company regulations. I make sure I'm well rested before work, hence why I sign and accept the responsibility that I'm fit. I don't need a nanny to see I've had adequate rest and been in my room for the previous 12 hours. What is it with this industry? Full of idiots ruining the job and putting more and more pressures and responsibilities on crews, yet taking away all freedoms and decisions!

The 12 hours rule does make sense from a point of getting rest, but why the :mad: does it seem we are the only ones playing a game where we get adequate rest (and of course held accountable). The schedules these days are beyond ridiculous. I only wish the Airlines took a Pilots rest seriously. They don't...Period!! Safety is our number 1 priority (BS)... as long as it doesn't cost us money or resources!

Very easy solution. If you, the Airline, require me to be at the base 12 hours before for "safety", then you can put me "on the clock" and pay me for my time. If you're not willing to do that, then P.. Off and leave me to make my own decisions regarding my well being, safety and rest schedule!

It's a two way street...well, it should be anyway!

twentyyearstoolate,

Well said ! ! ! :D :ok:

Does Ryanair, which id say around 50% of its pilots commute not have a rule where you cannot get the last flight from you're home to base? so say you have a 0600 report at base and you live around STN there are two flights a day to you're base one at 0900 and then another say 1800, you must get the flight the day before at 0900 making the 12 hour Turkish rule basically the same.... yet you rarely hear of Ryanair commuters complaining.

Considering all airlines will be required to carry out a fatigue risk assessment, only time will tell...Of course, crew do not do themselves any favours, if one considers the assessment carried out by a large orange outfit using active monitoring, it was found at times people should be " resting" they were highly active! The company argued sufficient " rest time" was provided, this was never in doubt, the issue was what people were doing during their allocated " rest" time:rolleyes:

20 something
Quiet common in the UK for crews to be contracted to live within 90 mins base or to make available resting place if not. Been in place 20-30 years so nothing new
Come to work absolutely exhausted, P... Off etc - Professional Pilot or Cowboy:\

it was found at times people should be " resting" they were highly active! The company argued sufficient " rest time" was provided, this was never in doubt, the issue was what people were doing during their allocated " rest" time

Pilots on a tight 5/3 roster; sometimes away from home. You have a 14.00 report on day 1 after only 2 days at home. On the morning of day 1 on duty at home base do you:

1. have a gentle breakfast, relax, rest & report for duty 30 mins early due to BS
45 mins report/preflight planning schedule.
2. have normal breakfast 09.00, play 9 holes golf, lunch and arrive eager for work 1.00hr before STD.
3. wake up at 07.00, take kids to school, kiss wife goodbye to work, do morning shopping, load dishwasher & washing m/c, wash car and then get dressed for work and report 15mins earlier than required.
4. Wake up at 07.00 as wife takes kids to school; try to sleep longer; get up at 09.00; mow the lawn; take the car to car wash; make lunch & go to work at 13.00 for 11hr duty day.

Spoilt for choice really.

Mr. Angry in a hurry,

You are free to depart from any place to your PRO's place in the UK. Quiet or loud, all up to you. Lecturing from behind your keyboard with your "30" years experience. Any body with "your" experience punches through your "experience". While understanding wisdom from other writers, like respectfully Mr. 20years2late , cheers 20 "something" SIR.

RAT 5,

5. wake up at 04:00, leave home, no kiss Goodbye because she is snoring, kiss the dog Goodbye ( that is appreciated at least ) drive 1 hr to an airport, take a flight (sitting in the back) home-base, arrive several hrs before report & try & figure out how to waste the hrs available after going to the hotel to dump the stuff for the "week away" (being very grateful of the flexibility shown to check in at 10 in the morning) . . . . . that sounds average for me.

The alternative ? waste another day OFF by being at a place of work where you do not have life/family.

Mr Angry from Purely:

Professional Pilot or Cowboy??!! Well, as a professional Pilot, as I certainly am, you imply I should be responsible and get the required rest.

This is my point entirely. I do, AND I commute.

From another thread you posted on:

I'm sat in business class sleeping!!! I guess that's dangerous too ?!

You really are an Angry from Purely !

If you signed for 18000 TL and now getting 21000 TL basic,you did get a pay RISE,if the LIRA is going to hell,you still got a pay rise in TL!
They are advertising a pay RISE in TL not in USD or EUR or whatever currency you use at home.

Thanks Captain Obvious!

And BTW, we did not get a pay rise like they advertised. A pay rise for inflation is hardly a pay rise now is it:ugh:

De Facto, I find it hard to rationalise your defence of the Smoke and Mirrors and deceit this company has shown.

Maybe you could get a job in Zimbabwe and claim some really amazing pay rises ;)