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Thanks Dornier, much appreciated. That second test sounds like one by COMPASS. I recall doing that around 8 years ago at OAA not CTC.
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No shortage of Airbus P2......hope that was sarcastic :ok:
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Attended the selection on Friday - did anyone on here get through? - I've yet to hear anything back... not feeling too hopeful!
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+1 Plastic787
Appears I'm not good enough to fly or to serve either. Alas, good luck to the remainder. |
Don't give up hope if you haven't heard anything.
When I did BA selection some of my colleagues got a positive answer within hours whereas it took a few days for me to get a yes. Borderline candidates perhaps... |
It took me almost two and a half weeks to receive a yes from BA when I went through initial selection. 2 weeks for the sim result.
Be patient, because it's a HUGE prerequisite if you are serious on BA. The whole thing takes time and you can still end up with nothing even if you pass through the hoop jumping. Good luck |
I'm excluded on the basis of stupid tests of limited relevance aimed squarely at those with no experience. If these tests are so flawless then why the need for a sim assessment? But like the Murphy's.. It's their train set after all. BA is peculiar, a law unto itself, but, as has been mentioned, it is their train set and you have to play by their rules. No system is ideal but the selection does tend to provide BA with a fairly uniform and reliable product with very few oddballs. it may not be everyone's cup of tea but it does seem to be what BA wants. |
Sorry you failed to pass the assessment
Your arguments or otherwise as to BA's choice of how they assess potential recruits are irrelevant - BA believe they ARE relevant and you were trying to join BA, BA were not trying to headhunt you, therefore their assessment of relevance of tests or otherwise is the only opinion that counts. It does not matter how good you have been told you are previously - you failed this assessment and recruitment process, and I'm sorry that is the case. BA are looking for whatever it is they look for and you must not have displayed enough of that quality. It's a bit like the old RAF pilot assessment, the are a great many of very talented and gifted pilots who failed this, it does not make them any less gifted or able, it just shows they did not display whatever talents the RAF were looking for. I am truly sorry for any one who has put their hat in the ring for this recruitment and has got through to the assessment days and been rejected, it must be unpleasant in the extreme to be turned down. That rejection though does not invalidate the recruitment and assessment process. |
At the risk of coming in half way through the conversation here........
I'm not sure I would describe BA's selection process as tough. I think the candidates that BA want fit a certain mould and have the potential to obtain a particular skill-set. Looking at myself and some other flight crew colleagues , we are certainly not " gifted, natural pilots", but possess other skills that BA are looking for. Apologies to the couple of ex Red Arrow guys we have flying for us, but we are not necessarily looking for 3500 ex display or test pilots. Just ordinary people that achieve the BA standard. All IMHO. |
Anyone heard anything from the assesment days this week yet?
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It does sound a bit bitter though Plastic. Gave it a go, didn't make it, apparently you didn't show what they were looking for. Sure it doesn't make you a less able pilot, but you just might not be making their grade in whatever they're looking for. And they look for whatever they look for.
I still have to go and do the first day. I've passed it before (screwed it on the sim seven years ago when in flight school), but definitely might not make it again now. I'm not going to hold it against them. You do what you can and see where it ends up. I'm most definitely not going to view a potential rejection as somehow a statement of my quality as a professional and as a pilot. Failing anything always sucks because normally you set out to succeed but come on, it's still just a job and if you would have passed a highly doubt you would have been debating the merits of the assessment program on this forum. |
I wouldn't worry about too much Plastic.
I've been deemed suitable to fly BA's planes twice now........still not wearing the uniform and now don't even meet the criteria to even apply this time! The BA recruitment process is the most protracted, inefficient and just damn right ridiculous process there is, so it's no wonder why good pilots don't get in and others do. The only purpose it serves is to degrade the achievement of getting into the UK's flag carrier airline as it's based on small percentage of skill, and a large percentage on luck, timing and paperwork. |
It’s easier to quantify differences between candidates with aptitude tests than anything else, and I suspect that’s the reason the tests are carried out in addition to the simulator assessments. If there were only x available jobs and x + 30 candidates met the minimum requirements in everything, how would you objectively determine who was going to make it and who wasn’t? Using the scores obtained in the aptitude tests is a reliable way of making the decision; even if what they are measuring is not raw piloting ability or necessarily any use whatsoever on the job.
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My turn soon :\
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I have not applied BA myself, however I do agree regarding the nonsense of the Aptitude tests.
These tests does slightly favour younger people, I know from past experience, these set of skills requires more a quick fresh brain, than actual set of amazing skills! Set a 10 year old child, who is a computer game wizzard to try to perform these tests, I am pretty sure he will outperform most able pilots with massive margins! I have seen some of these tests, and played around with some of them too. These cross hair test can be practised so many places now, and based on this should not be a valid test, as practice makes master, no doubt! Play, Repeat, Sleep, Play, Sleep, Repeat! Enough times, and you will master this multi - tasking test! So what does this say about the applicant, if he has practised for 3 weeks before he arrived? You need to understand the reason these tests exists, it is because somebody claims to have an innovative idea where they claim that this will provide the best candidates for such recruitment. An HR company has sold the idea, that this will help get the best people! Will it? Maybe, maybe not! There is no positive proof that it works or not! But there is one winner, the HR company that provided and made these tests! Money money money! |
I don't fly for BA, but would you care to explain this:
so it's no wonder why good pilots don't get in and others do. How exactly do you define this? That's a bit disrespectful isn't it? |
Psychometric tests are, unfortunately, a very blunt tool. As noted above, they can be practiced...ensuring skewed results.
But...they cut recruitment costs significantly when there are thousands upon thousands of suitable applicants. The tests will predict outcomes with reasonable efficacy over a large sample size but sometimes get it very wrong. This is where a competent and well resourced recruitment department will use a human touch to rule in (or as importantly, out), candidates that otherwise did not score within the required parameters. The tests will always keep some excellent pilots from joining an airline and unfortunately allow some mis-hires through the front door! But that's life in general, isn't it? No one said it would be fair! |
I don't fly for BA, but would you care to explain this:
Quote: so it's no wonder why good pilots don't get in and others do. How exactly do you define this? That's a bit disrespectful isn't it? sorry, something going on with the 'quote' function... but with regards to the above post, surely folk who might have been in a hold pool that was 'dissolved' (as one of the previous guys said) or who have never had the opportunity to apply for BA because they were in the 'wrong place at the wrong time' e.g sept 11th or financial crisis 2009 (and now flying for numerous airlines around the world e.g emirates, cathay etc) may lay claim they are of an 'appropriate fit' for BA but have been excluded. These folk may no longer wish to join BA but we are merely debating the merit of the assessment process. On the other hand when BMI was absorbed by BA, there were folk in BMI from P2F schemes... who correct me if i'm wrong never had to do an assessment with BA. Of course that's not to say, they are of an inferior standard or wouldn't get and pass an assessment if they applied directly but they were in the right place at the right time - this is just one example. On another point what annoys me, is people bang on about the 'required fit'/stereotype and that personality is essential i.e skills you can train personality you cannot, so it suggests as long as you meet the minimums (and our aspirations are to achieve the best we can, over and above the minimums!) there is so much more that they are looking for. However Stage 1 really seems to be a bit random and an elimination process as BA or any other company for that matter simply wouldn't have the resources to interview everyone.... so if you happen to be on assessment where everyone was performing highly then you might get chopped even if you scored very highly and there was someone else better than you. The response is always the same though... 'you failed to demonstrate the skills BA is looking for' - could handle it if they just said you did well but there was someone else better than you! So while personality is important you might not even be given the chance to demonstrate this through interview, even if you meet the minimum standards - you're being judge purely on tests despite having an 'x' year incident free flying record... Anyway that's life, it doesn't just happen in Aviation assessments. |
I know plenty of more than able pilots, that would fit the BA mould and much experience, who would be happy to join BA!
However from the start of making an essay and Aptitude tests before you get to the interview stage, they are not even bothered to apply! There is a lot to be desired, and we do not live in a perfect world! That some basic computer game from the 80's decides what way you career is heading is for me beyond a joke! :ugh: But those are the rules of the game! I seriously doubt that there was somebody from background from aviation who seriously promoted these obsolete games, however there are HR companies who needs to make money, so they create such products first to the companies for their recruitment, and then training packages to the applicants! End of the day, it all comes down to MONEY! |
Interestingly, people don’t seem to complain nearly as much about having to sit maths or physics tests. Surely if you can fly a plane and do all the required calculations in a simulator then maths and physics tests are as redundant as computer-based aptitude tests at determining your ability to do the job? I mean, is it any more valid that you can calculate the volume of a hemisphere than it is that you can demonstrate positional awareness in an unfamiliar situation? I’d argue not, and yet it’s the aptitude test that gets slated.
But we can debate the efficacy of aptitude tests until we’re Smurf-faced. Whichever way you look at it, it clearly works for BA as there will be no shortage of high quality candidates for them to pick and choose from as they wish. So if it’s whoever can jump on the most Goombas wins then that’s what it is; and if you want to join them then you should practise doing just that. :) |
Come on guys, it's just a way of picking the 'best of whats on offer. Just because you didn't get invited to stage 2 it doesn't make you a bad pilot at all.
It doesn't mean BAs standards are the highest of all airlines either, its just a way for them to fairly cut down the numbers. I'm sure there are loads of guys who didn't even get an invite to assessment who are great operators and would be an asset to BA and its customers. I'd be a bit pissed off and perhaps even anti-BA if I was un successful too, its a perfectly natural human reaction. |
I'm not in recruitment but from conversations from those that are, I'm led to believe that the aptitude and psychometric tests are used as discriminants in borderline applicants. You're not being selected on the basis of these tests but if there are doubts about you at the interview stage, they'll look at the tests to assist in their decision-making process. The truth is that if you can't be bothered with the aptitude tests, there's probably a lot of other stuff about BA you won't like either so perhaps it's best for all parties. Doesn't mean to say you're an inferior pilot but BA want more than just pilots these days. They are painful but since it's uneconomic to put every applicant through a full flight sim, BA obviously consider them useful. Furthermore, these tests have been running for many years now. If BA was unhappy with the results, don't you think they'd have ceased using them long ago?
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I do enjoy all this harping on about cost and money. If the ATOs charge a couple of hundred bob to sit the same process, why not BA? They are not using the aptitude test to determine whether or not you can fly. Your EASA licence and type rating(s) demonstrate that already.
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How exactly do you define this? That's a bit disrespectful isn't it? With regard to the actual process itself. I'm not even knocking the 'aptitude' side of it nor the 'essay questions' - I've passed them twice, they seem to agree with me! It's just the way BA go about their business, for instance: This was my experience, twice. And I'm sure there are thousands of guys reading this thread while constantly logging on to the BA website because they received a generic email saying: "Congrats you got through stage one, pick a date for stage 2, but wait there are no dates, but don't worry we will release them soon, but we can't tell you when, or when you need to check, or how many there will be, so just spend every 10 minutes every day looking, and if you are flying the day we release them, well tough luck but they will be gone by the time you land" And if you are lucky to be in front of computer on the day, get to stage 2 and pass it, the next email comes: "Congrats you got through stage two, pick a date for the SIM, but wait there are no slots, but don't worry we will release them soon, but we can't tell you when, or when you need to check, or how many there will be, so just spend every 10 mins every day looking, and if you are flying the day we release them, well tough luck but they will be gone by the time you land" Wow must really be lucky, I'm at my computer again! Go to the SIM, and get another email: "Congrats you passed the SIM, we would like to welcome you to BA, but wait, there are no firm jobs for you, because it takes pilots so long to get through our recruitment process, we have to recruit so far in advance we don't actually know our requirements when we open recruitment, we just sort of wing it. But don't worry, there will be a seat for you to fill on one of our fleets soon, can't tell you when though, but should be within the next 12 months, so if you wouldn't mind terribly putting your career on hold while we figure out what's going on that would be great" 12 months later: "Hi us at BA again, sorry we have not been in touch we've been busy brainstorming, networking, touching base & conferencing ideas about what our recruitment plan is. Our official policy is to make guys do the whole drawn out process again, we have thought about making it a bit more streamlined, however we are BA, this is how we have always done it, and even though it doesn't work, we are gonna do it this way anyway. But we are gonna do you favour, we are gonna extend our policy to 18 months & keep you hanging that little bit longer because we are gentlemanly like that. Be in touch soon, cheerio!" 6 months later : "Hi, us at BA again! This big recruitment picture is god awfully tough to work out, but we are getting there slowly, however things move quickly in aviation and BA doesn't, so I'm awfully sorry to tell you we have done nothing but waste your time, and we will now pretend we have no record of you, so if we ever do work out this big picture, you will have to go through it all again, but we don't mind, it's been so long since you did the tests, you've probably forgotten all the answers, anyway all the best" 3 months later: No email from BA, why would they. But a text from a colleague "Mate BA just called, they miscalculated their numbers, I start next week because I didn't get a SIM slot till 3 months after you did so I'm still in the pool and that whole 3 months means I'm still BA material and you are not." Repeat the above for 100's of pilots. Now I'm not suggesting BA recruitment do the above on purpose, that's life and you should just pull up your socks and get on with it, and I'm definitely not the only Ppruner with a BA sob story. But I hope it goes someway to showing others why ex-pool Pilots feel frustrated with the process and why there is an overwhelming feeling of more luck than skill needed, above the normal "Well I didn't pass the aptitude test, so they must be stupid" comments. |
I concur with Flyingtincans. The whole process can be agony; especially when you push yourself all the way to the top and get cast aside. You then watch pay points change, pilots from another airline get absorbed (a legal requirement) and numerous FPP cadets fill spaces. There is doom and gloom surrounding any future DEP requirements, you are told that you would have to reapply and sit the whole process again, but only if deemed eligible. However BA don't foresee DEP requirements until late 2015; then what? A dozen bus rated guys get offers at the turn of the year and recruitment opens again in the summer! This happens and happens again even though the pilot recruiters appear embarrassed about it when asked. Other people simply walk through with no issue whatsoever. I, however, remain reluctant about putting myself or my family through that episode again. Not sour grapes, just frustration speaking. Plus, at my age, it just wouldn't be worth it anymore.
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You then watch pay points change, pilots from another airline get absorbed (a legal requirement) If you really want to work for BA go and get yourself a 320 rating rather than whinging about the selection, then you can get a head start - If thats where you want to work. |
If you can pass the rating? Really? Are you trying to somehow suggest that BA's training is so inadequate that professional, experienced pilots regularly fail to convert on to a different type? Spare us the nonsense please. If you've jumped through all the hoops, it's simply not fair to 'wipe the slate clean' and delete the entire hold pool after an arbitrary period of time. It's not the candidates fault BMI got took over and his job offer got delayed.
The people that passed the selection should have had a job offer when there was place for them. Whether it took one, four or five years. That would have been only respectful to people that took the time, effort and energy to go through all that stuff in the first place. It would have only been right to leave it up to the candidate to make the decision whether, after all that time, they should accept a job offer or not. |
Its not the BMI pilots fault he never started with BA !
Im not talking about how good the training is at BA as to if he would pass the TR but as to if he was able to pass the TR. I have known previous colleagues who got into BA but did not pass the 320 TR. |
Yesterday I did my assesment and got a positive reply within two hours. Can anyone tell me anything about the personal interview and the group exercise? I would really appreciate any help. Feel free to post it here or send me a private message.
Thanks in advance! :) |
Recently did the tests and despite 2 weeks of preperation, I felt I performed quite bad. The maths test time pressure was incredible and the paper we had quite tricky compared to the questions mentioned on here (tricky given the time). The first capacity test is the same one that BA have been using for years, which seems to get more and more difficult with age! This time around I got more misses than hits. This is the same test I've passed twice in the past. The second one was enjoyable and relatively easy compared to the first. Verbal Reasoning test I found bearable but I prepared for it quite well. Expecting a negative next week.
Good luck the rest of you. A special thanks to Dornier228 and a-ricky-town. |
Balvenie
You obviously didn't bother reading my post properly and took what you wanted from it. Completely misinterpreted by yourself. I take it you must have skipped verbal reasoning on your way into the holy grail? I have no desire to get myself a 320 rating unless a future employer decides it is necessary. Then it is up to them to provide and in turn up to me to pass. Presently, I no longer have the desire to to be assessed for BA again so in that context I no longer wish to work for them. Due to my age, my current position and many other factors, I no longer feel BA offers what it once did (as stated in my previous post). A lot changes in 3 years. I never described the pay point change as MY paypoint. It's something that happened after I passed selection and in turn made things a little more unattractive. Neither did I suggest that the bmi pilots shouldn't have been 'tuped' across. I don't get where the anti-bmi sentiment comes from? Yes it contributed to the death of the pool, but business is business and the law surrounding mergers & acquisitions is there to protect. Simply coincidental fate. Your response was akin to that of a scolded child lashing out at something they had no desire to understand. I merely suggest the process is frustrating and can leave you with zero reward. I'm not the only person to admit this. It is demanding, stressful and costly. It carries quite a bit of emotional baggage. Nothing prepares you for the elation of achieving something well sought after, only to be dropped with little chance of return. You throw the dice, you take the chances. You know a hold pool position isn't a job offer but 100s of other DEPs were hired, so you'll get your chance too; right? Yet there's a million and one variables that you may have to contend with. It isn't straightforward. |
Bmi did not have any P2F pilots. Yes they ran a training program but these pilots were not employed by bmi and once their training was complete they had to seek employment elsewhere. The program was stopped in 2010 / early 2011 long before BA took over.
Fair or not the recruitment process is what it is. |
So many people on here seem to write bad about airlines and hr departments
This site is to give help and give advice Does anybody have an idea of what the latest BA tests have in them this month Can any body write some questions down of what they remember please. Guys lets all help each other get our dream jobs wherever they are. Thanks |
Bmi did not have any P2F pilots. Yes they ran a training program but these pilots were not employed by bmi and once their training was complete they had to seek employment elsewhere These the guys that paid £60k+ to Cpt C for a TR and line training? Sounds like P2F to me! If they weren't employed to fly bmi planes, what would you call these pilots? Didn't BMI then employ some of these folk just a few months before the BA take over? Same guys now flying ba mainline.. The programme was stopped in 2010 / early 2011 long before BA took over |
The point I am making ref the P2F is that no pilot was on a P2F course during or shortly before the take over and then merged into BA under illusion they were an employee when in fact they were P2F. All pilots who were part of the merger were fully employed bmi pilots. Yes bmi ran a P2F scheme for a limited number and a limited time.
Did bmi have ex P2F pilots who then subsequently got employed by bmi later? Yes they did. Some were on the 737 in the mid 90s and are now captains and yes I think 2 possibly 3 of the pilots on the scheme on the airbus gained employment with bmi after serving time at other airlines. The program stopped end of 2010 very early 2011 but the merger did not get announced till late 2011 and confirmed in April 2012. I think the few your refer to who were taken on months before the merger were DEP and that equates to one very capable pilot. I also don't think the P2F scheme was anything like 60k. Good luck to them, right place right time and I would suspect hard earned. Either by work or by cash whichever is your viewpoint |
Other people have answered that question for me, so I won't bother repeating what's already been said. With regard to the actual process itself. I'm not even knocking the 'aptitude' side of it nor the 'essay questions' - I've passed them twice, they seem to agree with me! It's just the way BA go about their business, for instance: This was my experience, twice. And I'm sure there are thousands of guys reading this thread while constantly logging on to the BA website because they received a generic email saying: "Congrats you got through stage one, pick a date for stage 2, but wait there are no dates, but don't worry we will release them soon, but we can't tell you when, or when you need to check, or how many there will be, so just spend every 10 minutes every day looking, and if you are flying the day we release them, well tough luck but they will be gone by the time you land" And if you are lucky to be in front of computer on the day, get to stage 2 and pass it, the next email comes: "Congrats you got through stage two, pick a date for the SIM, but wait there are no slots, but don't worry we will release them soon, but we can't tell you when, or when you need to check, or how many there will be, so just spend every 10 mins every day looking, and if you are flying the day we release them, well tough luck but they will be gone by the time you land" Wow must really be lucky, I'm at my computer again! Go to the SIM, and get another email: "Congrats you passed the SIM, we would like to welcome you to BA, but wait, there are no firm jobs for you, because it takes pilots so long to get through our recruitment process, we have to recruit so far in advance we don't actually know our requirements when we open recruitment, we just sort of wing it. But don't worry, there will be a seat for you to fill on one of our fleets soon, can't tell you when though, but should be within the next 12 months, so if you wouldn't mind terribly putting your career on hold while we figure out what's going on that would be great" 12 months later: "Hi us at BA again, sorry we have not been in touch we've been busy brainstorming, networking, touching base & conferencing ideas about what our recruitment plan is. Our official policy is to make guys do the whole drawn out process again, we have thought about making it a bit more streamlined, however we are BA, this is how we have always done it, and even though it doesn't work, we are gonna do it this way anyway. But we are gonna do you favour, we are gonna extend our policy to 18 months & keep you hanging that little bit longer because we are gentlemanly like that. Be in touch soon, cheerio!" 6 months later : "Hi, us at BA again! This big recruitment picture is god awfully tough to work out, but we are getting there slowly, however things move quickly in aviation and BA doesn't, so I'm awfully sorry to tell you we have done nothing but waste your time, and we will now pretend we have no record of you, so if we ever do work out this big picture, you will have to go through it all again, but we don't mind, it's been so long since you did the tests, you've probably forgotten all the answers, anyway all the best" 3 months later: No email from BA, why would they. But a text from a colleague "Mate BA just called, they miscalculated their numbers, I start next week because I didn't get a SIM slot till 3 months after you did so I'm still in the pool and that whole 3 months means I'm still BA material and you are not." Repeat the above for 100's of pilots. Now I'm not suggesting BA recruitment do the above on purpose, that's life and you should just pull up your socks and get on with it, and I'm definitely not the only Ppruner with a BA sob story. But I hope it goes someway to showing others why ex-pool Pilots feel frustrated with the process and why there is an overwhelming feeling of more luck than skill needed, above the normal "Well I didn't pass the aptitude test, so they must be stupid" comments. Life takes it's turns and doors open and close but BA recruitment policy and planning does not shower the company in glory!! Not professional or fair or capable or honourable and occasionally quite underhand asking candidates to hush hush to achieve a goal. That attitude wouldn't stand up in their own recruitment process!! |
Life takes it's turns and doors open and close but BA recruitment policy and planning does not shower the company in glory!! Not professional or fair or capable or honourable and occasionally quite underhand asking candidates to hush hush to achieve a goal. That attitude wouldn't stand up in their own recruitment process!! This is not a criticism of any individual in the recruitment team - nor necessarily the wider BA Mgmt team. But the size of BA, the various departments and processes mean the above experience is typical. As an example I could try and describe the time and efforts to move one clearly abandoned car from the crew car park (which is over-subscribed as it is). Years this has been going on, and I think it is still there :rolleyes: |
NOD
If you cannot cope with a seemingly illogical and drawn out recruitment process, then by default it has achieved it's aim It reflects BA well .....And as for telling the tale of that (infamous) car, don't try.......if you tell that story to anyone who has never worked for BA "they'd never believe you" (spoken with a Yorkshire accent...:E) |
I was in Munich checking my texts during a turnround and one was a text to contact my wife who said Meadowbank had rung asking if I would coming over from Berlin for an interview. . I'd got one more sector Munich- Tegel so I landed in Berlin and deadheaded on the BA.
I did day 1 at Meadow Bank, and at the close of play, I was told there was an empty slot on day 2 the next day which would save me coming back from Berlin. What was there not to like about that. At the end of Day 2, the Captain and Human remains guy just made things very simple - subject to the medical (the next day) I would get an offer by the weekend and could I give notice to my company straight away. Yes I said, with the offer letter in my hand I would but not until. That was Thursday and the offer arrived on Friday. I was in Cranebank four weeks later and type rated on the Classic about ten weeks after joining. The -400 followed about 12 months later as promised. It seems things have changed a bit since then. All I can say is get in as soon as possible, no matter on what type, and get on the Seniority List. |
Ahh, the days before online applications, recruitment profiles & automated emails. Much more personal. Imagine having to phone someone to invite them to an interview/assessment! :-)
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