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-   -   BA Direct Entry Pilot. (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/538503-ba-direct-entry-pilot.html)

Harry palmer 24th Apr 2014 09:18

BA Direct Entry Pilot.
 
Any word or rumour of when DEP may reopen? Posted on ppjn a shortage of people on the Airbus fleet!

SinBin 24th Apr 2014 10:18

Shortage due to people placed disproportionately on new and running down fleets, surpluses on some fleets, shortages on others, it's being addressed internally first and with FPP cadets. After this is anybody's guess. No rumours of DEP recruitment yet.

Nelson15 24th Apr 2014 12:58

I wouldn't imagine any before 2015 at earliest.

NigelOnDraft 24th Apr 2014 13:23

The way things are headed you could look here:
"BA" SH T&Cs

wiggy 24th Apr 2014 13:26


Shortage due to people placed disproportionately on new and running down fleets,
Agreed

The management will tell you that overall the company is not short of pilots, so there's not a cat in h**** chance of Head Office sanctioning DEP recruitment any time soon.

NOD

That was very naughty :E...but perhaps nearer the truth than some would like to think :bored:

BASHLH 5th May 2014 10:24

BA DEP's
 
According to a couple of sources BA will be opening up DEP again for A320, 500hrs on type to start in Jan 2015.... Keep your eyes peeled on the recruitment website! Info from in the CRC yesterday confirmed by LC head of recruitment.

This is a fact! Please don't start the interrogation of how do you know BASHLH... It's true 2 of my mates heard it yesterday from the horses mouth & they wouldn't lie! Apparently it's not a secret so I'm happy to post here. We are very short at the mo on the Airbus, thank goodness is all I can say! This is great news for everyone, either in BA or out! :)

wiggy 6th May 2014 18:23

Problem is that as far as the company is concerned overall BA is not short of pilots and is planning to move bodies from other "in surplus" fleets onto the bus to cover the shortfall. This is currently causing a certain amount of heated debate in another place and suggests to me that despite our wishes the company is not about to rush out and hire DEPs.

Current Airbus manning issues aside there's a lot going on at the moment that could have an impact on manning next year, e.g. Possible changes to Bid line (our scheduling agreement) and there's still much work to be done on the impact of the EASA FTLs so I'm not sure anyone in BA management is really in a position at the moment to predict if/when they are going to allowed to recruit. The business case has to be approved by IAG and there's no sign of that happening at the moment. What anybody heard at a management briefing session at, say, a ground training day might be wishful thinking by a BA manager.......

All that said there's obviously no harm in being prepared and it would be nice to see BA back in the market for DEPs so fingers crossed.

BASHLH 6th May 2014 23:28

Wiggy, I take your comments well & don't disagree with anything you have said... Except with the CAP levels on all fleets the way they are, it doesn't take much working out to see as a company we are short! As an average across all fleets CAP is 2.5 hrs over (yes that's in the BLR's) however it's unsustainable! The company line 'Bidline is not fit for purpose' rubbish is all to do with the current pay & BLR negotiations IMVHO. I'm sure BLR's need the 21st century tweak but at the same time Bidline works great with another 50 on each status!

People reading my previous post... BA will begin interviewing in July for DEP's to start around Jan 15. A320 500 hrs on type... FACT!

I will publicly apologise if this turns out not to be true but I wouldn't have put it here in the first place if I wasn't 100% confident that this is the case! I've just got back off a trip today & my skipper said they had been talking in passing to LC on Sunday and was told to expect to be contacted ref interviews as they are on the interview team. As I've said it's going to be common knowledge soon enough anyway so I'm happy to post here as my friend said LC said it wasn't a secret!

If people don't want to take my post seriously & want a career in BA then that's no sweat off my nose... I'm genuinely trying to give my fellow colleagues in other airlines a heads up if they want to be in BA. I've told all my mates about it if they fancied giving it a crack. The last campaign in Nov 2010 was I believe closed for applications within 4/5 days as so many applied it crashed the system. At least if your looking for the application it may be just the luck you need to get in quick. Remember BA isn't for everyone & it's not the be all & end all! However I enjoy the security & hopefully the long term career prospects that BA offers.

I hope this helps, & good luck to all when it comes around!

Callsign Kilo 7th May 2014 08:17


All that said there's obviously no harm in being prepared and it would be nice to see BA back in the market for DEPs so fingers crossed.
Its admirable that you are positive about the future hiring of DEPs, however I hope to God that, if it is the case, then BA get it right. It sounds like the same old uncertainty regarding DEPs exists. One department fighting their corner and another fighting against. What I'm sure LC will want to prevent is another undesirable hold pool situation. The last two recruitment drives were quite unlucky for a number of candidates who made it through selection. I'll add myself to that number. Although I'm not Bus rated and don't see myself being invited to reapply because of that fact, I do sincerely hope that any further DEP campaign is a complete success. From my experience, the guys within pilot recruitment are a good bunch and will want to ensure that this is the case.

wiggy 7th May 2014 09:34


I will publicly apologise if this turns out not to be true
Don't worry about it, there's obviously something going around because I see someone (not management) has made a claim on the company forum that he/she has heard interviewing will start next month.

I know our union Posting and Promotion guys are generally pretty well informed and they are adamant that IAG will not sanction BA starting recruiting on to any fleet until every fleet is running at it's correct manning level. Maybe on the quiet the company thinks even when it's finished playing musical chairs at the end of the year it will still be short on the Airbus and there is a business case for starting an interview process this summer.

As I said, fingers crossed.

Harry palmer 7th May 2014 13:25

BA DEP
 
Well said EMB145-LR.

bex88 7th May 2014 21:46

A friend of mine has been force drafted or attempted force draft 5 times since the start of April.

In my view if your interested keep your eyes peeled but not sure LC or anyone else can tell you 100% until the button is pushed. It's all positive signs.

Can we send anyone who provides false information to west base car parking as a punishment :}

wiggy 9th May 2014 15:27

Today's very hot rumour is interviews in July for those already A320 rated. Sorry if that's not good news for some....

Wirbelsturm 9th May 2014 15:44

[rumour] DEP interviews in July for start dates potentially in Jan 2015. [/rumour]

I'm sure everyone is aware that the troll to gain airbus rated pilots is the obvious first step as it reduces BA's training risk.

If they either don't get enough or not enough of a good enough quality then they will undoubtedly cast the net wider.

BASHLH 9th May 2014 17:01

It's on our BALPA Forum page now. The interviewers have been notified... July interviews for JAN 15 start dates, 320 500hrs on type!

Glad I got this correct to begin with, but then again I knew it was true haha! :ok: Good luck to everyone applying over the next few months!:)

737 Jockey 9th May 2014 17:49

I'm really interested to know how many easyJet pilots would consider leaving to join BA? Strange question you might ask.... But the older easy contracts are pretty decent, and the newer BA contract less so, 34 point pay scale etc.

Would be interested to know, contract/age/time at easy/reason to join BA.

Just for fun :ok:

Good luck!

Dct_Mopas 9th May 2014 19:30

I'm with 737_Jockey,

The majority of EZY FO's are now permanently employed and reasonably happy on good salaries with a prospect of (industry wise) a quick command.

Saying that those I know are pretty much all in regional bases, why move to London? Different story entirely for LGW based guys....

Oh and to answer 737_Jockey's query: UK FO/ 29 / 4 years at EZY / not a chance I'm moving company now (asked me a year or so ago things would have been different)

THRILLSEEKER 9th May 2014 19:51

Taken (sic) from the wannabes forum




I just did the Maths on the Finance, with some assumptions about time to command (ie 9 years at easyJet and 18 years at BA). These are based on Oxford's PARC Finances and exclude any tax implication of bond repayments, bonuses and differences in Interest Rates etc.

To summarise:
* There isn't much difference between BA and easyJet in the first 8 years.
* The big difference hits when you get your command at easyJet.
* In the 10 years where you are a Captain at easyJet vs SFO at BA, you accumulate 420k more in pay.
* After 30 years (which is when I would want to retire) the deficit is reduced to 200k.

For me, 1st Class Travel and Long Haul isn't such a big issue. I like my own bed and my own time zone. Likewise seniority is a big negative for me, I'd rather have weekends off when hopefully the kids are growing up than when I'm nearing retirement. Also I think the below highlights that your taking a 400k bet that BA is still around, needs Captains and the pay delta still exists in 10 years time. My preference is that I would rather have the cash in my pocket. The contract is a negative point, but one that I'm comfortable with. The regional point is a positive for me, not just within the UK but across Europe.

I also get your point about wanting to fly for BA. I agree that our generation has been brought up in an environment that people aspire to fly British Airways. Who knows if that will be the case in years to come?

So I think the easyJet MPL and the Future Pilot Program are both great initiatives. Your choice on which one is your preference does probably boil down to your Career aspirations of Long Haul vs Short Haul.

YEAR BA easyJet Deficit
1 45,425 38,750 6,675
2 50,704 38,000 19,379
3 55,982 57,006 18,355
4 63,372 70,396 11,331
5 69,707 70,396 10,642
6 72,874 70,396 13,119
7 75,513 70,396 18,236
8 65,842 70,396 13,682
9 68,171 121,005 -39,152
10 70,500 121,005 -89,656
11 72,830 121,005 -137,832
12 75,159 121,005 -183,678
13 77,488 121,005 -227,195
14 79,817 125,696 -273,074
15 82,146 125,696 -316,624
16 84,475 125,696 -357,845
17 86,805 125,696 -396,737
18 89,134 125,696 -433,299
19 131,035 125,696 -427,961
20 133,590 125,696 -420,067
21 136,146 125,696 -409,617
22 138,701 125,696 -396,612
23 141,256 125,696 -381,052
24 143,812 125,696 -362,936
25 146,367 125,696 -342,265
26 148,923 125,696 -319,039
27 151,478 125,696 -293,256
28 154,034 125,696 -264,919
29 156,589 125,696 -234,026
30 159,145 125,696 -200,578


Notes:
Payscales are based on pilotjobsnetworks and Future Pilot Program Presentation.
BA Drops at year 8 after the bond is repaid
For easyJet I assume 600 sectors per year (ie 150 working days, 4 sectors per day)
I include the current loyalty bonuses for easyJet ie 5, 10, 15 salary.
For BA, I assume a linear progression from paypoint 1 to paypoint 34.





A friend who is a SH FO LHR who has been with BA for 5 years thinks it will be 10-12 years from now till he will get his SH command!


Yikes

Harry palmer 9th May 2014 21:48

Not forgetting guys at Monarch, Thomas Cook and people out in the Middle East that may want to return home. I very much hope there is a need for non rated experienced people soon too.

NigelOnDraft 9th May 2014 22:15

Plastic78

Not trying to discourage you - you've thought it through and your reasons make sense if all stays "as is".

I would just check the master plan has included the possibility of:
  1. EASA FTLs making "commuting" even in LH impractical
  2. BA, maybe via a FRMS, making commuting "difficult" (maybe due 1 above)
  3. BA SH being killed off / outsourced / made intolerable
  4. BA LGW ditto
  5. CRA moving on from 65
You will join BA as ~#4000, with little planned recruitment after you - this DEP recruitment is a "panic" measure to a current crisis. Not only is there a very long queue of SH (S)FOs awaiting LH ahead of you, if either 3 or 4 become fact (some would say they will imminently, others will say they are already fact), then SH Capts will also join the queue for LH RHS.

It is no secret that various industrial negotiations are on-going, largely but not entirely targeted at SH. Apply by all means, but keep your ears and eyes very wide open, and delay as far as possible burning your current situation.

Hotel Mode 9th May 2014 22:38

Not sure about those Easy V BA salary figures, they seem considerably light for BA. They certainly don't include allowances or the FPA payment which could be considered part of basic these days. Roughly 20k PA down for a mid range long haul FO. Is it based on short haul pay scales? That's not a realistic profile in BA.

bigjarv 9th May 2014 23:01

Well would someone be able to give us the Ba pay scale and outline the extras? I got some planning to do!!!

EpsilonVaz 10th May 2014 00:49

Easy also has:


5% annual bonus on basic after 3 years
10% annual bonus on basic after 5 years
15% annual bonus on basic after 10 years


I think that will push up the easy earnings a fair bit (not to mention the other bonuses and share awards).


I know where my better half wants me to stay.

EllanVannin 10th May 2014 02:36

Sorry, but I too don't agree with the maths suggested. I took the plunge and left easyjet to join BA, and so am privy to the finer details of the pay scales of both outfits.

In addition to what has been mentioned already, there is a duty pay per hour away from base at BA. This is not fully taxable and results in roughly 500-800 pounds a month extra in take home pay (generally more on long haul than short haul).

My father in law is an experienced treasurer and chartered accountant. Prior to joining BA he crunched all the numbers for me (basic pay, fixed allowances, duty pay, bonuses, varying tax rates for different pay types, 34 point pay scale, higher pay for long haul vs short haul at BA, pension tax breaks etc etc), assuming a command at easyjet at circa 5 years, and BA at 25 years. This was based on DEP pay scales. With everything taken into account the career earnings came out very similar. Easyjet was roughly 5% ahead. That said, the current BA pension for new joiners pays in roughly 6 or 7 % more at BA than easyjet. So there's really not much in it.

Finance is only one part of the decision about whether BA is right for you. Frankly, you are not going to be on the breadline at either company. I agree with those that suggest it is not a clear cut decision these days but, if it is something that matters to you, I would say that I feel healthier and much less tired since I joined BA from easyjet. Consequently, I am much happier in my job and enjoy it more.

Horses for courses and all that.

Good luck to all those who decide to give the selection a go.

Plastic787 10th May 2014 06:25

Come on NigelOnDraft I appreciate this forum is more often than not doom and gloom but are we really now suggesting that BA short haul is about to be killed off? If that's the case then I'd just have to roll with the punches and go out to the sandpit I guess, not ideal but not a personal disaster. You'll do yourself into an early grave speculating about all the negative things that could happen to you! ;)

NigelOnDraft 10th May 2014 07:55

Hi Plastic

Sorry for trying to give you some advice ;)

At my point in my BA career, it's largely irrelevant. But I just fly with Airbus P2s, some of whom query their decision to join BA - and they've been in say 3 years.

BA SH is at risk of being "killed off", in BA pilot terms. Naturally not in brand terms. I suggest if you are serious about joining BA, you ask about the recent GMM and what was said about the BA SH career risks.

Whilst if either LGW or BA SH were "killed off" (e.g. wound down) I am sure BA/BALPA would try to avoid CRs, the processes followed would be in strict seniority order. A 2015 join date based on getting to BA LH for commuting / tax reasons might not be a great place to be :eek: 1500 people ahead of you in the queue for LH, and retirements running at say 10pa, is a long wait!

101325 10th May 2014 09:05

Whilst I believe it is good news that BA have decided to open recruitment again for DEP (all be it type rated candidates only), I am curious as to what might happen to those of us who are still ‘on hold’ for an interview from the last round of DEP recruitment conducted in 2012? My application is still active. I do not hold an airbus rating. Thoughts?

NigelOnDraft 10th May 2014 09:31


You mentioned 10 retirements/other losses per year out of a total of 4000 pilots? Are you trying to tell me BA has an attrition rate of 0.25%? Forgive me if I've missed something
It is in that order, albeit actual rate is hard to determine, and whether due the pilot's own choice, or "other factors" :oh: I suspect 10 is an under-estimate, but it is still tiny hence my caution over flying beyond 65 :ooh:

What might also be interesting is that there are approx as many "retirements" from P32L as there are "old f*rts" off LHS LH. Which partly accounts for the "panic" recruitment, and also might say something about life in BA as P32L - before the outcome of the WC talks, SH "business review" and round 2 of the SH bmi savings in 2015 :{

macdo 10th May 2014 09:54

It is all very well number crunching how much more you might make in one airline over another, but money is not everything in life.
I've been in this industry over 20 years and I find the happiest pilots are those that have good t&c, thats a given. But added to that, variety, choice and lifestyle play a big part in overall satisfaction. If you are looking at your whole career, working for an airline where you can change fleet, LH/SH and role is almost equally important to remuneration. For this reason, BA, while acknowledging that it is not the gold standard that it once was, is the best bet for a pilots career, IMHO.
I think it is also fairly pointless to predict who will be solvent in 25 years time, who, 25 years ago, would have predicted an industry like we have today?

bad bear 10th May 2014 10:19

I doubt that many pilots have a career as long as 40 years. Given a pilot work force of 3,500 that would suggest an average retirement of approx. 90 per year. The change of retirement date from 55 to 65 and the slow down it caused should work its way through the system very soon and retirements from age alone can be expected to return to normal in the near future. Sadly there are other factors such as death in service and severe illness that claim a few every year. Some pilots do leave to pursue other careers or change airline.

Plastic787, did any pilots actually get laid off by Flybe and when are they planing to recruit?

Callsign Kilo 10th May 2014 11:45

101325

In a word, nothing. I was in the last DEP hold pool and we were told that after our 18 month tenancy expired we would have to reapply and go through the entire process again. The last guys sank in the pool towards the middle of last year however, as I understand, a few Airbus guys were plucked at the turn of year for LGW. I don't see guys 'on hold' for interview being shown any preference, especially without the rating. Equally, I don't see anyone non-airbus who made it through to the pool last time round being shown any preference either.

Harry palmer 10th May 2014 23:20

Any ideas on the numbers required here? Is this a small fire fight or the start of a recruitment campaign again for experienced people, rated or non rated if needed.

Matey 10th May 2014 23:21

In reply to Macdo. Ts and Cs, variety, etc...sounds like a good advert for Thomson to me! Short haul 737, short,mid, longhaul on the 756 or pure longhaul on the 787. Part of the large TUI airlines group, and add to that private health, loss of licence etc and a 15% Company contribution to your pension scheme. Definitely worth considering when they recruit again.

Mooney12 11th May 2014 14:08

Hi all,

Good news for some that BA looks set to open some limited DEP recruitment.

Overall however, I think BA is far from the attractive option it used to be.

BA used to hoover up fo's from EZY for example. I fail to see why you would now leave EZY to join BA. I realise it's a difficult start at Easyjet, however, if the time to command there is 5/6/7 years, it makes a lot of financial sense to stay, especially if you have a few years under your belt there.

I believe an EZY captain gets a basic pay of £93k. Added to that, sector pay + loyalty bonus, you're looking at well over £100k. With the new 34 point payscales at BA, the ridiculous time to command, the uncertainty over shorthaul.. It'll take years to earn that.

There are BMI captains taking longhaul p1 slots on the 787 etc.. No senior captains retiring, the CRA of 65 looking set to be abolished.. A mountain of BMI fo's looking for longhaul p2 slots.. It is a real mountain to climb.

EpsilonVaz 11th May 2014 14:25

As someone else also mentioned, it's not just about the money.


If you want to do longhaul for the rest of your life, BA is for you. The majority of shorthaul are trips now (so I hear), so you might aswell be doing long haul.


I like being home most nights, I'm not a parent yet but I know that this will make a huge difference when I am.

Fursty Ferret 11th May 2014 15:13


If you want to do longhaul for the rest of your life, BA is for you. The majority of shorthaul are trips now (so I hear), so you might aswell be doing long haul.
Depends. I used to work for EZY (although on the Parc contract) and it was a no-brainer to move across. Very different if you have kids, I imagine, but I love finishing the day with a lazy beer and then retiring to a decent hotel in a European city. Not bothered about pay - in my third year here and earn upwards of £70k with a bit of overtime, plus guaranteed increments for the next thirty years. Anyone who says PP24 was sustainable is deluding themselves.

The Airbus fleet now has Tel Aviv, Baku, Amman, Beirut etc with a day off downroute and easy flying without the faff of jet lag.

The cabin crew are generally pretty good but there's still a weird gulf - pilots are referred to as "flight deck" or "tech crew", even by managers, and it's bloody annoying being handed the last two meal choices after the rest of the crew have cooked and eaten the others first.

Granted, there's a lot of BMI P2s, but equally a lot of them are getting on a bit. ;-)

EpsilonVaz 11th May 2014 15:44

Firsty Ferret, you're right, the idea of enjoying a beer downroute does sound appealing!


I always thought that the career paths in flying are a bit back to front (SH first then LH). At the beginning of my career (which I am now, mid twenties and have been with easy for 6 years), I would have loved to do long haul, or something similar. However I know that as time moves on and the older I get, I will want to be at home more and more, and the time away might start feeling a little stale if I'm ever blessed (cursed?) with little ones running around at home.

Northern Monkey 11th May 2014 16:04

The problem with easyJet is the sheer relentlessness of it. Can you imagine doing 35+ years of 5453? Long 4 sector days, day after day, rounded off with a Larnaca or something on the end? I couldn't and that's why I left. That and the hopeless roster stability - every single time I checked in or out and yep, there is the red writing of doom. Life just became impossible to plan.

In 3 years at BA I've had my roster change ONCE and that was them taking a trip off me for training! What price do you put on that? Bidline is an excellent rostering system, probably the best. We'll fight to keep it and as long as we do, that's worth the quick(ish) command I could have had, for me at least.

Fursty Ferret 11th May 2014 16:19

The other point is that BA FOs are given somewhat more autonomy in how they run the operation on "their" sector than at EZY (this has changed a bit since BMI merged due to their autocratic approach to CRM).

You can do as much or as little as you want, but in general you can choose fuel, brief the crew, handle the tech log, liaise with ground staff, do all on-board PAs, autoland, park etc. Training co-pilots, management opportunities, sim stand-ins, technical roles, recruitment etc.

Briefing is easier - we don't labour our way through every waypoint on the SID but instead focus on the specific threats of the day - and most Captains are pretty easygoing.

But... (and it's a big "but")

Heathrow stinks. The crew car park is full. The buses don't run often enough. You're nearly always holding. Stands are frequently occupied, or lacking someone to turn on the guidance or position the bridge.

peacekeeper 11th May 2014 21:47

Good to see people looking at more than the money here. If you became a Pilot to travel and see the places you fly then Easyjet probably isn't the best place for it. I've been at Easy for 7 years and Captain for 2 and can't imagine staying for another 35! I would seriously consider BA if I passed the selection. I think if you have even the faintest desire to join you should apply while it's open and worry about the finer detail if they offer you the job. Variety is the spice of life!


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