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Stuart you list your only interest as painting sounds like you have nothing better to add than criticise someone's punctuation maybe it's a little presumptuous of me to assume watching paint dry is like having a conversation with you.
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LC This post from a little earlier in the thread says it all. It's not what you do but the way that you do it! And the last bit about private phone calls to some "expired" candidates. Ah you're smart enough to know why that stinks.
With regard to the actual process itself. I'm not even knocking the 'aptitude' side of it nor the 'essay questions' - I've passed them twice, they seem to agree with me! It's just the way BA go about their business, for instance: This was my experience, twice. And I'm sure there are thousands of guys reading this thread while constantly logging on to the BA website because they received a generic email saying: "Congrats you got through stage one, pick a date for stage 2, but wait there are no dates, but don't worry we will release them soon, but we can't tell you when, or when you need to check, or how many there will be, so just spend every 10 minutes every day looking, and if you are flying the day we release them, well tough luck but they will be gone by the time you land" And if you are lucky to be in front of computer on the day, get to stage 2 and pass it, the next email comes: "Congrats you got through stage two, pick a date for the SIM, but wait there are no slots, but don't worry we will release them soon, but we can't tell you when, or when you need to check, or how many there will be, so just spend every 10 mins every day looking, and if you are flying the day we release them, well tough luck but they will be gone by the time you land" Wow must really be lucky, I'm at my computer again! Go to the SIM, and get another email: "Congrats you passed the SIM, we would like to welcome you to BA, but wait, there are no firm jobs for you, because it takes pilots so long to get through our recruitment process, we have to recruit so far in advance we don't actually know our requirements when we open recruitment, we just sort of wing it. But don't worry, there will be a seat for you to fill on one of our fleets soon, can't tell you when though, but should be within the next 12 months, so if you wouldn't mind terribly putting your career on hold while we figure out what's going on that would be great" 12 months later: "Hi us at BA again, sorry we have not been in touch we've been busy brainstorming, networking, touching base & conferencing ideas about what our recruitment plan is. Our official policy is to make guys do the whole drawn out process again, we have thought about making it a bit more streamlined, however we are BA, this is how we have always done it, and even though it doesn't work, we are gonna do it this way anyway. But we are gonna do you favour, we are gonna extend our policy to 18 months & keep you hanging that little bit longer because we are gentlemanly like that. Be in touch soon, cheerio!" 6 months later : "Hi, us at BA again! This big recruitment picture is god awfully tough to work out, but we are getting there slowly, however things move quickly in aviation and BA doesn't, so I'm awfully sorry to tell you we have done nothing but waste your time, and we will now pretend we have no record of you, so if we ever do work out this big picture, you will have to go through it all again, but we don't mind, it's been so long since you did the tests, you've probably forgotten all the answers, anyway all the best" 3 months later: No email from BA, why would they. But a text from a colleague "Mate BA just called, they miscalculated their numbers, I start next week because I didn't get a SIM slot till 3 months after you did so I'm still in the pool and that whole 3 months means I'm still BA material and you are not." Repeat the above for 100's of pilots. Now I'm not suggesting BA recruitment do the above on purpose, that's life and you should just pull up your socks and get on with it, and I'm definitely not the only Ppruner with a BA sob story. But I hope it goes someway to showing others why ex-pool Pilots feel frustrated with the process and why there is an overwhelming feeling of more luck than skill needed, above the normal "Well I didn't pass the aptitude test, so they must be stupid" comments. |
Let's not forget that Mr Craig's hand is dealt by those within the Waterside. Draining of pools, reinstating candidates (if so the case), reopening DEP recruitment etc etc is attributable to faceless managers who appear to have made some error in calculation somewhere in the last 12 months
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Maybe if they ditched the overly long interview process they would find themselves a little more nimble, and able to respond to hiring needs in a semi-realtime manner? Why on earth do BA insist upon this 1930s method of hiring? Delta Airlines can interview and hire you in one day, United takes under a week to respond. Do a quick phone screen, email a link for a personality test. If all goes well, then it's down to LHR for a sim check and face-to-face. Maybe even throw two candidates in the simulator for an actual, airplane based "group exercise." (I know, this is crazy talk).
Give the candidates a hotel room for the night before (and a sandwich for lunch), in acknowledgment of their efforts, and call them in a max of 7 days with a yes/no. Can it really be that hard?! Alas, however, I feel that the above method would prove disastrous for management personnel..... |
CK... I'm pretty certain that if anyone can make a positive impact on BA recruitment it's the British Airways Recruitment Manager. I've spoken to Lindsay on the phone and he and his team are as he says, stand up guys trying their best no question. I'm delighted that these forums are monitored by them all. The true test is ability to evaluate, reassess and evolve. Don't work harder Lindsay, work smarter!
As to the future of life as a BA pilot, well the marketing department seem to interact with social media as a necessity, perhaps the recruitment department could do the same which is so much easier than one to one time consuming calls. Appreciate face to face is how it used to be done but..... This is however way beyond my pay grade! I just didn't like the tone or the ethics. Expect high things from BA as they do from us. Nuff said! |
Stuart you list your only interest as painting sounds like you have nothing better to add than criticise someone's punctuation maybe it's a little presumptuous of me to assume watching paint dry is like having a conversation with you. It would probably be far wiser to spend more of your time sorting out your punctuation-minimal keyboard. |
BA recruitment is a mystery! Not sure I agree with you on the personalities front. Most people at BA are quite normal! Even me!
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I think I'll leave it to LC to comment on recruiting..
As for personalities, I can't argue with someone's perceptions but I've always found the idea that there's a "BA type" or BA clone is a bit strange.:confused:... In the last 25 +years BA have recruited, on and off, from the military (from the fast jet/heavy multi-engined community/rotary), other airlines, had their own cadets and now have the FPP's coming on line....and from across many nationalities. At the crew bus stop on no particular day you could be stood next to the overweight 60 year old White male Captain arguing with his wife on his mobile, the 30 something female Captain trying to sort out childcare because of her August roster :ugh:, two Dutch First Officers discussing football, and the brand new freshly minted FPP on his/her first line trip. Yes there are still some PITA, but it's generally a pretty good mix - I suspect not much different to most other airlines. |
WhyByFlier - may I politely suggest that it is highly likely to be your friend's personality that is the problem, not the BA employees' personalities. Anyone who dislikes such a large number of people is unlikely to be a "good egg".
Having worked at 4 airlines, including another major carrier, I can say that the vast majority of my BA colleagues are a pleasure to fly with. As indeed was the case at all of my previous airlines. |
A good friend summed up BA for me these days - apart from 1 or 2 people - I never spoke to or liked anyone that BA have taken from the schools and airlines I've worked for. I clearly wouldn't get on well or fit in there and so have no interest in joining. However difficult it would/could be, we have to try and believe that others are as important as we are. Satisfaction comes in serving/,getting on with, others well and consistently and it's easy for BA to spot these patterns. |
Ah OK, I see what you're getting at.
Pilapt, A laid back chat (Monarch style) and a good sim with lots of raw data, manual holds, a few failures (Air NZ style) would demonstrate far more in my opinion. |
WBF, I think you must know it's naive to assume the recruitment process is primarily tasked with finding "the best" - it's simply there these days to provide a legally defendable way to say no to the vastly over subscribed number of candidates BA will receive.
I'm sure every pilot, at every base, on every fleet, in every airline around the country can remember feeling at some time or other utterly shocked at those BA have both turned down and accepted over the years. Nothing new, their train set etc... |
WBF, I completely agree with your sentiments. I'm glad you noticed the laminated cards too! Bizarre that there are no questions regarding your life outside the cockpit - family, hobbies, sports, interests etc. Leads to a very sterile and one-dimensional experience. I know they have their reasons, but surely they could disguise them somewhat!
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The process is designed to leave you clueless. That's how I felt anyway, especially after day 1 (back when it was a 2 day affair). However it's how you play to their tune on the day, which if you do enough research and practice, you can train yourself to perform. In essence you are training yourself to fit their psychometric profile. I think experience is important, those overly experienced (people with command time) or those having experience of previous DEP campaigns need to seriously adjust their outlook or not bother IMHO. The sim is much more straightforward and effective CRM with good implementation of decision making models will see you right. For Boeing guys, the 744 is very manageable. But of course DEP is a Airbus only now so as an insight the little toggle switch on the control column is for trimming!!
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Haha, "overly experienced". Get two candidates, stick them in the sim and see how they act and fly, then have a nice little chat about their lives and outlook. Experience coupled with personality is what is important, not whether you've memorized the "correct profile" and know the airspeed velocity of an unladen European Sparrow. Oh, and ditch those laminated cards....
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Well, I'd imagine the laminated cards are here to stay along with the psychometric profile. In terms of this campaign and experience, I'd imagine too much of 'whats important' will lead to your motives being prodded. A lot of people are talking about 10 years in the right hand seat of short haul and up to 20 years to command. A long with potential restructuring, that's a big thing to buy into.
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Most people I fly with at BA are good people to be around. Same was true at my last airline. There are one or two oddballs, some of which didn't do selection in the first place. The constant is the management types though :ugh:
If you don't mind waiting 18+ years for a command, and declining T&Cs, then its the place to be! But to be honest, if I read through the Emirates thread or Cathay, or Qatar or any of the others, it doesn't seem any different, just the same ****. Still, BA is much better than my last outfit. I'd rather look at the sun through a pair of binoculars than re-join them. |
As someone who has served many years in BA, as a second flying career, I have worked hard but have always enjoyed my job and the people I have flown with.
There is now though a very sinister undertone to the rhetoric which has convinced me that the Sun is very rapidly setting on one of the most respected and aspirational positions in aviation. This is what someone from the BALPA CC said recently: Challenges ahead. NAPs. Changes to contracting out means BA NIC contributions increase. BA will ask to close NAPs. EASA. BA's opening position is they are unlikely to allow B2B's due FMS (not FRMS). Bye-bye to commuting. SH business review. No secret, BA want more, much more. And none of it "joined up" OneTeam. Hotels. BA want premier inn class hotels and airport hotels to be included in bidding process. Training out-sourced. 2014 - BA over-budget and want further significant cost savings. THIS YEAR. 2015 - IAG Project DXXXXX. "Structural change". Guess what that might mean? IAG have recently moved Hotels, and Supply/Cost board from BA into IAG. UAV/Astraea - single pilot cruise ops. BACC reps already met with ASTRAEA program director to discuss. How many pilots would BA need if it moved to single pilot ops in the cruise? Do you know aircraft like the 777 already have a FAIL OPERATIONAL autopilot capability in the cruise as well as on ILS? CPCLC beyond line of sight comms? Do you know a virtual certification process for UAV in commercial airspace has been approved? The airline that I once loved to work for has become a very unhappy place to be. You can forget drunken nights out in Barcelona. These days you'll be lucky if anyone's got the energy for a quick one round the corner. More and more you find individuals who are utterly exhausted as they run into the various statutory limits, including 900hrs a year. You'd imagine the pilot management might have cottoned on to the climate of bitterness and recrimination, but in a recent thread on the company forum, 1200 posts and 200,000 views extracted virtually no response from the very manager who opened it. Anecdotally, the chief pilot was approached as to what he was going to do with the plummeting morale amongst his department. His response was to ask what relevance morale has for the bottom line. In short, he couldn't give a :mad:. A similar question to the board solicited a response that there is less than 5% churn amongst new fleet crew, and virtually none amongst the pilots. Industry norms amongst other customer service players would consider 5% as a good indication that staff are happy. Hence until the board see the empty recruitment in-boxes and the cancelled flights due no pilots, nothing is going to change anytime soon. I'm deeply saddened that it's come to this, but in what was always going to be a very challenging programme - instead of supporting the flight crew as they kept the show on the road, they've smuggled through permanent change under the cover of temporary alleviations, sanctioned by what appears to be a weak and naïve union management. I would never suggest to any aspiring and ambitious future pilot that they should avoid BA, I was once one of you. But I want you to know what's happening in this company, and how you will be regarded by a rapacious, cynical management who resent you and your profession. |
Single pilot cruise?
Crash: LAM E190 over Botswana/Namibia on Nov 29th 2013, captain intentionally crashed aircraft Thank you, but I think I'll take the boat. |
Great post Mick Stability:ok:
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Have been thinking recently that drowning in the pool a year or so ago was good for me. This has added weight to that feeling.
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It does seem that people are drifting slightly from thread purpose. Whilst those of you who have always been or have been for a long time are mourning the passing of the good old days of BA, the fact of the matter is, is that compared to most jobs out there, it still has superior T&C's. It is still an excellent place to fly a variety of aircraft and have various opportunities in and out of the flightdeck. I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands of pilots around Europe who would jump at the chance, and so please feel free to swap places. As for the morale issue, a workplace is only as happy as you make it!
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It would be very easy for the pilot managers to respond to the various concerns the pilot community has. That they don't is imho indicative that many of those worries about the future are very justified.
The silence speaks volumes. It has been one-way traffic for an extremely long time... We helped during the cc strikes. We have taken a pay freeze + accepted less than inflation pay deals - ie pay cuts We have had to fight hard for an RPI linked deal this year - during a time of profit! We have largely embraced BFD We have become adept at safe SE taxing - saving the company millions annually We as part of the BMI integration deal - agreed to a 5% saving of SH Bidline, gave 2 days holiday back, changed pp24 to pp34 for new joiners, dropped the holiday pay entitlement claim - even though this was ruled legal by the highest court in Europe We have seen our workload increase even through minor stuff like the fuel app Yes they hold 'chats' , coffee and doughnut mornings and 'have a brew with Drew' etc - but what you really get is some face time with amateur politicians and in reality afterwards you'd be equally as informed by consulting a ouija board. The truth is it is time for BALPA to grow a pair. Softly softly gently gently has lead to the above. Time me thinks for a course correction. Apologies for the thread creep. |
Chief Brody I'm alarmed by your first point We helped during the cc strikes.
Now that shows how weak you were and short sighted in the long run following true union values. If only you and your colleagues had remained Neutral and not interfered in a legal dispute things could have been different. Fast forward to 2014 and you can see a very divided workforce where FC and CC don't generally mix silent bus rides to the hotel solo dining being just a few examples. The damage to CRM has been ruined for a generation luckily we have ex bmi pilots who know the wrongs of the past and freely admit they are paying the consequences. Never will you receive any sympathy with regards to your conditions in the future I can tell you with every force draft that takes place a big smile appears on the faces of cabin crew sometimes unfortunately it's an ex bmi FC so some sympathy can be extended. |
Wotersidew@nker
You are so far removed from reality, you troll status shines brilliantly, as ever. I admire your fervour for the irrelevant. I'll give folk the truth, the bus rides have been raucous, the dining convivial and 'sporty', the extra-curricular as good as ever. Watersid . . . please let it go. This is 2014 and the 'red pens in the shirt pocket mob' are the ones who generally eat out of their Delseys- their blinkered bitterness gnawing through their souls. Trust me. Please trust me. Life is good. |
+1 wedge! Watersidewonker claims not to troll but he continues. The midland thing is a fantasy which he and his poisoned blood holds dear. There is no divide, which he speaks of, 20% 'volunteered', (I was employed elsewhere at the time before you start), 40% of the current shorthaul pilots didn't work for BA at the time. Keep pedalling your nonsense you sound like a barrel of laughs. Your union did a fantastic job by the way. How someone can stay bitter for 4 years + is beyond me! Grow up!
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I suspect this thread will rightly shortly be cropped to get it back on the straight and narrow but whilst WW comments remain on view and are being read by prospective applicants they can't remain unchallenged:
you can see a very divided workforce where FC and CC don't generally mix silent bus rides to the hotel solo dining being just a few examples More generally I'd point out (again?) to prospective employees that the rate at which life, the universe and everything ;) is changing at BA is escalating ( downwards - can you do that? :sad:). Even so there's still a tendency to view BA T&Cs through rose tinted glasses. IMHO it's probably still a good "gig" for some and would be worth the move, particularly if you are living and working in some remote hell hole and just want to get the heck out of Dodge - but I wouldn't join BA just because, to paraphrase "it's BA, it must be better than where I am now", because you might be in for a shock...."frying pan and fire", "caveat emptor" and all that. |
Anecdotally, the chief pilot was approached as to what he was going to do with the plummeting morale amongst his department. His response was to ask what relevance morale has for the bottom line. In short, he couldn't give a **** Did he go through the recruitment process? :E I doubt he's heard of Herb Kelleher. :rolleyes: |
Falling morale equals falling safety. Happy peeps concentrate on the job more and loyalty is the best motivator. These ******* airline bosses has no idea sometimes!
Makes the guys loyal and they will follow you to the ends of the earth. Ps, it's been a long day and I'm not feeling the love )) |
Some of the most recent drowned DEP's have been called up (last month or so) with a job offer for 'bus courses (non rated DEP's that is) starting in the next month or so. Anyone know any more?
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I've heard recruitment isn't going to be for the Airbus now.
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No Sponsor,
Where did you hear that info... I'd be surprised if BA DEP onto LH as there are many unfrozen SH pilots. Plus I think this would be the final straw for a very miffed SH group, many of whom have very strong aspirations to go LH ASAP. I'm not sure in the current climate that this would go down too well with many of my fellow colleagues.... |
BASHLH
Agreed, any attempt to recruit externally onto a Long Haul fleet at the moment would lead to, errrr, "problems":rolleyes: |
If not airbus, how about 737 instead??
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No, the recently called up ex-drowned DEP's (the ones I know anyway) are going on the bus.
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No one will be going to the 737, it is a dying, contracting fleet with people posted out every month. BA are managing its decline - there will be no additional training to this fleet. It's the all electric death jet for everyone!
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BA want to standardise the SH fleet to Airbus. As stated above most of the aging 737 fleet is already on its way to Victorville.
The current meat grinder that is SH is full of pilots wanting to make the move from SH to LH, an aspiration that is central to their giving continued support to the BACC during productivity changes that seem to be pointed squarely at SH. Any change to this aspiration attributed to DEP onto LH as has happened in the past would be met with a huge amount of resistance, so much so that I believe the BACC would have to block any such recruitment plans for the protection of its current members. DEP onto the LH fleets will not happen for some considerable time, if ever IMHO. BA requires A380 pilots to have BA airbus experience, the 767 is winding down as is the 744, the 787 is becoming the most junior LH fleet with a massive queue of SH pilots waiting for it and the 777 fleet becomes more senior by the day as the 744 guys transfer across. Whilst I think that DEP will be opened for non type rated pilots again they will all be going to the French Electric SH death jet either at Heathrow or at Gatwick under whatever rostering system exists at the time. |
When does recruitment resume for the "death" jet for someone who flies a slightly bigger version?
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When does recruitment resume for the "death" jet for someone who flies a slightly bigger version? |
Ok thanks, I'm hearing rumours that it may commence very soon though.
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