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You need to be about a third of the way up the list on any fleet to start having reasonable control (i.e. days off or trips of choice, not both).
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Originally Posted by hunterboy
(Post 10488301)
How do the pilots in US and other airlines that use seniority rostering systems manage to recruit pilots? Depending on a number of factors (seniority being paramount among them), you can end the month with no pay credit, or up to triple your monthly guarantee. Even within a fleet, there's significant variation in the pay and time off that each pilot gets, which will depend on his/her goals for the month. |
Originally Posted by MikeAlpha320
(Post 10488976)
Stay at EZY if they offer you SH. Its not worth 'getting on the seniority list'. Im 80ish percent on the 777 list but doesn't mean anything for at least another 4 years. Thats assuming I get LH when my freeze up- which there is no guarantee of- especially given number of DEP LH recently. Like you say - what will LH look like in 6/7/8 years when you get there. If the hotels they are forcing on us are any indication, its not very nice.
The lifestyle is better at EZY, I had more days off, enjoyed it more and do wish I had stayed. I made the decision to accept SH, Ive learnt to live with it and will stay put unless I can find a better option. Call their bluff, they realise nobody wants SH, so are trying to offer to anyone they can to get bums on seats. We are desperately short already and it's only June. Don't come here for SH, you will regret it. BA are years behind on what is acceptable rostering- single days off, six day blocks e.t.c and you'll be kicking yourself for not waiting maybe another year or two (if it came to having to re-apply) for LH. Get a command, enjoy the cash. If LH comes your way, go for it. Friends that have gotten DEP LH love it. Don't give up orange life for BA short haul. Not worth it. (IMHO) For me personally the good thing about BA is that there is no fixed roster pattern and you can do with your roster what you prefer. I like to work long blocks with little days off in between so in return I get longer blocks off as well. Saying BA is lightyears behind with rostering is a bit like the discussion on Yammer where a FO had a massive go at crew food and particularly the cold breakfast on SH which he deemed an inappropriate breakfast because HE didn't like it. |
Yes, the general consensus does seem to be that if I were to be offered SH, to say no and stay where I am. If I were to be offered LH, to probably take it and go in with my eyes wide open. |
Originally Posted by Heisenb3rg
(Post 10489164)
Yes, the general consensus does seem to be that if I were to be offered SH, to say no and stay where I am. If I were to be offered LH, to probably take it and go in with my eyes wide open. |
Bid hasn't even closed yet- why don't we look at what people have actually bid for when its published? We all say/do different things.
Those you mention finishing their freezes now joined at the start of a huge recruitment drive, with new numbers they must be sitting around 3300-3500. We are now up to around 4300 on the MSL. Are you telling me you think there will be a similar amount of movement in the next 5 years? When BA have made cost cutting an absolute priority, why would they pay for another course? Just because your freeze is up doesn't entitle you to a course. With all the LH DEP where is the capacity for moving from airbus to long haul going to come from? It is not that I 'don't like' BA's rostering. Why is it that Norweigan/Ryanair both work 5/4 , EZY work 5/4/5/3 and have significant protections on random roster? Yet I can, and do, 6 days on 1 day off. My roster pattern for June is 4/2/5/2/6/1/6. Please tell me where the long block off is in there? I appreciate the ability to bunch work together, but we shouldn't be rostered these crazy patterns. It is not safe. IF you want to bunch your work together and have more time off elsewhere, great. But it should be our choice. Joining now you will not see the movement of 'all these pilots' you know that enjoy SH so much they want to stay. Sitting top 20% on a list after 4 years is unheard of, and under JSS, you pick and choose your work. That wont be the case for anyone joining now. If you enjoy spending your weekends sat in pret in T5 waiting for aeroplanes by all means accept a short haul offer. If you have a life outside of work, think very carefully before you give up what you have. Grass greener? :ok: |
Originally Posted by MikeAlpha320
(Post 10489191)
My roster pattern for June is 4/2/5/2/6/1/6. Please tell me where the long block off is in there?
You really have to learn how to bid under JSS if you are a few years (2+) in and that is what you get. Your view and my view differ pretty much 180 degrees on seniority and joining on SH. As I said lots of times before, joining SH at least you climb the seniority ladder while joining on LH you will not climb and could even go back on the seniority ladder for at least 5 years. Having worked at non seniority airlines before, seeing how seniority works at BA it keeps things fair and very transparent. It also has the added benefit that we don’t have direct entry captains and if people join as LH FO by the time the more senior SH pilots joins the fleet they will enjoy more roster satisfaction. |
I suppose my question is, do the perceived benefits of the more varied career at BA outweigh the potential negative aspects of a seniority based airline? Especially at the back end of the recruitment cycle we’ve just seen? Also, for those who have flown both SH and LH, is long haul really that much better? People always say that flying round Europe for 30 years would be boring but is flying round the world constantly jet lagged and staying in the same hotels actually that much better once the honeymoon period has worn off? |
Especially at the back end of the recruitment cycle we’ve just seen? |
Originally Posted by VinRouge
(Post 10489284)
what gives you the idea we are at the back end? OK maybe not back end, but they have certainly recruited heavily for the last year and a half so joining now would put you behind a large group of people. |
Originally Posted by Heisenb3rg
(Post 10489304)
OK maybe not back end, but they have certainly recruited heavily for the last year and a half so joining now would put you behind a large group of people.
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Originally Posted by VinRouge
(Post 10489313)
The forecast retirement bulge is huge. This is before any moves toward early retirement and an increasing trend for aspirational and RtR part time is accounted for. Not to mention new 350, 4x777-300 and starting delivery of 30+ 777-9 over the next 5 years. One thing is for sure, mobility up the MSL is not stopping any time soon. |
Originally Posted by RexBanner
(Post 10489331)
Agreed. MikeAlpha320, you’re a little too doom and gloom even for my tastes and believe me that’s saying something!! In response to your statement about not necessarily being entitled to a course once your freeze is up that is absolutely incorrect (as long as you have required seniority for the position of course). P&P rules agreed with Balpa, BA can only recruit a DEP to a LH position if the pilots who otherwise would have moved to these positions are frozen, if there are sufficient numbers of unfrozen people then no long haul DEP. Obviously there are caveats to that rule where in recent years BA have been able to demonstrate a lack of training capacity and therefore could recruit direct onto long haul ahead of unfrozen bidders. This hasn’t happened to a huge amount of pilots and those it has happened to have been given Waif status and been compensated with long haul pay and then moved the next training year. Unless there’s another Black Swan Event the numbers aren’t going to stop for the foreseeable. Passover pay only applies to commands out of seniority, and even then it’s on a one for one basis; and not to every single passed over pilot. |
I was under the impression that the individuals concerned had been given pass over pay. Given that was second hand information I could be wrong but, in any case, the rest of the info is all correct. |
You aren't entitled to a course if there are no courses going! Not saying DEP will be recruited ahead of you- just that if it all slows down you don't automatically have the right to move.
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Originally Posted by Percula
(Post 10489260)
I've been in the SH hold pool for 3 months so far. Any ideas on when courses might start being offered?
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BA can only recruit a DEP to a LH position if the pilots who otherwise would have moved to these positions are frozen |
Alright then Right Engine. You give me the number of how many unfrozen pilots that have actually been denied moves to Long Haul from Short Haul as a result of Long Haul DEP. The number is miniscule in the greater scheme of things. More or less everybody in recent years has been getting their move after 5 years, if not a little bit less than that, one Airbus pilot I know moved in the final year of her freeze to the 777 after only 3 and a bit years due to joining in December of the first training year. I’m only trying to point this out because some people are posting some very overly negative and misleading stuff about joining on the airbus and the risks associated with that. I’ve crunched the numbers and right now everything is pointing to me being on a Long Haul course in early 2021 having joined early 2016 (and possibly next year if enough people above me decide to stay as senior P2 on the Airbus due JSS). That’s exactly as advertised when I joined the company. (And MikeAlpha320 I take your point about courses not necessarily being available but, even with a slowdown that’s unlikely right now due to the large retirement numbers due in 2020/21). |
Rex, why do you think there are a large number of retirements due in 2020/21? VinRouge wrote something similar above "the forecast retirement bulge is huge." I hope that you are both right, but the retirement due to age prediction that I saw had about 100 retirements per year until 2029, when it increases to around 200. The data behind that forecast is quite old, but senior pilots date of birth hasn't changed.
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Originally Posted by Pickled
(Post 10489827)
Rex, why do you think there are a large number of retirements due in 2020/21? VinRouge wrote something similar above "the forecast retirement bulge is huge." I hope that you are both right, but the retirement due to age prediction that I saw had about 100 retirements per year until 2029, when it increases to around 200. The data behind that forecast is quite old, but senior pilots date of birth hasn't changed.
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