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Originally Posted by hunterboy
(Post 10487232)
Having said that, I understand that on not a few occasions, fatigued pilots were subsequently questioned why they had logged onto crewlink and emaestro in the run up to calling in fatigued. That to me shows a complete unawareness of the issue. If I was to publish the DFCM’s name I’d probably get banned, but would have several thousand pilots nodding in recognition. hmmmm... When I went fatigued it was very easy and dealt with by one of our fantastic DFCMs (most of them are bloody good in my experience). I apologised and felt (wrongly I guess) as though I'd let the company down or dropped them in it some how to cover my roster. I was very impressed at the response I received and reassured that this was a daily occurrence and an extremely regular conversation. What wasn't so clever was the DFCM (no names mentioned) who picked it up a day or so later and explained how I'm fine now I've had 24 hours at home and would likely be ready for work as they're very short of FO's. When I said no I was subtly interrogated on my drives to work, rest management / arrangements between day trips and home life situation. It was disappointing to say the least when I was then asked at the end of the call to put it all in writing via email. Gave them both barrels on my email but smelt a rat.....so when I was back in I had a look in the system audit trail to find that my fatigue had been re classified. Never got to the bottom of what to but I insisted it was changed back. The trail went cold but suspect it was re categorised. Shame really, it's just masking the problems. Overall, a very very good experience initially but the follow up and company audit trail wasn't good at all. |
Originally Posted by VinRouge
(Post 10486831)
Is it not a problem partially of the workforces making though? If you have huge constraints placed on rostering by a seniority based system that has junior guys picking up multiple low credit trips, because those above them are picking out the highly credit dense stuff, leaving the scraps at the bottom?
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Originally Posted by 2 Whites 2 Reds
(Post 10487268)
hmmmm...
When I went fatigued it was very easy and dealt with by one of our fantastic DFCMs (most of them are bloody good in my experience). I apologised and felt (wrongly I guess) as though I'd let the company down or dropped them in it some how to cover my roster. I was very impressed at the response I received and reassured that this was a daily occurrence and an extremely regular conversation. What wasn't so clever was the DFCM (no names mentioned) who picked it up a day or so later and explained how I'm fine now I've had 24 hours at home and would likely be ready for work as they're very short of FO's. When I said no I was subtly interrogated on my drives to work, rest management / arrangements between day trips and home life situation. It was disappointing to say the least when I was then asked at the end of the call to put it all in writing via email. Gave them both barrels on my email but smelt a rat.....so when I was back in I had a look in the system audit trail to find that my fatigue had been re classified. Never got to the bottom of what to but I insisted it was changed back. The trail went cold but suspect it was re categorised. Shame really, it's just masking the problems. Overall, a very very good experience initially but the follow up and company audit trail wasn't good at all. One of the two UK AOC's with approved FRMS now get a sleep scientist (who has done work for AOC's and BALPA to maintain a good balance) to give "science of sleep" training to all their Crew, Crewing staff etc. It might help if BA put some of their Pilot Managers in touch? |
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 10486049)
As Toolong says it’s definitely “Fake News”, though in various forms it has been circulating for a few days. Don’t know why how or why it started and FWIW yours is the first version where it’s been tagged as being associated with a specific fleet. |
Originally Posted by red9
(Post 10487830)
For resignations read resignations in order to take early retirement if you wish. Not to move to another company. Just people disillusioned with JSS / Pensions / Morale etc
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Originally Posted by Jumbo2
(Post 10487898)
Don't believe all the rumours, the retirees are at the moment pretty much only 65 year olds pilots, a few from within the bubble who moved to an airline up North and around 20 junior pilots who joined KLM and Aer Lingus.
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Originally Posted by Jumbo2
(Post 10487898)
Don't believe all the rumours, the retirees are at the moment pretty much only 65 year olds pilots, a few from within the bubble who moved to an airline up North and around 20 junior pilots who joined KLM and Aer Lingus.
Someone will disagree with me, but hey ho, before I’m called massively negative, right now I quite like it, the pay cheque is regular and stable, my roster doesn’t change and I have decent lifestyle control, would I recommend you join the bottom of any fleet on JSS, unless you’re 24 and single, or a realist who knows the score and is willing to put years in before you see fruits? Absolutely not. Even then, ask me in another five years time, if current trajectories of our T&Cs being assaulted continues, I probably wouldn’t recommend it full stop. Very very sad to have that as my honest opinion right now. |
Originally Posted by RHS
(Post 10488158)
Not true, I personally know of 3 in the Jet 2 hold pool (DEPs last 5 years mix of LHS/RHS), one to a private jet operator, one in the TUI hold pool and one in the Easy hold pool for DEC. Then there’s the two who left in January to Virgin off the 787, plus another who’s gone back to Ryanair. BA is 100% now a “if you’re from the SE and it suits your lifestyle”. Someone will disagree with me, but hey ho, before I’m called massively negative, right now I quite like it, the pay cheque is regular and stable, my roster doesn’t change and I have decent lifestyle control, would I recommend you join the bottom of any fleet on JSS, unless you’re 24 and single, or a realist who knows the score and is willing to put years in before you see fruits? Absolutely not. Even then, ask me in another five years time, if current trajectories of our T&Cs being assaulted continues, I probably wouldn’t recommend it full stop. Very very sad to have that as my honest opinion right now. My question being will the introduction if this system / general assault in Ts+Cs result in more career SFOs who refuse to be junior again? |
The insanity of seniority!
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The solution to this is to stay single! |
How do the pilots in US and other airlines that use seniority rostering systems manage to recruit pilots? |
Originally Posted by hunterboy
(Post 10488301)
How do the pilots in US and other airlines that use seniority rostering systems manage to recruit pilots? I don’t think BA has trouble getting people through the door mind you. The pass rate in their assessments can only be about 20% max maybe from start to finish... |
Hi Guys and Gals
If anyone could assist in providing some info I'd be most grateful. I'm a South African with British Passport (have lived in UK before), busy with my EASA ATPL (yes, I know the ins and outs with Brexit). Living in SA I really don't know a hell of a lot about BA in terms of what fleet you get put on, LH or SH, career progression and roster patterns, as well as the ability to commute and even what starting pay is, Unfortunately I don't know anyone at BA so figured this is best place to ask. Not quite sure what direction SA is going at the moment so thought it best to have a plan B in case things really go to the dogs! (seems like they are) Thank you! |
I understand there’s a certain amount of “doing your time” / earning your command etc but I struggle to see how one would enjoy the early years of their command having their well established home life totally ruined. Or am I missing something? Are the command lines somehow better? Edit: obviously I’m talking about the situation where you join RHS long haul, and wait the full time to swap to LHS. I suppose swapping to the 320 would improve things a bit with all the junior commands recently. |
Originally Posted by Busdriver01
(Post 10488171)
My query here is that even for a 24 year old with no real commitments (other than the fact most of their friends will likely work normal mon-fri jobs, which makes socialising with them a nightmare), is JSS in 17 years time (or whatever roster system is in place) going to be very desirable as a new captain? Ie you spend 5-10 years doing the rubbish lines because you’re junior, the enjoy the next half a decade at the top of the FO list for your fleet, picking and choosing the trips you want and not working weekends. You’re ready to take your command, age roughly 40 (which is when you more than likely will have commitments) and then just like that, you’re the most junior again. It takes until you’re 50 to regain any sort of relative seniority, all the while family are left for another weekend without you. My question being will the introduction if this system / general assault in Ts+Cs result in more career SFOs who refuse to be junior again? JSS has changed things in ways I don’t think as yet have been quite understood. Someone else points out US majors, but it’s a level playing field in that they are all seniority driven, they generally work less (certainly not 6x LH trips a month) which negates some of the negatives of juniority as at least you have a fair amount of time at home, and are paid a lot more. In the UK that certainly isn’t the case. Right now in BA it’s the perfect storm. We have a seniority driven system unlike any other carrier, working to the absolute limits of both industrial and legal rules, which makes the lifestyle pretty tough even for the most senior, combine that with juniority and it’s a nightmare. All the while actually not being paid anywhere near what other even European legacy carriers earn never mind Easy/Ryr/TUI/Jet2 all paying their SH skippers more than the majority of ours. |
I don’t know if this information is of any use but purely as a point of interest, in the last seven years, recruitment (and the bmi takeover) has been such that just over one third of BA pilots today have been in the company for seven years or less. If you’d joined straight after the takeover, this is where you could be today in approximate percentage terms from the top of each list: Gatwick Airbus: Captain 65%, FO <5% Heathrow Airbus: Captain 95%, FO 10-15% 747 FO 50-55% 777 FO 65-70% 787 FO 60-65% A380 FO 80-85% As the A350 is a new, and growing, fleet no meaningful data will be available for quite some time. This information is a statistical snapshot and should not be taken to mean that if you join now, this is what you can achieve in seven years. |
Originally Posted by RHS
(Post 10488496)
Certainly career SFO is what I’m thinking of doing. I have the advantage that I was able to join young from elsewhere. But yes, realistically I’ll still be 40 odd by the time I’m senior enough for any sort of lifestyle in the LHS. JSS has changed things in ways I don’t think as yet have been quite understood. Someone else points out US majors, but it’s a level playing field in that they are all seniority driven, they generally work less (certainly not 6x LH trips a month) which negates some of the negatives of juniority as at least you have a fair amount of time at home, and are paid a lot more. In the UK that certainly isn’t the case. Right now in BA it’s the perfect storm. We have a seniority driven system unlike any other carrier, working to the absolute limits of both industrial and legal rules, which makes the lifestyle pretty tough even for the most senior, combine that with juniority and it’s a nightmare. All the while actually not being paid anywhere near what other even European legacy carriers earn never mind Easy/Ryr/TUI/Jet2 all paying their SH skippers more than the majority of ours. I fly for a British loco, A320, which has reasonable financial security so long term will likely survive. I’m 23 and have an ATPL. Command at my current job could be as early as 2.5/3 years from now - 26 years old. If that happens I’ll be earning £140k. On one hand I think that opportunity is too good to miss - get all of my debt paid off, buy a house and be mortgage free relatively early in in life. Then the opportunity to go part time is readily available, just in time for the midlife crisis. On the other hand I think maybe I shouldn’t get suckered in by the golden handcuffs - I’m young and single and should probably go and try long haul (if I can get in of course). What are peoples thoughts? Accept that for the next 10 years I’d be living a junior long haul life, then be senior, then get command and be junior again, and not earn as much in the process, (also who knows what long haul lifestyle will actually be like in 15 years time - think min rest down route everywhere...) or take the golden handcuffs, earn far more for the next 18 years (I’ve done the numbers, 18 years is the minimum for BA to overtake where I am atm) and then go part time and enjoy life with my family, seeing the world in my own time with the people I want to? |
You’re planning waaay to far ahead. One thing is for sure, if I was to do the exact same thing for the next 20/30 years I would not be a happy captain to fly with! |
Originally Posted by bringbackthe80s
(Post 10488949)
You’re planning waaay to far ahead. One thing is for sure, if I was to do the exact same thing for the next 20/30 years I would not be a happy captain to fly with! |
Stay at EZY if they offer you SH. Its not worth 'getting on the seniority list'. Im 80ish percent on the 777 list but doesn't mean anything for at least another 4 years. Thats assuming I get LH when my freeze up- which there is no guarantee of- especially given number of DEP LH recently. Like you say - what will LH look like in 6/7/8 years when you get there. If the hotels they are forcing on us are any indication, its not very nice.
The lifestyle is better at EZY, I had more days off, enjoyed it more and do wish I had stayed. I made the decision to accept SH, Ive learnt to live with it and will stay put unless I can find a better option. Call their bluff, they realise nobody wants SH, so are trying to offer to anyone they can to get bums on seats. We are desperately short already and it's only June. Don't come here for SH, you will regret it. BA are years behind on what is acceptable rostering- single days off, six day blocks e.t.c and you'll be kicking yourself for not waiting maybe another year or two (if it came to having to re-apply) for LH. Get a command, enjoy the cash. If LH comes your way, go for it. Friends that have gotten DEP LH love it. Don't give up orange life for BA short haul. Not worth it. (IMHO) |
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