RYANAIR thoughts
 

Hi everyone,

I'm a continental Europe based Ryanair pilot, I'm not a native english speaker so my apologies for the many mistakes I will surely make.

Yesterday the company has put out a document in which they officially freeze every promotion and base transfer for all UK bases and in which they also threaten winter time schedule reductions , forced unpaid leave and even job cuts as they review their UK strategies.
They have mentioned a few causes: the economical downturn,the weakeness of the Sterling, the UK tourist tax and also the BALPA recognition campaign.

Now it's obviously a well thought document with which the company has started its war against their pilots and their need for a single voice with the usual threats, terror tactics, psychological warfare and all those nice things that are so dear to the Ryanair management.

On the other hand , in the same document, they write they will invest in other European countries where the business climate is more favorable; in itself not a bad thing but it sounds so explicitly just like another way of dividing the pilot community in UK and non UK based in this case.In past disputes it was Dublin and non Dublin based and other cases of division tactics along the same lines.

One thing they don't mention though is that there are around 220 cadets about to start training, not exactly a move in line with a period of crisis unless they will freeze them as well and let them go just after their self sponsored training since the company should already have a surplus of pilots according to their statements.

In my opinion it would be interesting to know how many pilots voted in favour of the recognition because if it turned out that the majority voted yes it means people are not satisfied with the present status and a wise leader would deal with the problem instead of denying it or even worse fighting against those who ask for changes; in a democracy that is of course.

Even a child can understand that the absence of any sort of opposition can make RYR managemet's life much easier so that they can take whatever decisions they deem necessary for their own and their share holders' benefit.
If those decisions happen to be taken in fortunate times then maybe the workforce can also benefit from it but when things start to be nasty then you can find yourself having to move from Valencia with your whole family without any notice nor the slightest sort of support from the company or find yourself based in a foreign country with 3 or 4 consecutive standby days making zero money on a BRK contract because the self sponsored cadets are occupying your seat costing the company nothing not to mention unwanted and last minute allocated annual leave and many many other examples of 3rd world country employee treatment.
In many cases we don't have a 5/4 but a 2/7 roster with plenty of unwanted and unpaid standby days, so the threat of going 5/2 for some could even mean good news as long as they can fly and afford paying their bills.

Bottomline is that the majority of the guys are not really happy with how things are going in RYR and this BALPA recognition initiative is just a way to oppose a stubborn management that never ever asks your opinion about anything and just makes decisions that people have to accept without having any right to speak up.

Now it seems that with its latest move the company wants to isolate our UK colleagues and I wouldn't be surprised if they were to tour the european bases even offering a couple of pennies more or a few long awaited base transfers just to divide the pilot community even further or just extending their threats to peripherical bases where the BALPA campaign is not supported by local laws and where psychological terrorism can be easily perpetrated without consequences.

I would also like to look ahead and imagine the airline in a few years from now: the plan is to grow to approximately 300 aircraft, we already have 200 so the expansion should last another 2 or 3 years where hundreds of cadets will find a job here and tens of senior F/O's will have the chance to upgrade to Captains...and then what?Once the airline has estabilished itself and internal growth inevitably slows or even stops how will we deal with our everyday issues?
The pilot community will grow older and those who once were 20 years old cadets will be 30 years old senior F/O's with a long way to upgrade ,what will then be the criteria if everyone will have the experience but there will be no seniority to go by?How will we deal with the fact that there is a surplus of F/O's because of the hundreds of self sponsored cadets who joined in previous years?How will we deal with the unfair fact that there are plenty of different contracts and T&C for the same job?How will we deal with the huge number of contract pilots whose deals last no longer than 5 years making their jobs less secure than those of the permanent guys?

As a last thought i would like to say that I sincerely believe that Ryanair has all the potential to become a leader not only in number of passengers carried or business value for its share holders but also a first class company to work for if only the management understood that they are dealing with human beings and not with puppets just like Southwest is there to prove.

I hope that the majority of the Ryanair pilots will open their eyes and stick together this time regardless of their nationality, contract, base and personal views of BALPA because this could be the last chance for all of us to show those in charge that we are not fat and happy as they like to picture us but that we are concerned about the future of our jobs and the quality of our lives and demand an active and constructive role in the growth of our company.

I also hope that BALPA will be wise enough and take this whole recognition issue well outside the UK borders because this is the first european battle of this kind and the more international it becomes the stronger the support will be as well as the media coverage.

Good luck to all of us.

Interesting points.

i don’t see how the management can expect to be taken seriously when they're still trying to recruit hundreds of new FOs for all the new planes apparently coming, while threatening to fire people next winter because things are supposedly looking a bit tight.

i think trying to bully and corral the uk pilots will push them towards balpa, because being sent threatening memos every week is pretty rubbish - so keeping the status quo doesn’t seem to offer a long term solution.

I 100% agree! Ryanair UK or non UK pilots, now it's time to be all together!


I don't think thery are going to fire people... because most of the pilots are BRK... that means, if they don't fly, they cost nothing!

A BRK pilot who don't fly get no money, as simple as that!

I think that MOL wishes to play that game, let him see what pilots can do...

He could be affraid from loosing Captain, No captain, No flight, No money for HIM!

And there is not so much CPT on this market to fill the B738 fleet left seat.

CPTs can fight easily for all RYR pilots...

Think about that, it could be great to work with RYR if ever we have some recognition: Pension, social, free ticketing, and to be consider as Human being.

Going by past experience... probably :mad: a**

I start wondering if this is a safety issue?

Pilots are being bullied by management, who scare their workforce in coming to work, BRK pilots reporting for duty since they'll otherwise won't get any salary, or the shocking story of the captain who doesn't tell FR his son passed away in fear of getting sacked.

How about everybody giving their own little example and then hopefully a journo will pick it up. Maybe a bit of PR, either good or bad, probably bad for FR will get the union ball rollling a little bit quicker.

BALPA
 

Just a quick point, is Balpa for British pilots or can anyone join.

is it true that this memo has been deleted from the company's website?

Alycidon,

Everybody can join, as long as your airline recognizes BALPA as a union.

I work for a pan European company, am based in mainland Europe, but a BALPA member.

There are also quite a few people who are a member of the local unions. These local unions are in close contact with BALPA and everybody in my company who is a union member is represented irrespective of what union they have joined through something which in my company is called the European Pilot Group.

And yes, BALPA is the way forward, I doesn't bear thinking about what would have happened here if we wouldn't have had them!

From my past experience and observations, from within or outside : act now, altogether, under one flag or........you're ****** 5 years down the road and your lives WILL be a misery. WhatEVER threats, official or not, between the lines or clearly expressed, you will always be stronger together than divided. You will always gain more (lose less) sticking together. Don't take your fate like cattle waiting to get slaughtered.

From what I hear about what's happening to Ryanair pilots at the moment, and drawing the curve for another 4 to 5 years, you'll all be working in fear at the mercy of any new foolish idea coming to "their" deranged minds.

Don't just wait ! Act !

Yes you can join BALPA even if not a UK resident, they have some sort of specific membership for foreign residents (by the way very cheap).

Every Ryanair pilot regardless of nationality and base can anonimously support the recognition campaign, please find the specific link below and pass it on to our fellow colleagues:

https://www.balpa.org/getdoc/a98486c...rPetition.aspx

Just wondering, does BALPA have the ability to set up a message board for the Ryan Air pilots that can be a little less public? just asking as you never know. Management might try to ID someone and single you out for some "special treatment". maybe one of your own computer geeks can set one up and the try to screen legitimate FR guys to join. It's not BALPA or any other union that will make a difference it's the FR pilot's that will make it work for you. It'll be a lot of hard work and dedication. Just remember there's never been a management type that's tried to get a burning desk on the ground in crap weather.

Already exists:

REPA - Ryanair European Pilots' Association

Hi guys,

Having spoken to a fairly senior member of the Ryanair team about this recently, it has become obvious to me that unless all of the FR pilots in every base across Europe join BALPA (which Im afraid I can't see happening), BALPA will not win this. By the sound of it MOL would probably not hesitate in cutting back the operations in the UK just to stop this campaign, such is the anti-union stance of Ryanair management. Knowing thier tacticks, they'd probably maintain a similar amount of flights to/from the UK, just have the a/c based in Europe. Ryanair has a history of not backing down on its threats, so if they say they are going to close a base, they do etc...

While I support the idea of union recognition, I can't see this working, which is sad. And if I was comming up for my command up-grade and was uk based right now, I'd be quite upset. I know this post isn't much help, Im just trying to face facts.

as17,

yes you look at the facts NOW, try to visualize what's behind the corner and not just what you see in front of you...just like you would be required to do during your command upgrade training.

Think of the company in 1 or 2 years from now instead of having a short sighted vision.

I think BALPA should get ECA/IFALPA and similar partner organizations into this and make it a European issue because keeping it a local UK thing allowing RYR to just move the game abroad is a loosing game.
They need international support to win the UK battle, the rest will happen step by step.

It is difficult to know what to say to this, but quite a few thoughts come to mind but, as17, having sat on my hands for a little while I will restrain myself to the following questions:

And what, pray, would you expect him to say?

And why do you - as you appear to - believe what he says?

Presumably he told you about really bad things that would happen too.... did you swear eternal loyalty to ensure that you would not be contaminated by "bad" people looking to protect themselves?

If things can be made "obvious" to you so easily, perhaps you might care to think again about what is going on just below the level of the "obvious".

Thats very true.

All I'm saying is that Ryanair are in a very strong position here- they're not exactly at the asking their staff to work for free stage. I can just see this playing out like the miners' strikes in the 80's. As Thatcher stockpiled coal before hand, so Ryanair have billions in the bank.

as17,

RYR have millions in their bank, true.

RYR also have obligations towards their share holders and I can assure you that someone putting money into a business wants things to go ahead as smoothly as possible and a personal war between management and the frontline workers is not exactly what a shareholder wants to see, especially if the issue makes its way onto the media making the RYR bubble burst into the worst kind of PR they could possibly have: exploited and treathened workers that are responsible for the safety of unaware passengers.

Ryanair has everything to lose in a battle against its pilots. They cannot go too far.

And remember, the Soviet Union seemed irresistible in the 80s. Look what it's turned into.

MOL seems irresistible today. Seems.

It's only sad things have to be this way while they could be so much smoother, the Southwest way...

Most of the FR pilots don't care about union and don't know what's BALPA. What BALPA will do? Hmmm I really don't know... Sometimes I have the impression that most of the pilots who are unhappy with FR management are not even FR pilots.

It's not the war of the FR pilots, it's the war of the Giant Balpa against it's worst enemy FR management, For FR pilots nothing to win...everything to lose...see already the colataral damage for UKFR pilots are coming....

aeroncaman
Probably true, but the younger generation, in fact pilots in general, seem to have had their b@lls genetically de-activated.
And the rest of us old farts are too bitter & cynical to see beyond the next pay-cheque to give a sh1t, so who does that leave ? ?

I have always loved reading these posts, and always marvel at the nievity of my colleagues in RYR.

IT still baffles me that people think BALPA is trying to get recognition in RYR. In real terms BALPA dont care, and I dont mean that in a bad way.
They are a business aswell, the point here is their business is representing the interest's of their members (who pay the bills).

The RYR BALPA compaign, started by BALPA ?? NO.
They are here for and only becuase we the RYR pilots have asked them to come and do it.
BALPA is the pilots, the only way anything gets done is becuase the piltos want it. BALPA gain nothing from any of it except membership fees from those that are members.

I want BALPA or any kind of union to represent me and my interest becuase I know, having asked question at the numerous RYR pay deals I have been at, and having walked out of 2 that the management not only dont care about your questions / opinions, it is blatently obvious their not even listening.

Take the last pay deal, negotiate with us ?? Ok on advise from BALPA we did just to have the proof it doesnt work.
What did RYR do, they actually handed us the proof, whether they realise it or not.

You cant draft a pay deal, say come back to us, which we did with suggestions, only to be sent an ammended deal that take into account none of what you suggest but miraculously is almost identical to every other base.
Either we all asked exactly the same question that thye were not prepared to answer, or the ammended deal was already written before they came to us.

Now I leave you to draw your own conclusions on that, but to me its pretty obvious.

In conclusion, BALPA = RYR PILOTS (for the benefit of our campaign).
Our livelyhood, T&C's, lifestyle self respect and proffesionalism are in our hands not some third party.
Only if we succeed in recognition, withou it we carry on with the same do as your told this is what your getting way of life. = No control what so ever.

ryanair recruitment scam
 

GREAT READ,,,,One thing they don't mention though is that there are around 220 cadets about to start training,YOU SAID
WELL THE MORE THEY TRAIN THE MORE CASH THEY MAKE BUT THEY MUST TERMINATE STAFF TO KEEP THESE TRAINING FEE'S ROLLING IN...
RYANAIR HAVE BEEN SCAMMING FOR TRAINING FEE'S FOR 4 YEARS,
I HAVE DONE THE HOME WORK FOR 8 MONTHS COS MY 18 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER GOT SCAMMED BY RYANAIR/CREWLINK...
I PROTEST FOR PROBATION CABIN CREW WHICH MAKE THESE SCAMMERS LOADS OF CASH BUT SCAMMING PILOTS IS VERY BIG MONEY..
TAKECARE YOU ALL OUT THERE..
http://ryanairdontcare.********.com/

They have offered the strangulation of this industry and people have decided to help - it takes two to tango, remember that.

I cannot comprehend the manifest inability so many posters have of the reality of the current situation.

We are all in the midst of a global financial crisis: the aviation industry is in meltdown. Meandering through the threads on this board brings you a precis of the status quo: the BA thread discusses losses at BA and cutbacks in employment, the Virgin thread deals with pilot redundancies at VS. The bmi and bmibaby staff face uncertainty following the takeover by LH, easyjet reported interim losses of £129.8M to March 2009.

The largest and best known carriers in the country are cutting back and suffering the pains of the recession: the list of collapses in the last year is long and distinguished.

So your solution is - let's start a campaign for union recognition in an Irish company which made a small profit, is expanding and recruiting and is universally known to be antipathetic to unions.

If the few tubthumpers persist in running headlong over the cliff and the lemmings blindly follow them you will find that the smaller UK bases will close first with the aircraft transferred to existing and new European bases and the marginal routes chopped; the more lucrative routes will just be operated as W patterns from Europe.

If you are unable to grasp the simplicity of this response, which will be presented as a commercial necessity due to increasing costs in the UK regions, you really should stick to just flying the aircraft and leave the more complex decision making to others.

Whether you are in the pro-BALPA or anti-BALPA camp matters not: the outcome of pursuing this ill-timed campaign will be an unmitigated disaster for pilots, cabin crew, engineers and ground staff throughout the UK, both those working for Ryanair and their contracting companies and those youngsters looking for their first job in the industry.

RSS - when I boil down your argument I conclude your worries (or at least your arguments) come down to fear - the bullying and hectoring attitude of your employer has got to you.

Carriers are retrenching and some have collapsed. This is a normal part of business. Don't blame the unions, blame the management. Poor management is always the root cause of problems. Poor management doesn't manage it's yield correctly, becomes too reliant on one part of it's customer base, over expands in the good times without considering what will happen in the downturn, ill-judges it's fuel hedging policy, or due to management vanity and machismo undertakes an ill-considered and expensive attempt to take over a rival. Ryanair management is in my view guilty of the last one, probably guilty of the second from last and time will tell if it's guilty of the one before.

The username by the way. I take my username from a small village in North Yorks which I have connection with. You are on Officer on an aircraft (I can't assert your rank), is a violent, drug taking American rap star really appropriate?

Good luck to all in Ryanair. Backbone and a steady nerve is required at this time. The rewards will follow in the years to come.

If I were in charge. I would Knight MOL,EW,& DOB:ok: through in LHC as well.

pilot 999
 

You would knight them for what exactly? Services against employee and customer relations? If I read you correctly we would be back to a feudal system in pretty short order. In fact, reviewing your previous posts I came across this from 2007

A truly wonderful individual.

Barden
You cant see the reality for the bull**** that you are being fed from and by those set upon the BALPA road to disaster.
As RSS has said the time is NOT right to force Union recognition, this must wait until the market favours pilots and not vice versa.
The industry is in melt down and there are no secure jobs in our industry.

Should you wish to force the BALPA issue you will only make the Ryanair contracted pilots futures more unstable than they are already.
With a company that is as diverse as Ryanair with bases and Brookfield crews you are on a slippery slope to the unemployment line.
Ryanair contracted pilots are the only ones that BALPA can or will support, and as is the case today the Brookfield pilots cannot be brought into the BALPA fold until there is agreement with Ryanair Brookfield and BALPA (Hell freezing over comes to mind)

The same problems are also evident in other companies seeking representation, who have European bases and differing contracts of employment.

Back off for a year or 18 months, work to keep jobs during that time then look at the big picture, not just individual base or pilot goals, and then in which direction you should then go.

Having been in the job que for several months on more than one occassion, I would now rather work with management to save and expand jobs than sit fat dumb and happy while others in the company loose theirs.
Rocking the boat now will cost jobs, and the question you should ask yourselves is "Do I want a job or the dole".
Think before you act in haste. Those who have jobs should try their hardest to keep them. You don't have to win every battle to win the war.

You may think from this that I am in Ryanair management, but I am just an employed pilot who has seen it all got the T shirt and can see what is happening, both from a BALPA PLC point of view and one who wishes to see maximum employment in the industry.

Guy's and Girl's look realistically at the current climate and the hundreds of pilots out there looking for work from Cadet levels to very experienced Captains, and think !!!!

RSS, I have observed has posted on RYR related topics with logic and fact and I consider that he should be listened too in this and other forums.

Day Dreamer, I have sat on the dole, post 9/11 and wouldn't wish it on anyone.

The time is not right for any confrontation with any management of any airline: we need to adopt a more responsive approach and seek to retain jobs, even if it means accepting paycuts and a reduction, however temporary in our conditions.

If we were all prepared to take a cut of 10% pay and allowances, night stop in cheaper hotels, job share, fly more hours than the BALPA or union agreement, whatever.....we might be able to keep more of our colleagues employed until the wheel turns. That is collective concern, not tub thumping to get a union in or preserve outdated work practices.

Guys, you may well know, from other postings, that I am looking for work and approached the FR option. I would be glad of the job!!!
My profile on the side here shows that I have been doing this for, probably, too long. I joined BALPA in 1970. When an old established charter Airline was taken over by BA I was very high on the seniority list, but on the `wrong` type. So, BALPA supervised the process whereby the guy #2 on the list lost his job but the newest F/O joined BA.
When I needed to go the States to do my FAA written in order to join Saudia BALPA paid the air fare for 3 guys but not for the 2 (including me!) who had joined the action group to fight BA for unfair dismissal! because they disapproved. I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Theses are difficult times.....no ............extraordinary times! MOL is nothing if not a pragmatist, and I am not fond of his style any more than the next man, but if he can keep 200 a/c flying through this ****e then I respectfully suggest that anyone who can participate in that and come through to the good times might be smart to do so. History has shown lots of guys keen to have a scrap, often with someone else in the front line.

This is not an easy profession, but it is an amazingly rewarding one. I have told my kids to write on my stone / plank / piece of cardboard
" Xxxx Xxxxx Born xxxx Died xxxx "If you cant take a joke....you shouldn`t have joined!"

Mind you I am going to win the lottery next week!!

Flyingstig
I was in the same airline but left in '79 and well understand what you went through.
I too have had similar service from BALPA and I am no longer a member.
RSS
I am in full agreement.

We as an industry are in severe trouble, and now is not the time to allow a business called BALPA to gather more 1% subscriptions with the promise of better days to come through their stewardship.
To BALPA, membership subscriptions are more important than those paying out.

Unionisation only works if it is a two way street, and in the current climate survival is the name of the game, for every pilot.

The job losses and airline collapse's are not finished more are to come, dont live in isolation.

Being one that still pays BALPA subs, I see there are no less than three articles in the log this month about Ryanair.
It is also very clear from them that BALPA are not concerned at all about the staff at Ryanair, They are simply trying to use them as a weapon in an attempt to protect their members in other UK airlines.

Warning Union Busters at work
 

Ballsout, I don't know what you proclaim to have read, but seeing as the main article was written by an actual Ryanair pilot, you either never read it, or you are on team mis-information with Pilot 99. This really is getting boring, what did pilot99 hand over to you for the evening shift.

Pilot99 nobody is taken in by you, it really is pathethic, we're a bit more savvy than you give us credit for.

Yeah yeah, i'm a genuine pilot, who think MOL and DOB should be knighted, this and that..... where's my bull5h1t button.

Union busting rule 1 - Try and break resolve - tool - lies and misinformation

BORING

DayDreamer - accepted, there are many who have had experiences in the past and say never again for life. But they are a very different, more modern and inclusive organisation, today. its a shame many make a lifelong commitment, if they make a mistake. They have made mistakes and being populated by humans they will again. But they have learned lessons and addressed them and I genuinely believe they really do work very hard for their memebers. But its difficult i am not you and you not me. I accept you may wish to vote NO is an impending vote, but lets at least agree to allow a vote to be democratic and allow people the chance to have their say. Something I think Ryanair want to try and avoid.

Oh dear..

The only party I see forcing issues is Ryanair management with quite belligerent behaviour and memos which is leading to pilots joining BALPA by the multitude. Nothing to lose now lads.. I’m just looking for the concessions and the pay rise next which should be good.

They will fight to the last man they said. DOB and EW. Fight to the last. :uhoh: Boring, heard it all before just like the base freezes. Always seem to melt off though when they can't man flights. The old stuff seems to work on some posters and pilots though. Especially the posters with the "been there got the T-Shirt". Lucky your not left in the industry to long then as we would all be lost long term with those attitudes.. Some of us also have the T-Shirt and have achieved good success.

If offering pilots across the UK a vote on their future, which they decide by ticking a box on what they want by a majority vote is forcing something, compared to the shambles of the negotiations a few months back and continuously in Ryanair is classed as "forcing" then I think we need to look at the validity of the post for the value it possesses? :cool:

Carry on with unilateral changes of contract and terms or vote in a confidential vote. hhmm let me think a minute.. :E

Scamming
 

Hi there,

I watched your YouTube video which was very interesting...I knew they scammed pilots....never knew about Cabin Crew until I saw your video.

My flight instructor is starting the TR course in July in Stockholm and is delighted about...sad thing is he could be finished with Ryanair after only 6 months yes?

RSS,

re EZY winter loss - would you care to add that we are still forecasting a profit for the financial year of 20 - 30 million?

People love to sensationalise things with half truths. Yes a loss of 129mil is not brilliant, but equally, it is traditional for winter months for ALL airlines. Had the fuel hedging not been in place the loss would of been around 40mil. Now that IS good for winter!

So balance things out and not too much scaremongering if you please!

And don't you think Ryanair management know that ? ....

Which is why they will use this opportunity to drive our terms and conditions ever downwards !!!

Cuts to pay and conditions in RYR are never temporary, you should know that by now !!!

What we lose, we never get back ......

1. what is lost takes a market shift in your favour to get back.

2. how do you explain that to FR crews on Brookfield contracts ?

FR crews on Brookfield contracts are going to be left out in the cold on BALPA negotiations. To some degree there may be a little that can be done for them, but not a lot. They are in effect self employed so have little ability to be represented as employees.

They are the most precarious of FR flight crews, as it is they that will bear the brunt of any retaliatory action from FR management.

While the point made previously is that the younger pilots don't seem to have the balls on this issue, many younger pilots are subject to the Brookfield contracts so have no benefit to BALPA representation only the additional subscription fees.

It is easy to ask pilots to pull together to unionise FR for better terms and conditions, however, in doing that you are asking for the least secured to put themselves up as the cannon fodder.

This practice of full time contracted pilots on 5 year "dedicated" contracts to a single party skirts around the legal issues of "what is employment" and "what is contract".

That is the single biggest threat to T&C's across the industry. Do you think that FR will be the first and last to take on crews in a manner that affords them nothing ?

Think again.

Again we revolve around the same point. This is not the time to be fighting for better T&C's, this is the time to be fighting to prevent an airline going non-linear.

When the situation has stabilized, then the progress for T&C improvement can be started.

Right now, what does anyone have to bargain with ?

Zip, Zero, Zilch, Nada.

Brookfield pilots can be dumped out without so much as "don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out" and FR contracted pilots can be replaced by more Brookfield crews.

There are a lot out there, with line experience, time on type, and those keen to get into a right seat position as we all know. The threads on pprune are filled with people that would gladly fly a kite if they could log the time and keep current, maybe even draw a paycheck, till the market improves.

Flight crews are continually reminded of "the chain of events" that leads to smoking hole in the ground and it is identifying these events and breaking that chain.

There have been several small events that have occurred that lead to the problems we face, some have been put forward already. Those events in T&C's need to be identified and the chain broken, or rather should have been.

They have not, they were not, even when the market was in favour of flight crews (as much as it can be).

As much as it is easy to dismiss "old timers" (No offense to those with decades experience in the industry; it is an effective analogy) with "times have changed" quotes, it is worthwhile listening to them and prior experiences so that false expectations are not entered into or mistakes of the past repeated.

BALPA is not a magic bullet.

As a union, it may help, it may exacerbate the situation.

As flight crews, we need to think through processes and alternatives to arrive at the destination planned. it is the same in negotiations, there needs to be a realistic appreciation of worst case scenarios, alternatives and the processes involved and the current situation as a whole, not just with a blinkered or idealistic view.

If you are that cheesed off with the T&C's in FR, why don't you resign over it and seek an alternative position with another carrier ? Maybe even nominate flyingstig to take over your position?

Why? Because they are not recruiting right now. In fact the opposite.

So, what do you have to bargain with ? Don't bargain with the Brookfield crews.. Bargain with your own position if you believe that much in your cause.

And when the time comes, who will do the negotiating ? The ERC's ? With their past track record ?! What resources do they have compared to BALPA ?

If the recognition vote fails and BALPA are locked out for another 3 years, then I guess it will have to be ........

What a depressing thought.

:ugh: