Thanks Bruce !!

Dont mind if I do!!!

:ok:

That is a fair point.

However, does anyone realistically see that this industry will be more stable and at a point that flight crews will be in a positive position in the next 36 months ?

Likely not.

Even with the best will, a change of UK government tomorrow with an improvement in fiscal policy and more aviation industry beneficial legislation (eg APD increases) and leveling off of oil prices (the situation in Iran is having an effect on oil price increases and OPEC are looking to reduce production to push prices back up) we would see stability in about six months, with implementation of carrier investment about another 6-12 months after that, with the absorption of currently available crews perhaps 6-12 months after that.

And that is with the best will in the world; we would see the position for pilots to start looking for better T&C's in 2 and a half years.

When FR face the loss of FR employed crews to other operators over better T&C's and the Brookfield guys move to carriers where they are employed, FR will face crewing problems and T&C's will improve subsequently.

I do not work for FR. I have never worked for FR nor will I ever work for FR. I only comment from the experience of 46 years of professional flying. During this time, I have had experience of just about every form of representation ranging from BALPA to the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. I also spent 7 years running a PLC.

I have to comment on the following:

"FR crews on Brookfield contracts are going to be left out in the cold on BALPA negotiations".

Now, that would be a terrible position to be in. What BALPA negotiations do you really fondly imagine are going to take place? Even if any negotiations with MOL actually take place and some little battle is won, are you telling me that the BRK guys will not also benefit by default? So why should they bother?

If I were flying for FR right now then I would much rather be a BRK employee than a Ryanair employee. Ryanair employees have so much more to lose. If this episode really gets to become an ar*ehole kicking contest then the BRK pilots don't have much to lose. They already own their type ratings and can walk tomorrow or else stay if the offer is good enough. They are free agents and are in control of their own future.

What do you imagine they lack in the big scheme of things? I know quite a few BRK employees who are quite capable of looking after themselves. After all, it only costs around £125 per year to get legal benefits insurance and it does not take a genius to set up his own pension scheme. (I, for example, am retired and one of my pensions comes from money saved whilst I was a contractor working in the US of A). It really is not rocket science to look after your own affairs.

I have witnessed the carnage created by pilots (and engineers) who thought they knew better than "the management". Eastern Airlines (Miami version) was a classic example.

Let us look at a very bleak scenario; MOL and BALPA just do not get on together. MOL decides to re-register Ryanair as Ryanair (Lithuania) Ltd. You can reapply for your jobs on Monday morning.

What the hell are you going to do? Perhaps you could persuade BALPA, IALPA et al to call a strike? How well do you think that will go? Hopefully the BALPA and IALPA members might support the action but that's about it.

The BRK pilots are not employed by FR and therefore cannot go on strike. So, at least 50% of the flights will operate as normal from UK and Ireland and the effect on overseas bases is likely to be minimal.

On Tuesday your jobs will be advertised in Flight International etc and after a few months you will be history, fighting a rearguard action in the courts that BALPA can't support for completely practical reasons (as per the Danair disgrace).

If you do not think that such a thing can happen, consider what happened to all of the FAA Air Traffic Controllers when Ronald Regan lost patience and fired the lot of them. Did flying in the US of A stop? Of course it didn't.

One of the saddest things that I have ever witnessed was seeing a bunch of ex-Continental pilots outside the terminal at Denver in full uniform with placards parading up and down trying to persuade the punters not to fly with "the bunch of scabs" that had queued up to replace them. I asked them how long they had being doing this. The answer was an astonishing "three years". Can any of you out there imagine such a scenario? Do you think the public gave a sh*t? All they were interested in was the ticket price.

I suspect that the fire-breathing dragons among you have never ever seen a picket line and have never been involved in serious confrontation.

I also suspect that a large number of negative posters out there are like me in that they do not work for FR and are very unlikely ever to work for FR.

Unlike me, they really have no idea of what they are getting into and to expect some trade union to walk into Ryanair and solve all their problems overnight simply means that their judgement should seriously be questioned.

Personally, I am astonished that BALPA are even considering taking an interest in FR in the current climate. In the past, they have always stayed clear of any airline where there is the slightest chance of serious litigation. Even if he lost the war, MOL could write off all of BALPAs funds in a prolonged battle and it would be interesting to see whether the BA members of BALPA thought that defending FR was a sound investment since they see the likes of FR as being their very own harbinger of gloom.

God bless all of you.

JW411, I totally agree with your way of seeing what is actually going on, very bad timing from balpa but i suspect they are under pressure from the BA guys.

I just discovered that balpa has asked for recognition in al Ryanair UK bases, I don't know how because at my base there is definitely not a majority supporting that decision but appearently UK laws allowes unions to do so if they have been asked to do so by only one employee, maybe even a Brookfield who won't get any benefits anyway ?

Guys, Ryanair management are running this company as a business, they decide what T & C they will put on the marked, you decide if that is good enough for you or you just pick another offer, plenty around the world for the time being, how about China, India, Nigeria, Korea etc. ? I just want to say that I know of some of my former colleges from Sterling already working in those countries and they would love to work for Ryanair if they got the chance.

I am not a member of balpa anymore as I don't believe they are realy doing this for the Ryanair pilots, just about to post the application for the independant union instead.

JW411A
UK Viking
RSS
I have to say that the best posts seen on this forum are from you guys.
You have all been a breath of reason, in a sea of BALPA hype.

The Ryanair contract guys will be the ultimate casualties in this mis-guided and badly timed push for BALPA.
With the outside contractors and European based pilots there are enough pilots to operate the RYR schedule, and Ryanair contracted pilots could easily find themselves working legal minimum sectors each month or 3 months to be kept current, or be allowed to go out of check.
Once out of check and enough other pilots (Non Union) doing the flights you may find yourselves surplus to requirements.

Those who think that they will get Brookfield pilot's support in any strike action need to read a Brookfield contract, and realise you will not get help from them especially as BALPA has told many Brookfield pilots that they cannot support them, but they are welcome to pay their 1% subscriptions.

The time is NOT right to push for BALPA recognition in RYR, yet in 18 months to 2 years you might find the market has changed and you can vote with your feet and join BALPA companies.
I hasten to add that many of you will still find that when with other employers, you shall still find things to moan about.

Be reasonable and put your efforts into keeping people employed in these difficult times.

JW411 and a few others have pretty much nailed it dead on.
Given the laws, the industry, the workforce and MOL this will only end in tears for some sacrificial pilots.
Want it to change, leave, that is the only thing that will change the package at Ryanair. Can't get something better, stay or into another line of work.
I do remember the CO pilots picketing, in between shifts as valet parkers.

It really makes me wonder what BALPA game is. They know they are not going to get recognition. MOL has all the cards. Something smells.

Good luck to all

20driver

JW411

It seems we are of the same perspective and i agree with you 100%.

Though i have to admit you are considerably more succinct than myself.

JW411

Side note: also sage words from one who has seen an industry down or two !

Vexed, how on earth do you know about the way business is runned by Ryanair, you speak as if you were management knowing everything about their strategies and business plans, ok you are right, they do make the results official, but how can you know how to run a business like this, and how do you know that US is so different ? (I don't think they are much different business vice)

Ryanair has a strategy and they are dammed good grocers, thats why my self and many others are still employed in a developing expanding company with a very interesting future, and we will get a part of the cake when time is up, othervice they can't expand, just have some patience and let this down turn pass.

It is hard for the cadets not to know if they get employed or not after having paid for the type-rating, they are free not to, it is just an offer they can refuse, I did'nt even get the chance to buy a type-rating nor getting a job back in the eighties, I had a hughes dept and kept crawling up the latter for about 6 years untill I finally got a seat in a Shorts 360 !! still having my unpaid dept but at least I could start to pay it back.
Life is sometimes about taking risks, sometimes you win sometimes you loose, but there is always another way to pick.

How many airlines actually gives an oppertunity to be an airline pilot not only for the youngsters but also for pilots who are mature grown ups in their early thirties before they decided to take a new experience ?

Just because Ryanair seems to do well it still might not be so well as you think, I am still happy to work for an airline that copes the downturn as Ryanair does.

UK viking, everyone here understands your very close to management. You rely on the argument it is nice to work for an airline that's not going down the drain. If only that was the only interest in working for any airline...The bottom line is : what's the point working for an airline that exploits you and intends to push for more pressure on T&Cs in the future.

T&Cs at Ryanair are sliding and will keep sliding on a steep slope if nothing is done about it.

Ryanair pilots have NOTHING to lose in the run with such action. Nothing.

FRying, a lot to loose, first of all the 5/4 roster and then the allowances and balpa will still not be able to get us any improovements, at least not for the time being (Bad timing again).

What exactly do you think we could get from a balpa recognition ?

By the way, I am not close to management at all, have just seen a lot of bad union influence the last 25 years.

I know a chap involved in recruitment in a good airline who told me they actually try to avoid employing ex ryanair pilots where possible. His view was that as they are willing to accept such low terms and conditions in working for ryanair, he didn't want them dragging his airline down in the future.

That's the trouble with ryanair, all the better airlines look at them and think, how on earth do they get the crews to work so hard for so little, let's try it on our lot. When all the new pilots joining ryanair for "just a few years" try to go somewhere better, they find those airlines aren't as good as they were when their dads or uncles or whoever they once looked up to worked in them. The reason is that they worked for such poor conditions to get a foot up in the first place and enabled ryanair to be so successful.

The simple fact is, one of the reasons Ryanair does so well is because their crews work so hard in probably the worst terms and conditions in the industry.

Working in the airline industry has changed hugely for the worse since ryanair came along. It's a bit much when they all come on here complaining about their shoddy terms and conditions after they directly drag everyone else's down.

Ryanair's conditions will drive down even further, simply because they can and the pilots will do nothing but complain on the internet.

A question for those who are convinced that staying put and silent in these bad times (105 million euros NET gain) is the way to go just because we have a job and a 18 years old F/O wouldn't have another chance elsewhere:

What will happen 2 years down the line when the last 737 arrives ad the pool of F/O's will be as deep as ever with lots of stby days and the majority of the workforce on BRK contracts?

De facto most F/O's already work sort of 2 ON 7 OFF because the number of STBY days greatly exceeeds the number of working days.

The upgrades will be for the brightest F/O's who joined the company at least 3/4 years before the end of the expansion and given the pretty high failure rate even amongst the brightest ones (most can't manually fly the airplane because they never did after flight school) they will have to put up with a lot of DEC readily available on the market (SkyEurope will shortly feed the RYR lines with plenty of experienced Capt.'s).

So again what's the perspective of those colleagues who think that doing nothing and being silent is the way to go?
What will your thoughts be when in 2012 you will moan about low flying hours, too many STBY's, low income and long way to upgrade and your colleague's answer will be "if you don't like it just leave"?

Whatdoesthisbuttondo

What an absolute load of unadulterated drivel you write.
Many companies that I have spoken with, both their HR and Chief Pilots, are more than happy to take Ryanair pilots, as they are generally well motivated and maintain high standards. (Lower training risks)

I ask you to give facts, when you make statements like the ones in your last post.

Having seen T&C's eroded in the industry even before Ryanair started I can give you the culprits in one word "Accountants".
Again unless you can give proof rather than rumour keep your remarks to yourself or the bar when your allowed out.

UK Viking, your naivety is touching ......


PS you're right about "the very interesting future though " LOL


:)

I also know a chap in a top airline who has told me they actively employ FR pilots because of precisely what you just said - we are hard working in hard conditions.

However this is irrelevant - what you are saying is basically that because our Ts and Cs are not as good as others we are somehow not as good as you?

Also "It's a bit much when they all come on here complaining about their shoddy terms and conditions after they directly drag everyone else's down" -- I think if you spend some time reading this thread the majority of people bad mouthing FRs Ts and Cs are people on the outside who know NOTHING about the company internally and is all hear say and a case of...my friends,brothers,uncles,best friend told me that...
Your other statement that we have nothing better to do than complain on the net....well my friend - what the :mad: is your post about ---Complaining.
Like i said, its 99% people who do not even work for FR complaining about a situation they know nothing of. The only ones who can complain about FR are the guys who work there, who are in the know, and if they so wish to campaign against the company then thats their choice.
Some - or judging by the last few pages on this thread - alot - of people are very happy at FR which doesnt give you the right to start having a go at us.


Finally - Ryanair is a business and out there to make money. As you said "enabled ryanair to be so successful." It is a successful airline. It makes money and does exactly what it says on the tin.
You cannot blame the whole downturn of the industry on one factor. There are many things but yes the introduction of low cost airlines has helped this cause however im sure you are an intelligent person and can work out there are more than a few other loco's flying around. So pointing the finger soley at FR is a tad over dramatic.
Unfortunately the world is changing and its loco. BA didnt keep up and look whats happening there. (great job Balpa!) So if you dont like this no one is making you stay. Either adapt with the change or get out.

whatdoesthisbuttondo,

I think you will find your full of it. The worst T&Cs? Have you looked at Air Berlin? BMI Baby? old Excel/ Viking Uk? Jet2?

Why is it Ryanair pilots always take the rap for 'dragging' everyone else's T's & C's down?

If your T's & C's are getting worse, blame your management, your Pilot group or maybe your union?......

:ugh:

WTSS

Here's the reality.

The FR Edinburgh base operates services to 11 European bases.

The Prestwick base to 11.

Belfast base has 1 aircraft.

Liverpool has services to 12 European bases.

East Midlands has services to 7.

Birmingham operates to 12 bases.

Luton operates to 5.

Bristol has flights to 7 bases in Europe.

Bournemouth operates to 6 bases in Europe.

Each of these bases can be closed, or shrunk to 1 or 2 aircraft, without detriment to Ryanair's operation.

What it will cost are the jobs of pilots, cabin crew and engineers. It will reduce secondary employment at the airports and in the localities and damage the local economies.

Is that what unionisation is for? Is that socialism?

We are in a recession for goodness sake: look beyond the end of your spiteful little noses and consider the effect your action will have on others much less fortunate and dependent, indirectly, on you for their livelihood.

Now is NOT the time.

RSS - another good post put across well.

Now is NOT the time for unionisation. Thankfully the majority of pilots at my UK base see the bigger picture too and how it will negatively affect every Ryanair pilot, CCM, Engineer at every UK base.

The company posted 105 million euros NET profit during what surely is the worst downturn in aviation history, fact.

Those routes that should eventually be operated by EU based aircraft in retalliation to the BALPA campaign will have to be manned by skilled professionals, eventually now UK based crews who will be transferred to the continent.
Or will they just be laid off in favor of newly hired ones?
In the first case the recognition campaign has nothing to do with it because officially the move is due to the new tourist tax imposed in the UK.
In the second case the recognition campaign should still go ahead because such a behavior is surely against any kind of civilized labor law.

Can anybody of the union bashers answer the following question:

What happens in a couple of years when FR will have 300 aircraft and will be hugely overstaffed with plenty of F/O's working 2 days ON and 3 days STBY (if not less) on BRK contracts with command upgrades greatly reduced and the few new captaing flying their areses off on reduced salaries while senior and more expensive Capt.'s will be put on STBY while making zero money on BRK contracts themselves?
Talking about looking beyond noses?

And completely irrelevant to the argument over jobs in the UK as the same profits, if not more, could have been, or will be, generated by operating the same routes but with aircraft and jobs based on the continent.

And if they have wives, family and commitments in the UK? You expect them simply to say "Thanks Dannyalliga, you pushed for BALPA recognition and saved my job at Prestwick.....except it is now spelled Skavsta or Bremen or Trapani. And my partner who was cabin crew lost her job as she didn't want to move from near her mother who is very ill. But not to worry you made certain that job went to a very nice young Swedish / German / Italian lady. By the way, Derek and Clive the engineers at PIK, asked me to send you their regards: they are loving being in Dublin, but their wives aren't and the kids are cheesed off cos they don't see as much of Daddy as they used to"

Did it ever tip toe through your mind that maybe people at Bristol, East Mids, Edinburgh, Liverpool,Birmingham etc bid to go there because they want to be there? That they have houses and families there and that they don't want to have to move with your new civilised laboUr laws?

The overstaffing is conjecture: your conjecture. Because a company overstaffs in anticipation of new deliveries does not mean that the situation will continue indefinitely. There is no seniority in Ryanair so your last point starts with a blatant lie and continues downhill from there.

Any company requires a balance of older crew and younger crew to avoid demographic bumps: but hugely overstaffed??? You need to lie down and not get so excitable.

shady,

in my modest aviation career I had to move about 6 times to 6 different cities in 5 different countries, it's part of this business and when I decided to become an airplane driver I knew this could be a possibility I would have to face sooner or later.
My partner and my kids know that as well and as a family we do whatever it takes not to let some MOL or alikes to ruin our lives just because I like PIK better than DUB.
Surely though my parner would like to know why I have been moved out after say 5 years of loyalty and while a newly promoted and lower paid colleague had the possibility to stay; but mainly my partner would like to know why I just sit there and say nothing when such things happen....

I would love to be able to copy/paste a couple dozen rosters of F/O's who live basically on STBY as well as post a copy of their bank statements so that you wake up to reality and stop thinking like a selfish kid.

P.S.: I would like to apologise for having been so personal even mentioning my colleague Slim Shady, it's not in my style nor in my intentions to become personal with nobody, what I care for is the collective future of not only FR pilots (it's not my first nor my last airline) but of US pilots in general.

Dannyalliga
You have a very myopic view of your situation and unfortunately cannot see the big picture.

The big picture is to stay employed !!
Might I assume that you are on a RYR contract and not Brookfield ?

As I have said before its the RYR pilots who will suffer if you continue to force the BALPA situation.

RSS has a balanced view of the situation, and he is right on the bases which may / can be closed with just a small tweak to the schedules. (Watch this space for further news, which I fear is in the offing)
There is no legal requirement to relocate the pilots, even on a RYR contract and under UK law its not illegal to make those pilots redundant as long as their positions are not filled within 6 months, at those bases by RYR contracted pilots.
They can also say to Brookfield Pilots sit at home we don't need you at the moment.

As to RSS's reference to homes and families, he has a very strong point.
Also the operating profit was wiped out by the RYR loss on the Aer Lingus shares.

So I respectfully request that your Mrs stop nagging you, so that you can get a life and see reality, maybe she will let you out to play with real people soon.

I think danny has hit the nail on the head: nobody wants to move from where they are (if that's where they want to be of course) and keep the advantages that RYR provide. And they are in this industry pretty exceptional: in a nutshell 5 on 4 off, the ability to plan your life a year in advance, back at home every day, nice airplanes, etc.. that is easy for everyone to understand and no wonder we want to keep it that way.

However, what is happening here is that all this can be changed any time now, and indeed has already been changed previously. And it has nothing to do with BALPA being there or not, the management will squeeze us as long as we don't react. So what you are offering Slim is for all of us to keep it quiet, don't rock the boat, it might wake the dragon. This is our problem, management knows this and they are having a field day.

Can you honestly say that it is BALPA’s campaign that has provoked all this roster and basing uncertainty? Or perhaps our agreements have always been fragile, at the mercy of whatever the company wants, it's just more convenient to ignore that fact?

This is what we are fighting for: the power to discuss any changes, to lift some of the uncertainties that we face. And in no particular order this is what we aim to achieve with BALPA recognition:

- A fair paydeal (ask the last upgraded cpt what his basic is, it might come as a little bit of a shock to you)
- A transparent pay scale: you know where you're standing, no secret excel sheet
- The choice of contract: permanent by default, contractor if you wish to do so. Clearly the contractor option will be associated with less stability, ie you'll be the first one to go if laying off
- Fair basing system with associated compensation if base reduction/closure, a more "humane" system than the usual "We can send you anywhere tomorrow if we want to"
- Fair and transparent A/L system: we all know the restrictions in the summer but otherwise we should be able to use 5x 5 days, etc.. Ask your easyJet mate.. what stops us having a similar system?
- Compensation for simulator, flat fee or similar
- Let's send a shockwave to the RYR community: a seniority list! Not for A/L, maybe not even for upgrades. However I am a supporter of LIFO and I believe that that system would stabilise our situation, give you some reassurance. It's not a perfect system, might not even be completely fair, but it is a system (and it doesn't involve little presents to a girl in the backoffice in STN)

The list goes on and obviously dignity and respect are the foundation of such a deal.

Now here's the choice: we don't do anything and no pilot will be able to ever have a say at the future management plans to reduce our T&C's. Or we get together in this, bring representation with BALPA and start the upward curve. And yes, there will be unhappy times in the immediate aftermath of recognition, let's not ignore it. However for me the benefits far outweigh the temporary strops and disruption to our little lives.

There you go, have the balls now or for the ones with another 15,20 or 30 years of career leave your conscience at home when you go to work and never say anything upsetting to the management.

It has been done guys, it's called easyJet. And don't tell me you haven't applied... I would love to know the number of RYR pilots applying to EZY.. just the number hehe

Last thing: number of pilots in RYR: about 2,200 / number of key shaftmeister managers : about 4 ...

rant over

BALPA - Home

Leo missing
 

What happened to the posting from Leo? It was truly a classic incorporating all the best highlights; paranoia, bad language (well only happy chappy Oirish type) swipes at the imperialist British and much more. Had a nice "welcome back" reply and lo and behold it was gone!

Spoken like a real failure. LIFO, for those of our brethren not familiar with the term, means "last in, first out". It has a particular resonance over the pond where lumbering leviathan airlines that should have died off years ago, if not for the ludicrous provisions of Chapter 11, get rid of pilots now surplus to requirements on a presumed seniority system. No matter that pilots numbered 100 thru(sic) 150 are terrific operators and very productive with great attitudes, they will be got rid of before pilots numbered 50 thru(sic) 100 with stale, non co-operative attitudes, failed commands and poisoned dispositions. These older ones will stay, and the younger ones will go. That is what LIFO means.

Perhaps our Florida Freebird needs a geography lesson, but we're not (thank God) in the United States, and different rules apply here. The most important of them is that there IS no Chapter 11, companies need to make money in order to survive, as strange as that must surely sound to you, and at Ryanair we are hiring pilots, officially now the only Major on earth to be doing so, (except for the Luton branch of the Sicilian mob) and we have our attention on growth and success, not downside and failure. A subtle though important difference, as I'm sure you'd agree were you to reacquaint yourself with a lucid moment.

Let me remind you of Her Honour Judge Joan H. Lefkow's recent injuction against your American ALPA and it's filthy tricks campaign against the already moribund United Airlines. So stupidly blinkered are you and those like you, Freebird1106, you haven't even got the guts or strength of character to desert a sinking ship. Evidently, you'd rather stay onboard all the way to the bottom.

You must be so very proud.

NO BLAPA AT RYANAIR.

Leo back not missing
 

That wasn't the post that went missing, very tame by his standards definetely second rate.

Gentlemen, i apologize for interfering with your arguments, but since i too work for FR, i thought you might (just might) be interested how I, a CC, feel about all this BALPA madness.

The main reason why I joined FR was the chance of coming home every night. I know for a fact i could never do long haul, and I joined FR over easyJet for reasons that i'm sure won't interest you.

The way I (and many of my colleagues) see it, if BALPA gets it's vicious way with Ryanair, my job is gone, down the drain, kaput... I'm sorry if i come across as selfish, but in this day an age you got to look after No1. Yes it says in my contract that i may be tranferred somewhere else should the company ask me, but i refuse to transfer to another base and start all over again because of BALPA.

We just bought a house, settled in, close to the base but far enough to escape "work" when having time off. The mortgage is not "peanuts" and we need to stay in our UK base. Believe you me, we can't afford renting in the likes of Skavsta AND paying the mortgage.

Added to that, if the management decides at some point to relocate all UK based a/c and crews somewhere else because of BALPA's irritating way of doing things, it will ruin relationships, lifestyles, people will have to leave loved ones behind, pets, ill parents, you name it. All that for what, so you guys put more money in BALPA's pockets? Don't you rather support your wives/children/partners lifestyle than BALPA's??

Now before you jump and say "well you knew about the implications with this job when you signed the contract", yes i did, i knew that my chosen base will be where i'll be working from for the rest of my FR career and maybe get sent somewhere else for short periods if they are short of crew.
Well tell you what, in 3 years and a half i have never, EVER been asked to operate from another base, nor did it randomly appeared on my roster. They ask crew to volunteer for that and always get the ones who wish to go.
But to be forced to start all over again because of the so called "union for pilots" BALPA? No way Jose.

Speaking to the very new F/O's in my base, some of them are members of BALPA just for the legal protection. Myself and my partner both have aircrew legal insurance and we pay between £7 and £12 a month, not thousands of pounds from our wages like BALPA is asking you to pay (i can give this company's web and e-mail address via pm should any of you wish to find out more) . And where are is the "knight in shining armour" BALPA when you need them? Fannying about that's where, meanwhile your life is stressfull and you feel more and more depressed should you need to hear about your "unfair dismissal" case or whatever else that has to do with your job/employer.

Gentlemen, i really, REALLY don't want to lose my job over this BALPA issue. And if you carry on glorifying the unionisation, i will.

Say NO to BALPA!


Rgds,
ATS

I am sorry to say that base closures are the next phase in this debacle, its as plain as the nose on your face. (Watch this space the signs are already there)

There seems to be only a few Who cannot or will not understand the situation Freebird and Danny to cite but two.

Abusing_the_sky, I hear you loud and clear, and it should be the same from all your colleagues Pilots and Cabin Crew.
The BALPA muppets will bust your A.. every time, as they seek personal agenda's in an I'm alright attitude.

What we are saying to you all is moderation in this current climate, dont push now, back off, the war is not won or over for either side.

Some say that Brookfield Pilots will be the first to go, I am sure you would like to believe that, just be realistic !!
Who is causing more waves the Brookies or the RYR contracted pilots ?
Who costs more the RYR pilots or the Brookfields ?

Economics rule, back off or have hundreds join the dole que's

While you have a job in a reasonably stable company, keep it !!!
Don't throw your work colleagues out of work by insisting upon something that can be resurrected when economies improve.

Bollocks! A fictitious narrative in ten parts.
 

The curtain raises to reveal a wild and magnificent beast, a strange and thin Irish man, bent over a desk on the eastern end of a second floor office building at Dublin Airport. In the corner, a large couldron is bubbling away.

"Eeenie, meanie, mynie moe, catch a BLAPA by the toe, if he squeals I'll let him go, eenie, meanie, mynie moe."

Mandrake of Mulingar is leaning over a map of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and the six stolen counties of God's holy island. His forefinger hovers over red squares strategically placed near several British cities.

"Which one, which one", Mandrake mutters to himself as he reaches for the phone.

"Get me Mugabellew", Mandrake says into the phone and slams it down.

A knock on the door. Enter, stage left, Mugabellew, a fearsome great bear of a man wearing a size XXL T-shirt emblazened with the words 'it's a mighty day in the kingdom' in big green letters.

"Ah, Mugabellew", says Mandrake, "Come here, we need to close one of deze UK bases and I just don't know which one.

"Hooya, boss. What's that dangling from yer earlobes", said Mugabellew.

"Bollocks", said Mandrake.

"No need to be snippy, Boss, I were joost asking, loik", said Mugabellew quizzically.

"Bollock, ya coont, dair bollocks. Pilot's bollocks, to be precise. Oive joost had 'em made, so I have".

"Ah yes. Very fetching. Whose were they?", asked Mugabellew with a chuckle.

"Well, I stole one from da dwarf when he wasn’t lookin’ after dat tellie show we did koz God knows he won't miss it, and de other is from West Drayton Willie. He sent it to me in da post just yesterday, asking for a bit a help wit dem coonts at BA.", said Mandrake

"Ah Grand, so. And how is Willy deese days, Boss", asked Mugabellew.

"F:mad:. Totally foo:mad:d. Dat coo:mad:t Edington sold da family silver years ago and so our Willy hasn't got a ting left to sell, like da pikey coo:mad:t he is. He can trim da staff costs a bit, but he wrapped his bollock in a recent spreadsheet and it doesn't look good, Mugabellew. Dey'll roon outa cash in about eighteen moonts tops, loik, and den its off to da Chancellor wit our Willy and he’ll be looky if he cooms back wit his.

"Why don't we boy 'em, loik", said Mugabellew hopefully.

I taught o'dat, but da coonts have got tree billion in un-f:mad:g-foonded pension-f:mad:g-deficit and oy ain't toochin' dat shyte wit a barge pole, loik".

"Good tinkin, dere boss. What can oi do fer ya, den?", asked Mugabellew.

"I'm after wanting to close one o'dem Brit bases. Which one would you recommend?", asked Mandrake, his earrings dangling in the early dawn light.

"Well, woy not squeeze da one wit da most active BLAPA gobshytes, loik?", asked Mugabellew.

The Mandrake of Mullingar leaned his head back and laughed out loud, the bollock earrings bouncing with the joy of their master.

"It's against me better joojment, loik, dere's a lot of Oirish 'dair, but I suppose yer roit. Prepare da order, so, and oil soyn it after da big Boeing announcement in a few days", said Mulingar Mandrake, "dey brought it on dem selves, ya know, da coo:mad:s", said Mandrake.

Mugabellew smiled and left the office after watching the Mandrake wipe the British map off his desk with an annoyed flourish. As he turned to close the door, Mugabellew saw the Mandrake reaching for a huge and important looking folder, all in green, with a large Shamrock on the front cover. Mugabellew gave a knowing smile to Mandrake from beyond the door, and Mandrake looked over the top of his glasses, raised his hand to the height of his head bid Mugabellew farewell. As he walked away, the Mandrake’s phone rang.

“Good morning, Taoiseach. How can I be of service?”, were the muffled word of Mandrake as Mugabellew walked away.

Leo
Not laughed so much in ages.
Great Post.

Moderator
On what grounds have you removed Leo's last tongue in cheek post ?

It is amazing how indoctrinated some are by Ryanair. It is almost as we are looking at a Stockholm syndrome here... You talk about BALPA as some kind of selfish organization striving to implement its will at the cost of base closures/ job reductions etc. It is not BALPA threatening to close bases, not BALPA freezing command upgrades and erroding T&C.

BALPA is a long term commitment to achieve respect and negotiated (as the term really means) T&C for the employees of one of the most successful airlines in Europe. MOL copied his business strategy from a well known carrier across the pond (who is very well liked by its employees I might add!!) and added a twist of ruthlessness and :mad: all attitude. Ryanair will not stop. The company was born fighting (against air lingus) and that is the only way they know. It is how they work.

Some of you are so overwhelmed by your precious 5/4 roster and your dream base that you would sacrifice almost anything for it. The solidarity within the company is so appallingly low that it disgusts me. So you joined the company with 0 experience and has now risen to a point where you feel comfy. You feel that it's your "turn" as you sacrificed so much by paying for your rating, working for half pay etc and now you finally ended up in the base you want with an amazing 5/4 roster. Good for you. One day you will, eventually, sit with MOL's fist so far stuck up your arse gasping at the impossible: your 5/4 roster is gone and you are being shipped to a base where u don't want to be. Most likely, you would probably still be satisfied in some twisted way...

I think most people who are against the BALPA recognition campaign are really just afraid of pissing off Ryanair. Surely, you can't be against what BALPA is trying to achieve?!? It's is really time to grow a spine. It is time to start thinking about everybody. Not just yourself and your "unique" 5/4 roster. This is war and war has casualties. Ryanair is a bad ass tough opponent and the employees (not just the pilots) will never have any rights or terms with whiners who are afraid to stand their ground. Are you not at all curious about what BALPA can achieve?

To all employees of FR: You are worth a lot better terms and a lot more respect and than you are enjoying today. You have an opportunity to make a difference. Take it!

Vexed

The APD is only a small part of the reason, in fact an excuse.

Base closures will occur not as a strategy to get rid of the APD (Which I do not agree with) but as a way of reducing loss making bases, whilst sending a message to BALPA members that they could be next.

Any of the bases RSS mentioned could be closed within weeks, maybe the loudest shouting for BALPA will be first.

APD is another way for our bankrupt government to recoup some of the billions it has spent rescuing the banks, and will in all cases be increased rather than reduced (As in other EU countries) as long as Brown and his lackeys are in power.

Are you by any chance ex VEX ?

LeftHeadingNorth

You seem to have lost the plot in more ways than one.
Its not that a common voice or union should represent RYR and Brookfield pilots.
It is that now is NOT the time.

BALPA only works if its a two way street, do you see this happening in the current economic climate.
If so send me a pair of your glasses, as i should love to see the rosey tint.

Leo
Interesting. Are you sure you do not simply reject the use of LIFO in favour of your own oligarchical decision making, were it the case you had to make such a choice?

I think you do.

Calling all EMA Pilots
 

In response the recent communication that some of you may have receieved from Captain **** ****** urging you to VOTE NO to BALPA in EMA, we thought we would clear up a few points of error and make some observations.

Cpt * Wrote - “If the CAC determine that 10 per cent of the workers are union members they can impose statutory recognition: in effect, that means as few as 10 pilots could decide whether or not the BALPA application is successful”

This is factually incorrect and totally misleading, to proceed to an anonymous recognition ballot, then at least 10% of the bargaining unit (to be defined) would need to be union members .
If it is shown that 10% are union members then all that guarantees is that it would proceed to an anonymous ballot, in which 50% +1 of the base would need to Vote in favour of recognition and over 40% of the bargaining unit would need to vote.

If less than 40% of the bargaining unit cast a ballot then there is NO recognition. (i.e if only 39% voted and all in favour - it wouldn't happen) if over 40% cast a ballot then of those at least 50% +1 will need to vote in favour. To vote NO or abstain at this point is to vote against recognition.
Recognition cannot be imposed with only 10% membership in the bargaining unit and to suggest so is false and misleading. 10% only secures the opportunity for a democratic and anonymous vote to happen in which only the majority verdict will stand..
Do you believe in Democracy?

Captain * is assuming that the bargaining unit will be EMA pilots and EMT pilots, this may happen and is certainly what Ryanair would choose, though it is still to be negotiated at the CAC for reasons as undiscussed here. It will be the CAC who will decide wether EMA and EMT are one or separate.

Cpt * Said - “The only counter the company has to this is to reduce the workforce to 21 or fewer, effectively moving 5 aircraft, and the jobs of 100 + staff, abroad. By taking that action, the company could then apply to the CAC for de-recognition. All of this is prescribed in the Employment Law.”

Again Captain * should look a little bit wider at the law, and be careful with what he puts in writing for his own protection. It is illegal to threaten people with redundancy for trying to pursue union recognition. Ryanair will argue the case is merely a business decision, but with statements like that it can be challenged.
Cpt * Said - ”In addition, the company has already stated that if recognition is imposed we will lose our 5/4 roster, reverting to 5/ 2, and lose our allowance payment. As I indicated above, UK regional bases will close or shrink and the jobs moved to Europe. We have already seen the imposition of a UK base freeze and the ending of Command Upgrades for UK based F/Os.”

As previous point, but again of note, These punative measures are management imposed, Ryanair pilots want to work for you not against. In the contract you hold, it states clearly that if “union recognition is imposed your roster will revert to 5/3 with 5/2 six times a year”. Besides the fact that the current agreement was imposed on you, without, we are told, any formal ERC in EMA. If we get to this stage and 5/2 is imposed it will be a contract breach and will be challenged. Many believe you will be on 5/3 next spring anyway as per your Italian bases.
Cpt * Said ”This presents you, the pilot with a choice: do you wish to have BALPA pursue their application for recognition at EMA, or do you want them to stop now ? “
and;
"Everyone of us has the right to join a trade union, be it BALPA,
A handful of BALPA members could therefore force their opinions and beliefs on the majority of us: that is not, I submit, democratic”.

Whilst we fully agree with the first part of Cpt * statement, that everyone has the right to join a union. We also believe EVERYONE has the right to have their own say. The latter statement about a few deciding the opinions is completely false and misleading. If you are against recognition, thats your choice, but know this this as FACT you will only have it imposed on you against your will if over 50% + 1 of your colleagues vote in favour of it, and not by any other means. We would encourage you to all to check yourself rather than believing the rhetoric and mis-truth being imposed on you.
Again do you believe in Democracy?
Cpt * wrote ”It is my opinion, which may run counter to yours, that this BALPA campaign is ill-timed and lacking a cohesive structure: I cannot get an answer to the simple question " What are the precise benefits recognition will bring?"

We honour and respect your opinion Captain *, if it is merely your opinion that is making you so pro-active. Your questions are valid, and do not forget that many are at very different stages of their careers to you. BALPA is not some transient third party fairy godmother that decides your fate, it is fellow pilots who will work tirelessly for the long term career objectives of the majority. Remember their is no place for BALPA if the majority 50% +1 don't vote in favour. We want you to have your say at a democratic ballot in which all will have their opportunity.

Once you have checked yourself, that Union recognition can not be imposed with only 10% of the base, (10% only guarantees an anonymous vote of which 50%+ 1 is needed), then we suggest you wait and listen to both sides of the argument or at least allow others to do so and then democratically vote or abstain as you see fit.

Your questions are valid and will be answered, in due course. BALPA will soon have legal access to pilots in all bases, which they don't do today enabling a balance of communication channels and a lot more open debate.

It is worthy of note, that Cpt * is the man most actively encouraging people to effectively Vote 'Yes' for Ryanair management. We are under the impression from numerous sources that the very same individual just 3 months ago was the loudest and most active Anti management voice in the base when the last deal was imposed on you.

Cpt * wrote ”My opinion is based on solid opinion of BALPA and not rhetoric.”

When you the recipients, who received the email check the facts yourself and not merely the opinion that underpinned the email, One opinion that has been expressed, and maybe worthy to note is that the Base TRE job is available.
Was the false insinuation of imposed recognition a genuine mistake, or are there other motivations for taking such an action to try and deny you a democratic vote. Many will act out of pure self interest thats not to say that Captain * has. But always weigh motivations.

“I propose that we undertake a ballot, conducted by email to verify your identity to me and a single auditor - and hence your right to vote - to decide whether we, as a bargaining unit at EMA, want BALPA to represent us.”

Firstly what right does Captain * think he has to organise a counter, un-democratic and clearly non anonymous vote, in fact knowing Ryanair , we believe it is inconceivable that this counter vote would have been done without some official sign off or approval.
Is their a nice little cut in it, will he end up the base TRE, Do you believe in democracy?
Despite todays text messages of which we have received copies alluding to the fact that 90% are not in favour, in a vote NO to BALPA counter vote, We will sleep very comfortably.
Without giving to much away, that statement will shortly be proved to be false There is a considerably large number of people in EMA base to guarantee you will get to have a fair and democratic vote.

As Cpt * has asked you to email a preference, to him, which is indentifying you (a mere pilot with no mandate and not an ERC official) , we naturally understand many may feel feel threatened or intimidated.

If you are sure you want to Vote YES to Ryanair management, (sector pay cut in the coming months, further cuts likely next spring with a likely 5/3 for summer months as per Italy) or are absolutely sure you know all the facts and are definitely opposed to BALPA, then please go ahead and sign Cpt * misleading petition, your democratic choice is yours alone.
Even though this process is designed to prevent you from having a democratic vote or from the will of the majority being accepted, whichever way that may end.

If you want to weigh up FACTS, and are willing to listen to both sides, (BALPA will be in your base soon) you will have the chance to vote whichever way you see fit when the time comes.
For recognition 50% +1 must vote YES, that is the only way BALPA will be recognised in Ryanair, it is the way of democracy and I think all are happy to defer to the majority if a fair vote is held.

You are being asked to stifle debate and to prevent your colleagues from having a democratic choice, from hearing all sides of the opinion, and are being pressured into making a very early choice based on mistruths and for who knows what motivations. Besides the fact it will not work, as we know the true base level of support in all bases as of today with petition, membership and people on the ground. Is it not conceivable to you that Ryanair, don't want you to here all sides before you make reasoned choice at the ballot box.

We will never force ourselves on anyone, it is an untrue perception. We are facilitating members wishes and will always do so. It is they, your collegaues who are driving this. You will have your say.

So we put forward these options to you all in EMA.

First check the FACTS.

Then;

If you are sure you don’t Want BALPA, and are happy you know both sides of the argument and prefer to stick with Ryanair Management – Vote NO for BALPA

If you are Unsure yet and wish to weigh it up facts first or
You DO want BALPA – We suggest you do not reply to Cpt * Email.

In the counter vote being arranged by Cpt * It will be impossible for you to VOTE in favour of BALPA and we do not suggest it. even abstention carrys risk. We all saw what happened in STN just days ago.

If you feel pressured to reply for fear of consequence, and you DO want BALPA or you want to weigh up facts first and hear our side when we enter the bases, then we suggest for your protection you vote NO to BALPA.

And at the very same time, do what some of your base colleagues are already doing.

Reply to Captin * and Say that you Vote - No to BALPA, but before you do that (preferably), or on the same day at the least
Email:

[email protected] (07831577016)

Saying that you felt compelled or pressured and would actually prefer to VOTE YES or wait until a free and fair vote.

We can then use this proof that you felt pressured and Your Vote NO to BALPA from Cpt * email can then be removed by the CAC.

We want to ensure you all get the chance of a free vote and let the majority decide, make sure you pass this message on to your colleagues

A magical story by LHC
 

Thank you for that LHC i havn't laughed so much in ages.

that line alone is going to keep me chuckling for a week.

Regarding Captain *******'s memo to pilots,

As I've said before, simply replace "BALPA" with "ERC" and then read the above statement again.

See what I mean ? (Unpaid leave, changes to the A/L system)

People are saying NOW is not the time. If the vote is negative and BALPA are locked out for another 3 years, what do you think is going to happen in the meantime ?

BALPA want's secure long term employment for it's members, the current campaign is about "Dignity and Respect" and trying to ensure that the pilots in Ryanair are represented by a voice that's heard and genuinely represents the views and wishes of the pilots. They realise that times are tough within the aviation industry and I have seen nothing in any communication that states they are going to seek an immediate pay rise upon election.

The current ERC system does not work !!! Whilst there are some individuals at some bases trying to do a good job on behalf of the pilots, many are not and I would even go so far as to say some are corrupt.

A Captain at an non UK base, is currently facing disciplinary action and embroiled in a court action with the company (for the second time in his career) for the simple act of trying to organise a replacement ballot for the ERC members at his base !

Is this "democratic" ? I think not ! We are not living in some banana republic !!!


:ugh:


Over to you Slim .........

Would somebody like to enlighten us on the outside. ?

Are we talking ALL Ryanair pilots which include the Brookfield guys and girls to be represented by BALPA. ?

Or The Ryanair contracted pilots only.

Yourvoteyourchoice.

What are you on, or did you just get back from the pub before you wrote that totally confusing post. (Do you have level 4 English or ever preview what you have written)
If you want to get your message across K.I.S.S. works for most of us.
50%+1 is all you need Yes, but will the voting body include ALL the pilots based at EMA, or again just the RYR contracted pilots who of course have more to loose and will be in the majority BALPA members.

The problem that you have here is simple, BALPA cannot represent the Brookfield pilots even if they are members.
And to omit them from any vote is undemocratic.

Daydreamer Our deepest apologies for spelling out facts to EMA pilots. It is written for them, they received a very long email with a blatant mistruth at its centre. unfortuantely we don't hold a level 4 in the art of bull***ting. We believe in democracy.

As for the Brookfield question, interesting one, as the whole situation was created by Ryanair and is used by them to manipulate contracts, people and scenarios. Not unlike a management stance though, to blame BALPA for the deliberate division and exploitation they created. Of course it is preferential to be all inclusive. Many on Brookfield want Ryanair contracts others don't. There will be intensive negotiations at the CAC of whom and what may constitute a bargaining unit. and those results will then be published for all to see and for others to comment on. Things which are not going to be expressed today in a public forum. All Brookfielders who want to be Ryanair and are Brookfield against their choice should be given that option. Wether the nice fluffy and caring management in Ryanair allow it or will continue to use people against one another is a question you should put to them.

Just for you Daydreamer, even though I guess you are not EMA based. I have edited the previous post and put into bold all of captain * remarks on which comment was made and an email was sent to EMA pilots last night, stating the obvious mistruth, and making the case for all to have the ability to exercise their democratic right to choose their own path and not have yours or Captain *'s misleading statements, imposed upon them.

If you don't want it, don't vote for it, but make sure you get to vote on it.

Really Daydreamer, I do hope they pay you well!, Do you ever sleep, are you human! Are you the stig?

You seem to be one of the first to reply to all things Ryanair. Hate to think you are just sat there all day and and night just to waiting for someone to write so you can add you anti union stance.

Go Make MugaBellew a cup of tea, tell him how you think you're progressing, maybe the needs a shoulder massage from all his typing and then go stretch your legs ;).

We will fight for all, and we want all to have a democratic choice, but we will also be bull**it busters, and need to point out where people are being mis-informed.

Kettles boiled.