From someone who has a posting history of two posts, both today, both in the same thread, on the same subject !

Leo Hairy Camel = Anti British
 

yourvoteyourvoice - very good posts.A complete contast to the anti union rhetoric posted on here by those who wish to keep others down while they are well taken care of by ryanair to spout their misinformed and misleading union busting rubbish(or ANTI BRITISH posts in the case of Leo Hairy Camel).The simple facts are that ryanair pilots whatever colour,creed or contract are getting poorer and poorer,in real terms in stark contrast to other companies while being treated like absolute slaves,in the pursuit of profit.The ryanair management stooges and misinformed cabin crew who post on here can plead that this is not the right time or offer up any other excuses,along with some posting here who are undoubtedly management plants,wish to see the status quo maintained to the continued detriment of ryanair pilots livelihoods.
The fact is that all that stands between ryanair management slashing terms and conditions much further has always been and is now the threat of union recognition,should recognition vote fail through apathy or ignorance.This will lead to this protection being lost for 3 years during which time ryanair management will rape at will and the pilots in ryanair have no where to go.so to say that it is someone elses problem is no longer good enough.this is a ryanair pilot problem of which they hold the solution.use it or you will pay well for not!!

BALPA getting one over MOL.???????.............
 

....I think not!

MOL will beat BALPA on this no matter what it takes or what the collateral damage is.

He will close bases and move jobs abroad.

So guys, tell me, if Balpa get in and Ryanair close down all UK bases, 5/2 roster and send us abroad how will you feel then?
Will you stand by the crew room door and say to all those CCMs and engineers who loose their jobs that Balpa is the way forward?
Will you still stand by Balpa and say how much "good" they've done then?
What about when Balpa and FR meet for "negotiations" -
Balpa "pilots want their 5/4 roster back"
Ryanair "No"
What can Balpa do then - organise a strike? Great - even more job losses.
Ryanair do not have to do anything they dont want to do. :ugh:

If balpa are NOT elected in, for the next 3 years things will certainly be better than if they were!

Bilderberger - on what basis are those assumptions made,because mol has said so?well then you are a bigger idiot than he is to believe them.But then is suppose there is no need to have a scrap of integrity or even use your own ideas as long as you are home every night.

No commandb - if ryanair have a 3 year union recognition ban,you will be raped even harder as was the case the last time around.But i suppose 3 years may be a career for some.

Please advise which carriers are increasing payscales or T&C's for pilots right now.

yourvoteyourchoice,

I see your BALPA Gods spent something close to £470,000 on lunches and meetings (or Members' and other admin expenses as you call it)

Is the meal deal from Boots we all have for work not good enough for you?

Grim Repa

These 'assumptions' are made on MOL's past performance.

I think the chances of MOL being rolled over by BALPA are zero.

Come to think of it someone should run a book!

I would still like someone from BALPA or a BALPA hardliner to spell out exactly what the benefits will be?

Not tree hugging "improvements to the T & C's" but some definitive and tangible declaration of how our lives will be better.

Incidentally the "blatant mistruth" in the email I got is actually in the Employment Act:

But then I guess that's just more BALPA bullsh1t :D:D

Abusing the Sky - We are talking about the long term careers of pilots. And you are CC, no disrespect to you as your partner is a pilot. But your career and training is not that of a pilot and as such sarcastic comments, probably born out of your partners opinion and your own vested interests are not welcome. I would never try and involve myself in your career. It is not for you to decide the careers of other pilots, or to rush to judgements. but it is for your partner, who has valid concerns and questions and if you support his opinion as a pilot, then that is fair enough. I appreciate, that if things don't go his way that impacts you. Just as all decisions will affect other crews with partners/families & ties. It is for each pilot to weigh up the facts and make their own judgement, and then decide in their own career interest, and for what they perceive is either the best long term (if thats your view) or short term (if thats your view). but rest assured the majority will decide. As for the food, now where did you get that info, your fella, maybe they should buy it in Romania rather than Boots, surely that would save a few leu & bani ??

bilderberger - can you give me some examples of those prior action in closing pilot bases and moving pilot jobs abroad due to pilot unions that ryanair have perpetrated?curious.

And so a pie fight ensues.

I have to be honest, while it does appear that perhaps in a viable climate there might be perhaps be an argument for some form of unionisation in fr, is it really worth it?

Would the benefits really out way the suffering along the way?

I mean this in the nicest way, but all you old boys out there who still hold onto the romance that is aviation - wake up times have changed. When you have an FNG who is prepared to fork out 40k for a job and then earn SFA, what chance do we have.

Face it 'bare faced terry', you need the fr pilots more than they need you. The low cost army is the future, while B***** All is dead in the water.

I mean this be a constructive post and not a rant at other peoples expense.

Times have changed and so has the industry. The dignity and respect is not what those pilgrims of fallen companies might once have strived for. May I suggest that in the present economic climate, a job fulfils the dignity prerequisite and the respect is being able to put food on your families table!

Now is not the time to fight for terms and conditions, now is the time to pull together and thus safe guard our jobs.

The boss's at fr do what they do, and they do it well. The fact is that we forced them into the UK base freeze, and thus we are costing the company money.

So Balpa, go away, become an attractive proposition, and if you still exist in a few years, come back at a more appropriate time! :cool:

Why is it not a good time for to have representation from BALPA ??????

Presently our jobs are hanging by a very fragile thread, and at the whim of bad managerial decisions. Any job losses will be down to the pig headed decision made in the White House. Peoples lives have already been turned upside down, caught in the middle of the battle between the Government over increased taxes.

Uk bases have already been frozen with the threat of closures.

Can the current CEO afford to take on a United Pilot Group. Can he afford to be seen to lose another Half Billion Plus. Maybe his luck has run out and it's time for a fresh change for Ryanair.

what continues to slay me is this perception of "management bad decisions". you do not know, unless you are party to the decision making process what is a bad decision and what is not.

One specific person may consider something to be a "bad decision" however that is merely speculation unless you have all the facts and contributing factors of the process to hand.

Either way, an air carrier is NOT a democracy or an embodiment of of socialism, IT IS A BUSINESS, it is there to generate revenue, to generate income for the shareholders.

If you want to make management decisions, start your own airline, take the risk yourself, the regulatory bodies wont stop you if you meet all the criteria, heck, they'll HELP YOU!

Then lets see how you respond to a socialist stance in your operation and quotes of " pilots whatever colour,creed or contract are getting poorer and poorer,in real terms in stark contrast to other companies" when the vast majority of operations are in a very precarious position and laying off crews.

Like lambs to the slaughter ........

Sigh



:sad:

"Bad Decisions" made by the Current CEO, who did not start Ryanair, and is merely an employee, by the way.

The proof of which would be the result I suppose.

Pig headed fuel hedging policy.

Gambling shareholders money on crazy take over bids.

Are they good or bad decision

It's worth pilots in good airlines reading these Ryanair threads just to make them appreciate their own airline more.

Still, I suppose it's a bad day when your only consolation is "At least we don't work for Ryanair" It's like saying "At least we didn't crash" or "At least we don't have the ebola virus"

I'm amazed pilots who work so hard to become qualified pilots accept being treated so poorly. I can't imagine when you started training you thought that this is what you aspired to.

yourvoteyourchoice,

If you read the name of the thread, Ryanair thoughts, you will then realize that i have every right to get involved and have my say as
a) I too work for FR

b) The BALPA involvment (if any) within the company's managerial decisions WILL affect MY (and not only mine, there's the engineers, the ground staff, the pregnant ladies on ground duties) job (and career) too, in so many ways i dread to even think about.

If my partner works or doesn't work for FR is completely irrelevant and with all due respect, none of your business. It might come as a surprise to you but i am capable enough to do my own research, make an opinion and state it as I see it fit.

Please enlighten me, where have i made a statement that made you believe that? Of my only 3 posts on this thread, one contained a CC's view on the BALPA matter and how it will affect the CC's jobs/career, one was simply asking a question with regards to the so called BALPA "expenses" after a quick research on it's website and reading the BALPA Year End Accounts 2007 (which is a public document) and this post which is a reply to yours.

Indeed it is. However, IMHO, that statement is a tad arrogant. What i read between the lines is that pilots should put career first before families, loved ones, friends and so on. With the help of BALPA, of course.

Have you got a family Mr. yourvoteyourchoice? Kids? How would you feel not having the chance to tuck them into bed every night when you're on earlies and take them to school when you're on lates? Because that's what is going to happen if BALPA gets its way; people have said this time and time again: MOL will close the UK bases, relocate a/c's and transfer crews all over Europe. Result? Lives ruined because of BALPA's greediness...

And Mr. yourvoteyourchoice, as long as i still work for FR and have a career with them, i will always have my opinion on work related issues. And i will always state it, either you like it or not. Free speech and all that...

Your post sums up your understanding of how businesses work.

What is stopping you putting a business plan together, obtaining the management team and the funding to start an operation that will make all the *right* decisions ?

A the S

Are you aware that Ryanair frequently terminate CC's before their first anniversary. I believe they can make profit by the conveyor belt training system.

As a fellow employee I welcome your view here, although I don't agree with it. I understand your concerns about the possibility of losing your job, but that will be as a direct result of the companies action.

How does your conditions compare to someone in a similar role in a company, that respects it's employees and are willing to negotiate on terms and conditions.

B W.

When confronted with choices, possibly life or death decisions, as a Pilot.

First define what the Problem is that requires an action. Then you gather as much Information as possible. Then identify your Options. Once you have all your options, you then need to Select one. And then you Execute the option you selected. Most important you need to Evaluate your selected option and continue the process if necessary.

With me so far......

So the problem that exits in Ryanair.

Problem - Constant degradation in terms and conditions.

Information - Personal experience from being here for so long.

Options - Keep head down and take it up the ***.
Get together with fellow employees and push for Union Rec. or as you suggest Start own Airline.

After That you'll prob want me to buy the loss making airline next door also......

Good job you management types don't have to do 6 month sim checks etc.

intimidatepilot,

I've been in Ryanair long enough to see CC coming and going. I am aware of the money FR makes out of training the CC. I am also aware of the fact that if you don't do the job as they want you to do it, you're out. That's why such huge CC turnover in FR: because the majority don't see the reality of it, they are so disappointed, they find it very hard work and can't cope.

Do i agree with every decision the management makes? No, not at all. But it's a job, it pays the bills. Better have one than none. And I have my good and my bad days, but oddly enough for some, i enjoy it.

I would suspect it's pretty much the same elsewhere. I never, once, had been picked on by the management and be treated like a door mat. I go in, do my job, come back and pick up the money at the end of the month. Guess i'm good at what i do methinks...


Over to you gentlemen.

Can I go back to the point about the EMA anti- BALPA ballot:

Whether you believe in BALPA or not, there should be a fair and anonymous vote for everyone to make their own choice so that majority rule can prevail.

If you don't want BALPA, then either vote no or don't vote at all at the subsequent ballot. But there should be a ballot to find out what the majority wants.

To not have the ballot in the first place is un-democratic.

Abusing the Sky, with all my respect, I really don't think you should be part of this discussion. We all know how CC gets abused in RYR and believe me they if anybody need to get unionised! So for you to join into this discussion sounds to me like a little strange, almost as if you had some good advice from your superiors... May I remind you of why a captain got dismissed recently? Tell me how that all started? Please assure me you do not hold any kind of managerial position within your base? We all know the scam behind the training companies and my personnal opinion is that there is a great level of abuse with contracts from management. Nobody wants to lose anything here, starting with their job and base, but look at your situation now, what makes you think that RYR would have a problem to close a base with or without balpa?

Abusing the Sky. . . Yes, of course you're "good at what you do".

You turn up, work hard for some of the worst Ts and Cs around, you don't complain etc.

Do you honestly believe (m)any other airline pilots are on the same Ts and Cs as ryanair? Really?

Are you going to work at your current rate until you are 55-60? When you retire what pension will you get? What job protection do you have? What happens if your base closes, if your company want to relocate you, what package will you get? What private health , staff travel arrangements do you get? What happens if you get ill and are off long term?

FreeBird and whatdoesthisbuttondo,

I am just a No1 and i can assure you that i wouldn't go to any management positions even if they were offered to me on a silver plate; the only time i get to be a "manager" is when i operate and i'm "managing" my crew.

I said it before that a) i have every right to post here as i too work for FR and i believe that BALPA will do nothing but jeopardize my job and b) i am not being "advised" by anyone, these are my opinions and, i'm sorry to come out of my "ladylike" zone, but opinions are like a$$holes: everyone has one. Is it that hard to believe that a tiny CC who knows she's just a number on the payroll has actually the "balls" to voice over her beliefs?

Isn't that a bit selfish gentlemen, it's all "pilots pilots pilots" and with all due respect you obviously have more training and more responsabilities, but how about the 150 odd CC in my base when the base closes, how about the engineers and so on?

The sensibile folks know exactly what MOL will do should the recognition go through, people have said it time and time again, and there will be NOTHING BALPA can do about it. It's going to happen based on a "commercial decision" and the BALPA buggers will sit back and pocket the (your!) membership money.

VLC had a very good performance as a base, yet MOL closed it after a tiff with the apt authorities. Don't you think the same will happen with the UK bases as i would class what's going on between BALPA and FR management a pure tiff??

Frankly gentlemen, your arrogance is astonishing. You want the Fairy BALPA to (maybe, depending on which side of the bed they got out that morning) back you up at the cost of everyone else losing their jobs. Nice one!:D

I'll cross that bridge when i come to it but thank you for your concern. i might decide next year that i want to be a housewife, who knows, but for the time being i'd like to stay where i am. If the base closes, it will only be because of the "unionasation".
I have a private pension fund that will see me through the years when i'm old and wrinkly. I have private healthcare which isn't cheap, but at least it's always there when i need it, unlike NHS waiting rooms where you'll be seen by someone 4 hrs later after you arrived.

If my opinion and "thoughts on FR" upset you then i apologize, but i won't stop posting because . Is it because i'm telling the truth?

Thank you for your very kind reply Vexed and i too respect the truth as you see it. It's nice when you can have a debate with someone who doesn't tell you to get off the thread because you don't "belong" here.

I totally agree that maybe, at some point, the company should be unionized. But not now, not by BALPA. In my view, BALPA will take your money and do bugger all when you need help, should you ever need it.

I read their T&C's and in very, VERY small print it says that they will only represent you if they think you can win the case. They won't even try to fight your corner.

If you want legal protection, at way lower cost than BALPA's, there are other places you could get it from. But then again it's all down to people's views on things and what they think it's best for them.

Ozymandias, with all due respect, are you a BALPA member? Do you still have the membership booklet they sent along with your membership card? Have a read through that and then tell me i'm (and so many other people are) wrong.

All animals are equal,........
 

Curiously enough in the CC forum, posts by non-CC on similar subjects get deleted.

ATS that's being a bit unfair to Balpa as it implies that on any issue unless they think they will win they won't bother. I can tell you from personal experience that it is simplifying matters to your own end. If it is a matter say of going to court then no organisation including the CPS will carry on unless there is a realistic prospect of winning, ask someone in the Police about that. If you think that a legal protection insurance company is going to fight your corner on say a 25% chance of winning when your premiums are as low as you allude to then you are mistaken. What also seems to get lost in all of this is that Balpa is not some big brother anonymous entity but it is what the members make it. It is run by its members who should steer its policy as long as there are people who are willing to take on that role and not just hide away.

Can't we just be left alone?!
 

Right.

Someone please tell me who asked BALPA to get involved? I have said it before on this site (and have been accused of being management for it) and I will repeat it: the vast majority of my colleagues are happy in their jobs. Yes, T's & C's are changing and pay is being reduced but they are elsewhere too.

I'll repeat it again actually, we're happy in our jobs at Ryanair.

We, as Ryanair pilots, have a very secure job. Sorry, I meant HAD a very secure job, until BALPA came along. Now there's no command upgrades for FO's. Now there's a base freeze. Brilliant.

MOL has said all along that even if this goes through he wont do anything BALPA want and he doesn't have to, all he has to do is listen. He'll listen to them say "please re-open stansted, luton, east midlands, bristol......." "any chance you could give the pilots back 5/4 they really liked that"

So what am I going to do as a Ryanair pilot? I'm going to vote no and hope that BALPA don't get in. Then I'm going to hope that they reverse the base freeze and command upgrade decisions.

Still no-one has commented to say how BALPA are going to change my life for the better and as far as I can see they wont.

Our Chief Exec. is an arsehole but I believe it when he makes threats. He has proven time and time again that he will cut off his nose to spite his face and if that means closing down UK bases and putting us all on 5/2 then I believe he'll do that.

If you think that Ryanair pilots are just being fat and dumb that's fine, but I can assure that happy should be added to that list. Just stop trying to get involved.

P.S. Captain J*** L***** and Terry - if you want to have a playground fight feel free to do so, just don't do it in my effing inbox.

Who asked BALPA to get involved - would the answer to that question be Ryanair Pilots.

I get the same emails as you: where should the issue be ventilated? Here, or in house?

Strikes me that the responses have been quite subdued when you consider that the BALPA email was quite scurrilous.

You behave like a nimby: let everyone else do the work and you'll take the benefit. If you don't want BALPA vote against it, you have the email address like the rest of us. Don't just mouth off about it here.

I want an answer
 

What benefit?

That wasn't rhetorical by the way, I genuinely want to know what benefits there are and that can be told to me on repaweb.
It's clear what the problems will be.

I keep hearing "if you don't do something about it now your t's & c's will continue to be reduced" - but again, I genuinely want to know what will be done to prevent this. As far as I am aware, as I previously said, MOL doesn't need to take any action BALPA request, he just has to attend meetings. So how is that going to make an ounce of difference?

Those who are telling us to act - please answer the above. I don't mean that in any confrontational way, and I apologise if my previous post was interpreted in that manner (just finished lates and missed a bbq, pissed off already), I just want an answer.

Finally:

My point was that I don't want these emails. If I want advice I will ask for it from my peers, which I have done.

I don't want to see:

1. emails from people who I haven't given my address to
2. text messages from people who I haven't given my phone number to
3. mol's, pb's, dob's etc immature propoganda memos and posters
4. bgy as my base on next months roster

Attention Luton Pilots
 

Great posts Bonglebear.


Also news posted in Luton crew room:

LUTON PILOTS

"...[sic]... Following a meeting earlier today in Dublin, if Balpa are recognised at Luton. Luton as a base WILL close. (i repeat - LTN WILL CLOSE) Luton pilots WILL NOT be offered a position at another bases.
Any other UK base gaining recognition will result in the same outcome.
The following will apply elsewhere if Balpa recognition gained:
1) 5/2 6/3 roster
2) Base transfer freeze and no CU courses.
3) Loss of allowances...."

***LUTON PILOTS*** to ensure we still have a job please sign the proposal for pilots AGAINST Balpa recognition which is next to the whiteboard, LOEPS...etc. This is very serious - this is your livelihood we are talking about now.

A the Sky......


In my opinion your posts are very valid to this discussion. It's a pity your CC friends don't post as well. Would be nice to hear some of their experiences. Find it hard to believe they were good enough to be released after line training and then after one year of successfully doing their duties in a safe manner, only to be replaced by someone with less exp...you know the truth, so don't pretend.

Reading between the the lines you honestly say how things are. And I think your posts, like all the intimidation from the w house are actually improving the possibility of a positive outcome from the future democratic elections.

If you are not happy - You could always start your own airline - as suggested by a previous poster.

Hope you are enjoying this warm weather we are having.

Who knows where we'll be next year. Maybe with BALPA we might have a say.

Anyone care to take a pic of this LTN memo with their mobile phones and post it on the web?
If it follows an official meeting it will be surely signed by those who promulgated it and would be of interest to all viewers be it UK based or not.


During WWII there were countries which cowardly opened their doors to the Nazis in fear of retaliation and those which fought back; if today german is not Europe's official language we have to be grateful to the latter ones.

Great to see that this debate is drawing the management snakes out from under their stones.

commandb thanks for posting the latest ryanair managements threats and intimidation attempt.how pathetic to see that some pilots still cannot see the **** they are in,working at ryanair.along with the management stooges and plants on here.i have yet to see why i would not vote for BALPA recognition.This is the pilots of ryanairs' chance and we are going to make sure it gets through.

danny the ltn list has been recorded and forwarded to the interested bodies.

I can't believe Ryanair actually threaten to close a base where BALPA is recognised and not give the crews a job anywhere else. I was genuinely shocked to read that.

How low have your expectations fallen if any of you here think that's acceptable.

Surely it must only be the managers on here pretending to be pilots that can think that's O.K.

Quote from The Real Slim Shady :-


And what, pray tell, do you think the Ryanair "Recognition Roulette" communication was ?

At least BALPA have the guts to put a name at the bottom of their written communications !


PS Don't feed the trolls !


PPS Re the LTN "news" , sounds like a load of unsubstantiated b*****ks to me, probably spread in panic by Anti union supporters or just another union busting technique. Very much doubt it's authenticity.

I think your boss is a complete Arse and I really do wish you guys/gals all the best! Do not let this excuse for a human being degrade you anymore. I am a Balpa member with another Loco and I only have to look at Ryanair to see what life would be like if we never had a voice!:eek: