Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

Are we ever going to see US style pay. If not, why not?

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Are we ever going to see US style pay. If not, why not?

Old 29th Nov 2023, 09:38
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Location: London
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In this ever changing world I personally think get the most amount of cash as fast as you can and invest invest invest ! Also start a side hustle !
just look at Covid ….
now look at the wars etc..

in my previous company we had a 34 year pay scale !!! Made me laugh when people said “when I get to year 30 etc…”

In aviation disaster is just 1 step around the corner.

Basicsteve is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2023, 11:37
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: world
Posts: 46
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by CW247
I have seen non TR A320, B737 and ATR opportunities this week.

Yeah, I saw (and applied with other 3 colleagues) to the one you think of i believe, but one thing is posting an ad, the other is actually hiring.....for how I see it, its mostly as a "we have to post it but dont really care about it"

One example which means nothing overall is for a small regional Irish company with an ad went from NTR 150tt posting to TR 1000tt and 200 on machine in the span of two weeks.....which means they got loads of CVs for the first, dumped all and reposted when notice that the "shortage" is only real for experienced pilots


Anyway, to avoid derailing this thread, ill go back to my corner lurking

Last edited by spiffolo; 29th Nov 2023 at 11:47.
spiffolo is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2023, 23:02
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: Spain
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by CW247
I have seen non TR A320, B737 and ATR opportunities this week.
Originally Posted by spiffolo
Yeah, I saw (and applied with other 3 colleagues) to the one you think of i believe, but one thing is posting an ad, the other is actually hiring.....for how I see it, its mostly as a "we have to post it but dont really care about it"

One example which means nothing overall is for a small regional Irish company with an ad went from NTR 150tt posting to TR 1000tt and 200 on machine in the span of two weeks.....which means they got loads of CVs for the first, dumped all and reposted when notice that the "shortage" is only real for experienced pilots


Anyway, to avoid derailing this thread, ill go back to my corner lurking
Most of the jobs are for sure Type Rated. There might be some non TR jobs but we'd have to see the Terms and Conditions.
It's true, there is 1 or maybe 2 airlines that have a good salary and roster.
However, all that glitters is not gold. That airline has had the position open for a while, and even if you apply, they might call you, but maybe in 3, 6 or 9 months. Then call you for an interview, make you wait for the sim and then you'd be in a pilot pool.

That means that, although there is a captain shortage, there is not a FO or brand new cadets shortage. Therefore they have no need to improve salaries, as there are tons of cadets willing to pay +30k€ on top of the 60k-120k€ that's already been paid. Supply and Demand, as they say.
And we can heavily discuss or disagree with the 1500h rule, but that surely has given a heavy leverage to Americans pilot.



Garcia37 is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2023, 23:39
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South East
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Garcia37
Most of the jobs are for sure Type Rated. There might be some non TR jobs but we'd have to see the Terms and Conditions.
It's true, there is 1 or maybe 2 airlines that have a good salary and roster.
However, all that glitters is not gold. That airline has had the position open for a while, and even if you apply, they might call you, but maybe in 3, 6 or 9 months. Then call you for an interview, make you wait for the sim and then you'd be in a pilot pool.

That means that, although there is a captain shortage, there is not a FO or brand new cadets shortage. Therefore they have no need to improve salaries, as there are tons of cadets willing to pay +30k€ on top of the 60k-120k€ that's already been paid. Supply and Demand, as they say.
And we can heavily discuss or disagree with the 1500h rule, but that surely has given a heavy leverage to Americans pilot.
VS just upped their SO and FO pay to try to stem the tide of leavers. No rise for CPTs.
HidekiTojo is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2023, 23:53
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: Spain
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by HidekiTojo
VS just upped their SO and FO pay to try to stem the tide of leavers. No rise for CPTs.
Doesn't change what I said, at all. One specific airline improving their conditions doesn't mean that there isn't a surplus of SO and FOs.
I'll give you an example. Vueling put an offer some weeks ago. It was for non Type Rated FOs, and they required 150-200h. What ended up happening? They were overfilled with TR experienced guys and they mostly chose them instead. Also, Air Europa Express, as far as I know got over 500CV in a week for 15 spots, and I've heard they pay 2-2,5k€ even for maximum hours.

One given example or particular situation doesn't change how things really are. The other user is right, try to dive deep into the job offers, and two weeks later, see how they evolve.
Garcia37 is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2023, 01:33
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: Hand to Mouth
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by HidekiTojo
VS just upped their SO and FO pay to try to stem the tide of leavers. No rise for CPTs.

Their offer was risible to start with, so 'upping it' to go and work for the worst gig in the UK at the moment isn't exactly tempting.

Despite all the comments above, the single reason that the US airlines have better pay is the strength of the unions there.

Like it or not, balpa et al will never ever have the strength to achieve anything like the US unions achieve. So you're stuck with whatever crap the UK airlines wish to heap upon you....
Birdbirdbirdstheword is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2023, 08:19
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: EU
Posts: 109
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Hitchiker
Menekse…
12000 k is the average gross salary of a pic in Europe,if you think that they are paying you good money in the sandpit,where I have been,then you should revise your thoughts and ask for salary increase…
Are you spending your nights flying I guess?And from your thoughts I can see that you are still a young gun …let’s talk about it in few years from now after many nights lost …
Golden age in Middle East is over since long time,that’s why they can no longer attract westerners.
They can mostly only get single guys,single child families and people coming from places where just walking on the street could be a threat.
A family there to be able to save money would struggle like they would in EU,then I would rather do it in my home country
just my 2 cents
It's 12k in my pocket plus per diems. I don't like the place too but 12k is 12k
menekse is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2023, 09:22
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Earth
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by menekse
It's 12k in my pocket plus per diems. I don't like the place too but 12k is 12k
What is your long term goal though?

I crunched the numbers to death before making my decision. Long term it would be a risk. 30 years in the ME? Even with command salary and everything it’s not worth it. Or end up doing less time and back to a LCC in LHS. No thanks.
At least where I am I can go LH stay SH,part time options, live pretty much where ever I want as long as I can get to work. Honestly the amount I am clearing each month is more than I was expecting. Earliest check in is 5am. Latest landing SH is 23.30 back at base. No night flying.
I have so much more energy than I did before and overtime is there if I want it.
AIMINGHIGH123 is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2023, 10:11
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: EU
Posts: 109
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123
What is your long term goal though?

I crunched the numbers to death before making my decision. Long term it would be a risk. 30 years in the ME? Even with command salary and everything it’s not worth it. Or end up doing less time and back to a LCC in LHS. No thanks.
At least where I am I can go LH stay SH,part time options, live pretty much where ever I want as long as I can get to work. Honestly the amount I am clearing each month is more than I was expecting. Earliest check in is 5am. Latest landing SH is 23.30 back at base. No night flying.
I have so much more energy than I did before and overtime is there if I want it.
I have already passed the assessment of a nice EU company, for now they will proceed with the TR guys, for the rest like me, they will start training later for 2024 summer. Money will be less but I have already bought my own house and looking to buy another one to put on short staying platforms
menekse is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2023, 10:58
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Location: London
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123
What is your long term goal though?

I crunched the numbers to death before making my decision. Long term it would be a risk. 30 years in the ME? Even with command salary and everything it’s not worth it. Or end up doing less time and back to a LCC in LHS. No thanks.
At least where I am I can go LH stay SH,part time options, live pretty much where ever I want as long as I can get to work. Honestly the amount I am clearing each month is more than I was expecting. Earliest check in is 5am. Latest landing SH is 23.30 back at base. No night flying.
I have so much more energy than I did before and overtime is there if I want it.
Yes sounds like BA works for you , that’s fantastic! BA didn’t work for me . This chap wants the ME , I want Jet2 my mate wants Easy.

people have different things they want in life so let them be
Basicsteve is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2023, 11:23
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: EU
Posts: 109
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Basicsteve
Yes sounds like BA works for you , that’s fantastic! BA didn’t work for me . This chap wants the ME , I want Jet2 my mate wants Easy.

people have different things they want in life so let them be
Who told that wants ME?
EU pilot jobs are dominated by low salaries and in some cases nepotism which also induces low salaries. You keep your mouth shut if you were favored. That led me to ME and now I don't care about the inflation or whatever.I was following another thread where pilots discussing the grocery prices or if it fine to commute to the airport on a public bus! Now I had my chance with a nice EU company I am coming back, but not many ''nice'' companies left in EU. And that is what the thread is about and not personal preferences
menekse is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2023, 16:32
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The USA being heavily unionized in aviation has helped at top tier airlines, but the regional feeders have not benefited by unionization like their big iron colleges. Entry level airline jobs in the USA had, until COVID induced convulsions, kept pilot pay quite low for the entry level aviator. The top pay for CAPT's was only about double entry pay and still below what a 2nd or 3rd year pilot would make at a legacy US air carrier. Poor pay and conditions at regional airlines along with bad T&C's plus a lot of bad press over several years had its affect on dissuading younger potential avatars from considering the career. Bad terms and pay had the affect of lowering numbers. The airlines had a problem in attracting and keeping new hires, but felt comfortable with how their T&C's were not impacting attrition hier up the seniority latter. So outside their contracts, they offered hiring bonuses to persuade pilots to join even though post 1st year rates remained poor. The unions counldn't influence the process, as it was terms to induce hiring, not contacted pay. It worked until it didn't. With major airlines poaching heavily, regionals couldn't keep enough staff in the CAPT's seat to man the flights and no amount of (reasonable money) was going to keep anyone onboard any longer then they had to. The dilemma has created a situation where these carrier has to basically double pay to keep or attract staff. The pilot shortage that many hoped for, most believe would never happen, and airlines begrudging are dealing with (at least the bottom feeders deluded themselves ,they could avoid or manage) has boosted both pay and interest in airline flying beyond anyones recent dreams.

Fear not, when supply and demand swings back in favor of employers, the affect on pay and terms will be fast and harsh. Unions will have no effect on keeping recent gains, just as improvements in pay have has no effect in keeping pilots from jumping to better pay and prestige airlines when they get the offers. It just the way it is.

Last edited by night mission; 30th Nov 2023 at 20:43. Reason: adjusts for grammar
night mission is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2023, 19:27
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: London
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
There is an interesting debate raging in another place regarding the efficacy or otherwise of industrial action, particularly in the UK. Some people seem to believe it is merely a case of willpower. If we had the guts to take more industrial action - specifically in the UK - then we would see better results.

I find this unpersuasive personally. If I was a shareholder in any large company, the sort of wholesale shift in industrial landscape which would be caused by a capitulation to strike action, threatened or otherwise, would be detrimental to my long term interests. It would undermine every pay negotiation going forwards and potentially result in far greater disruption in the future (witness the railways). This, I personally believe, is why it is unlikely that industrial action would cause a meaningful closure in the pay disparity.

People have correctly identified that what has caused the upward pressure on pay in the US is recruitment & retention. These issues are not playing big in the UK as of yet, the chief reason being unlimited access to lour hour cadets.

The other thing to consider in all of this is the wider economic differences between the UK and the US. The tax regime, economic growth etc. All industries and professions in the UK especially have seen real terms stagnation or decline in their purchasing power over the last 20 years, particularly since the financial crisis. We are hardly alone in this respect.

Northern Monkey is online now  
Old 30th Nov 2023, 23:34
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 3,358
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes on 11 Posts
Originally Posted by Northern Monkey
People have correctly identified that what has caused the upward pressure on pay in the US is recruitment & retention. These issues are not playing big in the UK as of yet, the chief reason being unlimited access to lour hour cadets.
If the EU were to up the required post-licensing hours for aspiring airline F/Os, would the industry/aviation infrastructure over there be able to provide some mechanism to get these low-hour pilots a sizeable increase in hours to satisfy increased hour requirements ?
bafanguy is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 03:43
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: US via Oz, Honkers & Blighty.
Posts: 362
Received 9 Likes on 6 Posts
I’ve spent 20 something years in US aviation and the current pilot shortage is down to a variety of things…..

Huge amount of retirements, that were delayed by upping the retirement age from 60-65.
1500 hour rule and the costs to get into the right seat of an RJ put a lot off the job.
The massive expansion of Delta and more so United.
There are other reasons but you get the idea.

United currently have 16500 pilots and want 28000 by the end of the decade. So they are essentially in a bidding war with Delta and to a lesser extent American.

We shall see how that pans out.


Last edited by Kenny; 1st Dec 2023 at 03:53.
Kenny is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 07:50
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: WWW
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by menekse
It's 12k in my pocket plus per diems. I don't like the place too but 12k is 12k
12K is only 12k because the tax regime is low, your company is not paying you a lot, it only feels like a lot compared to a salary in Europe. You have some spending money if you are single and with a family live a relatively ok life. It’s not big bucks, I used to earn a similar amount. Compared to people scraping by paycheck to paycheck it’s a lot I take that but don’t kid yourself you are earning a lot.

I clear about £6300 after tax, it’s enough for a small apartment, living an ok life and some savings as a single person. No living the good life or expensive holidays.

roll_over is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 07:57
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever I lay my hat
Posts: 3,929
Received 28 Likes on 12 Posts
Originally Posted by roll_over
I clear about £6300 after tax, it’s enough for a small apartment, living an ok life and some savings as a single person. No living the good life or expensive holidays.
Reality check: You take home £4000 more than the AVERAGE person in the UK. You can have as many expensive holidays as you like and a Lamborghini parked outside your small flat.
rudestuff is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 08:28
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 55
Posts: 490
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Is a pilot an "average" profession?
Soon, probably😂
Sam Ting Wong is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 09:00
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: London
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts


This graphic always shocks me but it’s perhaps worth a reminder considering the post above.
Northern Monkey is online now  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 10:19
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: FLSomething
Posts: 395
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong
Is a pilot an "average" profession?
Soon, probably😂
Last time I checked the price of milk for a pilot is the same as it is for an average person.

If you’re taking home £6300 a month, single, in just a flat, and not saving/investing at least £4000 a month then there’s something horribly wrong.
VariablePitchP is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.