Are we ever going to see US style pay. If not, why not?
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Are we ever going to see US style pay. If not, why not?
I have never witnessed so much hiring in the winter in my 20 year career. Roadshows, ads, choices galore. The pilot shortage, even if you think it's for experienced pilots only (which I personally think is not the case) and as short as it may last, has finally arrived. However, European airlines just do not seem to be increasing pay in the manner that would be expected in a typical Low Supply vs. High Demand scenario. In the US, salaries in some cases doubled over a period of 3 months. I want to use this thread to understand why the European market isn't reacting to a lack of supply like the US market did.
Thanks
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I don't think we will ever see those figures in our payslip. Just look at the average annual insurance rate in the US and compare it to what we pay for our health care system in our respective countries. It's a different system altogether.
I am no economics expert.
Maybe the 1500 hour rule is also a factor. As a European I was against it when I was a low hour cadet, now that I have 3000 hours I would welcome it if that guaranteed an increase in our T&C's. Yes, I am selfish. And maybe here lies the problem; airlines can take in cadets. And after all, how can you reach 1500 hours in Europe? Instructing? Not many schools pay their instructors a liveable salary.
I am no economics expert.
Maybe the 1500 hour rule is also a factor. As a European I was against it when I was a low hour cadet, now that I have 3000 hours I would welcome it if that guaranteed an increase in our T&C's. Yes, I am selfish. And maybe here lies the problem; airlines can take in cadets. And after all, how can you reach 1500 hours in Europe? Instructing? Not many schools pay their instructors a liveable salary.
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Well a couple of points that often get overlooked.
The USD is very strong right now. The euro hasn’t been around very long.
Compared to the pound in the last 50 years the pound has halved in value to the USD. Mid 80s yes pound hit a low against the dollar then it strengthened again. I remember when I went to NYC around 2007 it was $2 to £1. $500k salary “only” £250k here back then. BA top scales around that now.
Hard to compare like for like. Pint of beer in NYC now is around $14. London around £7 in a pub.
And yeah health care in US can wipe out $100k. Even with insurance it often doesn’t cover the full lot.
Another point I believe is a bigger influence is size and infrastructure.
Rail network is non existent. When I looked at going from SFO to LA. It’s around a 6hr drive. Train was double that or fly for $30 in 1 hour and they are every 30 mins. No brainer.
Yes airlines compete against each other but that’s in.
Certainly in France I have taken the train over long distances and not much difference in time compared to flying once you factor in airport faffing.
The USD is very strong right now. The euro hasn’t been around very long.
Compared to the pound in the last 50 years the pound has halved in value to the USD. Mid 80s yes pound hit a low against the dollar then it strengthened again. I remember when I went to NYC around 2007 it was $2 to £1. $500k salary “only” £250k here back then. BA top scales around that now.
Hard to compare like for like. Pint of beer in NYC now is around $14. London around £7 in a pub.
And yeah health care in US can wipe out $100k. Even with insurance it often doesn’t cover the full lot.
Another point I believe is a bigger influence is size and infrastructure.
Rail network is non existent. When I looked at going from SFO to LA. It’s around a 6hr drive. Train was double that or fly for $30 in 1 hour and they are every 30 mins. No brainer.
Yes airlines compete against each other but that’s in.
Certainly in France I have taken the train over long distances and not much difference in time compared to flying once you factor in airport faffing.
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I don’t think cost of living really makes much of a difference, sure the US is more expensive but if you are making double or triple the pay I don’t think it even factors. Surely if you work for a major carrier you get healthcare provided aswell? My friends who joined Atlas, they show me their rosters and it sure is a different world.
Americans are much more unionised, the country is far richer and the yanks seem much more open in discussing their pay. Just go the their version of pprune and you have pages and pages of people posting their yearly numbers, we are far more cagey. Europe has so many countries competing it’s just a race to the bottom.
Americans are much more unionised, the country is far richer and the yanks seem much more open in discussing their pay. Just go the their version of pprune and you have pages and pages of people posting their yearly numbers, we are far more cagey. Europe has so many countries competing it’s just a race to the bottom.
Well yes, but
It depends on what you have happen to you. Get seriously injured in any accident and the NHS will pick up the pieces, very few private sector hospitals will want to know. They are often good at elective surgery, where you don't need to be operated on at midnight on a Sunday, which the NHS has done for my next door neighbour.
And private sector hospitals work on the basis of 'in, cut, out'. My sister in law had private surgery for cancer of the ovaries, but as soon as complications arose, she was dumped into an NHS hospital.
For teeth and specs you do have to go private. And for important but not time critical operations like hips and knees, going private lets you jump the queue.
And if you lose your job for any reason, your NHS cover does not stop.
And private sector hospitals work on the basis of 'in, cut, out'. My sister in law had private surgery for cancer of the ovaries, but as soon as complications arose, she was dumped into an NHS hospital.
For teeth and specs you do have to go private. And for important but not time critical operations like hips and knees, going private lets you jump the queue.
And if you lose your job for any reason, your NHS cover does not stop.
"the yanks seem much more open in discussing their pay. "
yes - it's a way of keeping the score - whereas in Europe everyone is very cagey about discussing their earnings..........
yes - it's a way of keeping the score - whereas in Europe everyone is very cagey about discussing their earnings..........
Higher entry requirements, higher salary
Low entry requirements, fly for food
That's how the market works in any profession
Plenty of instagram pilots who had the training payed by mom, are ready to accept any T&C and even do anything to get the jet job, as long as they can upload photos from a jet cockpit, mom will continue the financial support
I believe that the airlines have temporary gains by these useful idiots, just by luck accidents haven't occurred yet which will bust these airlines and are too many nowadays.
I opened a thread about nepotism in pilot selection where I clashed with posters who were trying to defend a specific airline that was hiring pilots below their published entry requirements. For 2023 only, this airline had two near crash incidents plus a numerous of less dangerous pilot induced incidents like runway excursions or hard landings. For another incident in 2021, the local CAA in the incident report blamed the company's pilot selection
Incident: Baltic BCS3 at Palanga on Jul 1st 2023, high rate of descent below minimum safe height, approach continued
By Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Nov 24th 2023 19:00Z, last updated Friday, Nov 24th 2023 19:00Z
An Air Baltic Bombardier C-Series CS-300, registration YL-CSA performing flight BT-375 from Riga (Latvia) to Palanga (Lithuania), was on approach to Palanga's runway 19 about to perform an ILS approach. About 11.5nm before the runway at 2000 feet the crew activated the APP autopilot mode, the descent rate increased to 2950 feet per minute below 1600 feet. The crew disconnected the autopilot at 1465 feet AGL (according to RADALT), the rate of descent decreased to 500 fpm before increasing again below 1200 feet AGL. 9nm before the runway threshold, while extending the landing gear, the aircraft descended below 1000 feet AGL at 133 KIAS, at 860 feet AGL the gear was completely extended. 8nm before the runway threshold, at 216 KIAS, flaps 1 were selected, the descent rate stabilized at 700 fpm for about 25 seconds followed by a climb of about 1500 fpm up to 1300 feet, which the aircraft maintained for about 40 seconds. At 5nm before the runway threshold the aircraft began to descend again still being more than 2 dots below the glidepath. The aircraft descended through 1000 feet AGL again at 900 fpm sink rate and 2.1 dots below the glideslope at 135 KIAS. A TAWS warning sounded, the aircraft levelled off at about 880 feet, the trajectory was corrected at 2.5nm before the runway threshold and the aircraft continued for a safe landing in the runway's touch down zone.
According to information The Aviation Herald received the crew was aware of possibly false localizer signals at Palanga according to NOTAMs, however, did not discuss this possibility during their approach briefing. When the crew activated the APP mode, the aircraft captured a false localizer signal immediately followed by capturing a false glideslope signal sending the aircraft into a steep dive. The crew disconnected the autopilot at about 3000 fpm sinkrate and initiated recovery, the aircraft reached a minimum height of 800 feet and 2nm offset from the extended runway centerline about 9nm before the runway threshold. Due to loss of situational awareness the crew did not initiate a go around but continued the approach. Due to terrain there are constraints to the approach procedure designs.
April 19 2023
An Air Baltic Bombardier C-Series CS-300 on behalf of Swiss International Airlines, registration YL-ABM performing flight LX-780 from Zurich (Switzerland) to Brussels (Belgium), was cleared for a VOR Approach to runway 07L when the crew initiated the final descent before the final approach fix. Descending through about 800 feet MSL about 6.5nm before the runway threshold the crew noticed the error and initiated a missed approach, climbed back to 4000 feet MSL, positioned for another approach to runway 07L and landed without further incident about 12 minutes later.
Belgium's Air Accident Investigation Unit have opened an investigation into the occurrence adding that the occurrence happened in VMC.
that's an incident report from a 2021 runway excursion
The investigation has analysed the all available (provided) information about the training process of the pilot involved in the serious incident and suggests that there are potential gaps in the company pilots’ selection
And of course plenty of videos like this one from Europe's favorite airline
Low entry requirements, fly for food
That's how the market works in any profession
Plenty of instagram pilots who had the training payed by mom, are ready to accept any T&C and even do anything to get the jet job, as long as they can upload photos from a jet cockpit, mom will continue the financial support
I believe that the airlines have temporary gains by these useful idiots, just by luck accidents haven't occurred yet which will bust these airlines and are too many nowadays.
I opened a thread about nepotism in pilot selection where I clashed with posters who were trying to defend a specific airline that was hiring pilots below their published entry requirements. For 2023 only, this airline had two near crash incidents plus a numerous of less dangerous pilot induced incidents like runway excursions or hard landings. For another incident in 2021, the local CAA in the incident report blamed the company's pilot selection
Incident: Baltic BCS3 at Palanga on Jul 1st 2023, high rate of descent below minimum safe height, approach continued
By Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Nov 24th 2023 19:00Z, last updated Friday, Nov 24th 2023 19:00Z
An Air Baltic Bombardier C-Series CS-300, registration YL-CSA performing flight BT-375 from Riga (Latvia) to Palanga (Lithuania), was on approach to Palanga's runway 19 about to perform an ILS approach. About 11.5nm before the runway at 2000 feet the crew activated the APP autopilot mode, the descent rate increased to 2950 feet per minute below 1600 feet. The crew disconnected the autopilot at 1465 feet AGL (according to RADALT), the rate of descent decreased to 500 fpm before increasing again below 1200 feet AGL. 9nm before the runway threshold, while extending the landing gear, the aircraft descended below 1000 feet AGL at 133 KIAS, at 860 feet AGL the gear was completely extended. 8nm before the runway threshold, at 216 KIAS, flaps 1 were selected, the descent rate stabilized at 700 fpm for about 25 seconds followed by a climb of about 1500 fpm up to 1300 feet, which the aircraft maintained for about 40 seconds. At 5nm before the runway threshold the aircraft began to descend again still being more than 2 dots below the glidepath. The aircraft descended through 1000 feet AGL again at 900 fpm sink rate and 2.1 dots below the glideslope at 135 KIAS. A TAWS warning sounded, the aircraft levelled off at about 880 feet, the trajectory was corrected at 2.5nm before the runway threshold and the aircraft continued for a safe landing in the runway's touch down zone.
According to information The Aviation Herald received the crew was aware of possibly false localizer signals at Palanga according to NOTAMs, however, did not discuss this possibility during their approach briefing. When the crew activated the APP mode, the aircraft captured a false localizer signal immediately followed by capturing a false glideslope signal sending the aircraft into a steep dive. The crew disconnected the autopilot at about 3000 fpm sinkrate and initiated recovery, the aircraft reached a minimum height of 800 feet and 2nm offset from the extended runway centerline about 9nm before the runway threshold. Due to loss of situational awareness the crew did not initiate a go around but continued the approach. Due to terrain there are constraints to the approach procedure designs.
April 19 2023
An Air Baltic Bombardier C-Series CS-300 on behalf of Swiss International Airlines, registration YL-ABM performing flight LX-780 from Zurich (Switzerland) to Brussels (Belgium), was cleared for a VOR Approach to runway 07L when the crew initiated the final descent before the final approach fix. Descending through about 800 feet MSL about 6.5nm before the runway threshold the crew noticed the error and initiated a missed approach, climbed back to 4000 feet MSL, positioned for another approach to runway 07L and landed without further incident about 12 minutes later.
Belgium's Air Accident Investigation Unit have opened an investigation into the occurrence adding that the occurrence happened in VMC.
that's an incident report from a 2021 runway excursion
The investigation has analysed the all available (provided) information about the training process of the pilot involved in the serious incident and suggests that there are potential gaps in the company pilots’ selection
And of course plenty of videos like this one from Europe's favorite airline
I don’t think cost of living really makes much of a difference, sure the US is more expensive but if you are making double or triple the pay I don’t think it even factors. Surely if you work for a major carrier you get healthcare provided aswell? My friends who joined Atlas, they show me their rosters and it sure is a different world.
Americans are much more unionised, the country is far richer and the yanks seem much more open in discussing their pay. Just go the their version of pprune and you have pages and pages of people posting their yearly numbers, we are far more cagey. Europe has so many countries competing it’s just a race to the bottom.
Americans are much more unionised, the country is far richer and the yanks seem much more open in discussing their pay. Just go the their version of pprune and you have pages and pages of people posting their yearly numbers, we are far more cagey. Europe has so many countries competing it’s just a race to the bottom.
Got the job as type rated, with hours on type and fast jet experience
In fly for peanuts EU jobs it's enough to have a license and have bought and practice these stupid tests and buy some hours for the sim used in the assessment
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From the outside looking in, I see 3 major differences.
Firstly, our European colleagues tend to be more secretive about contracts. Not sure why this is so. It’s pretty easy to get the contract of any carrier in the US. That contract will spell out pay and work rules for all the pilots at that airline.
Secondly, all pilots work under the same contract. It doesn’t matter if you’ve been with the company for 3 months or 30 years. The same work rules, pay rates and retirement provisions apply. A rising tide lifts all boats.
Thirdly, the 1500hr ATP rule not only increased safety, but put a stop to people with 250hrs flying part 121. In Europe, I gather that 250 hrs gets you into a Boeing or Airbus. It probably doesn’t hurt to get some experience before becoming a student pilot in an A320. By the time you have 1500 hrs, you’re probably less likely to be willing to work for peanuts.
Firstly, our European colleagues tend to be more secretive about contracts. Not sure why this is so. It’s pretty easy to get the contract of any carrier in the US. That contract will spell out pay and work rules for all the pilots at that airline.
Secondly, all pilots work under the same contract. It doesn’t matter if you’ve been with the company for 3 months or 30 years. The same work rules, pay rates and retirement provisions apply. A rising tide lifts all boats.
Thirdly, the 1500hr ATP rule not only increased safety, but put a stop to people with 250hrs flying part 121. In Europe, I gather that 250 hrs gets you into a Boeing or Airbus. It probably doesn’t hurt to get some experience before becoming a student pilot in an A320. By the time you have 1500 hrs, you’re probably less likely to be willing to work for peanuts.
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North America is the only region that has a pilot shortage at present, equivalent to about 11% of supply, or 8,000 pilots, consulting firm Oliver Wyman said in July.
Europe and Asia have pilot surpluses that are expected to remain until the middle and end of the decade respectively, it said.
The pay rises being achieved by pilots outside the United States reflect the different supply situation and are often in line with the percentage gains on offer to all airline employees as the business recovers from the pandemic and inflation rises.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...es-2022-12-05/
Europe and Asia have pilot surpluses that are expected to remain until the middle and end of the decade respectively, it said.
The pay rises being achieved by pilots outside the United States reflect the different supply situation and are often in line with the percentage gains on offer to all airline employees as the business recovers from the pandemic and inflation rises.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...es-2022-12-05/
I have never witnessed so much hiring in the winter in my 20 year career. Roadshows, ads, choices galore. The pilot shortage, even if you think it's for experienced pilots only (which I personally think is not the case) and as short as it may last, has finally arrived. However, European airlines just do not seem to be increasing pay in the manner that would be expected in a typical Low Supply vs. High Demand scenario. In the US, salaries in some cases doubled over a period of 3 months. I want to use this thread to understand why the European market isn't reacting to a lack of supply like the US market did.
Thanks
Thanks
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Well a couple of points that often get overlooked.
The USD is very strong right now. The euro hasn’t been around very long.
Compared to the pound in the last 50 years the pound has halved in value to the USD. Mid 80s yes pound hit a low against the dollar then it strengthened again. I remember when I went to NYC around 2007 it was $2 to £1. $500k salary “only” £250k here back then. BA top scales around that now.
Hard to compare like for like. Pint of beer in NYC now is around $14. London around £7 in a pub.
And yeah health care in US can wipe out $100k. Even with insurance it often doesn’t cover the full lot.
Another point I believe is a bigger influence is size and infrastructure.
Rail network is non existent. When I looked at going from SFO to LA. It’s around a 6hr drive. Train was double that or fly for $30 in 1 hour and they are every 30 mins. No brainer.
Yes airlines compete against each other but that’s in.
Certainly in France I have taken the train over long distances and not much difference in time compared to flying once you factor in airport faffing.
The USD is very strong right now. The euro hasn’t been around very long.
Compared to the pound in the last 50 years the pound has halved in value to the USD. Mid 80s yes pound hit a low against the dollar then it strengthened again. I remember when I went to NYC around 2007 it was $2 to £1. $500k salary “only” £250k here back then. BA top scales around that now.
Hard to compare like for like. Pint of beer in NYC now is around $14. London around £7 in a pub.
And yeah health care in US can wipe out $100k. Even with insurance it often doesn’t cover the full lot.
Another point I believe is a bigger influence is size and infrastructure.
Rail network is non existent. When I looked at going from SFO to LA. It’s around a 6hr drive. Train was double that or fly for $30 in 1 hour and they are every 30 mins. No brainer.
Yes airlines compete against each other but that’s in.
Certainly in France I have taken the train over long distances and not much difference in time compared to flying once you factor in airport faffing.
Switzerland, Norway, Luxemburg, Paris and London, Singapore, Sydney, Tokyo, Hong Kong, all at least as expensive as the US average I would argue.
https://www.economist.com/big-mac-index
Menekse, not sure if it is helpful to stereotype newjoiners the way you do. The debate about sponsored type rating etc is decades old, but the pay diversion is a very recent phenomena. It hence doesn't appear to be the key factor.
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Menekse pretty much summed it up. EU is taken over by low cost airlines that dictate TC's. They are clever and their scheme rely on endless supply of fresh pilots and shady contractor agencies. Whenever they feel they need more pilots they prefer not to improve TCs but rather lower enty requirements and get influx of zero hour pilots bonded for TR and dumping cycle repeats itself constantly.
1500 h rule is not an option for EU. It might cause low cost model crash with bankruptcies and redundancies. Of course there could be compromisible solution but why bother if everyone is happy and system works more or less. Untill unlucky 250 h instagram cowboy cfits 3 nm before touchdown nothing will change.
1500 h rule is not an option for EU. It might cause low cost model crash with bankruptcies and redundancies. Of course there could be compromisible solution but why bother if everyone is happy and system works more or less. Untill unlucky 250 h instagram cowboy cfits 3 nm before touchdown nothing will change.
Heck, compare US and Canadian Pilot income—huge gap. For the EU/UK, compare the per capita GDP to see where the money comes from. US per capita discretionary spending dwarfs EU’s.
https://ecipe.org/publications/compa...US%20in%202021.
https://ecipe.org/publications/compa...US%20in%202021.
Guys, it's not a science or magic tricks. GDP etc are relevant to minimum wage or welfare checks, not to pilot salaries.
In some regions of the planet they want ''good'' pilots and are willing to pay for them. I have EU passport, hold an EASA license and I make 12k per month plus free accommodation and tickets home. I work in Middle East, is not that far from Europe.
If tomorrow my company opens for unexperienced pilots willing to come over here for 2k of course they will change my contract to fly for food too. For now at least they are not willing risk.
That's the market and that's what happened in the most of EU airlines
That's the same for any profession. If I have a restaurant and I want an experienced chef I will pay him accordingly. To save some money I can risk to hire someone just out of the chef school or someone who was working in McDonalds before
In some regions of the planet they want ''good'' pilots and are willing to pay for them. I have EU passport, hold an EASA license and I make 12k per month plus free accommodation and tickets home. I work in Middle East, is not that far from Europe.
If tomorrow my company opens for unexperienced pilots willing to come over here for 2k of course they will change my contract to fly for food too. For now at least they are not willing risk.
That's the market and that's what happened in the most of EU airlines
That's the same for any profession. If I have a restaurant and I want an experienced chef I will pay him accordingly. To save some money I can risk to hire someone just out of the chef school or someone who was working in McDonalds before
Unless you mean low hours but TR and not just out of the school pilots, then move on and don't answer my question
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In some regions of the planet they want ''good'' pilots and are willing to pay for them. I have EU passport, hold an EASA license and I make 12k per month plus free accommodation and tickets home.
12000 k is the average gross salary of a pic in Europe,if you think that they are paying you good money in the sandpit,where I have been,then you should revise your thoughts and ask for salary increase…
Are you spending your nights flying I guess?And from your thoughts I can see that you are still a young gun …let’s talk about it in few years from now after many nights lost …
Golden age in Middle East is over since long time,that’s why they can no longer attract westerners.
They can mostly only get single guys,single child families and people coming from places where just walking on the street could be a threat.
A family there to be able to save money would struggle like they would in EU,then I would rather do it in my home country
just my 2 cents