Bidding at British Airways
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Bidding at British Airways
Hello, I have a few questions regarding the bidding system just to understand it better as I’m slowly working up the hours to the point where I’m trying to decide whether to give BA a shot or stay at my current airline (the blue and yellow one).
Say I join the the A320 fleet as an FO then decide to become a CPT later on the same type, would I then be able to bid for a position on widebody aircraft as a CPT or would I have to return back to being an FO?
Regarding the roster, I’ve heard that basically further up the seniority you basically “create” your own roster, what does this exactly mean?
What have your experiences been using a seniority based system as opposed to an airline which doesn’t have any?
Thanks!
Say I join the the A320 fleet as an FO then decide to become a CPT later on the same type, would I then be able to bid for a position on widebody aircraft as a CPT or would I have to return back to being an FO?
Regarding the roster, I’ve heard that basically further up the seniority you basically “create” your own roster, what does this exactly mean?
What have your experiences been using a seniority based system as opposed to an airline which doesn’t have any?
Thanks!
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Eligibility for a particular aircraft or status is determined purely by seniority. It has nothing to do with current fleet or status. ie. If you are seniority number 1000, and the minimum seniority required for a command on the 787 is above 1000 the year you have requested it, you get it whether you are currently an FO on A320 of a Captain on A380. Sometimes that rule is slightly skewed by training requirements, or current fleet requirements. The minimum seniority on each fleet is determined by supply and demand for positions on each fleet each year. When a pilot does a course, they are then frozen for a period of time varying from 1 year to 8 years, depending on the course they have done. (The one year freeze applies to command on type. So you can move to a new fleet as an FO, and then one year later you are still frozen for all courses apart from a course to move from right to left on the same aircraft type).
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The create your own roster if you are very senior, is a function of the JSS bidding system.
If you are the most senior FO on a fleet, and you place an exceedingly specific bid for the work you want in a month, and the sequence of work you have asked for is legal and builds you a complete month’s work - you will get it.
If you are second highest seniority and you do the same, you will get it if the more senior pilot didn’t already take those trips for their roster. This goes on as JSS works its way down the list of bids. The further down the list you go, you can still try for your specific bid for work, but you are less likely to get it as it’s more likely more senior people will already have taken that work, so you have to bid realistically because JSS needs to build you a complete roster and if it needs to start ignoring what you asked for - it will.
The above is a slightly simplistic description of how it works, but explains the ‘create your own roster’ phrase you have heard.
Note. You can be super senior FO on a fleet, getting great rosters, then do a command on type and suddenly find yourself very junior. In this situation, your success with roster construction will plummet. The same can happen happen with an aircraft change. It purely depends on your relative seniority wherever you are.
If you are the most senior FO on a fleet, and you place an exceedingly specific bid for the work you want in a month, and the sequence of work you have asked for is legal and builds you a complete month’s work - you will get it.
If you are second highest seniority and you do the same, you will get it if the more senior pilot didn’t already take those trips for their roster. This goes on as JSS works its way down the list of bids. The further down the list you go, you can still try for your specific bid for work, but you are less likely to get it as it’s more likely more senior people will already have taken that work, so you have to bid realistically because JSS needs to build you a complete roster and if it needs to start ignoring what you asked for - it will.
The above is a slightly simplistic description of how it works, but explains the ‘create your own roster’ phrase you have heard.
Note. You can be super senior FO on a fleet, getting great rosters, then do a command on type and suddenly find yourself very junior. In this situation, your success with roster construction will plummet. The same can happen happen with an aircraft change. It purely depends on your relative seniority wherever you are.
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Also following this - GS-Alpha - thanks for the info. What is the approx seniority required for command on SH/LH? I have heard SH can be as short as 2 ys whereas LH is more likely to be > 15 ys. Say you join as LH FO, I guess you could still bid for command SH as soon as you join and then get it when the minimum seniority required "goes down" to your number? Thanks!
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Your times to command are about right yes. When you first join, I believe you still currently have a 5 year freeze. When you are frozen, you should always bid for what you want because BA can always release you if it suits them to do so. Short haul commands have in recent times gone so junior that there has been a need to release people from freezes after only a year or two yes. That does not guarantee the situation will continue though.
Your question about a quick release from long haul for a short haul command would indeed be possible if BA had the business need. I would imagine BA prefer to release short haul FOs for short haul commands because the training footprint for the command course is smaller. If they still don’t have enough volunteers, they would release long haul freezes. Pre-covid, I flew with a long haul FO who was about to do just that.
Your question about a quick release from long haul for a short haul command would indeed be possible if BA had the business need. I would imagine BA prefer to release short haul FOs for short haul commands because the training footprint for the command course is smaller. If they still don’t have enough volunteers, they would release long haul freezes. Pre-covid, I flew with a long haul FO who was about to do just that.
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thank you GS-Alpha ! Super helpful, it's a completely different philosophy, as far as seniority and career progression is concerned. Where I "come" from Command is people's top priority followed by take-home pay. With the system you have described, it's more of a long term investment, which I think is still the way to go to try and make this career a tad more sustainable.
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Thanks for the responses I’m still trying to rap my head around the seniority system so bear with me.
My understanding is as soon as you join you get assigned a number which is obviously your seniority.
This number changes as time passes because you have worked in the company for a specific period. Once your freeze is over (unless the company decide to unfreeze you earlier) and if you match the required “number” you can then advance onto a new aircraft type or LHS. Once you make this move, your seniority “resets” to the bottom and you get frozen again for a period between 1 to 8 years (1 for command) and now need to just keep waiting until the number reaches whatever it is you want to do next (rinse and repeat).
Is this somewhat correct?
My understanding is as soon as you join you get assigned a number which is obviously your seniority.
This number changes as time passes because you have worked in the company for a specific period. Once your freeze is over (unless the company decide to unfreeze you earlier) and if you match the required “number” you can then advance onto a new aircraft type or LHS. Once you make this move, your seniority “resets” to the bottom and you get frozen again for a period between 1 to 8 years (1 for command) and now need to just keep waiting until the number reaches whatever it is you want to do next (rinse and repeat).
Is this somewhat correct?
Thanks for the responses I’m still trying to rap my head around the seniority system so bear with me.
My understanding is as soon as you join you get assigned a number which is obviously your seniority.
This number changes as time passes because you have worked in the company for a specific period. Once your freeze is over (unless the company decide to unfreeze you earlier) and if you match the required “number” you can then advance onto a new aircraft type or LHS. Once you make this move, your seniority “resets” to the bottom and you get frozen again for a period between 1 to 8 years (1 for command) and now need to just keep waiting until the number reaches whatever it is you want to do next (rinse and repeat).
Is this somewhat correct?
My understanding is as soon as you join you get assigned a number which is obviously your seniority.
This number changes as time passes because you have worked in the company for a specific period. Once your freeze is over (unless the company decide to unfreeze you earlier) and if you match the required “number” you can then advance onto a new aircraft type or LHS. Once you make this move, your seniority “resets” to the bottom and you get frozen again for a period between 1 to 8 years (1 for command) and now need to just keep waiting until the number reaches whatever it is you want to do next (rinse and repeat).
Is this somewhat correct?
Every year (in theory) BA will re run the MSL numbers as part of the annual Fleet change bid (commonly known as PRIAM). Let's say 500 people above you have left, got the sack etc. Your new seniority number would be 4001.
I think you understand the above, but that's the foundation we need for the next bit.
If you joined onto a fleet that's recruiting, lets say as an FO on A320, as time passes more people will join with higher seniority numbers than you. Relative to you, your position on the FO A320 list, you'll move up. Your actual seniority number won't change but your relative seniority (vs other, newer, pilots) will.
Now let's say you're Seniority number is high enough to get a command on the A320, and you move across successfully. To use our example, BA say anyone who bid with Seniority 4001 or greater is eligible for an A320 command, and they've agreed to waive any freeze you have. Youll keep your seniority number (4001) but as you are the most junior (least time in the conpany) person to do it, youll be at the bottom of the relative seniority for CA A320. As time goes by and more Captain's join the fleet below you, your relative seniority would increase - but your seniority number would still be determined by how many people joined after you, regardless of what fleet they joined onto.
Seniority number is mainly used for fleet moves, relative seniority is what's important for lifestyle as that determines what roster you can get etc.
You don't have to move fleets or seats as soon as you can (the saying is "you only have to be junior once"). You can always wait until your relative seniority is such that you have an acceptable lifestyle on your chosen fleet and then bid for it, then when you cone across youd slot in above all those who joined after you, and have more relative seniority.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by thetimesreader84; 23rd Oct 2023 at 08:29.
It's entirely personal and is a huge decision to make, but only you can make it. If you do join, join with your eyes wide open that you will be junior for an exceptionally long time in any seat other than the RHS A320. Good luck!
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Just to add to this that this is an entirely subjective, often incorrect but highly subscribed to point of view. Depending on your age, and life circumstance currently, joining BA could be a great move, or a terrible one. If you're young and have few ties at the moment, you'll see the benefits of being senior towards the end of your career. If you're much older and have important commitments at home (family, etc) then it may not work for you as you may never reach a lofty position on the MSL or see the benefits of roster bidding seniority.
It's entirely personal and is a huge decision to make, but only you can make it. If you do join, join with your eyes wide open that you will be junior for an exceptionally long time in any seat other than the RHS A320. Good luck!
It's entirely personal and is a huge decision to make, but only you can make it. If you do join, join with your eyes wide open that you will be junior for an exceptionally long time in any seat other than the RHS A320. Good luck!
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Rough numbers - somebody will be here to correct me but you’ll get the idea:
Join as a SH FO. After 5 years, you will probably be reasonably senior on the SH FO list, and so achieve a pretty good degree of roster control in terms of getting the days off and types of trips which you like. After 7-8 years, you would probably have very good control. After 10 years, you’d be more or less creating the exact roster you like. This is because gradually those F/Os senior to you move on to other fleets or seats, and everybody joining the fleet is junior to you. Standard disclaimer is that the peaks and troughs mean that this move up the list may take the form of periods of stagnation of a couple of years, followed by rapid movement during periods of high recruitment.
S/H command theoretically possible after a couple of years at the moment, however for the next couple of years it could stay that way or be more like 5-7 years or even more. Impossible to predict. However, you bid for what you want and if your number comes up then great. That said, it is unlikely you will feel senior enough to have good roster control until maybe 20 years or even more, and therefore whilst the prospect of an early command may seem appealing, it will always come with less than ideal rosters for a long period of time.
Moves to L/H FO positions possible/likely after initial engagement freeze of 5 years, although in periods of stagnation there may be slightly longer waits - luck of the draw. However the same principle applies - the earlier you move the longer you will be junior for on your L/H fleet. Lots of people remain as ‘senior’ L/H FOs because after 15-20 years they gain lots of control over their lives. Movement up the list therefore is pretty slow.
L/H captains maybe 20 years minimum to be more or less the most junior on the fleet, and remain junior for a number of years. There’s a lot of captains who joined in their early 20s maybe thirty years ago, so they have thirty years of seniority and could theoretically stay for another decade. So really, to be a L/H captain with decent roster control, you will need to have served 30 years plus.
So to answer your question…yes, you could maybe join at 30 and remain as a 320 FO, giving you good roster control by the time you’re in your late 30s. You could hang around there enjoying life until mid forties, at which point a move to L/H FO would give a reasonable degree of control. By the time you’re in your mid to late 50s, you might start considering a long haul command and in your last five years (if you stay to 65) you would have fairly decent rosters. This is why you will hear people say that ‘you only need to be junior once’.
Moving through fleets or seats at the earliest opportunity will mean that you will spend virtually all of your career as a junior bidder, until your last few years when you are finally senior on any fleet you choose.
Lots of health warnings on all of the above…situations may change a lot in the course of the time scales being discussed, and so that’s just a bit of a ‘snapshot’ as to how things stand now.
Caveat emptor!
Join as a SH FO. After 5 years, you will probably be reasonably senior on the SH FO list, and so achieve a pretty good degree of roster control in terms of getting the days off and types of trips which you like. After 7-8 years, you would probably have very good control. After 10 years, you’d be more or less creating the exact roster you like. This is because gradually those F/Os senior to you move on to other fleets or seats, and everybody joining the fleet is junior to you. Standard disclaimer is that the peaks and troughs mean that this move up the list may take the form of periods of stagnation of a couple of years, followed by rapid movement during periods of high recruitment.
S/H command theoretically possible after a couple of years at the moment, however for the next couple of years it could stay that way or be more like 5-7 years or even more. Impossible to predict. However, you bid for what you want and if your number comes up then great. That said, it is unlikely you will feel senior enough to have good roster control until maybe 20 years or even more, and therefore whilst the prospect of an early command may seem appealing, it will always come with less than ideal rosters for a long period of time.
Moves to L/H FO positions possible/likely after initial engagement freeze of 5 years, although in periods of stagnation there may be slightly longer waits - luck of the draw. However the same principle applies - the earlier you move the longer you will be junior for on your L/H fleet. Lots of people remain as ‘senior’ L/H FOs because after 15-20 years they gain lots of control over their lives. Movement up the list therefore is pretty slow.
L/H captains maybe 20 years minimum to be more or less the most junior on the fleet, and remain junior for a number of years. There’s a lot of captains who joined in their early 20s maybe thirty years ago, so they have thirty years of seniority and could theoretically stay for another decade. So really, to be a L/H captain with decent roster control, you will need to have served 30 years plus.
So to answer your question…yes, you could maybe join at 30 and remain as a 320 FO, giving you good roster control by the time you’re in your late 30s. You could hang around there enjoying life until mid forties, at which point a move to L/H FO would give a reasonable degree of control. By the time you’re in your mid to late 50s, you might start considering a long haul command and in your last five years (if you stay to 65) you would have fairly decent rosters. This is why you will hear people say that ‘you only need to be junior once’.
Moving through fleets or seats at the earliest opportunity will mean that you will spend virtually all of your career as a junior bidder, until your last few years when you are finally senior on any fleet you choose.
Lots of health warnings on all of the above…situations may change a lot in the course of the time scales being discussed, and so that’s just a bit of a ‘snapshot’ as to how things stand now.
Caveat emptor!
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I would add into that the LH fleet you moved to if you wish makes a difference, subject to change.
Mates on the triple at the bottom are working super hard.
Mates on A350 at the bottom are having an easier time at the moment.
As above though. Subject to change.
Mates on the triple at the bottom are working super hard.
Mates on A350 at the bottom are having an easier time at the moment.
As above though. Subject to change.
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In addition to the above, timing is everything too. It's always said that the earlier you get in, the better - get your place on the MSL. Now is a good time to join with so much recruitment ongoing. Those 320 FOs that joined at the beginning of this year are already at 70% on the fleet (i.e. 70% of 320 FOs are more senior than them, 30% are more junior) as there are so many coming in behind them, and the more senior pilots are heading off to LH or Command. Of course the usual caveat that it's aviation and recruitment could stop tomorrow, leaving you at the bottom for a few years.
Roster satisfaction also depends on what you're looking for. I think in the RHS of the 320 there's enough variety in lifestyles that it's fairly easy to get what you want. Some want day trips as they have kids to be home for, some want long trips as they commute, or want to see the world. Don't expect every weekend off, but if you're flexible it can definitely work for you.
Roster satisfaction also depends on what you're looking for. I think in the RHS of the 320 there's enough variety in lifestyles that it's fairly easy to get what you want. Some want day trips as they have kids to be home for, some want long trips as they commute, or want to see the world. Don't expect every weekend off, but if you're flexible it can definitely work for you.
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I’d add that compared to my previous airline, the process of swapping trips you don’t like / didn’t express a preference for is pretty good - it’s mostly done online, and there’s a decent app which provides easy access to what’s available, and what people are looking to swap. As others have already said, there’s enough people looking for different things to make the swap system work pretty well, at least on the 320 - can’t speak about any other fleets.
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Long-haul suitability will be assessed during simulator assessment. Please note, we have a limited number of long-haul positions available and therefore A320 remains our primary recruiting fleet.
