Working Life After Flying
Join Date: Dec 2008
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LoL, I think you must have been hitting the homebrew too hard. You just repeated my comment using different words! Sadly I know several of the people let go personally, there is no shame or secret to the plight they find themselves in now they are back home. Coincidentally, one of them is seriously considering retraining in a building trade to tide him over.
I won't bother growing a pair thanks, you clearly have enough testosterone for both of us.
I won't bother growing a pair thanks, you clearly have enough testosterone for both of us.
short flights long nights
As I've previously suggested, pilot salaries were ripe for a "refresh" and this situation has provided airline management with the ideal excuse to take the axe to Ts&Cs. From an accountant's point of view, it is easy to see why £100k+ salaries are unjustifiable for a role which has an extremely low (academic) bar to entry, has massive oversupply and is highly aspirational. The "new normal" will be captains on train driver salaries (without any of the associated benefits) and first officers either paying to be there or on minimum wage, zero hours contracts. It's no good stomping our feet and pretending that it isn't the case. The salaries we enjoyed three months ago will be comfortably the highest the vast majority of us will ever earn in our careers.
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Yorkshire
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There is no such thing as a 'menial job' to the person who needs that job and is prepared to roll up his/her sleeves to get on and do it. If anyone does 'decry' a tradesman's job, I just hope that they think very carefully about that when they need that tradesman to do some important work for them.
If O'Leary did say that airline pilots are "glorified taxi drivers", he was wrong. bizjet pilots are more like "glorified taxi drivers"; airline pilots are more like "glorified bus/train drivers". (My daughter calls me a "glorified postie", which I find amusing, not 'degrading'!)
An interesting comparison: I know someone who was an accountant and is now an electrician and is doing very well out of it. Quite some time ago he moved countries and to 'convert' qualifications from his old trade of electrician or later profession of accountant would have been months compared with years. Being an electrician was his first choice and that is where he is. (Would that be the accountants' equivalent of PilotLZ's advice about getting your 'second qualification' first?) Now does it take months or years to convert a pilot's qualification from one country to another? (Having done so myself, I can tell you that it is not years!) I will say again, there is no such thing as a 'menial' job to the person who needs that job and is prepared to do it, just as that it in not a 'menial' job to the person who urgently needs it done (like unblocking that drain that was blocked with too much cr*p?).
So please do not decry anyone on here asking for or giving advice to anyone wanting to put effort into to finding other ways of making ends meet when this industry, or the circumstances surrounding it, bowls one of those nasty spin balls their way.
Good luck everyone. If you put the right efforts in now with a good 'frame of mind' whatever you do, you will be able to look back in ten years time at these really extreme conditions and think "yes, I got through that". Do whatever it needs (as long as it is legal!) and don't be put off by someone 'looking down his nose' at you. You could end up a lot happier with life than they are.
If O'Leary did say that airline pilots are "glorified taxi drivers", he was wrong. bizjet pilots are more like "glorified taxi drivers"; airline pilots are more like "glorified bus/train drivers". (My daughter calls me a "glorified postie", which I find amusing, not 'degrading'!)
An interesting comparison: I know someone who was an accountant and is now an electrician and is doing very well out of it. Quite some time ago he moved countries and to 'convert' qualifications from his old trade of electrician or later profession of accountant would have been months compared with years. Being an electrician was his first choice and that is where he is. (Would that be the accountants' equivalent of PilotLZ's advice about getting your 'second qualification' first?) Now does it take months or years to convert a pilot's qualification from one country to another? (Having done so myself, I can tell you that it is not years!) I will say again, there is no such thing as a 'menial' job to the person who needs that job and is prepared to do it, just as that it in not a 'menial' job to the person who urgently needs it done (like unblocking that drain that was blocked with too much cr*p?).
So please do not decry anyone on here asking for or giving advice to anyone wanting to put effort into to finding other ways of making ends meet when this industry, or the circumstances surrounding it, bowls one of those nasty spin balls their way.
Good luck everyone. If you put the right efforts in now with a good 'frame of mind' whatever you do, you will be able to look back in ten years time at these really extreme conditions and think "yes, I got through that". Do whatever it needs (as long as it is legal!) and don't be put off by someone 'looking down his nose' at you. You could end up a lot happier with life than they are.
Well said, Noel.
@ nickler, I see you are new here. Your post #222 and some others come across as being pompous and arrogant. You are also insulting to other posters and other professions; I don't know if you intended that?
@ nickler, I see you are new here. Your post #222 and some others come across as being pompous and arrogant. You are also insulting to other posters and other professions; I don't know if you intended that?
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Can I say.. after I got out of flying ( after 36 years and 22000 hours).. I am now a train driver. I love the conditions ( that include 9 weeks annual leave).. sure the money is not the same as I earned as a 777 Captain.. but I am so much happier. No jet lag.. lovely place to work, home at night. Wish I had done it 10 years ago.
GWR have also expanded services a lot, they're recruiting for a lot of qualified drivers at the moment though it's worth keeping an eye out to see if they want to recruit trainees at any point. Nearby depots are Reading, Oxford and Paddington.
Join Date: Apr 2020
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Can I say.. after I got out of flying ( after 36 years and 22000 hours).. I am now a train driver. I love the conditions ( that include 9 weeks annual leave).. sure the money is not the same as I earned as a 777 Captain.. but I am so much happier. No jet lag.. lovely place to work, home at night. Wish I had done it 10 years ago.
nickler: you have a vastly inflated and totally unwarranted sense of your own importance.
short flights long nights
guy_incognit
No offence taken. I moved into an industry ( by sheer good luck) that is ful of history .. unions and a employer who actually looks after your welfare.
I enjoy going to work every day.,
No offence taken. I moved into an industry ( by sheer good luck) that is ful of history .. unions and a employer who actually looks after your welfare.
I enjoy going to work every day.,
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Back on the topic: There is some great advice and creative options being thrown around here by those willing to open their minds. I'm currently in offshore wind, and HSE is a huge topic. I always think a pilot with a keen understanding of CRM would make a great addition to any HSE department. Yes, would require some additional training, but much of that is available online. With a healthy attitude to picking up some hands-on jobs to build experience, one could relatively quickly develop into an HSE consultant or client rep. The guys / girls we employ in those roles make decent money, travel to interesting places and seem to have a good work/life balance.
Furthermore, I think people are generally freaked out about trying new things, but pilots especially as they have always done the same trick. Maybe at different employers, but fundamentally the same job. Many of my peers and myself had much more variety in their careers. So should get laid off, we have been trained to have an agile mindset to doing new stuff. I myself went from Aerospace Engineering into R&D, then a brief stint in Manufacturing - spent some time in operations, moved to sales, and recently jumped back into project management. Fundamentally different roles in different companies, that just came onto my path and I figured I give them a try.
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Important thing is to pay the bills , somehow.
I feel lucky that I had the experience of being a pilot, then a jet pilot, then an airline captain - I’m proud of that.
I feel sorry for those who didn’t and due this latest disaster may never get to the flightdeck, promoted or whatever, will not be able to realise their dream.
It is better to love and to have lost than never loved at all...
I feel lucky that I had the experience of being a pilot, then a jet pilot, then an airline captain - I’m proud of that.
I feel sorry for those who didn’t and due this latest disaster may never get to the flightdeck, promoted or whatever, will not be able to realise their dream.
It is better to love and to have lost than never loved at all...
Very indicative of a certain cultural system. Not top caste? An Indian perhaps?
Join Date: Jun 2004
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I have been a U.K flag carrier Captain with 9000 hours and an electrician, plumber. I can personally attest you will find far more challenges running a company, whilst earning far better money... but most importantly control yours and your families destiny.
100% retain, look at trades and other professions...decouple from the narrow mindedness
100% retain, look at trades and other professions...decouple from the narrow mindedness
Join Date: Aug 2016
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There's one more thing which is absolutely fantastic about being your own boss while waiting for your next flying job. Not having to convince anyone (often by being rather dishonest) that you won't run off the very moment a flying job is thrown your way. It's your private party, you needn't explain to anyone why you are doing more, less or no work at any given time. And this is just one perk which adds up to making your own timetable, deciding how much to work, always having something useful and profitable to do whenever there aren't any flights and so on. So, those tradesman skills will only benefit you and enhance your financial security. And, even if you are fortunate enough to never really need them for a living, doing something with your hands is a good way to take your mind off the flight deck every now and again. Not to mention that being able to maintain stuff in your own home without relying on anyone else is nice in itself and can save you quite a bit of money over the years.
Join Date: Apr 2020
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I'm not (immediately) at risk of losing my job, as a reasonably well established captain in what should be a safe base in a safe airline (all of that is of course very much subject to change).
However, I have today made the decision to actively look for another career at the earliest possible opportunity. There are a number of reasons for it. Put simply, I don't like flying and I despise the industry in general. I can't see any realistic chance of anything improving. I don't see there being any significant recruitment for pilots for the next decade or more. The fabled "pilot shortage" has never existed, but now the exact opposite of that myth is true. Pilots will be falling over themselves to feast on any meagre scraps the industry throws at them. I said earlier in the thread that captain salaries would fall to the level of train drivers, but without any of the associated benefits of working for a train company. I now think that assessment may prove somewhat optimistic.
I still have a reasonable amount of time to go before I can retire. If it were just me, or even just me and my other half, then I could possibly try to stick it out. However, I can't in good conscience take the serious risk that I'll end up unemployed just at the time when I'll be paying secondary school or university fees for my kids. I genuinely don't see how anybody embarking on a pilot career could ever take the risk of taking on a mortgage, spending money on a car, going on holiday etc. I don't see how anybody embarking on a pilot career could start a family, knowing that there's a very good chance they'll be in a position in the future where their family will end up on the street when they lose their job.
There is no other career that I can think of off hand which is so limiting in terms of transferrable skills; that requires you to be prepared to drop everything and potentially move to the other side of the world just to "stay current"; that has an all pervading narrative from management that you should think yourself bloody lucky to have a job. Anybody who has the means (financial and otherwise) to find another career would be absolutely mad not to pursue another path.
However, I have today made the decision to actively look for another career at the earliest possible opportunity. There are a number of reasons for it. Put simply, I don't like flying and I despise the industry in general. I can't see any realistic chance of anything improving. I don't see there being any significant recruitment for pilots for the next decade or more. The fabled "pilot shortage" has never existed, but now the exact opposite of that myth is true. Pilots will be falling over themselves to feast on any meagre scraps the industry throws at them. I said earlier in the thread that captain salaries would fall to the level of train drivers, but without any of the associated benefits of working for a train company. I now think that assessment may prove somewhat optimistic.
I still have a reasonable amount of time to go before I can retire. If it were just me, or even just me and my other half, then I could possibly try to stick it out. However, I can't in good conscience take the serious risk that I'll end up unemployed just at the time when I'll be paying secondary school or university fees for my kids. I genuinely don't see how anybody embarking on a pilot career could ever take the risk of taking on a mortgage, spending money on a car, going on holiday etc. I don't see how anybody embarking on a pilot career could start a family, knowing that there's a very good chance they'll be in a position in the future where their family will end up on the street when they lose their job.
There is no other career that I can think of off hand which is so limiting in terms of transferrable skills; that requires you to be prepared to drop everything and potentially move to the other side of the world just to "stay current"; that has an all pervading narrative from management that you should think yourself bloody lucky to have a job. Anybody who has the means (financial and otherwise) to find another career would be absolutely mad not to pursue another path.
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That is a very good decision to make but maybe when you see what options are out there (depending on past work experience) you may think twice before rushing out of aviation! I was made redundant several months ago but I always had a gnawing idea at the back of my mind that I should be doing some training to have something to fall back on, I had a good engineering degree but no work experience. Basically any graduate scheme will see you get at the very most 30k. Admittedly advancement may be fast with the soft skills learned in aviation to help speed things along but outside financial services the peak salary probably won't come close to even the reduced captains salary. I can also only assume that reaching that level will result in long hours and lots of work to take home. You'll get weekends off and more control over your leave etc so that may suit some.
If there is anyone out there reading this who is still employed but doesn't have and previous work experience in another field then start looking at contingency career training now, that is certainly a very good idea. After all it doesnt even take a pandemic to force unemployment, something medical could have the same outcome for an individual. Having to retrain once unemployed is not recommended! I always toyed with the idea of leaving aviation at some point, then it happened and looking at the options I realised I really really didn't know what I had till it was gone.
If there is anyone out there reading this who is still employed but doesn't have and previous work experience in another field then start looking at contingency career training now, that is certainly a very good idea. After all it doesnt even take a pandemic to force unemployment, something medical could have the same outcome for an individual. Having to retrain once unemployed is not recommended! I always toyed with the idea of leaving aviation at some point, then it happened and looking at the options I realised I really really didn't know what I had till it was gone.
Join Date: Sep 2018
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Looks like you are an Emirates A380 skipper ?
you should first hand know about redundancies and slave labour ?
or are you a local who is immune ?
Your attitude is frankly pathetic and an embarrassment to our fellow professionals
you should first hand know about redundancies and slave labour ?
or are you a local who is immune ?
Your attitude is frankly pathetic and an embarrassment to our fellow professionals
Join Date: Aug 2016
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I remain a firm advocate of the concept that you should get your backup qualification before you start flying. In an ideal world, you should also get a year or two of experience in the field. And one of the purposes this serves is that thus you will have a working knowledge of what a "real" job is like and you will have a more realistic view on the pros and cons of commercial flying. Many of those who have done nothing else other than flying have a very marginal understanding of what working life outside of the flight deck is like. And this often fills them with frustration with their "low salaries", "long hours" and "modern slavery". While, if you actually have something to compare flying to, it won't take you long to understand that, even after the COVID-19 salary reductions, it's quite well paid and, in addition, you get to work with many quality people and enjoy a decent amount of time off.
Of course, this still doesn't mean that it has to be appealing for everyone. Just as any other career. So, if you want to walk away simply because it's not your cup of tea - by all means do. But, if you think that by changing careers you will significantly improve your income and lifestyle, this might not be the case. At least not for many years from now, until you become the experienced and established professional who can expect anything close to the dreaded, "poverty-range" 70K Captain salary.
Of course, this still doesn't mean that it has to be appealing for everyone. Just as any other career. So, if you want to walk away simply because it's not your cup of tea - by all means do. But, if you think that by changing careers you will significantly improve your income and lifestyle, this might not be the case. At least not for many years from now, until you become the experienced and established professional who can expect anything close to the dreaded, "poverty-range" 70K Captain salary.
Join Date: Jan 2020
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Riskybis
Looks like You do not have much in common with Sherlock Holmes, do You ?
Anyway, yes, former 380 skipper, decided to leave end of 2019 when everything was still roses and butterflies (well more or less) to join a well established European LCC as DEC based home.
I did decide at that time that I wanted to take a few months off to re-establish my life back home after 20 years of palms and dunes and join beginning of April. All setup, all ready. Got screwed.
Guys that joined with an OCC 2 months before me got in, initially furloughed but flying now. Next job ? Who knows.
Looks like You do not have much in common with Sherlock Holmes, do You ?
Anyway, yes, former 380 skipper, decided to leave end of 2019 when everything was still roses and butterflies (well more or less) to join a well established European LCC as DEC based home.
I did decide at that time that I wanted to take a few months off to re-establish my life back home after 20 years of palms and dunes and join beginning of April. All setup, all ready. Got screwed.
Guys that joined with an OCC 2 months before me got in, initially furloughed but flying now. Next job ? Who knows.