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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

Old 25th Aug 2020, 11:38
  #1661 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2002
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If its correct, what chance of any deal in round 2 ?

stormin norman is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2020, 13:49
  #1662 (permalink)  
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Quite likely. Lots of issues but the core one is a fracture line 34 v 24. Main objective of any BA round Two will almost certainly be to eliminate 34. All depends on the willingness of legacy contracts holders to give up some of their seniority perks and salary. If the answer is no I suspect an awful lot more junior pilots will be paying for these with their jobs.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 14:06
  #1663 (permalink)  
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The article largely reflects the comments on the open BALPA message board. I hate to think what is being said on the BA only one. If the rumours are substantiated there are some awkward questions to be asked. My own long experience of working in a unionised airline was that the senior pilots were reluctant to sacrifice a red cent for the junior ones and a good CC was critical to persuade them to do so. The 24/34 issue was the un-intended by product of the retirement age changing along with the expectation that most pilots would retire close to their original planned ages. Anyone who took the time to speak to older pilots would have soon realised that most would cling on til they had to be carried out, particularly if they had the safety net of Loss of Licence and Loss of Income Insurance. During the past 10 years with a glut of decent jobs and rapid promotion the youngsters have been able to overlook the obvious unfairness of the system by virtue of their own rapid progression. We are all in a very new world now and a workforce split by terms and conditions are going to howl with rage if the perceive that the union is not working equally for all. Own goal for the BACC's and big Balpa.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 14:30
  #1664 (permalink)  
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Can a handful of subs from legacy BA pilots really sustain balpa HQ in the manner to which they have become accustomed? Having been on the receiving end of the BACC and balpa more than once,I do hope not.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 18:30
  #1665 (permalink)  
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This thread was started on the 28th of Apr and is titled:

IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs And today in the BBC NEWS American Airlines to cut 19,000 jobs as travel falls United last month said as many as 36,000 jobs were at risk.

Germany's Lufthansa has warned it may cut 22,000 positions
Link to the BBC Article: [url=https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53910936]https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53910936

It's all relative and not good news for our industry and it's workers.
Longtimer is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2020, 22:52
  #1666 (permalink)  
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Let’s hope one of the 140 or so vaccines being developed is successful soon.

The Oxford one has run out of CV19 patients in the UK, so will do its Phase 3 testing in Brazil and S.Africa.
It has few side effects and promotes a strong immune response.
Apparently, Trump has ordered a load, to time with the election perhaps.

Then all we need are the world’s governments to stop trashing their economies.
777JRM is offline  
Old 26th Aug 2020, 08:16
  #1667 (permalink)  
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Another UK airline tried to dump BALPA and formed another union. The airline just refused to recognise the new union despite 87% membership and a promise from Mr Blair PM that companies must recognise unions with a membership over 70%?...can’t remember the exact figure.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 10:36
  #1668 (permalink)  
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I hate to admit it but I did not totally disagree with JM’s comments about pay disparity. I was a little concerned by the “ludicrous salaries” quote but based that on my pay on PP34 as a P1. When I looked at year 24 on PP24 I was a bit surprised at the disparity and level of renumeration. What further reinforced this is junior 787 captains (Around 80-85%) have been in the airline for 23 years. Suddenly the argument starts to stack up. The BACC chairman also said the incremental pay system is not compatible with DC pensions and was designed in a era of final salary pension. This again is a very valid argument.

Whats the answer? Probably fixed pay levels, maybe a service bonus like at EJ. I don’t see anyone getting a pay rise out of this though and there is no joy in seeing anyone take a pay cut either. PP24/34 is not a issue but it becomes one unless junior pilots feel represented. There is a lot of anger from the SH RHS directed squarely at senior pilots. Be that right or wrong it’s how they feel. Yes they signed up to LIFO plus but on the flip side anyone Pre 2006 signed up to pay and retirement at 55 based on PP24. It is really up to the latter to look after the junior guys, if for no other reason than to try to protect their own interests by preventing a split between us.

Don’t bark at me about the above, it is not all my own views but a overall assessment of what I hear out on the line.

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Old 26th Aug 2020, 11:14
  #1669 (permalink)  
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Much of what you say is true Bex. What I find sad about the situation is the salary envy from low down the payscales towards those high up the payscales, yet that exact same disparity existed when we were all starting out. We viewed it as, “Well my salary is pretty crap right now, but we’ll get there one day and then it will be great, and it will have all balanced out”. It was not something to envy, but something to look forward to. That is what I find difficult to comprehend. The current generation seem to be of the belief that now that pp24ers are finally starting to taste some jam, they should give it to their more junior colleagues. We have somehow been on the peanuts all this time, but we now do not deserve the jam. I totally acknowledge that I experienced a brief moment of jam before Covid pulled the rug out from underneath me, but I had been waiting over two decades to taste it.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 11:26
  #1670 (permalink)  
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We've been on peanuts all this time...
MikeAlpha320 is offline  
Old 26th Aug 2020, 11:42
  #1671 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2018
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From reading the last couple of pages it would seem that BA has suceeded in one of its main aims. It started with the demise of final salary pension for new joiners (perhaps even earlier with the demise of APS) and followed up with a 34 point pay scale. Taken together they have sucessfully created a divided workforce and now that the pressure is on, the pilot workforce is about to start fighting amongst themselves.

Indeed as evidenced in the posts further above the entire workforce (despite this being PPRuNe) are having a go at each other.

The BA management must be laughing their socks off.

Its time everyone was reminded that the common enemy is BA making an opportunistic grab at terms and conditions for its entire workforce. Don't get me wrong, I know its a HUGE crisis and it may be years before recent levels of profit return BUT does anyone seriously think that anything given up by those on better terms and conditions will be passed on to the rest? Its just a race to the bottom!
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 11:45
  #1672 (permalink)  
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The problem is that as a PP3/34 SH FO, I’ll never see the “jam” that you will GS. Not in pay, not in pension, not in lifestyle.

We are / were working 900 hours a year on SH, LH mates were doing 6 trips per month, at the sticky end of a rostering system that gives nothing but dross to those at the bottom. And now redundancy on statutory minimums with the union having the attitude of “we asked, they said no... Gallic shrug”.

I actually don't begrudge you your jam, you’ve worked for it. But a bit of an acknowledgement from your senior colleagues that maybe they’ve had the best years out of this industry, and a bit of soul searching to see if there is anything they can do to level the playing field might help reduce the “current generation’s” desire to take from your pocket.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 11:57
  #1673 (permalink)  
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GS Alpha, I don’t think it’s envy as such. I think they perceive a injustice in the lack of support for them. Whether anything could have been done is debatable and probably doubtful. I have not heard one junior pilot wish to see their colleagues stripped of pay. I do however think when we had pay rises something could have been done to help those lower down. X % of not much is not much. Perhaps under these pay cuts more should have been done to protect the salaries of those at the bottom or those being made CR with retraining loans. Again we don’t know the details.

There is anger that 300 of their friends have been made redundant while those whose roles are redundant will either take their job or earn up to 119k to stay at home. I can see the arguments and I sit in the middle ground. I am not senior but I am not junior (in the company at least) I am content with my deal and do not wish others ill. I do however feel their anger when faced with colleague who talk about “round 2” and just shrug their shoulders with the “I did my time at the bottom quote” There is a danger I think of the pilot group being split, the union in civil war and the company doing anything it wants.

Take the Jam, just enjoy it so it supports others jobs.
bex88 is offline  
Old 26th Aug 2020, 13:06
  #1674 (permalink)  
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It is all a moot point now anyway, as the CRS is knocking on my door, and I for one, would very much rather be flying.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 26th Aug 2020, 13:34
  #1675 (permalink)  
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it is a moot point. Further back in the thread, as I defended my CC pay, I was told quite forcefully that nobody deserves to be paid more for doing the same job just because they have been in position for longer. Pay scales, at least for the non- pilot community, are archaic. I don’t believe that but if I have to accept it so should you.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 07:42
  #1676 (permalink)  
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I totally agree with “thetimesreader84”GS just actually describes the division. You wait over two decades for what you describe as “jam”, & the other group works over 3 decades for the “jam”. Starting at age 31 for PP24 equals to potentially over 10 years of “Jam” working to retirement, PP34 equates to zero years of “jam” to retirement, (joining at age 31).So no, the PP34 joining at over 31 can never aspire to the same, and therefore the argument that the PP24 guys use that “we’ve all been there to reach this position “ is simply mute. PP24 was designed in a bygone era with a compulsory retirement age of 55. It is an obsolete drain on modern resource and certainly does not represent the future, slowly diminishing in size.

Now we have a real hugely sensitive example of one group of colleagues with historical 3 separate types of contracts and huge salary disparities that have been amalgamated into one group as a result of restructuring.

One can assume from this example that any group with sub groups being treated with different terms and yet using the same skill set could be subject to focus and further amalgamation for restructuring efficiencies.

PP34, have nothing to lose, however PP24...........very different story, the latter group may be advised not to be quite so vocal......the price for the creation of this division in the first place may just be on the verge of being realised.

Survival Cot is offline  
Old 27th Aug 2020, 08:03
  #1677 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 1999
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This is a very long thread and I have lost count how many times the differing pay structures have been debated, are we up to 24 or 34 times now?

Again and again and again people choose to ignore the historical background of how pay, pensions and T&Cs evolved. There were never any easy answers, just a lot of damn hard work by reps to do their best in the circumstances.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 09:11
  #1678 (permalink)  
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Pickled: I think that is untrue. The vote to bring in PP34 and put all new pilots onto it was voted through to keep PP24 and to prevent bmi being set up as a lower cost subsidiary at LHR. The reality is a lower cost subsidiary was set up within. Regardless of PP24/34 the BALPA chairman summed it up very well. The current pay structure was devised in a time of retirement at 55 and defined benefit or final salary contributions. This very set up is detrimental to DC pensions. What’s changed? 2006 retirement age, closure of NAPS and the current situation.

Inadvertently the % pay awards has further highlighted this issue. Pay at the top has run away from that at the bottom. When you consider a very significant proportion of LH captains are on the top pay and will be for a good many years to come you can see the issue. The fleets will become static with nothing other than more pilots joining the top pay bracket.

Answer to this problem. Don’t drag others down from the top, but have those at the top pull the other up. That has not and will not happen. This was voted in by those up there. During the NAPS negotiations it was stated that BARP was a unacceptable pension scheme and not fit for purpose. The problem was it had been deemed fit for purpose for all those that were on it since it’s inception, just not fit for NAPS members.

Through all these pay changes and negotiations in the past 18 months we still have pilots who are not on BA pay, they do not receive flight pay either. Where has the support been for them? Why are white tails who paid for their own training on reduced salaries? Why are some bmi pilots not paid flight pay after all the negotiations that have been conducted on pay?

The above is fact rather than opinion but I have yet to hear a good defence of the current structure. One thing is for sure though, any change will not be a cause to celebrate for anyone. Nobody will see a pay rise in the short term or over the long term.

I feel very fortunate to have a job, I am content with the deal I have and I do not wish to see anyone stripped of their income. I would however like to see those who are on DC pensions receive a salary structure that is more beneficial to that arrangement.

The problem with all of this is most of us (me included) do not know what went on behind the scenes, what leverage and pressure was applied. It may well be despite the above that it was the best available option.
bex88 is offline  
Old 27th Aug 2020, 09:16
  #1679 (permalink)  
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Since time immemorial those joining a job have looked at those who are still doing the job just 30 years on and claimed pay disparity and the ubiquitous phrase 'they have had the best years of the job'.

Ironically those who are at the top of the tree said the exact same when they were at the bottom doing exactly the same grind probably for less pay. No one in the airline industry just 'appeared' at the top of the seniority scale. Everyone has a story to tell of how they got there and the hard times overcome to do so. Aircraft were older, less automation, nav aids more basic, approaches more difficult. No GPS, beacon to beacon, unreliable engines etc. etc. etc.

I can tell you that many at the top say of those at the bottom that they don't realise how easy they have it with modern aircraft, ATC and ground systems. It's a completely circular argument.

What I will say though is that those who have worked, waited, flown the dross for years and years to get to a position where remuneration and lifestyle is acceptable/good should be allowed to enjoy that position they have worked for without constant sniping. A position earned through years of work, possibly sacrifices through military time, certainly sacrifices on a family/personal front. PP34 vs PP24 wasn't created by those in receipt of the pay either, it was forced down through the EU and BA mandated a change with the new pay points. Much as the changes to the pension schemes were never 'back dated' future contracts were changed to reflect the new normal. Anyone joining post 2006 knew what contract they were agreeing to. If it angered you so much back then then why sign?

When you have put up with the SH lifestyle for the duration of the freeze, gained some seniority and control over your roster, moved to a fleet which gives you a work life balance that suits you then see if you want to 'level the playing field' for the advantage of those new to the company? It's the movement of pilots through the less popular fleets that keeps the whole system moving. The 10 year freeze is now well gone so the system will start to accelerate with respect to retirements.

As I say to my 2 older kids, just have some patience, your time in the sun will come.

All IMHO of course.
Wirbelsturm is offline  
Old 27th Aug 2020, 10:05
  #1680 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2020
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Originally Posted by Wirbelsturm View Post
As I say to my 2 older kids, just have some patience, your time in the sun will come.
I'm assuming that they're not in the airline business then, because absolutely nobody is going to have any "time in the sun" in this rotten industry. There's only one way that salaries and working conditions are going across the board. The covid fiasco has presented management teams across the industry with a golden opportunity to drive down pilot Ts&Cs, and they're not going to waste it. Anything lost now will never be regained in the future.
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