Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

Old 7th Aug 2020, 19:16
  #1501 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 51
Bit of a long post, bear with me.......

So I'd say the redundancies are purely "political" and could have been avoided.

Lets say we're losing to CR 270 pilots basically on LIFO (assuming almost no one has conduct issues, and very few have performance issues).

So 270 x 50,000 salary = 13.5 million a year. (50,000 chosen as whilst some will be pay point 1 or 2 DEPs, many of these will be self sponsored or future pilot programme, so their basic is not a lot more than 30k,)

Well 13.5 million is only just over half a day's cash burn (according to Willie) so point 1 is that it will hardly save the company.

Point 2 - Flight Ops did not avail themselves of any of the Government's money through the Job Retention Scheme (furlough). Now regardless of whether BA decided to "top-up" as they did with Cabin Crew etc, the fact of the matter is that they could have easily furloughed 3000+ pilots (given the flying programme to date) for up to 8 months, so:

3000 pilots x 2500 per month x 8 months = 60 million direct to BA from the Government "for free".....

That's the 270 CR pilot's salary for 4.4 YEARS!!!

So if we'd used the Government money, we could've afforded to keep these 270 pilots on for the next 4.4 years! Makes you think doesn't it!!!

And now a couple of questions...

Question 1 - So we are putting 300 in a Community Retention scheme at a cost to the remaining pilots of circa 8%.... What then happens if there are further redundancies required in the future in the event of passenger traffic not recovering... Do the new redundancies (mainly more senior than the CRS 300) get pushed out to compulsory redundancy, or do they replace the 300 in the CRS? There's no right or wrong answer, but has it been considered? I don't think it has!

Question 2 - Given the CRS is likely to be including a fair number of "surplus" Captains, the "cost per head" in the CRS is likely to be quite high. Given the 270 redundancies are likely mainly pay point 1 or 2 SSPs and FPPs with a few pp1/2 DEPs, surely the extra cost of including them in the CRS could've only been an extra 2-3%? So would we have been willing to make the "cost" of the CRS 10-11% instead of 8%? Especially as it should reduce over time I would think most would say yes?

Question 3 - Why do we have just CRS and compulsory redundancy? Why not have the 300 CRS and then when someone returns to BA there is a vacancy in the CRS for one of the pay point 1/2 ppl who's been made CR to at least get some funding? Ok it would mean the 8% doesn't drop, but given the CRS only runs for two years, again maybe we as a community would've accepted this?

Question 4 - What is there to stop a 55-60+ pilot taking CRS for up to two years (say from 747 fleet), being offered a course on another fleet and turning it down and deciding to retire? The pilot community will then have funding this person for two years when they knew they wouldn't return and just wanted to max their cash before retiring?

Sorry for the long post, but I do wonder if BALPA have fully thought this through? I find it interesting that the reps doing the negotiating have made very sure that their particular demographic (fleet, paypoint) is well looked after, even if it means some other demographics suffer!!! (But then wasn't that always the way with BALPA?)

Dave is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2020, 19:53
  #1502 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,889
Your comment about CR being political is valid and I suspect the whole pilot community is aware of that. I'm afraid given the long history of "the BA way" when it comes to various employee groups at BA looking over the fence and seeing how other groups are treated I can see why it has happened but yes it sucks.

I think your Q4 is valid one, I've not seen anything to prevent somebody behaving in the way you describe but I may have missed it in all the "traffic" on this whole subject.

wiggy is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2020, 20:15
  #1503 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Runcorn,Cheshire,England
Posts: 76
there’s nothing to stop it at all, BUT I doubt it will happen in practise. Chances are they’ve passed up the offer of VR to do so, and if they’re offered an early course, and turn it down; they leave the business. They’ll have gambled on the VR sum and lost. To make it work they’d have to stay in the CRS for the whole two years to even break even.
so, whilst there’s nothing to stop it, I just can’t see anyone taking that gamble.
3Greens is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2020, 21:56
  #1504 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 688
Point 4 just will not happen for the motives you suggest. An individual would have been better off taking the VR. I think there will be some attrition with people finding better alternatives and deciding not to return to BA though. I am highly likely to end up in the CRS, but I for one will be spending the time working on embarking on a new career. I have not got enough working years left in me to sit about pinning all my hopes on BA actually make good on their promise, and allowing me to return to flying two years plus down the line. If my new chosen career suits me better by the time BA decide to invite me back, I cannot see me staying loyal to BA. If the new career isn’t working out as I hoped, then I’ll gladly take the offered course.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2020, 22:11
  #1505 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: hector's house
Posts: 66
I've just realised why the Royal Air Force gave me a 38/16 Commission and not a career for life.
hec7or is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2020, 22:44
  #1506 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,889
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
Point 4 just will not happen for the motives you suggest. An individual would have been better off taking the VR.
Having had a quote for VR I'm not convinced.....I can see circumstances in which running the clock down for a year or more in the CRS pool might be more lucrative than committing to leaving now.
wiggy is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2020, 23:03
  #1507 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 688
Well my VR quote was equivalent to about a year in the CRS bidding for short haul and close to 2 years if not bidding for short haul.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2020, 06:08
  #1508 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: New York
Posts: 28
Wishing BA staff all the best from an AF colleague. It seems like the frontline experienced BA team are getting screwed. Sorry it has come to this - always respected your professionalism. Keep your heads high.
Adambrau is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2020, 09:31
  #1509 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: sussex
Posts: 607
This is only stage one.
If things do not get back to some sort of normality by December,expect another round of negotiations in the new year.
stormin norman is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2020, 09:47
  #1510 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: North London at last
Posts: 145
Always good to inject a bit of negativity Norman whenever possible.

Looks to me that after the 270 (or less) it is the junior Gatwick skippers that will get hit the hardest. Choice between volunteering for demotion (very large pay cut) and no priority to return to LHS or CRS and being bottom of the pile with large pay cut.
FlipFlapFlop is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2020, 11:01
  #1511 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 864
This is the drum I’ve been banging on their behalf on the Balpa forums; Gatwick pilots have been completely screwed over by not treating the Airbus fleet as one list. As soon as this is over and I have an operational seat I’m of the mind to leave Balpa over it. Some of the junior(ish) Gatwick skippers (ie seniority 3100-3300 or so) will probably have the seniority for RHS LH, with the drop in take home pay I hesitate to say negligible but certainly isn’t that massive at that point. Will just depend on the individual’s motivations re their command and their family life at home as to whether that’s a viable option for them.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2020, 12:12
  #1512 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 39
Posts: 473
At that seniority they would have got LHR C32L in previous bids perhaps in this supplementary bid too.

I did not hold Balpa in high regard, but even I have to admit that without them I think we would have seen CR into the 800 number. Better to have some representation than none at all.

Second round.........don’t even go there, but be sure of one thing. Don’t expect the same patience or acceptance of any deal other than the company proposal. Best just keep our heads down and fingers crossed.
bex88 is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2020, 12:33
  #1513 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2011
Location: shenzen
Age: 39
Posts: 326
Normality is forecast, at the earliest, 2023. This is clearly just the first round. You're just very lucky that BA is "too important to fail" in post Brexit Britain.
kungfu panda is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2020, 13:22
  #1514 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 688
Have you seen the FAN Rex? It reads ‘operational preference will be given to A320 LGW to A320 LHR (Captains and First Officers)’. Is that not doing precisely what you want?
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2020, 13:23
  #1515 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 688
If you want to protect your pay, do you not just bid for all heathrow commands before your FO bids? You won’t have the seniority for a long haul command, so you will get your desired C32L, or an FO position with command pay. (I highly doubt 3100 will be senior enough for a long haul FO position with 140 more senior FOs on the 747, nearly 100 on the A380, and loads on the 777 which is also in surplus).
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2020, 13:41
  #1516 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 864
How many C32L vacancies do you reckon there’ll be? I would wager close to none.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2020, 13:49
  #1517 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 864

As far as we know the A380s are coming back. Not all immediately but nowhere near 100 A380 FOs will have to move, 777 won’t be in surplus in the RHS after all the redundancies. There’s a lot of P77L in the bottom 330. The senior 747 FOs won’t get moves to the A350 ahead of LGW P1s bidding for the same seat, the short courses clause will see to that. So I stand by my comment that those guys will have the seniority for a LH seat.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2020, 16:34
  #1518 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cyprus
Age: 73
Posts: 269
I think before you bid guys I suggest you read the prospectus for the 2.75B rights issue.
There is no issue price yet but there is a major section on fleet adjustments!
One thing that stands out it states 53 L/H a/c are to depart by the of 2020 ie another 23 a/c over and above the 744. It also mentions there is a possibility that early leases may be terminated
What it means I am not sure as it does apply to the whole group not just BA
Walnut is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2020, 17:12
  #1519 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: uk
Posts: 2
There are 2 early 777s also going, plus all of the Iberia A340 fleet. IAG is not just BA.
dufoid is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2020, 17:36
  #1520 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: North London at last
Posts: 145
14 Iberia A340 ?
FlipFlapFlop is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.