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Seniority

Old 14th Oct 2019, 11:36
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 93
Originally Posted by 172_driver View Post
That's the unfortunate truth, hence choose your career path wisely.

I really don't understand those posters who think seniority is unfair. You just cannot expect to jump the queue at any major after a couple of years in the low cost business (or elsewhere). Whadya think those FO's who've been in the company for 15+ years would think? Fair?
Who cares what they think.

If you have been a 10 year A320 FO in BA and suddenly go long haul on the 777 but are also due to be upgraded itís just tough if you lose out because a new joiner comes from KLM with 6000 hours PIC on the 777.

As far as Iím concerned if my family gets on that 777 they have the right to have the experience of that 777 captain of KLM flying them. So does any other family.

I could not give 2 hoots if that offends any FO who has been their 10 years or feels its unfair. If a pilot has the experience the airline has a duty to use it effectively regardless of your idiotic seniority beliefs.
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 12:20
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Age: 39
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Originally Posted by TinFoilhat2 View Post
Who cares what they think.

If you have been a 10 year A320 FO in BA and suddenly go long haul on the 777 but are also due to be upgraded itís just tough if you lose out because a new joiner comes from KLM with 6000 hours PIC on the 777.

As far as Iím concerned if my family gets on that 777 they have the right to have the experience of that 777 captain of KLM flying them. So does any other family.

I could not give 2 hoots if that offends any FO who has been their 10 years or feels its unfair. If a pilot has the experience the airline has a duty to use it effectively regardless of your idiotic seniority beliefs.
How does anyone ever get promoted then if you say experience on type bypasses any seniority or waiting list system?
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 12:22
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Hongkong
Posts: 187
Unhappy Seniority

Tinfoilhat.

'Who cares what they think'. I could counter that with who cares what you think. This was a most interesting discussion but with an attitude like that you're either a 50 year captain who brooks no argument, or you're management out to screw the rest of the workforce. Neither sounds like a pleasant chap and one I'd avoid trying to converse with.

If you don't even recognise your co-pilot's experience, nor do you care what they think have you considered the safety aspect of those two flying together. Probabaly not but the fact that the captain is a skygod trumps everything - or so you believe.

Please tell us all who you fly for so that we can all take a wide berth of you and your ilk.

S
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 12:31
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: South of the North pole
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Originally Posted by Sygyzy View Post
Tinfoilhat.

'Who cares what they think'. I could counter that with who cares what you think. This was a most interesting discussion but with an attitude like that you're either a 50 year captain who brooks no argument, or you're management out to screw the rest of the workforce. Neither sounds like a pleasant chap and one I'd avoid trying to converse with.

If you don't even recognise your co-pilot's experience, nor do you care what they think have you considered the safety aspect of those two flying together. Probabaly not but the fact that the captain is a skygod trumps everything - or so you believe.

Please tell us all who you fly for so that we can all take a wide berth of you and your ilk.

S
Go cry in your safe space you little whinger!!
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 12:33
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: South of the North pole
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Originally Posted by UberPilot View Post


How does anyone ever get promoted then if you say experience on type bypasses any seniority or waiting list system?
It means spots open up everywhere because all pilots are free to come and go to any airline depending on the offer at hand and the package offered. It oens up proper merit based competition for positions and keeps management on their toes knowing they cannot abuse their pilot workforce anymore.
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 17:07
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cutting grass in dessert
Age: 41
Posts: 132
have a good friend who was a CPT at a LCC got offered EK FO and BA obviously FO at the same time. Turned EK down was about to call BA and accept and EK offered him CPT salary at EK but going in as FO.
Say again?
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 18:07
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 1,106
There's a common attribute among those who speak against seniority - they all believe in a free pilot market. Where pilots are competing like merchants, traveling the world selling themselves to the highest bidder. I guess the same brigade get upset about local language requirements as well. It's excluding qualified pilots.

I am not looking for the top money, the biggest aircraft or most exotic layovers. So the argument that I can apply anywhere if I don't like it doesn't apply to me. I don't want to move. I, together with many I know, stood down early command to join an airline where we saw a long term future for ourselves and our families. I spoke to a Turkish captain recently who wanted to come home, but wasn't prepared to take the pay cut starting at the bottom. I didn't say anything, but thought to myself he'd built up too lavish of a lifestyle and wasn't prepared to go for less. I took that cut years ago and now I am reaping what I sowed. And I think that's fair.
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 18:20
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Age: 39
Posts: 293
I think thereís a key misconception amongst pilots concerning how valuable they believe they are to companies. They are valuable in the sense that each company needs 2 pilots to fly each aircraft; other than that there is very little to differentiate one from another. 10000 hours command? Sadly means very little as the 3000 hour FO can statistically do exactly the same job with a statistically proven safety record. If jets were crashing all over the place with such captains, then there would be a valid argument that a more experienced operator is required. We often compare ourselves to surgeons, lawyers, doctors etc; however these are entirely different in the sense that they are not regulated by SOP and individual talent does make a difference. Training aside, sadly experience counts for very little once certain ticks are achieved.
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 18:36
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Age: 42
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic View Post
Go cry in your safe space you little whinger!!
Are you still dreaming of joining BA Daddy Fantastic? You are aware BA is a seniority airline were everything (apart from X-mas work and leave) is based on seniority. Why bother joining, especially onto a long haul fleet were you will stay very junior for at least 5 years, if you are so against seniority based systems?

From the BA recruitment topic:
Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic View Post
For those interested in Long Haul what are the chances of getting straight onto the A350 or A380 as a non type rate DEP? Also if short haul has no class dates until Q1 2020 then what about class dates for Long Haul on any fleet?
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 18:47
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 343
Originally Posted by TACHO View Post
If I recall correctly, when Monarch met its demise Tui pulled a similar PR stunt, I think they took a grand total of around 4 pilots in the end, with experienced captains being declined an interview... DEC was not an option, and nowhere in that article above does it say that the captains being given the opportunity to work for TUI would be employed as Captains.

TUI were advertising for 'pilots' prior to the bankruptcy of Thomas cook and it took more than a precursory glance at the advertisement and terms to realise that they were, in fact, recruiting for FO positions only.

Im going to make a controversial point here. The removal of seniority would benefit the industry greatly, in todays world seniority is little more than 'golden handcuffs' that prevents the movement of experienced pilots and in many cases rewards mediocrity, whilst also allowing an airline to gain experienced guys very cheaply. Without it a pilot could freely sell his skill and experience in search of the highest bidder or airline with the most favourable Ts and Cs, Of course the guys at the top of the list are probably less favourable to this than those languishing in the middle or bottom.. but overall if one was towards the top of the list, that would imply a large measure of experience, which with the demise of seniority would mean you would possess a very marketable quality.

it exists in hardly any other industry, and by maintaining it the pilot community as a whole is maintaining a rod for it's own back that ultimately, aside from 'the few' who happened to be in the right airline at the right time', causes an industry wide 'cap' of terms and conditions.

well said.
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 18:55
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Bonvoy Marriott
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Take your case to the European Labour Authority. But do it before the end of the month!
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 19:31
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 476
Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 View Post
I have a good friend who was a CPT at a LCC got offered EK FO and BA obviously FO at the same time. Turned EK down was about to call BA and accept and EK offered him CPT salary at EK but going in as FO.
I think someone has been pulling your leg...EK would never do that, they donít need to for a start.
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 21:35
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cutting grass in dessert
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Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 View Post


It was at least 2 years ago. He wasnít the only one.

I know the guy very well and itís all true. Why do they still offer enhanced FO package for certain hours etc?
The enhanced FO salary deal is something completely different to offering a new joiner junior FO a captains salary. Which was it?
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 04:40
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 476
Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 View Post


It was at least 2 years ago. He wasnít the only one.

I know the guy very well and itís all true. Why do they still offer enhanced FO package for certain hours etc?
Enhanced FO salary and Captains salary are totally different things and different amounts.
EK have not given FOs Captains packages to get them to join.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 11:49
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic View Post
It means spots open up everywhere because all pilots are free to come and go to any airline depending on the offer at hand and the package offered. It oens up proper merit based competition for positions and keeps management on their toes knowing they cannot abuse their pilot workforce anymore.
Or
it means pilots undercutting each other, getting sacked for minor infractions because management know there's always a pilot willing to work for less. It means pilots would feel obliged to compete in fuel league tables and working more for less reward to jump the queue to avoid losing their jobs, or to to get ahead in the race for promotion.
eg BA requires P1s for the A350 so they go to the market and get the cheapest captains willing to work outside of Bidline rules. The 744 is now overcrewed so they get laid off despite many having been with the company for 10 years.
eg BA starts a new route to an exotic location but are only willing to offer a 1 star hotel and no allowances. Junior guys sacrifice pay and standards in the quest for time on a beach.

How do you determine this "merit" based system? Sim scores, overtime rates, departure times, lowest sickness levels, pilots willing to become trainers for no extra comp?
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 12:15
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 0
Bottom line is there are no UK Longhaul operators that donít operate a seniority system. I would suggest that is for a reason.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 19:42
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: LFPG
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by The Blu Riband View Post
Or
it means pilots undercutting each other, getting sacked for minor infractions because management know there's always a pilot willing to work for less. It means pilots would feel obliged to compete in fuel league tables and working more for less reward to jump the queue to avoid losing their jobs, or to to get ahead in the race for promotion.
eg BA requires P1s for the A350 so they go to the market and get the cheapest captains willing to work outside of Bidline rules. The 744 is now overcrewed so they get laid off despite many having been with the company for 10 years.
eg BA starts a new route to an exotic location but are only willing to offer a 1 star hotel and no allowances. Junior guys sacrifice pay and standards in the quest for time on a beach.

How do you determine this "merit" based system? Sim scores, overtime rates, departure times, lowest sickness levels, pilots willing to become trainers for no extra comp?
+1

This and exactly this is the reason not to do away with seniority, management don't look at pilot performance or ability, as long as you're not actively endangering the aircraft then management don't know who you are, they don't hire/care about good/great pilots, they hire compliant/competent pilots, competent pilots of which there are many, the only names they know are the ones that don't budge on working conditions/T&Cs, who go fatigued, that won't work days off so I don't know how those could argue that this makes for an improvement in working conditions.

Perhaps the case could be made that in a pilots market seniority holds us back, but the majority of the time over the past 30 years it's been an airline's market with an oversupply of pilots happy to outbid and undercut each other, which means seniority protects those of us actually working to our agreements and protecting our T&Cs, calling fatigued when required, not working days off just because a company couldn't plan adequate sick-leave cover, not accepting less when it comes to HOTAC etc.

Let's not kid ourselves, we all know there are better and worse pilots, we all go into work and see folks who shouldn't be there, we go in and see others that put our own skills to shame, there is a variety of skill level but none of that really matters because 99.99% of the time, all that's needed is someone who meets the minimum requirements, who can pass two sim checks a year and a line check, and there's plenty of those out there. There is a place for meritocracy in certain areas, where it comes to training appointments etc, but for the average pilot on the line all that's needed is acceptable levels of competence, which is where seniority excels in providing order and transparency.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 19:51
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Denver
Age: 53
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Originally Posted by The Blu Riband View Post
Or
it means pilots undercutting each other, getting sacked for minor infractions because management know there's always a pilot willing to work for less. It means pilots would feel obliged to compete in fuel league tables and working more for less reward to jump the queue to avoid losing their jobs, or to to get ahead in the race for promotion.
eg BA requires P1s for the A350 so they go to the market and get the cheapest captains willing to work outside of Bidline rules. The 744 is now overcrewed so they get laid off despite many having been with the company for 10 years.
eg BA starts a new route to an exotic location but are only willing to offer a 1 star hotel and no allowances. Junior guys sacrifice pay and standards in the quest for time on a beach.

How do you determine this "merit" based system? Sim scores, overtime rates, departure times, lowest sickness levels, pilots willing to become trainers for no extra comp?
Or: Lowest diversion levels, lowest fuel burns (by departing min fuel), lowest level of cancellations due to MX write ups or fatigue calls, it is a VERY big can of worms you open. Seniority is the worst system, except for all the others (W. Churchill)
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 12:12
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: FLSomething
Posts: 165
Originally Posted by hans brinker View Post
Or: Lowest diversion levels, lowest fuel burns (by departing min fuel), lowest level of cancellations due to MX write ups or fatigue calls, it is a VERY big can of worms you open. Seniority is the worst system, except for all the others (W. Churchill)
What youíve just said has pretty much sealed the seniority argument for me. Not sure if you think what youíre saying is a good or a bad thing though, tone doesnít really come through in text

As an FO, I donít want to fly with the person who is trying to be at the top of the fuel league table by never taking any extra, who never stops to get the aircraft checked by engineers and doesnít put in fatigue reports. The person youíve just described sounds way, way too punchy. That sort of task focused mentality Iím sure works great in the military when there is a genuine mission that must be achieved. It has no place in commercial aviation.
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 17:36
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: where I lay my hat
Posts: 109
If you think your captains are so easily corruptible, then you may be more comfortable in a desk job, and also presumably have little faith in managers/training dept to pick a "safe pair of hands", which to put it in a nutshell, is almost invariably the criteria (although I can see that in very very large airlines, it is difficult to form an impression of a crew member, as there are so many).

The most incompetent new captains I have seen, by a mile, were in a seniority airline, where you wait for your number to come up, most people pass the command assessment and almost all eventually pass the course. The sharpest and safest were where most of the trainers were ex Lightnings, out of the blue they would grab Bloggs, telling him,"you're ready get in the sim", about 3 in six pass the assessment, and about 3/4 pass the course.
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