Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Seniority

Old 14th Oct 2019, 11:43
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Room 506
Posts: 68
Having worked for two airlines that hired DEC, this is also a minefield. Unfortunately training isn't the same across the board, and whilst I am sure that a DEC from TCX would have been trained to a decent level, that isn't the case everywhere. I have flown with DEC's where it really wouldn't surprise me if they had never held a prior command. (And yes, that is the new airline's fault for hiring after a 20 min sim ride, and minimal background checks.)

I also agree that seniority is archaic and stifles a free market. I truly believe the current situation at BA wouldn't happen if the senior pilots could easily move on to similar or better terms,

I like the idea, that once you have the qualifications for the position, you can then apply and join the appropriate list. No DEC, but rapid cmd so that the individual can be properly assessed. A captain moving would have to speculate to accumulate. The airlines would have to ensure that the process is fair and transparent to attract such experience.

Base moves, fleet moves etc, free to join a list, but then frozen after a move for a period of time so that the individual has a serious think about what they actually want.

My 2c anyway. But I know it will never change. Pilots are still very much stuck in the old apprenticeship mode... "I had to put up with S**t, so I will now make you put up with the same..."
Tricia Takanawa is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 11:53
  #82 (permalink)  
Snr
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Scotland
Posts: 18
Originally Posted by TACHO View Post
So who's got it worse then and who deserves it more? The guy who is beat from pillar to post for 4 years while he keeps his eye on the prize, or the guy who expects and thinks its reasonable to be given an upgrade based only on the fact that he took his place in the line while cruising along because he could have an easy lifestyle. I think you've made the best case against seniority yet!

This is a very dangerous argument. One that the bean counters in head office will be ecstatic to see mentioned on here, particularly by an individual who is claiming the biggest advantage of a non-seniority based system is that T&C's will improve across the board. If your definition of T&C's improving is that we all work harder because we should be "willing to graft and put in a bit of work" then i'll stick with my antiquated seniority thanks. That mentality is exactly what the pro-seniority people on here are worried about - managers offering commands to people who are willing to work the days off, be extended for an extra couple of sectors, and not kick up a fuss about being worked 900 hours a year. Meanwhile those that are looking for a proper work/life balance (i.e. a less fatiguing roster that actually has some time for proper rest, not enough time to do some "underwater basket weaving"), who place the safety of the aircraft and their health over gaining an extra few hours and brownie points with management, will be left at the bottom of the pile. No matter how good a pilot they are.
Snr is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 12:16
  #83 (permalink)  
Snr
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Scotland
Posts: 18
Tricia Takanawa, a very reasoned argument. There are definite pros and cons to both sides of the coin. Personally I would have a system that is loosely based on seniority, as my airline is fairly close to being. Everything is transparent, and seniority is a perk, but by no means is it the be all and end all.

Last edited by Snr; 14th Oct 2019 at 12:17. Reason: Formatting
Snr is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 12:29
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post

They could apply to all companies hiring DEC right now if they want to so I really donít get your point.
Im talking about joining ANY company including all Legacies worldwide providing you have the right to work in that country.
TinFoilhat2 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 12:36
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by 172_driver View Post
That's the unfortunate truth, hence choose your career path wisely.

I really don't understand those posters who think seniority is unfair. You just cannot expect to jump the queue at any major after a couple of years in the low cost business (or elsewhere). Whadya think those FO's who've been in the company for 15+ years would think? Fair?
Who cares what they think.

If you have been a 10 year A320 FO in BA and suddenly go long haul on the 777 but are also due to be upgraded itís just tough if you lose out because a new joiner comes from KLM with 6000 hours PIC on the 777.

As far as Iím concerned if my family gets on that 777 they have the right to have the experience of that 777 captain of KLM flying them. So does any other family.

I could not give 2 hoots if that offends any FO who has been their 10 years or feels its unfair. If a pilot has the experience the airline has a duty to use it effectively regardless of your idiotic seniority beliefs.
TinFoilhat2 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 13:20
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Age: 37
Posts: 219
Originally Posted by TinFoilhat2 View Post
Who cares what they think.

If you have been a 10 year A320 FO in BA and suddenly go long haul on the 777 but are also due to be upgraded itís just tough if you lose out because a new joiner comes from KLM with 6000 hours PIC on the 777.

As far as Iím concerned if my family gets on that 777 they have the right to have the experience of that 777 captain of KLM flying them. So does any other family.

I could not give 2 hoots if that offends any FO who has been their 10 years or feels its unfair. If a pilot has the experience the airline has a duty to use it effectively regardless of your idiotic seniority beliefs.
How does anyone ever get promoted then if you say experience on type bypasses any seniority or waiting list system?
UberPilot is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 13:22
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Hongkong
Posts: 181
Unhappy Seniority

Tinfoilhat.

'Who cares what they think'. I could counter that with who cares what you think. This was a most interesting discussion but with an attitude like that you're either a 50 year captain who brooks no argument, or you're management out to screw the rest of the workforce. Neither sounds like a pleasant chap and one I'd avoid trying to converse with.

If you don't even recognise your co-pilot's experience, nor do you care what they think have you considered the safety aspect of those two flying together. Probabaly not but the fact that the captain is a skygod trumps everything - or so you believe.

Please tell us all who you fly for so that we can all take a wide berth of you and your ilk.

S
Sygyzy is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 13:31
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: South of the North pole
Posts: 215
Originally Posted by Sygyzy View Post
Tinfoilhat.

'Who cares what they think'. I could counter that with who cares what you think. This was a most interesting discussion but with an attitude like that you're either a 50 year captain who brooks no argument, or you're management out to screw the rest of the workforce. Neither sounds like a pleasant chap and one I'd avoid trying to converse with.

If you don't even recognise your co-pilot's experience, nor do you care what they think have you considered the safety aspect of those two flying together. Probabaly not but the fact that the captain is a skygod trumps everything - or so you believe.

Please tell us all who you fly for so that we can all take a wide berth of you and your ilk.

S
Go cry in your safe space you little whinger!!
Daddy Fantastic is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 13:33
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: South of the North pole
Posts: 215
Originally Posted by UberPilot View Post


How does anyone ever get promoted then if you say experience on type bypasses any seniority or waiting list system?
It means spots open up everywhere because all pilots are free to come and go to any airline depending on the offer at hand and the package offered. It oens up proper merit based competition for positions and keeps management on their toes knowing they cannot abuse their pilot workforce anymore.
Daddy Fantastic is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 14:47
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: chances are, not at home
Posts: 267
Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic View Post
keeps management on their toes knowing they cannot abuse their pilot workforce anymore.
As if this ain't proof enough! - I hear from an old workmate that apparently Ryanair gleefully agreed to the CCs demands to introduce a seniority list, (and agreed to pretty much nothing else), which conveniently (for ex cadets) bumped up ex cadets to have seniority advantages over already quite long serving direct entry captains when they upgrade, and in so doing, inverted the relationship between command experience and seniority. Mad! (As was my ex colleague, although I bet Ryanair couldn't believe their luck)!

Last edited by Joe le Taxi; 14th Oct 2019 at 16:17.
Joe le Taxi is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 17:07
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 78
Of course seniority helps HR.

Maybe not at the bottom ranks but imagine the SFO ready for command or TRE TRI etc etc. If you could jump to another company on better T&Cs maintain position with an excellent track record which is easy to access companies would offer more for you to stay. As it stands seniority based companies bank on the fact long term employees wonít leave as itís too risky.
Its not rocket science.
I have a good friend who was a CPT at a LCC got offered EK FO and BA obviously FO at the same time. Turned EK down was about to call BA and accept and EK offered him CPT salary at EK but going in as FO.

I donít know any other professions that have seniority as aviation does. As has been said itís a system from the 60s and 70s.
Some benefits of seniority do work but a lot benefits the companies. Many people need to wake up and understand company loyalty isnít worth it, you can and will be chopped at anytime.
AIMINGHIGH123 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 18:07
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 30W
Age: 100
Posts: 122
have a good friend who was a CPT at a LCC got offered EK FO and BA obviously FO at the same time. Turned EK down was about to call BA and accept and EK offered him CPT salary at EK but going in as FO.
Say again?
Yorkshire_Pudding is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 19:07
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 1,081
There's a common attribute among those who speak against seniority - they all believe in a free pilot market. Where pilots are competing like merchants, traveling the world selling themselves to the highest bidder. I guess the same brigade get upset about local language requirements as well. It's excluding qualified pilots.

I am not looking for the top money, the biggest aircraft or most exotic layovers. So the argument that I can apply anywhere if I don't like it doesn't apply to me. I don't want to move. I, together with many I know, stood down early command to join an airline where we saw a long term future for ourselves and our families. I spoke to a Turkish captain recently who wanted to come home, but wasn't prepared to take the pay cut starting at the bottom. I didn't say anything, but thought to myself he'd built up too lavish of a lifestyle and wasn't prepared to go for less. I took that cut years ago and now I am reaping what I sowed. And I think that's fair.
172_driver is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 19:20
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Age: 37
Posts: 219
I think thereís a key misconception amongst pilots concerning how valuable they believe they are to companies. They are valuable in the sense that each company needs 2 pilots to fly each aircraft; other than that there is very little to differentiate one from another. 10000 hours command? Sadly means very little as the 3000 hour FO can statistically do exactly the same job with a statistically proven safety record. If jets were crashing all over the place with such captains, then there would be a valid argument that a more experienced operator is required. We often compare ourselves to surgeons, lawyers, doctors etc; however these are entirely different in the sense that they are not regulated by SOP and individual talent does make a difference. Training aside, sadly experience counts for very little once certain ticks are achieved.
UberPilot is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 19:36
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Age: 40
Posts: 114
Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic View Post
Go cry in your safe space you little whinger!!
Are you still dreaming of joining BA Daddy Fantastic? You are aware BA is a seniority airline were everything (apart from X-mas work and leave) is based on seniority. Why bother joining, especially onto a long haul fleet were you will stay very junior for at least 5 years, if you are so against seniority based systems?

From the BA recruitment topic:
Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic View Post
For those interested in Long Haul what are the chances of getting straight onto the A350 or A380 as a non type rate DEP? Also if short haul has no class dates until Q1 2020 then what about class dates for Long Haul on any fleet?
Jumbo2 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 19:47
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by TACHO View Post
If I recall correctly, when Monarch met its demise Tui pulled a similar PR stunt, I think they took a grand total of around 4 pilots in the end, with experienced captains being declined an interview... DEC was not an option, and nowhere in that article above does it say that the captains being given the opportunity to work for TUI would be employed as Captains.

TUI were advertising for 'pilots' prior to the bankruptcy of Thomas cook and it took more than a precursory glance at the advertisement and terms to realise that they were, in fact, recruiting for FO positions only.

Im going to make a controversial point here. The removal of seniority would benefit the industry greatly, in todays world seniority is little more than 'golden handcuffs' that prevents the movement of experienced pilots and in many cases rewards mediocrity, whilst also allowing an airline to gain experienced guys very cheaply. Without it a pilot could freely sell his skill and experience in search of the highest bidder or airline with the most favourable Ts and Cs, Of course the guys at the top of the list are probably less favourable to this than those languishing in the middle or bottom.. but overall if one was towards the top of the list, that would imply a large measure of experience, which with the demise of seniority would mean you would possess a very marketable quality.

it exists in hardly any other industry, and by maintaining it the pilot community as a whole is maintaining a rod for it's own back that ultimately, aside from 'the few' who happened to be in the right airline at the right time', causes an industry wide 'cap' of terms and conditions.

well said.
Journey Man is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 19:55
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: LUX
Posts: 73
Take your case to the European Labour Authority. But do it before the end of the month!
SaulGoodman is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 20:31
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 418
Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 View Post
I have a good friend who was a CPT at a LCC got offered EK FO and BA obviously FO at the same time. Turned EK down was about to call BA and accept and EK offered him CPT salary at EK but going in as FO.
I think someone has been pulling your leg...EK would never do that, they donít need to for a start.
felixthecat is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 22:15
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 78
Originally Posted by felixthecat View Post


I think someone has been pulling your leg...EK would never do that, they donít need to for a start.
It was at least 2 years ago. He wasnít the only one.

I know the guy very well and itís all true. Why do they still offer enhanced FO package for certain hours etc?
AIMINGHIGH123 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2019, 22:35
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 30W
Age: 100
Posts: 122
Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 View Post


It was at least 2 years ago. He wasnít the only one.

I know the guy very well and itís all true. Why do they still offer enhanced FO package for certain hours etc?
The enhanced FO salary deal is something completely different to offering a new joiner junior FO a captains salary. Which was it?
Yorkshire_Pudding is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.