Leaving BA for low cost
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 66
Likes: 25
From: UK
monitored approaches actually make lots of sense, having seen a few go arounds now, much tidier and far less of a shock for the handling pilot to fly. After all, that’s what he has briefed, whereas the landing pilot is expecting to do that.
If I were going to nitpick an SOP that just is a bit odd, it’s the Non handling pilot selection of reverse.
I would much prefer to work for an outfit though that has an oddity like that though but trusts me as an experienced professional to pull the thrust levers from RHS or call stop as the heavy in the middle seat. Suppose it comes down to trust and experience.
You might be able to ‘pull the thrust levers’ on the ground, but we aren’t trusted to use them in the air. QED.
You cannot call ‘stop’ as heavy, that SOP changed a long time ago. Perhaps a flick through the books might be in order?!
As you were...
Last edited by DuctOvht; 28th July 2019 at 12:26.
Joined: Feb 2013
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 154
Likes: 7
From: London
I really don't get the fascination with minor variations around SOP's. Who cares? Really? The only things that matter at the end of the day are pay, lifestyle and job security. Who gets to use the thrust levers or park the aeroplane or call stop is absolutely and totally irrelevant.
Back to the thread.
The only places I would personally consider in the UK are BA, EZY or RYR. Anything else seems to me to be a gamble on long term job security. Bear in mind the "OP" is talking about leaving BA. They are not an unemployed cadet looking for their first job. However many years you have left, 10, 20, 30, 40, is anyone really confident that any other operator other than the three I have listed provide a decent shot at making it to retirement? Again I would emphasise that I say this in the context of someone gainfully employed at BA. You can afford to be picky and you must be.
Personally, I cannot imagine ever wanting to work for Ryanair. And the industrial landscape there is barely any better than at BA. You could argue it's worse. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.
That leaves easyJet.
All IMHO, obviously.
Back to the thread.
The only places I would personally consider in the UK are BA, EZY or RYR. Anything else seems to me to be a gamble on long term job security. Bear in mind the "OP" is talking about leaving BA. They are not an unemployed cadet looking for their first job. However many years you have left, 10, 20, 30, 40, is anyone really confident that any other operator other than the three I have listed provide a decent shot at making it to retirement? Again I would emphasise that I say this in the context of someone gainfully employed at BA. You can afford to be picky and you must be.
Personally, I cannot imagine ever wanting to work for Ryanair. And the industrial landscape there is barely any better than at BA. You could argue it's worse. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.
That leaves easyJet.
All IMHO, obviously.
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 35
From: Home
monitored approaches actually make lots of sense, having seen a few go arounds now, much tidier and far less of a shock for the handling pilot to fly. After all, that’s what he has briefed, whereas the landing pilot is expecting to do that.
If I were going to nitpick an SOP that just is a bit odd, it’s the Non handling pilot selection of reverse.
I would much prefer to work for an outfit though that has an oddity like that though but trusts me as an experienced professional to pull the thrust levers from RHS or call stop as the heavy in the middle seat. Suppose it comes down to trust and experience.
Third and sometimes fourth crew are only carried when Duty Period requires augmented crew.
Also BA does not use partially qualified crew members as SOs. All P2 qualified for 2 crew operations.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 995
Likes: 103
From: Botswana
FACoff if you’re SH have you considered Gatwick? I was 3 years at Heathrow made the move to Gatters in January and I honestly haven’t been as happy in BA as I have since I moved. None of this JSS rubbish, no three week long reserve periods and skippers are far better to fly with, with very few exceptions. Plus you’ll jump in seniority compared to Heathrow. To be fair I’m still desperate for Long Haul but Gatwick is, in my opinion, a far nicer place to wait it out.
Last edited by RexBanner; 28th July 2019 at 17:27.
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Uk
I’d agree that BA, easy and Ryanair are probably the most stable but having seen my mates low cost short haul roster in the orange one, it wouldn’t matter because I’d be dead or medical - less in under five years I reckon. That ain’t sustainable.
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
From: UK
This is something I’ve never really understood. Don’t BA 320 folk do 6 on /1 off 6 on? So is it just that you don’t start as early or finish as late? I can’t imagine feeling any less tired with a 2 hour wait in pret every day? Any more than a 40 minute turn and I’m losing the will ... I just want to get home!
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,226
Likes: 114
From: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 409
Likes: 3
From: The Home of the Gnomes
Depends how you look at it. If you’re junior on SH in either seat, BA will work you harder for less money than the competition. If your goal is Longhaul, if you’re junior it’s not much better and VS is probably worth serious consideration. If you’re likely to see some seniority (which depends entirely on your demographic and the date you join), it may be worth it in the long run but no, it isn’t one of the best airline gigs around. Not by a long shot.
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
From: London
Funny how the Nigel Doctrine works on some
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
From: uk
Ridiculous to say that BA,EZY and Ryanair will be the sole survivors... Im a BA Pilot and a realist!!
BA are hugely vulnerable to a third runway... The company benefits from a Heathrow monopoly. Loose that and the significant profits that go with it and IAG will look very differently at the setup! That’s if they don’t start to look at us differently regardless.
Also, we at BA have managed to see the loss of NAPS, bidline, seeded blindlines... As well as a myriad of other items that are starting to bite!! We are just as vulnerable as anyone long term ( especially Ts & Cts)... And certainly NOT the best gig in town... If you have the drive and sanity to last out the perils of JSS, a ridiculous seniority system and working out of the joy that is Heathrow... And live within suitable commuting distance... Then it’s competitive in the UK... But that’s it!!
BA are hugely vulnerable to a third runway... The company benefits from a Heathrow monopoly. Loose that and the significant profits that go with it and IAG will look very differently at the setup! That’s if they don’t start to look at us differently regardless.
Also, we at BA have managed to see the loss of NAPS, bidline, seeded blindlines... As well as a myriad of other items that are starting to bite!! We are just as vulnerable as anyone long term ( especially Ts & Cts)... And certainly NOT the best gig in town... If you have the drive and sanity to last out the perils of JSS, a ridiculous seniority system and working out of the joy that is Heathrow... And live within suitable commuting distance... Then it’s competitive in the UK... But that’s it!!
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Uk
Slavery.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,226
Likes: 114
From: UK
If I genuinely feel fatigued I’d call up and let them know. The fallout of this would be nothing negative towards me but in the year I’ve been here I’ve not had to use this facility.
If you’ve been looking at an EJ roster compared to your own BA LH one then yes we work more days than you. Go compare ours to a BA SH one and come back to me.
I think some people are a little too precious.
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 659
Likes: 10
From: The EU
To be fair, I'm not sure I'd consider £105k basic for a captain as being "paid accordingly", especially for the amount and type of work you do at easy. Every easy pilot I pass on the way to/from the car park looks like the walking dead - or certainly too tired for a polite "hello".
If lifestyle is what you're after, it sounds like neither easy or BA are the way to go.
If lifestyle is what you're after, it sounds like neither easy or BA are the way to go.
Joined: Sep 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 982
Likes: 34
From: UK
I definitely work a lot less hard and feel a lot less tired at EZY than I ever did at RYR. EZY do have some pretty early starts/late finishes which can be tiring. I'm at the big London base and average around 700 hours a year. At RYR it was 900hrs every year. I've worked for a couple pf other airlines over my career and three years in at EZY I'm very happy with the move.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,226
Likes: 114
From: UK
Funny how people look at things. BA offering a £59k basic to join and easy offered £104k. The roles are very different yes but my family don’t care which seat I sit on. I suggest you don’t look at the BA pay scales as well. The fact it takes 14 years on BA SH lgw to make the basic easy paid me the day I joined...... speaks volumes and it’s why threads like this crop up.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
From: San Diego
I’ve heard of several people who left my outfit to join BA, did a few years, and then managed to walk back across the slightly burnt bridge, albeit on the lowest contract available at the time. For most who leave to BA its for the opportunity of long haul which is just never going to be a possibility here. For some it’s the thought that, in their early 20s, being in a loco forever more may not be the most exciting career (who’d have thought, maybe it really does benefit you to go and fly knackered old TPs With the auto throttle and only a basic Ap delivering mail for a few years?). I do have to question the logic of leaving a seniority based airline after only a few years (only 1 year in some cases) of SH flying with them before having tried LH, or gaining a bit of seniority but everyone’s situation is different.
As several people have already said, the fact this thread even exists is a worrying sign of the state of our industries Ts + Cs...
As several people have already said, the fact this thread even exists is a worrying sign of the state of our industries Ts + Cs...
I only offer this because sometimes the slow and steady is the way to go. Over an entire career T&C will change. What is hard to win is chasing bases, aircraft, upgrades, etc. I know the market in Europe is different than the US, but I am reading a lot of comments on time to upgrade and to get certain bases... it makes me pause. I know nothing about the state of BA, but I will say I never would have guessed my old legacy contract would bounce back like it did.
Sometimes the current schedule makes one think that they need to make some huge change as soon as possible. If they would have waited just a year or two it could look totally different. I’ve change aircraft and bases and at times it’s seemed like a totally different company and job. If SH is Bad, try LH. Tired of that? Go back to SH. It might take time to get the position you want, but options are great. Use caution with rash decisions based on how it looks today. Step back and have the long view.
I’m happy with my decision, and it’s been a great ride, but I would have been better served by staying put. Best of luck in your decision.
Last edited by cessnaxpilot; 29th July 2019 at 22:01.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,714
Likes: 602
From: Dark Side of the Moon
I left a major legacy carrier during tough times, contract getting screwed down, seniority not moving anywhere and lots of time away from home, having said that I left due to personal issues and needing to move to the other side of the world due to a family situation. Joined a LCC and got a command in 9 months and was home every night whilst earning more than my spot at the legacy carrier.... good times ;-) Fast forward 10 years and I am still in the Left Seat with said LCC, all of my mates at the legacy carrier also now have commands or very senior FO spots in longhaul and have good control over their lifestyles, they are earning more than me and their conditions I.e pension etc are out of my league. Now the LCC has gone backwards in terms of contract, in this respect all airlines are the same constantly screwing down terms, the roster now comprises 4 and 5 day trips as this is ‘more efficient’ for the company, not a day goes by that I wish I could have stayed with the Legacy carrier, at least there you get some reward for your years of service, at the LCC I am likely to lose my bid in any given month to a 1 day Captain as it is totally random, no one is happy and I can tell you multiple 4 sector domestic days for 10 years is more fatiguing than anything I did at the Legacy carrier. As stated above, be very careful about traded short term angst against your long term prospects, what I would give now just to be able to bid to a long haul fleet for a few years, BA may be a bit hard at times but in terms of fleet choice, work choice and career opportunities you probably won’t beat it.
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,853
Likes: 356
From: UK
It’s all about how your body can cope with Jet Lag and Red eyes combined.
If you find your a quick to recover and a natural night lark LH is great.
If your an Early Bird or struggle to get over jet lag LCC is for you.
At the end if the day money is very close. Yes at Legacy you’ll earn more eventually but the money you earn in the short term can be worth more with compounding, or debt paydown.
If you find your a quick to recover and a natural night lark LH is great.
If your an Early Bird or struggle to get over jet lag LCC is for you.
At the end if the day money is very close. Yes at Legacy you’ll earn more eventually but the money you earn in the short term can be worth more with compounding, or debt paydown.
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
From: uk
There is merit to waiting your time, but I fear Ollie maybe missing the changes that have occurred over the past ten years where his friends have gained a good lifestyle. For example, PP34.. an extra ten years to get to the top of the tree now, so many joining in their thirties will enjoy only a couple of years. This coupled with the loss of NAPS to an industry competitive pension further reduces the significant benefits of a long term BA career.
Other things that must be considered (especially short haul) is the ‘Heathrow factor!’ Slot delays, 25 minute taxi times, holding inbound, waiting for stands, Aircraft and terminal swapping, 2 hour waits between flights in Pret. When you add these together over a 12 month period these add up to 10’s days of lost time ( or effective earnings ). You can also factor reserve periods into this. Considerable loss of earnings and stability can occur during your three week period of reserve. If you get unlucky and sit at the bottom of a fleet you will be enjoying plenty of reserve, regardless of weekend points. Compounded since the loss of fixed flight pay which was in existence when Ollie’s mates joined. Also, long haul are working hard, loss of back to backs due EASA makes life more difficult. Busy long haul fleets can often see five or more trips with just two days off in between. Being junior on certain fleets can be brutal, with reserve, weekend work and lack of roster control.
If you hit a sweet spot during a recruitment bulge and go in as a DEP to a long haul fleet, with 1 or 200 coming in under you on seniority, you may end up with a fairly comfortable lifestyle. However, the desire of management is to reduce lay over lengths ( short haul already enjoy many 12-14 nightstops ), address the hotel budget ( not a good thing when we spend our lives in them ). Who knows what else is to come??
BA is certainly still a decent career in the UK, but it has changed beyond recognition and our new union has a huge battle on their hands. To get to a point where you can control your roster ( tanks to JSS) and enjoy the ‘big bucks’ (PP34) is far longer than previous! Regional based flying with front loaded earnings certainly competes now, hence the frustrations of the many at BA and this thread. You certainly accept less career stability (well at the moment), but you are potentially going to enjoy a far greater work life balance ( something we take for granted whilst we young and have our health). With that said, if you can make BA work, on PP34... You may just earn more on a payslip over thirty years.
Other things that must be considered (especially short haul) is the ‘Heathrow factor!’ Slot delays, 25 minute taxi times, holding inbound, waiting for stands, Aircraft and terminal swapping, 2 hour waits between flights in Pret. When you add these together over a 12 month period these add up to 10’s days of lost time ( or effective earnings ). You can also factor reserve periods into this. Considerable loss of earnings and stability can occur during your three week period of reserve. If you get unlucky and sit at the bottom of a fleet you will be enjoying plenty of reserve, regardless of weekend points. Compounded since the loss of fixed flight pay which was in existence when Ollie’s mates joined. Also, long haul are working hard, loss of back to backs due EASA makes life more difficult. Busy long haul fleets can often see five or more trips with just two days off in between. Being junior on certain fleets can be brutal, with reserve, weekend work and lack of roster control.
If you hit a sweet spot during a recruitment bulge and go in as a DEP to a long haul fleet, with 1 or 200 coming in under you on seniority, you may end up with a fairly comfortable lifestyle. However, the desire of management is to reduce lay over lengths ( short haul already enjoy many 12-14 nightstops ), address the hotel budget ( not a good thing when we spend our lives in them ). Who knows what else is to come??
BA is certainly still a decent career in the UK, but it has changed beyond recognition and our new union has a huge battle on their hands. To get to a point where you can control your roster ( tanks to JSS) and enjoy the ‘big bucks’ (PP34) is far longer than previous! Regional based flying with front loaded earnings certainly competes now, hence the frustrations of the many at BA and this thread. You certainly accept less career stability (well at the moment), but you are potentially going to enjoy a far greater work life balance ( something we take for granted whilst we young and have our health). With that said, if you can make BA work, on PP34... You may just earn more on a payslip over thirty years.