Are the airlines to blame for the pressures they put on Pilots?

[Deep and fast]

With the recent and wholly unpleasant events in France last week, has the human interface found a way of having the final word in an industry that is citing profitability as the reason for ever sharper employment practices and poor treatment of its staff?

[midiman]

This is my take on everything and why I keep putting off trying to live my dream.

We may never know what went on in the mind of the Co-pilot of the Eurowings A320 disaster. It was a despicable act and he must have been out of his mind.


But what is even more alarming is that fact that there is probably hundreds of other Pilots who are in the same situation as him.


It’s time that something was done about this industry because people belief that Pilots are highly paid, under worked, and lead a life that you could only dream about.


They couldn’t be further from the truth. The majority of these Pilots have had to put themselves through extreme financial difficulty just to get an interview. Now, providing that you manage to get in with an airline, you will probably have to work as flight attendant like Lubitz done.


That’s about a £100k investment for license and to for consideration for employment with no certainty of a job at the end. Then even if you manage to get a position you probably be on minimal pay and put on the least desired routes for as long as they can get away with it.


The struggle to get in the air, and the way the airlines go about everything is something that put me off from applying for an ATPL.


All this paying £100K for training, running thorough burning hoops, psychometric testing, low pay, and poor conditions is counterproductive. It must be affecting the mind set of thousands of Pilots that just want to fly.


I had a recent conversation with an ex BA employee, and he said that he knew of lots of cases were Pilots suffered breakdowns. I joked about it and said that “I hope that is didn’t happen to them in the air”, but this is what happened to Lubitz!!!


This disaster that brought a lot of problems to the forefront of the media and the airlines should open up about how they treat their staff.


WE NEED WHISTLEBLOWERS in this industry to protect the public from serious incidents.


It’s obvious that something is not right; didn’t most of Eurowings go on strike the other year?


The 150 lives is a small price to the Airlines, but a huge loss to each and every one of the families that got caught up in all of this.

[Deep and fast]

German wing I think you mean.
And I'm sure the accountant are doing the maths on how much this will cost them at German wings and Lufthansa.

It has to be said that their terms and conditions are some of the best but this was under threat.

To much money to change the industry practises irrespective of what happens is what I think they would say.

I guess 1euro a ticket is too much to pay!

[Kirks gusset]

Above average salaries ( some even swing tax free)
Cheap staff travel
Free Food and water
4/5 star Hotels
High level of respect from customers
Much envied position/ glamour perceived
Free clothing
Yep the management are really screwing us!

Of course you can argue long hours, unsociable roster patterns, high risk element but that's what we get paid to do..This guy could teach our union reps that get more than a senior Captain a trick to two!

Japan Airlines' CEO pays himself less than the pilots, takes the bus to work - Boing Boing

[Skipping Classes]

this has to be taken very seriously

this says it all:

She [the girlfriend] added that he became stressed when they spoke about work: "He became upset about the conditions we worked under: too little money, fear of losing the contract, too much pressure."

[Greenlights]

Above average salaries ( some even swing tax free)
Cheap staff travel
Free Food and water
4/5 star Hotels
High level of respect from customers
Much envied position/ glamour perceived
Free clothing
Yep the management are really screwing us!

depends on airlines then...
high level respect from customer ? lol !!
much envied position ? lol! not anymore, maybe in 70's yeah
( Pilot Career Is Losing Its Appeal, Shows Survey | Air Transport: Aviation International News )

Free clothing ? lol again ! ask FR pilots then ^^ (even ask about water or coffee)
and anyway, that is the least for clothing, it's completely normal that your company pays for it. Even Mcdonald give you uniform.
Free travel, hum, many don't want to parade in an airport when you are on holidays (you especially want to stay with your kids).

[MCDU2]

He must be a management pilot. My airline is more like 3/4 star hotels and the only people that perceive us as being well paid are the ccms. As for pax respect well I would suggest that they quietly laugh at how we have to wear silly hats and get to work weekends and Xmas.

[Lafyar Cokov]

Whilst I would also agree that terms and conditions in some airlines and particularly how air-crew are perceived by the bean-counters at the top could all be items worth discussing - I can't help but read into this a bit of 'jumping on the band-wagon' by citing the German Wings accident.

The results of any official investigation into this accident are weeks/months away and while there does seem to be some evidence to indicate human factors - I really feel that the prosecutor, press and industry have been extremely quick to condemn this First Officer.

Whatever the cause of this accident a full and thorough inquiry should find out the causes and reasons behind this dreadful episode - however I can't help but feel that to link what type of hotel crew stay in, whether they pay for their uniform etc with this crash is a little far-fetched.

[Skyjob]

Originally Posted by Kirks gusset

Above average salaries ( some even swing tax free)
Cheap staff travel
Free Food and water
4/5 star Hotels
High level of respect from customers
Much envied position/ glamour perceived
Free clothing

As you are from Dublin, you are surely aware that the points above mentioned as perks in a based large airline do not exist... Let us go through the list:

• Above average salaries - A London Tube driver earns a higher basic salary, as do many bus drivers, teachers, doctors, we can go on for a long time in this list;
• Cheap staff travel - non existent for many staff, and for those with access to it looking into recent flights revealed full fare price sometimes work out cheaper;
• Free food and water - only water provided due latest EU security reglations preventing crew to bring their own, food has never been "on the house" and must be taken at cost from a crew members' home or purchased at a airport prices;
• 4/5 star hotels - no night stops, but if operating out of base, your travel and accommodation requirements are yours for being rostered to do so, in your own time travel there and stay at what you want to pay for (or can find);
• High levels of respect from customers - let's not even start there, the incidents and comments heard on a daily basis would will a blog in itself;
• Much envied position/ glamour percieved - So much envied that most are looking for that opportunity to fly elsewhere, company requires more crew to be trained to replace them when they are successful, whilst growing at a rate which already demands sensational training levels required to achieve so;
• Free clothing - the uniform is paid for by staff out of their own pocket, a privileged link to a selected uniform provider who can provide all elements of the required uniform is given, but they charge 25-50% more then other providers.

Please review your understanding of many crew in modern days as not all have any of the privileges you mention, in fact none. When you can come to that conclusion, then look at those crews and see what other stresses lay hidden underneath that ironed uniform worn by these young men and women in front of new shiny jets.

[Mr Boombastick]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/28/germanwings-crash-exposes-pressu

An excellent article here, very accurate.

The fact is airlines are squeezing every last thing they can out of their pilots, this is understandable as profits are king but a line has to be drawn somewhere.

But when airlines are making so much money - 1/2 a billion last year for a certain carrier and they still can't provide a bottle of water and a coffee or sandwich for their crews (even if delayed and crews have run out of provisions for the day) then that becomes completely unacceptable and there will hopefully be nowhere to hide for them with increasing scrutiny in the coming months.

It a sad state of affairs that it takes a tragedy for attention to be drawn to this and for carriers to be forced into accepting a duty of care for their staff but hopefully this could be a positive to come out of this truly awful event.


Alps tragedy exposes relentless pressures faced by commercial pilots | Comment is free | The Guardian

[Deep and fast]

I seem to remember he said "one day I'm going to do something to change the whole system"

Now the question is, what system was he talking about?

If it was the employment practises of airlines then it is worthy of discussion.

I met some Lufthansa cadets recently and although the training was not free any more they still had some of the best prospects for cadets in Europe. Now if operating under those conditions created enough stress or resentment to do this then there may be another with the same mental problems.

The first thing that must be done is for the regulators to get out online and talk to crew, find out what is happening on their turf and not just bury their head in the paperwork at the office.

Also, I know of two pilots losing their medical due to stress and loss of licence does not cover this. Think about it, no more money coming in, family and mortgage needs providing for and what do you do if your profession has no mechanism for dealing with this?
I'm glad I no longer work in the airline industry.
I have huge respect for Lufthansa for trying their best with this guy, but it failed. There has to be a better way for the industry to deal with the vunrable soft fleshy thing that flies the aircraft.

[CargoOne]

Skipping Classes

She [the girlfriend] added that he became stressed when they spoke about work: "He became upset about the conditions we worked under: too little money, fear of losing the contract, too much pressure."

Yeah, too little money. That's why he gifted her just a shiny new Audi instead of Aston Martin.
If someone is upset being on LH mainline payroll and seniority, needs an immediate medical attention, that's for sure.

[Kirks gusset]

Skyjob,

Comparing T+Cs at a major with a LoCo is like comparing working at the corner shop and Harrods, you can't..I believe the original poster reflecting on the tragic events in France wanted to "stir it up" and drag the whole usual debates about Debt, PTF, Hours, etc into the forefront. Apologies in advance if this is not the case..However, there is a valid issue on pressure relating to FTLs and rostering and I am aware from feedbacks that the short haul fleets do everything to a minimum, i.e.Rest, Salaries, however, this was always a breeding ground for long haul ops where the real perks and benefits existed. Unreasonable practices would relate to " forcing people to fly whilst fatigued" " Changing off days with no notice" " early starts after single off days" etc etc. The essence of this forum is debate and mutual enhancement of knowledge, unfortunately, in recent times the forum has become a platform to " wash our dirty linen in public" and I, along with many colleagues 20 Plus years in the industry, really question if this is a worthy direction for the platform to proceed. When I joined as a youngster my HR manager was earning twice my salary, now I am earning four times his, on the other hand he.she works 9-5 for 37.5 hours a week, we, in reality work/report twice that on average. " Sharp practices" yes they exist, but that is not unique to our industry.. PS can't be a tube driver my eyesight is too poor!

[Skyjob]

Originally Posted by Kirks gusset

Comparing T+Cs at a major with a LoCo is like comparing working at the corner shop and Harrods, you can't..

Thus as you cannot compare the two, the public needs be aware of the differences and not treat "pilots" as the one extreme only, the one you described. The fact that many carriers exploit their flight crew, who have gone through great debts and training to get to their current position, yet remunerate them in a manner equivalent to someone in other industries who need not had to put a penny down for it, needs be addressed.
How many other lines of occupation are in existence where people embarking upon it require to pay a mortgage-equivalent amount for a piece of paper showing their prospective employers they are qualified for the job on offer?
If passengers and the public would be allowed to learn of the "non-existing" perks in many carriers, the hoops pilots need to jump through prior to their first job, they may be treating them with a bit more respect and understanding, surely a benefit to us all...

[Greenlights]

Comparing T+Cs at a major with a LoCo is like comparing working at the corner shop and Harrods, you can't..

except that nowadays, there are far more LCC than Majors.
Most of pilots start at LCC and will be stucked there because there are thousands of pilots waiting at the door of the Majors.
Majors tend to lower conditions to be competitive, in the near futur, all majors will have nearly the TC's like Low cost cariers.
For any wannabe there is no point to look at majors TCs, they should only see what a LCC looks like indeed.

[Deep and fast]

"Stir things up" "washing our dirty laundry in public"

If there is an issue to addressed, it needs to be addressed.

This job is a safety critical one than relies on professionality education and discipline. As such an employer should see you as a stakeholder in the company rather than a source of profit or a comodity to be exploited.
When you have a father of a dead passenger saying on the BBC that companies should look after their pilots then that really should strike a chord with all in the industry. I'm sorry my continued discussion about treatment of staff in the industry irks some people, but before you criticise me, have a look how your situation would be if YOU joined the industry today.

[Kirks gusset]

Had the conditions prevailed then as they do now probably many would have thought twice. Fundamentally then we joined to forge a career, these days guys hop from company to company in search of wide bodies and big bucks then complain as to their treatment by the management, which on the whole is a culture problem for many working outside EU. It goes without saying that safety is a critical issue, however the public are fickle and forget tragic events but remember pilot strikes when we are portrayed as a protected overpaid species. As nearly all recent disasters have been Pilot error, joe public would vote for better training and experience levels over our pay and conditions. In simple terms the public doesn't have a clue and we are labelled by the media in a certain way, sadly mud sticks. Commercially this is a dog eat dog industry and managers support their working practices based on the premis the airline must survive. The industry is corrupted from the bottom up when guys accept jobs on poor conditions driven by pressure and debt. The reality is for every guy that says "no stuff it" you will find ten to accept. Incidentally the London tube drivers do so well due to strong unions that can call out all sorts of workers in support of pay claims etc. observing the recent NAS dispute real traction was made After support from ground staff. Same with Shamrock in 2009 .Im too old for it to effect my career now but not too old to care.

[macdo]

gusset

I work for a legacy carrier on an old and largely generous contract. But, even for we lucky ones the future looks like a continuing battle with management to keep what we have, let alone improve on it.
Take your comments one by one:
Above average salaries YES, BUT DIFFERENTIALS WITH OTHER PROFESSIONS HAVE FALLEN. ( some even swing tax free) ONLY IN RETURN FOR SAND.
Cheap staff travel RECENTLY CUT BT 50%
Free Food and water FOOD OFTEN INEDIBLE, USUALLY UNHEALTHY,
4/5 star Hotels ALWAYS THE WORST ROOMS IN THEM.
High level of respect from customers PARTLY TRUE BY SOME
Much envied position/ glamour perceived SEE DICTIONARY DEFINITION OF THE WORD 'GLAMOUR' FITS THE JOB PERFECTLY.
Free clothing AGAIN, ONLY SOMETIMES AND OF POOR QUALITY.


There is one timebomb which will rear its ugly head in the coming years. This is Loss of Licence and Permanant Health Insurance .
Many now don't get these (TAXABLE) perks, they are purchasable, but are very expensive, maybe prohibitively so, if paying off 125k of loans.
If you want pilots to honestly self report illness, in a job where being grounded could equal a permanant loss of income, these insurances are an essential part of any pilots contract. Sadly, those that currently have them are battling to save them, those that have started without will never have the safety net that I have.
20 years down the line, mortgaged to the hilt and a family to feed, I suspect todays youngsters will be disinclined to admit to any illness they could cover.

I wonder if the GermanWings FO would have reported for duty if he felt secure in his job and the contactual protections that it gave him? We will never know, but a few commentators are asking this question. In reality, the GermanWings guy had quite good t&c's by todays standard, but this does effect peoples state of mind.

[Cliff Secord]

I felt angered that the depression link was put forward as if it was a sole cause. They could've said the guy had a physical illness and tried to cite that as a cause for all the relevance.

I'm no psychologist but depression does not hallmark itself as taking others with you. The eagerness of the investigative team and media has thrown a struggling battle the mental health support services had to bring understanding of depression into disarray. I don't believe either that stress and pressure would cause these actions.

As aside, I feel the arrogance of the industry is to believe their actions and practices are not part of an environment that contribute towards mental health issues such as depression. They are and if one thing may come to light is hopefully the regulators wake up to the obtuseness they have shown in believing Pilot's either have to be super human or get out of the kitchen.

However, the actions seen here are different level. I'm sure if the guy was still alive he would be diagnosed with a severe psychiatric disorder, one which stress or depression alone would not account for. I hope the correctly qualified people have enough material and medical records to make an informed judgement.

[the_stranger]

Cargoone

Yeah, too little money. That's why he gifted her just a shiny new Audi instead of Aston Martin.
If someone is upset being on LH mainline payroll and seniority, needs an immediate medical attention, that's for sure.

Fully paid or financed? In the latter case, it really doens't say anything about his salary, possibly something about his fear of losing her...