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Norwegian B787 - LGW based

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Norwegian B787 - LGW based

Old 30th Aug 2016, 15:01
  #721 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately, I think what they are "really" looking at is what has been the most scrutinised aspect of selection in most "bottom feeder" carriers this last decade or more . . . . the willingness to put forward a bank bond to cover THEIR training expenses . . . cynical ? me ?
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Old 2nd Sep 2016, 08:42
  #722 (permalink)  
 
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@ captplaystation

I really don't think so, since the bond is exactly what it is - money you guarantee or get back. If you pay in EUR 30,000 you will get EUR 10,000 back each year for three years. A much better deal than many other airlines where you gave to pay your bond (and sometimes not even guaranteed a job). After three years you are free to move on somewhere else if you like, and no money has to be paid. If you leave earlier, yes the bond covers a small portion of the training costs.

I think the Norwegian recruitment team are looking for future colleagues, that fit into the pilot group and work well together and that can pass the quite compressed training (if you have previous Boeing experience). Norwegian is not involved with the bond.
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Old 3rd Sep 2016, 09:23
  #723 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps viewed as a stepping stone, and then move on to somewhere with a real salary & a real roster.


https://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/14...OB-Jobsbyemail
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Old 3rd Sep 2016, 10:06
  #724 (permalink)  
 
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Yes I think they will no doubt lose guys to this contract. Even breaking any bond would be recouped in a very short space of time.

If enough guys leave, maybe they will relook at their contract terms, or maybe I'm just being incredibly naive
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Old 3rd Sep 2016, 13:08
  #725 (permalink)  
 
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Do you know when they will base b787s at BCN?
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Old 3rd Sep 2016, 17:56
  #726 (permalink)  
 
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Norwegian is not involved with the bond
Of course Norwegian is involved with the bond. Who do you think directs Rishworth’s broom cupboard London office and Oslo based Orient Ship Management to implement and enforce it?

To my knowledge, no other participant in the Open Skies Agreement requires its pilots provide a 30k bond for training. Many unanswered questions remain regarding what is effectively a pay-to-fly scheme (no pay=no job);

Who collects the interest from all the 30K payments?

If Norwegian terminates their contract with your employer agency for your individual services, are you still obligated to pay the bond?

A study by the EU Commission concluded:-

"The ‘dependency’ created by conditional and precarious employment arrangements could place an employer’s commercial imperatives in conflict with the pilot’s legal duty to take independent professional safety judgments before other considerations”

https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/default/files/atypical_employment_two_pager_nt_15_0325_f.pdf

Additionally, how many pilots are being interviewed for a possible Cork, Ireland, 787 base with Irish employment contracts, or will pilots be bouncing all over the system as they are now?
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Old 4th Sep 2016, 10:29
  #727 (permalink)  
 
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I could be very wrong @Direct Bondi - so excuse me if I am , but I would be very surprised if it was a 787 going into Cork. Longest runway in Cork 35/17 is only 7,000ft Approx .
Shannon would be more realistic with a runway 06/24 of over 10,000ft Approx
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Old 4th Sep 2016, 13:13
  #728 (permalink)  
 
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Do you guys seriously not understand the difference between a bond and paying for the training? You are not required to pay money to anyone, you are not even required to take out a loan. A bank guarantee meets the requirements, which can be a simple line of credit extended to you by the bank that would pay Norwegian in the event you leave prior to three years. It is sort of like checking into a hotel and them running your credit card to pay for incidentals, or to guarantee the reservation. No money is actually being taken from you, but the hotel can recoup its costs in the event you cancel or run up a huge bill.
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Old 4th Sep 2016, 14:49
  #729 (permalink)  
 
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So, for those fortunate enough to own a house, you probably put your ownership of that on the line . . . for those of us not, we would have to prove to the bank that we were creditworthy enough with the woeful salary on offer . . . . banks are not quite so keen to offer any credit /guarantee as during the (imaginary ) "halcyon" days a few years back when it was still believed money grew on trees. . . . .
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Old 4th Sep 2016, 15:01
  #730 (permalink)  
 
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NEDude. I thought that one of the points of this thread was that it isn't a bond with Norwegian. It has been stated on here many times that you have to shell out €30k which is then repaid to you over 3 years.

Last edited by JaxofMarlow; 5th Sep 2016 at 09:43.
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Old 7th Sep 2016, 11:37
  #731 (permalink)  
 
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It is sort of like checking into a hotel and them running your credit card to pay for incidentals, or to guarantee the reservation. No money is actually being taken from you, but the hotel can recoup its costs in the event you cancel or run up a huge bill
Hilarious – let’s examine this inventive but flawed analogy;

A hotel reservation, completed guest registration and credit card details, forms a contract directly between you and the hotel. At any time during your stay you are dissatisfied with the hotel/services you have the right to complain to the manager. You also have consumer protection laws and rights via your use of a credit card. If a matter is not resolved you can check-out.

Is there a contract between the pilot and Norwegian? - Answer: No

If a pilot is dissatisfied with a roster, base reassignment, winter layoff, promised upgrade, is the victim of Norwegian’s promoted anonymous reports from a “colleague” or other unsavory matter, can that pilot complain to a Norwegian manager with protection from any adverse affect to their work circumstances and/or future with the company? – Answer: No

Can an indentured pilot ‘check-out’ from Norwegian? – Answer: Yes, it will cost 30,000.

Look at this from another angle – If conditions and treatment are so wonderful, why does Norwegian feel the need to indenture its pilots in the amount of 30K? Norwegian regularly announces it receives thousands of applications from pilots and its terms and conditions are on par with legacy airlines. Pilots at Norwegian have never had it so good (allegedly). If so, why do so many want to leave and would not recommend Norwegian?

http://www.dn.no/nyheter/naringsliv/...-nsker--slutte

A perfect example of 'Norwegian’s job promises versus Norwegian’s job reality' is evidenced in an interview with a Norwegian crew member on YouTube and his subsequent action. The crew member gives the distinct impression he has no use for a labor union nor their representation in his newly found Norwegian dream job:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT-HkZgO10Q

At 50 seconds the crew member states: “You definitely have a much more close relationship with your co-workers and your managers”. At 1.14 he talks about his last job where he was involved with union work. After a short time at Norwegian he believes unions should not oppose nor fear the “outsourcing” of crew members. At 1.50 he informs us, “We have the same benefits a lot of the airlines in the US have fought years to get, we have that from the start”. Most notably, at 2.15 he states:

“I want to tell them [labor community/unions] there’s nothing to worry about, but that’s something they’re going to find out for themselves”

Apparently, he found out for himself. After awakening to the realities and gross hypocrisy of the Norwegian regime he became active in the formation of the Norwegian Cabin Crew Association and is now their President! - Link:

http://cabinassociation.org/

Compare his comments in the YouTube video to his comments as NCCA President in the following press release. It’s hard to believe it’s the same person:

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...ss-Release.pdf

“The US based cabin crew is the first work group in the Long Haul operation to unionize, but we won’t be the last. We are counting on our LGW and BKK based colleagues to step-up and unionize” - “……..with the current rate of turnover for pilots and cabin crew, they’re not geared toward success”

What happened to the 'dream job', close relationship with managers and no use for union representation?

I accept that pilots need jobs. I do not accept chumps defending Norwegian’s snake-oil and drinking Kjos Kool-Aid.

Last edited by Direct Bondi; 8th Sep 2016 at 07:04. Reason: additional information and link
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Old 11th Sep 2016, 11:14
  #732 (permalink)  
 
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Now that they will open a longhaul base in BCN, will they make a spanish contract? Or will they keep you on the same UK contract?
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Old 11th Sep 2016, 16:30
  #733 (permalink)  
 
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^important!
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Old 11th Sep 2016, 16:38
  #734 (permalink)  
 
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I think they are not serious, AT ALL.

Several friends of mine, flying the 777 as FO and cruise relief captian in a major company with at least 3 years of long haul experience and more than 6000 hrs total flight time went for the interview for CAPTAIN RELIEF position.....

during the interview they were even told that being cruise relief captain they should espect after 1 year to be upgraded to Cpt....

all went good, very good.... they passed the interview and they received the email with the offer for FO position!!!!

Of course they refused. I do not understand, if I apply for Capt relief why offer me a job as FO? If I do not perform well in the interview just tell me that i am not maybe ready to be relief captain or fail me, They should speak clear...I know many who got same treatment and apparently they are offering this position to captains coming from FR..

Furthermore, a friend of mine passed the interview as I said, so He replied to them asking why he was offered a FO position if all went good and He applied as Relief CPT....they did not reply for 3 days and then he received another e-mail stating they are sorry but he did not pass the assessment!!! Amazing! How can I trust a Company if they treat you in this way before joining the them!!!

Far from them!
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Old 12th Sep 2016, 14:45
  #735 (permalink)  
 
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What O’Leary says

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFYWbCw-T7M
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Old 13th Sep 2016, 11:46
  #736 (permalink)  
 
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Hilarious – let’s examine this inventive but flawed analogy;

A hotel reservation, completed guest registration and credit card details, forms a contract directly between you and the hotel. At any time during your stay you are dissatisfied with the hotel/services you have the right to complain to the manager. You also have consumer protection laws and rights via your use of a credit card. If a matter is not resolved you can check-out.

Is there a contract between the pilot and Norwegian? - Answer: No

If a pilot is dissatisfied with a roster, base reassignment, winter layoff, promised upgrade, is the victim of Norwegian’s promoted anonymous reports from a “colleague” or other unsavory matter, can that pilot complain to a Norwegian manager with protection from any adverse affect to their work circumstances and/or future with the company? – Answer: No

Can an indentured pilot ‘check-out’ from Norwegian? – Answer: Yes, it will cost 30,000.

Look at this from another angle – If conditions and treatment are so wonderful, why does Norwegian feel the need to indenture its pilots in the amount of 30K? Norwegian regularly announces it receives thousands of applications from pilots and its terms and conditions are on par with legacy airlines. Pilots at Norwegian have never had it so good (allegedly). If so, why do so many want to leave and would not recommend Norwegian?
Hence the reason I used the phrasing "sort of like" instead of "exactly like". Perhaps you need an English refresher...

Depending on the terms of the reservation with the hotel, you may be charged fully or partially for the entire duration of your reservation, regardless of whether you stay the full time or check out early.
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Old 13th Sep 2016, 13:36
  #737 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you for highlighting the unsavory conditions at Norwegian, above.

Perhaps one day, you and your kind may provide a more convincing argument in defending the regime - that would indeed be refreshing.
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Old 13th Sep 2016, 18:19
  #738 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you for highlighting the unsavory conditions at Norwegian, above.

Perhaps one day, you and your kind may provide a more convincing argument in defending the regime - that would indeed be refreshing.
Here is a piece of advice for you from nearly 30 years of flying, and well over two decades of doing it professionally on three different continents:

The industry is a mess and there is nobody who is going to look out for you, not your union, not your company, not your colleagues. And every new airline that comes along is ALWAYS accused of "lowering the bar", or "dragging down the profession". Anyone that innovates, regardless of industry, is considered dangerous and faces opposition (look at the opposition to Uber or the issues Elon Musk is facing getting his Tesla cars to the market in a lot of countries). As time passes, the innovator or new entrant becomes the establishment and soon another new entrant is branded as "evil".

Let's look at some of the airlines in North America as an example. In the early 1980s a new ultra-low cost airline called PeoplExpress was founded. Pilots were poorly paid, lacked union protection, and were forced to do jobs like taking tickets, helping to load bags, and clean the cabin. They were considered dangerous and their pilots were often accused by their peers as lower the bar of the profession. Fast forward 30 years and where are all those guys who were working for PeoplExpress? They are all senior captains at United (Continental bought PeoplExpress and now Continental has merged with United). So the guys who were at one point lowering the bar are now the senior ALPA members at one of the largest legacy airlines in the world.

Southwest was also considered dangerous at one point, so much so that the establishment went to court to fight them.

Virgin America was considered the worst airline in North America by the established airlines and the unions. The pilots were treated poorly and looked down upon for..."lowering the bar" (see a common theme here?). Now VX is a proud ALPA member and being merged with another legacy airline.

Southwest airlines required their prospective pilots to get a 737 type rating for nearly 40 years, only recently dropping the requirement. While SWA was never officially tied to the type rating mills, they certainly had a close relationship with one or two, and thousands of pilot shelled out thousands of dollars to get their 737 ratings hoping for a shot with SWA.

So my point is that while the idea of paying for a type rating, or providing a bank guarantee, or paying for training, or paying for line experience, may not be palatable for most of us, the reality is that this is overwhelmingly what the industry is. For every guy that gets hired by a big legacy airline, has everything paid for, and has a nice trouble free 30 year career before riding off into the sunset on his nice pension, there are 20 or 30 other guys who have to bounce around between multiple airlines, working multiple contracts and various parts of the world, or who end up flying for second rate carriers. If you are certain that you are going to land your dream job at Lufthansa, Delta or Qantas, then go ahead and roll the dice and be thankful if you land it. But refusing another job because they are "lowering the bar" will do nothing to change the industry. The only thing that will change the industry is the market.

Here is a piece of advice I got from an acquaintance of mine. At 25 years old he was hired by PeoplExpress and is now a senior 777 captain at United based in EWR. When he was hired at PeoplExpress, friends and acquaintances of his that got hired at PanAm, TWA and Eastern all accused him of lowering the bar. He has ended up having a nice and relatively steady career, while most of them have ended up bouncing around with several different airlines. His advice to me was to always take the best available offer that you have, even if it may not be the best job out there. Because you have no way of knowing what will happen over the next 10, 20 or 30 years. What may be a crap job today can end up being the best job in 20 years, and the best job today may not exist in 20 years.
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Old 13th Sep 2016, 20:17
  #739 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
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"Good point well made" as they say . . . best of luck to those who roll the dice

(fortunately the rating & a bit of experience will give you a joker card or two in the deck https://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/14...&cm=2016-09-03 )

Last edited by captplaystation; 14th Sep 2016 at 01:01.
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Old 13th Sep 2016, 21:00
  #740 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
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NEDude;

After 33 years flying transport category jets all over the world, including flying in the US during the Lorenzo and Icahn 80’s, I do not need your advice on this, nor any other matter. Thank you very much. You are entitled to your opinion.

Anyone that innovates, regardless of industry, is considered dangerous and faces opposition

Via his novel and complex labor model, Kjos has introduced the “innovation” of circumventing labor laws, labor rights and labor principles for pilots and cabin crew flying with most of his airline divisions, and in some instances charging pilots 30K for the privilege!

Defending Norwegian’s abhorrent regime on the pretense of innovation and that it may be the best job in 20 years, is neither legitimate nor palatable.


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