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Returning to Flying

Old 26th Oct 2014, 10:36
  #21 (permalink)  
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,042
My advice: don't listen to Aussies, they're the biggest selfish off-day-selling you'll find in this industry.
Possibly true, not sure, I'm British myself, did all my professional flying employment for non-Australian companies, outside Australia, just came here to retire. Don't think you will find anything in my posts that is particularly 'protectionist' of Australia or Australian jobs.

Jaydubja, you will have noticed posts on here by people who are secure in their airline employment yet are obviously now bored, well, tough tit, they made a bad choice. The suggestion you look at the corporate world is a good one, you don't have to spend the rest of your life there, but avoiding the poisoned minds of people like Bokkenrijder is essential and the corporate world may be the answer!
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Old 26th Oct 2014, 11:06
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: "this is where the magic happens"
Posts: 260
...just came here to retire.
So how relevant is your opinion on today's reality?

Enjoy your retirement! I sincerely hope you've enjoyed the true glory days of aviation and that you have an ample and well deserved pension.

Unfortunately the rise of the LCCs will make this nearly impossible for today's generation of pilots. Where Sir Freddie Laker failed with his Skytrain, nowadays Norwegian, Air Berlin, Air Asia, Scoot and Jetstar are successful. It's great for the traveling public, but a horror for any long haul pilot. Life for the short haul pilot is not much better, because the only jobs are in the LCCs.

The same is more or less true for the Middle Eastern carriers, who are disguised low cost airlines when you look at their overall costs, aided by cheap immigrant workers, no unions and errr 'flexible' labour laws (just read the topics about poor the pay is compared to inflation and cost of living in DXB, DOH and AUH), yet with a premium product so employees easily confuse them with legacy European carriers.

Sorry old man, I know that it was not all fun and roses during the 70's and 80's, but with the EU deregulation, Open Skies, the EASA FTL's, the Middle Eastern carriers and the EU LCCs hammering away at the T&C's it's a totally new and different game now.

Unfortunately it seems you're stuck in the past and you think that you can just 'copy paste' the past into the future with all it's ups and downs. You can't...Everyone who is honest and realistic has to admit T&C's are on a seriously downward slope, it has nothing to do with sour grapes, frustration or a poisoned mind.

Again, JW, if you really enjoy flying then stick to general aviation and a PPL/IR/ME!
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Old 26th Oct 2014, 11:37
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Asia
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I do agree with Bokkenrijder.

Never ever listen to old people, I did a few years ago and I did a mistake.

Actually even pilots in their forties , they are out of the game.

I am in my thirties, and when I started my CPL IR, I was about 20 y/o.

At that time, older pilots told me : it's not easy but just go to Africa with your backpack and see the companies to find a job etc. Or just do insutrction, towing gliders etc.

Their advices were already old. Just because they did that, then they give these old advices who do not work anymore.
Airlines do not care about your experience in africa, as FI or else, or on any single engine.

Some people will say "all people think it was better before".

But, nowadays, we have just seen , Air France on strike, Lufthansa on strike...which had never happened in the 70 as far as I know.

My advice : don't listen to old pilots, the worst is to listen to the retired pilots (who did not fight for us by the way). I have nothing against them, they are just out of the game from a long time.

Listen to pilots in their 30 or so, who live the reality today and are enough mature and aware of what is happening in the industry.
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Old 26th Oct 2014, 12:43
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Actually even pilots in their forties , they are out of the game.
Well, yes and no.

Actually they are in the very middle of the game, but usually they suffer from a severe case of "normalcy bias" (wiki here), are heavily in debt (house, car) and have large commitments (wife, kids, debt) which makes them not want to accept reality.

Their way of dealing with it is by sticking their heads in the sand and hoping that the problem will go away by itself, hoping that the deflationary spiral in T&C's will somehow not affect them, hoping that the economy will magically improve and hoping that companies will automatically give employees good T&C without having to fight for it. Unfortunately hope is never a good strategy...

p.s. I would not go so far as to say "never listen to old people." There is a lot of timeless knowledge that we can learn from, as some things like airmanship and the laws of aerodynamics will never change. Unfortunately when it comes to very fluid things like the economy, international treaties, government regulations (FTL's) these 'wisdoms' can quickly become obsolete traps. What worked for one generation will perhaps not work for the next generation.

Last edited by Bokkenrijder; 26th Oct 2014 at 12:55.
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Old 26th Oct 2014, 13:17
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
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p.s. I would not go so far as to say "never listen to old people." There is a lot of timeless knowledge that we can learn from, as some things like airmanship and the laws of aerodynamics will never change. Unfortunately when it comes to very fluid things like the economy, international treaties, government regulations (FTL's) these 'wisdoms' can quickly become obsolete traps. What worked for one generation will perhaps not work for the next generation.
You're right
I was just talking about in term of advices about things around the job and mostly about how to become a pilot.

I have some retired friends, they were captain etc...but they do not have a clue what is "pay to fly" things. They do not have a clue about the MPL licence.
They do not have a clue about the 25 minutes turn around.
But I agree that we learn a lot when it's about the job itself. Yes for sure ! When I have a question I do not ask a cadet
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Old 26th Oct 2014, 16:00
  #26 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ascot
Posts: 20
Hi everyone,
Many thanks for the comments, although I have been out of Aviation for 6 years I have kept an eye on the industry and am aware that it has changed and not for the better. Having tried to get alternative employment in many different industries in the past few years I can assure you all that degradation in T and C's is not just confined to Aviation. In fact I am shocked at the huge rise in minimum wage/casual and zero hour/ temporary contracts. I have also done some pretty jobs for large public companies that have had total disrespect for people. This is why I am starting to miss flying because it must surely be better than what I am doing at the moment.
However my concern is the fact I am 51 and not flown for 6 years. Although I am confident I have the skills and experience to get back to where I was it could take a little longer and would require an understanding and patient employer. I don't think I would find such an employer nowadays and so I think it would be best to forget the Airlines and maybe concentrate on GA or corporate.
I think maybe I will renew my Instrument rating before the 7 year limit and then explore different forms of flying away from the Airlines.
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Old 26th Oct 2014, 21:01
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Asia
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The corporate seems the best option IMO.
I dont know this field, but what I can see from others friends, in the corporate world, the employers are more interested in mature experienced pilots than a young kid.

Keep us posted ! and wish you the best !
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Old 27th Oct 2014, 04:24
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 76
T & C are degrading all over the place it's not just aviation.
People that have only worked in Aviation will always complain.
The industry I used to work in has always had rent to pay to to work. You were self employed but still had to buy company uniform, how does that work? I was lucky and got with a good company but still had to take a 20% pay cut. I had been at my company for 7 years, there answer was don't like it leave. My wife left her company for a while to do something else decided to go back as she never hated it just wanted time out. Ok salary was same but holidays had been cut across the board and you are not allowed to take more than 2 weeks in a row off. Her old boss moans and says not the same bla bla bla.
If you look at corporate world no one stays in a company for more than a few years, not like the old days were they would look after you the longer you stayed. Banking has gone down. My mate started at JP Morgan on 45k a year plus rent paid for first year as an intern 10 years ago!!!! Now they don't get anywhere near that. Throw in inflation and you can see how much better off he was.
I actually don't just think it's the LCC degrading the industry. What about the big boys BA, Lufthansa etc. you have to start them at a young age or there is no point. I think it's very backward that say a guy has 10 years exp with company A as First Officer then decides to apply for company B as First Officer and has to take a huge pay cut, what because of some training to get upto to company SOPs and loyalty.
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Old 27th Oct 2014, 14:36
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: by the seaside
Age: 70
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Good luck Jaydubya...dispite the negative comments it's always been the same...
I had it hard then easy.....but it's often how much you are prepared to put into it.
Chatted to a FR skipper who as taking home the same as me when I was his age....but having double the time off...I was Rhs DC10.. Legacy...
He did one of those smooth descents followed by a landing which seems to be old school ....lift dumpers lowering the aircraft onto the Tarmac...and he didn't need to stand on the brakes....
Although some forms of private aviation are more demanding you can't beat being paid for something you enjoy doing.
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Old 27th Oct 2014, 17:27
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
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I actually don't just think it's the LCC degrading the industry. What about the big boys BA, Lufthansa etc.
hum.... don't agree.
If majors cut the T and C it is because of the LCC. The Majors have to lower their conditions to be in competition against the LCC.
It was exactly what Air France recently explained...
It is not normal to pay a flight less expensive than the cab.
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Old 27th Oct 2014, 22:22
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: EU
Age: 43
Posts: 751
Jaydubya,

I remember Bokkenrijder in Easyjet. Definitely a half glass empty chap, take from that what you will.......

I still enjoy the life, it's not perfect but theN what is? I have something to compare it with too as I have worked in other industries and I think we have it pretty good.

Best of luck with whatever happens.
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 08:31
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
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Funny how the happy guys in LCCs like to insult the guys who see the wood for the trees. Those people in LCCs who are content are, in my experience, either new, naive or of weak mentality and pathetically grateful for every crumb thrown their way. It is the last of these three types that play lackey to the management and undermine the rest of the pilots, and are the line pilots most complicit in the slide in conditions.

I think Bokken has said his piece in a very reasonable manner. This is not the industry it was ten years ago, let alone 20 or 30. If you have an alternative method of earning a comparable amount (and do check the latest figures - FR skippers now on a basic of 30-odd K - trainee train drivers earn more), then keep it and just fly for fun on your weekends.
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 09:16
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: EU
Age: 43
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Aluminium shuffler, I assume you are referring to me. Naive, new and mentally weak. You've nailed me, got me spot on.

Anyway I merely pointed out my experience of Bokkenrijder, he on the other hand insulted a whole nation...

Hugs and kisses from a reasonably happy LCC driver.

Edited to add I can see the wood from the trees, hence my contentment. I would suggest you check out the global economy and then perhaps you too will see the wood from the trees.
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 13:19
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
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The global economy is bad, but nowhere near bad enough to reduce salaries in LCCs to 1/3 of where they should be, to justify sending folk to bases at the other end of a continent when slots are available in or near where people ant to be, to be scaling back on already thin engineering, to be skimping on basic training, to be operating P2F schemes and operating with intimidating cultures. So, if you say you are happy in such companies, then yes, you are naive or weak.

As for insulting Aussies, I flew with some really great lads from Oz, but a fair few of them were incredibly arrogant, banging on again and again about the South China Seas and openly stating that only Aussie licences were worth the paper they're printed on. A lot of them had a very big chip on their shoulder about the 80's strikes and British pilots in particular, even towards those who started flying in the late 90s and early 2000s, and it was three Aussies who sold out all the FOs in Ezy a few years back. So, are all Aussies bad? Of course not. But some of them, just like any nationality or group, are due criticism, given how keen they are to slag others. I agree you can't judge a person by their nationality, and that slagging a whole country is not right, but Bok was right in everything he said.

Last edited by Aluminium shuffler; 28th Oct 2014 at 13:35.
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 15:16
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Aluminium Shuffler I don't know where you get your info from. You can't be LCC or the company I work for. The salary you quote sounds ludicrous. The LCC aren't badly paid compared to the legacy cariers; I'd put my salary and T&C up against BS SH anyday. It's just what you want out of the company. I'd be happy to work for BA but then I haven't applied as I'm happy where I am.

And as for blaming 3 Aussies for selling all the ezy FO's out a few years back, well you're talking out of the back of your head.

By the way I think I work for the same outfit as Phensocks and I'm not naive, new or mentally weak either. Hugs and Kisses to you to Phensocks. That makes two happy LCC drivers.
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 20:10
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 732
I agree the EU LCC capain salary of Eu45k/35k is ridiculous, but it's quite correct. That is the reality of what LCCs are doing. As for the sell out - I was there when it happened, and three guys who had been co-opted onto the BALPA CC because they had the management worried because they had the membership's ear with a lot of good ideas and tough talk suddenly became pussycats when they became the heads of the council. They pushed through a deal that lost all the FOs a lot of flight pay and all of their loyalty bonus, a combined 14k gross for 5-yr FOs, and two weeks leave, without a ballot, and were suddenly promoted to TRE and then all TREs got a 25% rise. Hmm...
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Old 29th Oct 2014, 03:34
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Jaydubya - check PMs.
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Old 29th Oct 2014, 06:06
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: FL450
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Please do not see Corporate as a poor mans alternative to airline flying. With no Corporate experience and being out of aviation for 6 years you will also have a very tough time convincing someone to take you on. It is all about being current, with hours on type if you want to walk into a job.

Having also flown in OZ with Ozzies I can just thank my lucky stars that that is an experience I would not wish to repeat.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 12:25
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Asia
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With no Corporate experience and being out of aviation for 6 years you will also have a very tough time convincing someone to take you on
true but I would add that in corporate world it's mostly who you know than what you know. Most of friends I know, get into this world by knowing the right person. As it's a smaller world, you'd better hire someone in who you trust and know.
about the skills...it always come with time as long as you're standard.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 19:28
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here, there, everywhere
Age: 42
Posts: 120
This industry has changed, permanently, from the good ol days of the 70's-80's.
For better or worse, we as pilots have to accept that. As an old boss said to me, there is the door. We fly because we love flying. I agree the money is/was good and useful, but I have flown some junkers in the Dark Continent, just for the fun of flying.
This is what the bean counters have woken up to. We will fly, because we love flying. They will abuse that love as much as they can. No one willingly spends the '000's of on a career they hate! Unless you are a 20 something with the bank of M&D, it is very hard to (re)-enter the industry.

Some have mentioned the corporate world. Bloody good fun, but you have to think outside the airline mentality, as once the wheels are up, you can generally be on your own until returning to base.
I have done the airline thing. It was Shit. Decreasing T&C's, more pressure from mgt to save 2 kgs of fuel per sector, faster turn around's, lack of family life..........the list goes on.
I now fly turbo props. Happy as a pig in poo.
EU LCC capain salary of Eu45k/35k is ridiculous,
It is, but they accepted it!
I earn more than the higher figure.
For flying a turbo prop with 10 seats.
The reason is that I had 2000 hrs experience operating all over the world in similar aircraft. That was what the company wanted. We require 1000 hrs min for captain, however the amount of babies, with wet licenses, who cant read adverts, that apply is staggering.
We find co-pilots on the recommendation's of our Captains, Friends, word of mouth etc

If a CV from a 747 Captain came across my desk, there is a very good chance I would call him for a chat.
If a CV from a OAT/CTC baby came across my desk, it would keep going to the round filing box (bin)

Until EASA land has a FAA change of requirements (1500 hrs etc), the industry will stay as it is. And that took total hull loss and A SINGLE govt to get it changed.
Anyway, must go, Canary Islands for the week end, toodle-pip!
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