Norwegian A320neo order
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Alexander De Meerkat
While having little insight into the T&C at Whizz or Aegean one can guess that the deal it likely to be less favorable than EZY and having the same equipment your comparison is valid, Norwegian is another matter, very few of the EZY pilots are likely to have flown the B737 in the last few years and so jumping ship into a company that by circumstances of the huge training burden of a rapid expansion is unlikely.
The fact of the matter is that when it is time for Norwegian to introduce the A320 I have no doubts that Norwegian will have the the deal in place to attract pilots from other airlines and only then can we make a valid comparison between the T&C's at Norwegian and EZY when pilots vote with their feet ( or don't).
The airline market is changing, EZY were the quality end of the LoCo market with RYR firmly holding the rock bottom of the market, things are changing with RYR realizing that they need to treat the customers better to attract the people who are willing to spend a little more, the problem for EZY is that RYR are aiming to squeez the bottom end of the EZY customer base and Norwegian are squeezing the top end with a superior product at a comparable price.........interesting times ahead !
The fact of the matter is that when it is time for Norwegian to introduce the A320 I have no doubts that Norwegian will have the the deal in place to attract pilots from other airlines and only then can we make a valid comparison between the T&C's at Norwegian and EZY when pilots vote with their feet ( or don't).
The airline market is changing, EZY were the quality end of the LoCo market with RYR firmly holding the rock bottom of the market, things are changing with RYR realizing that they need to treat the customers better to attract the people who are willing to spend a little more, the problem for EZY is that RYR are aiming to squeez the bottom end of the EZY customer base and Norwegian are squeezing the top end with a superior product at a comparable price.........interesting times ahead !
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I think the issue people have with Norwegian is one of confidence. By which I mean that in the sphere of short haul, they were late to the party. Easy have been snaffling the best slots at prime airports for a lot longer than Norwegian and will defend their position robustly. Meanwhile on long haul, they are experimenting with a brand new (somewhat problematic) aircraft type on new routes, many of which have been tried before and failed. Likewise, long haul carriers will be defending their position, especially across the Atlantic.
Perhaps now is their time and it will be a roaring success. Perhaps it will tick over well enough to keep it viable long term. Perhaps it will end in a nasty mess next year. I think this is why nobody will leave a successful, established airline for Norwegian, no matter what the contract on offer. In short, it is an unproven business model at the present time.
This is exactly why nobody who wants to be based in London would join Norwegian. If they decided it wasn't worth competing with easy at LGW then they would be the next bunch of people to be forcibly relocated onto whatever contract was on offer at the time. Just like Ryanair.
Perhaps now is their time and it will be a roaring success. Perhaps it will tick over well enough to keep it viable long term. Perhaps it will end in a nasty mess next year. I think this is why nobody will leave a successful, established airline for Norwegian, no matter what the contract on offer. In short, it is an unproven business model at the present time.
Let's see what happens when Norwegian put Airbus into Gatwick and tells all the Boeing drivers based there to go and be rebased to Spain.
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Judging by the success (thus far) of the NAS LGW base, and the long-haul plans etc, I think they are there for the long term.
Which type is utilised at the base when/if NAS actually take delivery of the NEOS for the use of "Norwegian Air Shuttle" ( as opposed to some other yet to be created carrier, or indeed a new wholly owned leasing company ) shouldn't result in peeps being turfed out, as the new airframes will possibly come with the usual "freebie" type ratings routinely offered by manufacturers.
Of greater concern is exactly what the "permanent" contract will look like ( & with
whom, as rumours suggest the one to be offered in HEL will still be through an agency ) and how generous it will be in comparison to the current "contract" one.
Feeling amongst the troops is that HEL & LGW will be competitive, but Spanish based pilots should brace themselves for a Vuelingisation of T's& C's. With the planned expansion an attempt to offer conditions like that will be a little brave, but when you look at the woeful Long Haul contract, anything is possible both good & bad.
From March, we will have the 1st indication once we see the HEL offer. We are all watching with great interest.
Which type is utilised at the base when/if NAS actually take delivery of the NEOS for the use of "Norwegian Air Shuttle" ( as opposed to some other yet to be created carrier, or indeed a new wholly owned leasing company ) shouldn't result in peeps being turfed out, as the new airframes will possibly come with the usual "freebie" type ratings routinely offered by manufacturers.
Of greater concern is exactly what the "permanent" contract will look like ( & with
whom, as rumours suggest the one to be offered in HEL will still be through an agency ) and how generous it will be in comparison to the current "contract" one.
Feeling amongst the troops is that HEL & LGW will be competitive, but Spanish based pilots should brace themselves for a Vuelingisation of T's& C's. With the planned expansion an attempt to offer conditions like that will be a little brave, but when you look at the woeful Long Haul contract, anything is possible both good & bad.
From March, we will have the 1st indication once we see the HEL offer. We are all watching with great interest.
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In short, it is an unproven business model at the present time.
I like to see bold moves in the industry, it's been lacking for a while now. I hope they succeed, it'll bring a bowl of fresh air to the rather bleak pilot employment in Europe right now.
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Norwegian dont seem to be playing the ezy/ryr game of flooding the market with cadets either
Ezy arent in the same ball park as Norwegian on most fronts Integrity of the future of the industry is the big one.
Piling cadets in with no regard to the future ... thats hardly the sign of a high quality operator
Ezy arent in the same ball park as Norwegian on most fronts Integrity of the future of the industry is the big one.
Piling cadets in with no regard to the future ... thats hardly the sign of a high quality operator
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LPL is the latest base rumour... I thought MAN would've been better myself.
Apparently, RYR are wet leasing for the summer schedule as they've lost so many Pilots to NAS. Anyone care to confirm/refute this?
Apparently, RYR are wet leasing for the summer schedule as they've lost so many Pilots to NAS. Anyone care to confirm/refute this?
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Dick,
Your entire post effectively states that Norweigan's costs are higher than other airline's. The wifi must be a big draw but cannot come cheap and most locos run a single fleet for a very good reason. You also say that the cabin crew aren't particularly fussed about selling on-board whereas other airlines consider this to be an important revenue stream.
It seems like a lovely airline with an excellent service and terribly smart looking pilots
(I'll ignore that somewhat ridiculous comment). Whether that's enough to compete with the other locos who have been at this game for a little longer and have their costs under tight control in this game of wafer thin margins, remains to be seen. Hence the uncertainly.
Your entire post effectively states that Norweigan's costs are higher than other airline's. The wifi must be a big draw but cannot come cheap and most locos run a single fleet for a very good reason. You also say that the cabin crew aren't particularly fussed about selling on-board whereas other airlines consider this to be an important revenue stream.
It seems like a lovely airline with an excellent service and terribly smart looking pilots
(I'll ignore that somewhat ridiculous comment). Whether that's enough to compete with the other locos who have been at this game for a little longer and have their costs under tight control in this game of wafer thin margins, remains to be seen. Hence the uncertainly.
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WHYEYEMAN
I think you are missing the point with the in flight sales revinue stream
The Scandinavians don't like high pressure sales techniques, infact it is the worst way to sell to the type of Scandinavian who has the most to spend ! ( it is also the worst way to sell to me !)
Norwegian has gone down the road of offering high class refreshments delivered promptly to the passengers and that is what the passengers seem to like, rather than what they see as the bullying tactics of RYR ( and to a lesser extent EZY) that just makes them shut their wallets.
It is all about knowing what the your passengers want from a flight over and above the safe and on time performance.
The Scandinavians don't like high pressure sales techniques, infact it is the worst way to sell to the type of Scandinavian who has the most to spend ! ( it is also the worst way to sell to me !)
Norwegian has gone down the road of offering high class refreshments delivered promptly to the passengers and that is what the passengers seem to like, rather than what they see as the bullying tactics of RYR ( and to a lesser extent EZY) that just makes them shut their wallets.
It is all about knowing what the your passengers want from a flight over and above the safe and on time performance.
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Airline pilots walking round in anoraks...cabin crew looking less than imaculate.... may seem off topic to some but it says it all really about the values and gives insight into the stature of some airlines and how they are comfortable portraying their employees, and how some airlines obviously see the career of pilot and cabin crew in the professional ladder in europe.
The fact its seen as unimportant in some quarters of the crews gives an insight to the level of indoctrination and conditioning that has taken place. Especially in UK and Irl with the two big locos
Getting back on topic, hopefully Norwegian continue on their current plan and bring the airbuses in and sooner rather than later. And manage to put both ryr and ezy on the back foot. This can only be good for the european industry as a whole. Its clear to see ryr are taking notice of the threat
there is a place for a loco in europe there obviously is and hopefully Norwegian lead the way forward in europe take centre stage and have such a presence they can somehow stall the race to the bottom led by the blue and orange army and play an imortant part in lifting the profession and stature back where it should be. Not where the accountant cynically driven business plans are looking to drive it to.
My hope is that NAS can show it isnt impossible to operate safely with a quality service and to make profits without having to dumb it all down.
From where im looking NAS are the breath of fresh air it all needs. For sure MOL has changed tack regarding customer relations because he can obviously see what is coming. For all his faults he isnt lacking intelligence. Im sure ezy are making plans to survive the NAS expansion too. If they arent then they should be
I too watch with interest. Over the last two years it has been very noticeable how there has been an increasing number of portraits looking down from the fins of 73s all over europe. For me it has been warming to see.
The fact its seen as unimportant in some quarters of the crews gives an insight to the level of indoctrination and conditioning that has taken place. Especially in UK and Irl with the two big locos
Getting back on topic, hopefully Norwegian continue on their current plan and bring the airbuses in and sooner rather than later. And manage to put both ryr and ezy on the back foot. This can only be good for the european industry as a whole. Its clear to see ryr are taking notice of the threat
there is a place for a loco in europe there obviously is and hopefully Norwegian lead the way forward in europe take centre stage and have such a presence they can somehow stall the race to the bottom led by the blue and orange army and play an imortant part in lifting the profession and stature back where it should be. Not where the accountant cynically driven business plans are looking to drive it to.
My hope is that NAS can show it isnt impossible to operate safely with a quality service and to make profits without having to dumb it all down.
From where im looking NAS are the breath of fresh air it all needs. For sure MOL has changed tack regarding customer relations because he can obviously see what is coming. For all his faults he isnt lacking intelligence. Im sure ezy are making plans to survive the NAS expansion too. If they arent then they should be
I too watch with interest. Over the last two years it has been very noticeable how there has been an increasing number of portraits looking down from the fins of 73s all over europe. For me it has been warming to see.
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As any of you based in Gatwick may know, the Norwegian crewroom is just opposite easyJet's. I would have to agree that easyJet's uniforms are rubbish compared to Norwegian's. The NAS crews look really well turned out in smart, attractive uniforms and it is absolutely true that easyJet pilots are roaming around in plastic jackets - I wore one only yesterday myself! And yes, Norwegian have posh leather seats and wi-fi (albeit one that does not work very well). The problem they are facing is that their costs are out of control. For example, that little white bump on their 737 fuselage with all the wi-fi gubbins in it would cost around 1% in a fuel penalty - that is a catastrophic loss for any airline given the margins. We have looked at the wi-fi issue and the basic problem we face is that wi-fi technology around Europe is not advanced enough to provide a credible in-flight service, as NAS are experiencing. What we will not do is take on naff technology that puts an intolerable burden on our fuel costs. NAS may indeed be having a successful long haul entry from Gatwick, but easyJet does not care about that. The bottom line is that NAS are haemorrhaging money at a rate that is not sustainable when they have to take on established players like easyJet and Ryanair. They are absolutely cut throat with their employees and they are going to have enormous difficulty attracting the necessary experienced pilots to run their Airbus operation. By that I am not talking about 200 hour wonder-kids desperate to spend more of their parents' money on an Airbus rating and line training. I am talking about TREs and the like who currently have good jobs in airlines such as easyJet, Thomas Cook, Monarch etc. Why on earth would they leave a comfy existence and go to a company who will pay them less money, offer less security and potentially move them at a moment's base to some Viking land they do not want to live in? They would have to offer a massive financial inducement to go, and I do not see that happening. Again, even if they did, the only people who would risk it are people with less than 5 years to go and who could take the short term gain against the long term uncertainty. They are a high risk company and anyone leaving the likes of easyJet to join them would be making a huge step into the unknown. The bottom line is that they are making a massive expansion at a time when all the other big players are being more cautious. Time will tell who is right, but I do not see it ending well.
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Wifi technology
You are correct there is a fuel penalty for the wifi hump, as for naff technology, well its not perfect, but for e-mail, Facebook which according to the providers data logging thats what most use it for its just fine, yes you can get outages due I'm told tail blanking and some geo-location that are prohibited, but most of the time it works OK and it is free!!! more importantly customers love it.
I have used both FaceTime and Skype (whilst positioning) and it was acceptable and like most things the tech is getting better all the time, at the moment its one of Norwegian's USP
I have no doubt that EZY management are feeding the haemorrhaging money line, just has NAS management are telling us LGW is exceeding all expectations, one thing is for sure it's given easyJet a wake up call at LGW judging by easyJets revamping in LGW and Monarch haven't a clue whats hit them on the Canary Isle routes out of LGW
On costs CAPA quotes easyJet & Norwegian as neck and neck as indeed does Norwegians investor relations info (like easyJet it a Publicly quoted company)
Long haul for now is not on easyJets radar, but for Norwegian its an integral part of the game plan with inbound traffic feeding L/H out of LGW, remember that unlike other LoCo's you can already book through tickets to destinations not already served by direct flights hub-ing through OSL/CPH/ARN/LGW
easyJets product is fine, Ryanair does what it says on the tin and is probably a bigger threat to easyJet as it revamps its product, Monarch is very mixed and OTP is woeful, Thomson is excellent and Jet2 is good if your on a 738, but i have yet to get off any of the above and think well that was better than Norwegian, Thomson is closest, so its not just about uniforms and yes costs are king, time will tell.
You are correct there is a fuel penalty for the wifi hump, as for naff technology, well its not perfect, but for e-mail, Facebook which according to the providers data logging thats what most use it for its just fine, yes you can get outages due I'm told tail blanking and some geo-location that are prohibited, but most of the time it works OK and it is free!!! more importantly customers love it.
I have used both FaceTime and Skype (whilst positioning) and it was acceptable and like most things the tech is getting better all the time, at the moment its one of Norwegian's USP
I have no doubt that EZY management are feeding the haemorrhaging money line, just has NAS management are telling us LGW is exceeding all expectations, one thing is for sure it's given easyJet a wake up call at LGW judging by easyJets revamping in LGW and Monarch haven't a clue whats hit them on the Canary Isle routes out of LGW
On costs CAPA quotes easyJet & Norwegian as neck and neck as indeed does Norwegians investor relations info (like easyJet it a Publicly quoted company)
Long haul for now is not on easyJets radar, but for Norwegian its an integral part of the game plan with inbound traffic feeding L/H out of LGW, remember that unlike other LoCo's you can already book through tickets to destinations not already served by direct flights hub-ing through OSL/CPH/ARN/LGW
easyJets product is fine, Ryanair does what it says on the tin and is probably a bigger threat to easyJet as it revamps its product, Monarch is very mixed and OTP is woeful, Thomson is excellent and Jet2 is good if your on a 738, but i have yet to get off any of the above and think well that was better than Norwegian, Thomson is closest, so its not just about uniforms and yes costs are king, time will tell.
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ADM my credit to you, your passion for your current employer is admirable. And that is said with absolute genuine sentiment from one professional to another.
I agree time will tell. However my point is that the whole thing needs a shake up it needs something new something different a role it looks like NAS are playing with integrity humility and intelligence.
The whole thing needs the baton taking off MOL as he has been leading the way for long enough now, and whether you like to agree or mot ezy have been operating within his slipstream albiet without his rough edges.
The general direction hasnt been good for the crews either side of the flightdeck doors. Even considering the financial state these accountancy experts and bankers have managed to get just about the whole of Europe into. It is clear to see the general direction has been downwards for the crews which also has an obvious effect knock on effect on other higher quality operators
The 200 hour wonder kids you refer to, well both ezy and ryr have been pushing these in extraordinarily large numbers into the european market now for long enough, leaving experienced guys out on a limb when their own operators have been pushed out of business by the very expansions of ryr and ezy.
I understand your point about tre's exactly and I do agree with your angle on that one. However the 200 hour wonder kids you refer to are, as far as I can see, are recruited by your company in the similar sort of volume as ryr.
Time will tell, hopefully NAS do utilise new hire cadets as part of their expansion plan but dont blatantly abuse this stream of new pilots. I think its fair to say most people I personally speak to during my work, do not appreciate the effect ryr's aggressive modus operandi is having on the wider industry. Unfortunately ezy have done precious little to address this slide, merely sat in ryr's slipstream trying to keep business good by offering something slightly higher quality.
Not personal from me to any individual nor even an operator id hate to think of NAS expansion costing ezy or ryr or anybody else to lose their job. I am personally willing NAS and I not employed by them, I just feel they maybe a last chance of some humility returning and also a distancing from this dumbing down that the locos seem intent on.
Lots of airbuses and boeings in europe hitting ryr and ezy head on cannot be a bad thing.
I agree time will tell. However my point is that the whole thing needs a shake up it needs something new something different a role it looks like NAS are playing with integrity humility and intelligence.
The whole thing needs the baton taking off MOL as he has been leading the way for long enough now, and whether you like to agree or mot ezy have been operating within his slipstream albiet without his rough edges.
The general direction hasnt been good for the crews either side of the flightdeck doors. Even considering the financial state these accountancy experts and bankers have managed to get just about the whole of Europe into. It is clear to see the general direction has been downwards for the crews which also has an obvious effect knock on effect on other higher quality operators
The 200 hour wonder kids you refer to, well both ezy and ryr have been pushing these in extraordinarily large numbers into the european market now for long enough, leaving experienced guys out on a limb when their own operators have been pushed out of business by the very expansions of ryr and ezy.
I understand your point about tre's exactly and I do agree with your angle on that one. However the 200 hour wonder kids you refer to are, as far as I can see, are recruited by your company in the similar sort of volume as ryr.
Time will tell, hopefully NAS do utilise new hire cadets as part of their expansion plan but dont blatantly abuse this stream of new pilots. I think its fair to say most people I personally speak to during my work, do not appreciate the effect ryr's aggressive modus operandi is having on the wider industry. Unfortunately ezy have done precious little to address this slide, merely sat in ryr's slipstream trying to keep business good by offering something slightly higher quality.
Not personal from me to any individual nor even an operator id hate to think of NAS expansion costing ezy or ryr or anybody else to lose their job. I am personally willing NAS and I not employed by them, I just feel they maybe a last chance of some humility returning and also a distancing from this dumbing down that the locos seem intent on.
Lots of airbuses and boeings in europe hitting ryr and ezy head on cannot be a bad thing.
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Three Lions 
That is the way I understand (or hope!) this operator plans the next step. Indeed as previously mentioned, it's got to pour crap load of money to get there, and the margins may be incredibly thin for a long time. But bringing decent employment conditions and respect (maybe that's the word that was lost long time ago to some locos..), they might attract a crowd who actually wants to make the move for long term prospects.
A even-footed company-employee environment? Does this still exist?
That is the way I understand (or hope!) this operator plans the next step. Indeed as previously mentioned, it's got to pour crap load of money to get there, and the margins may be incredibly thin for a long time. But bringing decent employment conditions and respect (maybe that's the word that was lost long time ago to some locos..), they might attract a crowd who actually wants to make the move for long term prospects.
A even-footed company-employee environment? Does this still exist?
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Alexander De Meerkat
Please can you tell me were you find the information about NAS haemorrhaging money as you say ?
A bit of trawling the Internet seems to show all the graphs going on the correct direction, perhaps you would care to illuminate us as to the basis for your opinion ?
A bit of trawling the Internet seems to show all the graphs going on the correct direction, perhaps you would care to illuminate us as to the basis for your opinion ?
Having read a few articles that interviews the Norwegian CEO I can't help feel he's slightly MOLesk in his approach to things. He appears fairly ruthless, knows what he wants and how to get it. For this reason, as an ezy fo, I certainly think both Norwegian and Vueling are big threats to our profitability in the next few years.
Even if they do fall by the way side, which I'm not convinced they will, certainly not Vueling with IAG's backing, they will provide competition and reduce margins. I think they may have bitten off more then they can chew with the long haul, at least to start with. Such high utilisation rates of a brand new aircraft were bound to run into trouble. Lots of very delayed flights and upset passengers isn't great for retaining customers.
Flexicrew aside, once on a perm contract at ezy it is a pretty good place to be. I would certainly not, at this stage, consider leaving here for Norwegian, Vueling or Wizzair.
Even if they do fall by the way side, which I'm not convinced they will, certainly not Vueling with IAG's backing, they will provide competition and reduce margins. I think they may have bitten off more then they can chew with the long haul, at least to start with. Such high utilisation rates of a brand new aircraft were bound to run into trouble. Lots of very delayed flights and upset passengers isn't great for retaining customers.
Flexicrew aside, once on a perm contract at ezy it is a pretty good place to be. I would certainly not, at this stage, consider leaving here for Norwegian, Vueling or Wizzair.
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From a recent article with the Norwegian CEO
Full article here - How are Norwegian Air Shuttle's low-cost US flights financially possible? | Business | The Guardian
He claims politicians have yet to wake up to the opportunities that cheap air travel can bring: he thinks the numbers of incoming tourists add up to millions of jobs to be created in Europe. That far outweighs any race to the bottom in a few thousand airline employees' jobs, he said. "If I was a politician, I wouldn't give a **** about the airline side." In Europe, he said: "We've exported all our industry to the far east. At least we have a very good museum to show them, they will have to come spend money in our museum.
Full article here - How are Norwegian Air Shuttle's low-cost US flights financially possible? | Business | The Guardian
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Norwegian Spain
Regarding Norwegian´s Spanish bases I understand that many Vueling pilots are applying and lining up to go to Norwegian, when the 320`s arrive.
As Vueling pilots are currently quite low paid, with between 11,000 and 14,000 Euro base pay plus variable hour quite indecent. Many Vueling FO´s are unhappy with their low pay.
Looks like Norwegian has a number of A 320 experienced Type Rated local Spanish pilots ready to go for Spain.
As Vueling pilots are currently quite low paid, with between 11,000 and 14,000 Euro base pay plus variable hour quite indecent. Many Vueling FO´s are unhappy with their low pay.
Looks like Norwegian has a number of A 320 experienced Type Rated local Spanish pilots ready to go for Spain.
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As Vueling pilots are currently quite low paid, with between 11,000 and 14,000 Euro base pay plus variable hour quite indecent. Many Vueling FO´s are unhappy with their low pay.