easyJet Lisbon pilots announcing 5 days of strike
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@FANS,
Nope, handflying skills are useless, inexperienced 250 hr super star airline f/o's could handle this no problem and know when to say enough?
http://www.pprune.org/spectators-bal...ham-today.html
These are 2 of the newest aircraft types being flown and very automated. The first one is a 777, same type as Asiana in SFO, no? (flown by people with no other experience but airliner "button pushing"), the second is the same type as the Colgan KBUF crash, no? (Also piloted by low time direct airline crew member). There are 2 very direct examples of how experience, saves lives!!
Nope, handflying skills are useless, inexperienced 250 hr super star airline f/o's could handle this no problem and know when to say enough?
http://www.pprune.org/spectators-bal...ham-today.html
These are 2 of the newest aircraft types being flown and very automated. The first one is a 777, same type as Asiana in SFO, no? (flown by people with no other experience but airliner "button pushing"), the second is the same type as the Colgan KBUF crash, no? (Also piloted by low time direct airline crew member). There are 2 very direct examples of how experience, saves lives!!
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justagiglio77 - given that you have never flown, and are never likely to fly, either a Boeing or an Airbus, I am not sure you are really in a position to criticise any of their pilots. Going around from unstable approaches is a key skill of any commercial airline pilot, and anyone who does so is commended in my airline rather than criticised. I realise in the 'can do' world of GA where you live and dwell (which coincidentally has a 5 times greater accident rate than commercial aviation) that is not how things work. Nonetheless, we can be assured you are a very talented chap, because you have told us so. The stats are very interesting:
Accident statistics
Accident statistics
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Think we are veering away from the point here.
I am guessing LIS based pilots either were
A - Portugese & happy to find a job at home
B - Chose the base to get a quick command
C - got sent there when the (very- for employees ) lucrative MAD base was closed.
Correct me if I am wrong, but, in any case, life in LIS is not so cheap (certainly the tax bill) so, it is normal that these guys want to be renumerated on a similar level to other bases. . . so much for 1 happy family
I hope other bases do what they (legally ) can to help them achieve parity with those doing the same job for the same company. . . END OF.
I am guessing LIS based pilots either were
A - Portugese & happy to find a job at home
B - Chose the base to get a quick command
C - got sent there when the (very- for employees ) lucrative MAD base was closed.
Correct me if I am wrong, but, in any case, life in LIS is not so cheap (certainly the tax bill) so, it is normal that these guys want to be renumerated on a similar level to other bases. . . so much for 1 happy family
I hope other bases do what they (legally ) can to help them achieve parity with those doing the same job for the same company. . . END OF.
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Jig - Asiana pilots were experienced, as were the Birmingham Al A300 guys, the TK AMS Capt and observer, the Colgan, SW excursions and nosewheel guys, the American Cali and the Atlas guys who landed at the wrong airport. Stop flogging a dead horse.
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Playstation is correct, however shuffler, pushing buttons and cruising for hours and hours while reading the newspaper or eating your crew meal is NOT experience! All the examples I mentioned were these types of crews, inexperienced in basic skills!
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justagigolo77,
honestly, I pretty much agree/respect all the things you are saying, but. . .wrong thread mate
I think it is important to stay " on topic", this is a rather serious thread related to divide & conquer, which you possibly know (even from a distance) is what is screwing this profession for anyone working in Europe.. . . even if you include the "mighty" Lufthansa (via Eurowings)
Crew experience/competency are a whole other thread, but, respectfully, not on this one . Ta
honestly, I pretty much agree/respect all the things you are saying, but. . .wrong thread mate
I think it is important to stay " on topic", this is a rather serious thread related to divide & conquer, which you possibly know (even from a distance) is what is screwing this profession for anyone working in Europe.. . . even if you include the "mighty" Lufthansa (via Eurowings)Crew experience/competency are a whole other thread, but, respectfully, not on this one . Ta
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Yes I do agree Capt, my apologies. The thread did morph and I'm sure that's the reason another thread was started.
On Topic, there will be a lot more said if we see a large pilot group roll over and bend over the barrel with the reasoning "well if I don't, someone else will". That is the most ludicrous justification for accepting any reduced conditions. Stick together, no doubt, but this should have never happened in the first place had selfish pilots and greedy companies not allowed it to happen.
On Topic, there will be a lot more said if we see a large pilot group roll over and bend over the barrel with the reasoning "well if I don't, someone else will". That is the most ludicrous justification for accepting any reduced conditions. Stick together, no doubt, but this should have never happened in the first place had selfish pilots and greedy companies not allowed it to happen.
As far as the company were concerned LIS was started and always intended as a lower cost base. All the employees and outsiders in the know knew that. Some opted for all sorts of reasons to take the job at LIS in full knowlegde of the situation/contract. Once the positions were filled the company had their wish.
There is no real justification now in demanding equality with other bases. By all means fight like everyone else to improve T&C but don't expect parity with the other countries now. Notwithstanding that both sides have to honour the signed contracts. If the company are breaking any part of the contract I can understand the strike call; if not I cannot see the justification for a strike. The only thing that will improve the T&C now are supply and demand; if there are no pilots willing to take the jobs in LIS as the need arises the offer will improve.
There is no real justification now in demanding equality with other bases. By all means fight like everyone else to improve T&C but don't expect parity with the other countries now. Notwithstanding that both sides have to honour the signed contracts. If the company are breaking any part of the contract I can understand the strike call; if not I cannot see the justification for a strike. The only thing that will improve the T&C now are supply and demand; if there are no pilots willing to take the jobs in LIS as the need arises the offer will improve.
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Stiglet your post requires me to restrain my anger.
Easyjet, Ryanair, Wizz etc. have CEO's and Management who have been amongst the most manipulative in recent business history, they have exploited loopholes in the laws of different countries within the EU and have entirely disregarded the spirit of the Law. The Airline industry is the only industry which allows for this kind of exploitation.
I do not know the history of Easyjet in Madrid or in Lisbon, but it appears to me that closing the base in Madrid and opening a base in Lisbon was another method of manipulating the EU laws to benefit Easy shareholders and was to the detriment of Pilots and their families who had moved to their base in Madrid. They were then probably offered a take it or leave it offer in Lisbon, which of course they had to take because they need to support their families.
Throughout europe over the last 200 years our grandparents and great grandparents have fought for the right to negotiate with employers in a collective bargaining unit for the best possible terms that we can achieve. In attempting to improve our life and that of our family we have the right to withdraw our Labor within the guidelines of the law. This is a right under all Laws within Europe.
It appears to me that the Pilots based in Lisbon have very ligitimate reasons to strike, they have been coersed into signing an entirely unfair contract, that does not meet company standard.
For better paid colleagues to come in from another base to break the strike is unforgivable. It is equivalent to stealing from your own family.
I know that you talk about supply and demand and I am not a socialist but pure capitalism in it's extreme gives all the money to very few people and leaves everybody else without. We are entitled to use our power to strike as a means to maintain the balance.
Easyjet, Ryanair, Wizz etc. have CEO's and Management who have been amongst the most manipulative in recent business history, they have exploited loopholes in the laws of different countries within the EU and have entirely disregarded the spirit of the Law. The Airline industry is the only industry which allows for this kind of exploitation.
I do not know the history of Easyjet in Madrid or in Lisbon, but it appears to me that closing the base in Madrid and opening a base in Lisbon was another method of manipulating the EU laws to benefit Easy shareholders and was to the detriment of Pilots and their families who had moved to their base in Madrid. They were then probably offered a take it or leave it offer in Lisbon, which of course they had to take because they need to support their families.
Throughout europe over the last 200 years our grandparents and great grandparents have fought for the right to negotiate with employers in a collective bargaining unit for the best possible terms that we can achieve. In attempting to improve our life and that of our family we have the right to withdraw our Labor within the guidelines of the law. This is a right under all Laws within Europe.
It appears to me that the Pilots based in Lisbon have very ligitimate reasons to strike, they have been coersed into signing an entirely unfair contract, that does not meet company standard.
For better paid colleagues to come in from another base to break the strike is unforgivable. It is equivalent to stealing from your own family.
I know that you talk about supply and demand and I am not a socialist but pure capitalism in it's extreme gives all the money to very few people and leaves everybody else without. We are entitled to use our power to strike as a means to maintain the balance.
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Ummm, those that will get called off standby on Christmas morning, to position to Lisbon to operate earlies on Boxing Day are selfish?
Really??
The company don't care, as long as the flights still go. So why should UK pilots pay the price, and be demonised at the same time?
Really??
The company don't care, as long as the flights still go. So why should UK pilots pay the price, and be demonised at the same time?
Xulu - UK pilots are obligued to 'pay the price' as we are constrained by our contracts and UK law regardless of our views on the strike action. To refuse would render us liable to breaking our contracts and therefore in jeopardy of disciplinary action.
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What a wonderful Christmas present you guys are prepared to give your Lisbon based colleagues (who are sticking their necks out far further than the English guys dare), break their ligitimate industrial action.
I personally believe that to do that would be beneath contempt, but look after no.1, I know.....
I personally believe that to do that would be beneath contempt, but look after no.1, I know.....
kunfu panda - companies are here for the benefit of shareholders not pilots. The closeure of MAD was purley a commercial decision. Noone was offerred a 'take it or leave it' offer to move to LIS. When MAD was closed they were offerred choices of bases in the network and I understand a very satisfactory financial package. I don't know how many if any opted for LIS.
Of course we all have the right to negotiate our terms and conditions and, within the law take industrial action. No one was 'coersed' into signing 'an entirely unfair contract' they knew exactly what the contract was and they took it, if they want to renegotiate their contract that is up to them. Whether either side has broken the terms of their contract has yet to be established. As for colleagues to be accussed of strike breaking is unfair as we are constrained by our contracts. If the company ask us to fly we are obligued to comply as, I believe, we are not permitted (under UK law) to take secondary action in support of the LIS pilots. As an employee my loyalties are split between my company and my colleagues and indeed the passengers who untimately pay my wages. I have been in the company a long time and as far as employers go I have found easyJet to be very fair.
Whether you believe any contract is good or bad is subjective as it takes so many personal factors into account. Objectively this contract is generally considered poor in relation to the other easyJet contracts however regarding the industry as a whole none of us are badly paid.
Of course we all have the right to negotiate our terms and conditions and, within the law take industrial action. No one was 'coersed' into signing 'an entirely unfair contract' they knew exactly what the contract was and they took it, if they want to renegotiate their contract that is up to them. Whether either side has broken the terms of their contract has yet to be established. As for colleagues to be accussed of strike breaking is unfair as we are constrained by our contracts. If the company ask us to fly we are obligued to comply as, I believe, we are not permitted (under UK law) to take secondary action in support of the LIS pilots. As an employee my loyalties are split between my company and my colleagues and indeed the passengers who untimately pay my wages. I have been in the company a long time and as far as employers go I have found easyJet to be very fair.
Whether you believe any contract is good or bad is subjective as it takes so many personal factors into account. Objectively this contract is generally considered poor in relation to the other easyJet contracts however regarding the industry as a whole none of us are badly paid.
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Stiglet, I would hope that companies work as a result of cooperation between employee's and shareholders, collective bargaining allows a fair balance to be found between profitability and remuneration; provided that it is done responsibly.
As I acknowledged in my first post, I know nothing about Easyjet or the closure of the base in Madrid. I made an assumption which may well have been wrong.
I do however believe that Pilots generally are excessively reasonable with Managements who stop at nothing to push terms and conditions down "in the race to the bottom". When a group of Pilots reach the point where they really feel they need to take industrial action, then in all probability it is because nothing else has worked.
You are correct- "whether any contract is good or bad is subjective" therefore as a colleague of the Lisbon Pilots you should accept their point of view and acknowledge their right to strike without the intention to interfere with that strike.
By the way your view of secondary action is skewed, if the Lisbon Pilots travelled to England to prevent you from flying out of London then that would be secondary action. In fact, what you and your English colleagues are planning to do is to travel to Lisbon and fly the Aircraft normally flown by the Lisbon based guys..... if you refused to do it, that would not be secondary action in the same way that one person working in one factory would not be carrying out secondary action if he refused to travel to a striking factory to operate the equipment of the striking factory.
I do believe that travelling to Lisbon to operate the aircraft that your striking colleagues normally operate is beneath contempt.
As I acknowledged in my first post, I know nothing about Easyjet or the closure of the base in Madrid. I made an assumption which may well have been wrong.
I do however believe that Pilots generally are excessively reasonable with Managements who stop at nothing to push terms and conditions down "in the race to the bottom". When a group of Pilots reach the point where they really feel they need to take industrial action, then in all probability it is because nothing else has worked.
You are correct- "whether any contract is good or bad is subjective" therefore as a colleague of the Lisbon Pilots you should accept their point of view and acknowledge their right to strike without the intention to interfere with that strike.
By the way your view of secondary action is skewed, if the Lisbon Pilots travelled to England to prevent you from flying out of London then that would be secondary action. In fact, what you and your English colleagues are planning to do is to travel to Lisbon and fly the Aircraft normally flown by the Lisbon based guys..... if you refused to do it, that would not be secondary action in the same way that one person working in one factory would not be carrying out secondary action if he refused to travel to a striking factory to operate the equipment of the striking factory.
I do believe that travelling to Lisbon to operate the aircraft that your striking colleagues normally operate is beneath contempt.
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I'm certain BALPA will have a view on the situation.
However, has anyone checked to see what the legal stance is when considering the following:
LIS based pilots are, presumably, on contracts that are water tight under Portuguese law and English EasyJet pilots are, presumably, on water tight UK contracts.
Would a UK based pilot be taking secondary action if asked to break a Portuguese contract based strike?
I'm certain that easyJet contracts will contain a stipulation that the company "reserves the right to make a pilot work at other network bases" (or such).
However, whether or not they can compel you to break a strike, in a foreign land, may be a point worth asking before accepting or declining such a Christmas morning offer.
However, has anyone checked to see what the legal stance is when considering the following:
LIS based pilots are, presumably, on contracts that are water tight under Portuguese law and English EasyJet pilots are, presumably, on water tight UK contracts.
Would a UK based pilot be taking secondary action if asked to break a Portuguese contract based strike?
I'm certain that easyJet contracts will contain a stipulation that the company "reserves the right to make a pilot work at other network bases" (or such).
However, whether or not they can compel you to break a strike, in a foreign land, may be a point worth asking before accepting or declining such a Christmas morning offer.
kungfu panda - I do accept they have a view and I do acknowledge their right to choose to strike if they wish. Where we differ is on what action I, or other easyJet pilots not based in LIS and not on LIS contracts, can and cannot take. You obviously feel we have a duty to support our colleagues in LIS. That may be so, however legally we cannot. I'm sure the company will be considering their legal position before rostering us to fly.
As for travelling to LIS to operate the flights; it is my earnest wish that it does not come to that. I have no desire to be involved in a dispute between my company and a group of pilots from another base on another contract. To say that to operate the aircraft would be 'beneath contempt' is unfair as not to do so could render me in breach of my contract and therefore vulnerable to dismissal. Who would you expect to support me, the LIS pilots? I think not.
As for travelling to LIS to operate the flights; it is my earnest wish that it does not come to that. I have no desire to be involved in a dispute between my company and a group of pilots from another base on another contract. To say that to operate the aircraft would be 'beneath contempt' is unfair as not to do so could render me in breach of my contract and therefore vulnerable to dismissal. Who would you expect to support me, the LIS pilots? I think not.
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Gorter thanks for your sarcasm but this is a public thread. I was asking generally what the view of BALPA is with the regard to the strike in Lisbon, I am not asking for any confidential information.
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A number of pilots took contracts at Lisbon to jump the Command queue leaving guys who would not settle for inferior contracts in the right hand seat . Now they've got what they wanted , they're claiming unfair treatment by the company !
If you're willing to sell your soul , you have to live with the consequences ........
If you're willing to sell your soul , you have to live with the consequences ........