Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

easyJet Lisbon pilots announcing 5 days of strike

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

easyJet Lisbon pilots announcing 5 days of strike

Old 18th Dec 2013, 16:17
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: uk
Posts: 902
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This from unionhistory.info

"Between 1980 and 1993 there were six Acts of Parliament which increasingly restricted unions' ability to undertake lawful industrial action. Secondary action, better known as 'sympathy strikes', was outlawed and picketing was restricted. Ballots were needed for official industrial action from 1984 and these had to be postal from 1993. Although unions have learned to use ballots as part of the negotiating process, they have imposed increasing financial costs, while the requirement to give employers seven days' notice further reduced unions' ability to respond quickly and potentially reduced the effectiveness of any action they took."

By the end of the seventies the pendulum was well and truly on the side of unions and the workforce. Did it then swing too far the other way? Possibly. Will it swing back? Given that no elected party has had this in a manifesto since then, unlikely for the forseeable future. Even the socialist (?) government with strong majorities between 1997-2010 wouldn't go there.

Should the TUC and/or individual unions (eg BALPA) campaign for a change in the law? Possibly, but my guess is that there is no political will in the parties that may form a government.

So....we are where we are, the laws on industrial action by uk workers and unions are very clear: https://www.gov.uk/industrial-action-strikes

It can't be wished away, much as some would like to.
deltahotel is offline  
Old 18th Dec 2013, 16:29
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 41
Posts: 372
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Is it secondary action to refuse to travel to somebody elses place of work and operate their equipment?

I understand that it is not as simple as that but I would be interested to hear balanced views on the law in this regard.
kungfu panda is offline  
Old 18th Dec 2013, 18:01
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: UK
Age: 52
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
in a word panda, yes
highflyer40 is offline  
Old 18th Dec 2013, 19:03
  #104 (permalink)  

Mach 3
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It can't be wished away, much as some would like to.
In a word, derisory, but nevertheless, represents the spirit of the age.

Thank God the abolitionists weren't of the same fortitude.

Increasingly, the law will come under pressure as it is found to be unreasonable and out of date for the society we find ourselves living in. Some prefer to be at the cusp of change, others, often comfortable with their lot, ride it out from the sidelines.

One often wonders why Doctors have managed to protect their T&C's in a way Pilots have not over the last 30 years. One of the major reasons must be that Doctors tend to enter their profession with a desire to look beyond themselves and care for others. Pilots, on the other hand, pursue a selfish interest to, slip the surly bonds. We just like flying.

Not unsurprisingly then, that selflessness on the part of Doctors has made sure that, collectively, as a group, their representation remains extremely strong. Because they look after each other.

Maybe if more of us stood up to be counted, we'd make a difference.
SR71 is offline  
Old 18th Dec 2013, 19:15
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: UK
Age: 52
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
that's just . Doctors have good T&C's because there is a shortage. there are no out of work doctors, more posts that can't be filled due to no staff.

I so think this is one of the MAIN problems with pilots today (or should I say the pilots of yesterday) they compare themselves to Doctors.

and you don't know doctors very well if you think they look after each other you won't find a group that back stabs and manipulates better than they do, ok well maybe pilots are better at that than doctors.
highflyer40 is offline  
Old 18th Dec 2013, 19:38
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: uk
Posts: 902
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
SR71. Not derisory, just true.
deltahotel is offline  
Old 18th Dec 2013, 19:54
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Was replying to kungfu pandas objection (which he has removed, so edited to say ) . . . if people hadn't been so willing to throw their own money at funding not only their licence, but their type rating to boot, there would be, if not a shortage, at least not an excess. . . as airlines wouldn't train too many pilots at their own expense just to keep the salaries down by virtue of "creating" too many candidates.

Sorry to say, but this rot has , at its roots, SSTR & P2F & the mentality that has continued thereafter.

If you were a "valued commodity" (I.E in plain language you cost the company some money) you wouldn't be dicked around with.

The last 10-15 years has seen individuals self-financing, to the ridiculous extent that we eventually arrived at the ultimate "bad joke" of paying to do "extended line operations". . . what, really, does the profession expect/imagine we command in the way of respect ,when all & sundry were willing to prostitute themselves to jump the Q regardless of experience/ability.

The current situation had the seeds sown by the imbeciles from the "want it & WANT IT NOW ! " generation who believed that seniority/meritocracy was best replaced by ability to pay.

Unfortunately, ALL of us in this industry are reaping the benefits of their ill founded short term mentality.

As for back-stabbing. . . well you know the old joke "more loyalty/fraternity to be found in a Bordelo" only problem . . it isn't a joke.

It seems many LIS crew may have accepted [email protected] to jump the Q . . .sounds familiar ? if that is the case, well, I hope you are subsequently able to repair the (self inflicted) damage caused by accepting T's & C's that were "below par".

Whilst I broadly accept that we should all stick together, if one group struck out alone for self-serving reasons, should they expect the others to rally to their aid when they finally choose to realise they sold themselves a lemon ?

I don't know the exact history of the LIS base, but it seems that some went into it with their eyes open (in one respect) but with no imagination vis a vis "half-promises" of what would "possibly" transpire in the future.

In spite of all this I wish them well, but I guess they should also accept, that it was their hand that put the signature on whatever crummy contract they now hold in their hand.

I think the only point that has any merit in a Doctor/Pilot comparison, is that (to the best of my knowledge) you cannot (well at least not in Europe AFAIK) go from zero to doctor & gain employment as a Doc purely by self financing. . . however, I stand willing to be proven wrong on that score too, as nowadays ? ? who knows.

Last edited by captplaystation; 18th Dec 2013 at 20:14.
captplaystation is offline  
Old 18th Dec 2013, 20:44
  #108 (permalink)  

Mach 3
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
SR71. Not derisory, just true.
I see what you did there.

that's just ****. Doctors have good T&C's because there is a shortage. there are no out of work doctors, more posts that can't be filled due to no staff.
Supply & Demand huh? P2F/SSTR?

Only serves to demonstrate my point. There is an excess of selfish pilots in the world when compared to selfless Doctors. After all, who wants to study for 7+ years (more like all your life) when you can command the "same" salary in 1.5? From whence does that rhetoric arise?

I'm sure there are all kinds of reason why the professional pay of Doctors and Pilots has diverged over the years.

Pilots exist along an employment continuum. Senior pilots were behind much of the UK SSTR/P2F malaise.

The UK prohibition against Secondary action seems convenient to some posters here. But you can guarantee, if you're content to sit back and watch from the sidelines, things will only get worse. I can't quite conceive of how that might make things better, can you?

PS:
I only went to University for 7 years.
SR71 is offline  
Old 19th Dec 2013, 11:20
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You need to be a hell of a lot brighter to become a doctor than you do to become a pilot. Medicine is an incredibly academic field. That's not to say pilots are all dumber than doctors. To get into the LHS of a UK airline, you will obviously have to display a high level of skill and intelligence. However, to get to study medicine in the UK you need pretty much straight A's in heavyweight A level subjects. This ensures a high likelihood of success during the subsequent 7 years of intense study. This is not the case for pilots. Thank ****!

Back to the subject in hand. Striking over XMAS so your colleagues have to miss their family Xmas is a crap idea.
WHYEYEMAN is offline  
Old 19th Dec 2013, 11:42
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I realise reading this text might a bit of a challenge for us dumb pilots , but here's a bit of light background reading about the state of play in Europe, and why under the present rule set any attempt at cross border Industrial Action is usually fecked:


http://www.europarl.europa.eu/docume...ATT24274EN.pdf

Section 3, the Laval-quartet, probably best illustrates where we are now legally, like it or not (I don't).

BALPA does get a mention, section 5.2 - at least they have been asking questions

Last edited by wiggy; 19th Dec 2013 at 11:57.
wiggy is offline  
Old 19th Dec 2013, 12:10
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Actually I think the reason that there is no Pay to Butcher is because not many of the general public would happily go under the scalpel of the latest rich kid wannabe surgeon. Certainly nobody that I know would anyway.

However, they appear to be more accepting of the flying version of PtB. Why? Knowledge, or lack thereof, of the risks involved. Maybe.

So who's really to blame for the current state of this industry? Rich kids, the airlines, the demanding public? All three.

Certainly not those of us who have been speaking out against P2F since it's inception. Should we help those of you who were happy to jump the queue and contribute to the slide, regardless of legality, because you didn't listen before? Or is it your hole to get yourself out of? Should I just look after my own affairs because you've nadgered the industry?
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  
Old 19th Dec 2013, 19:36
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: The IMF.
Posts: 537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
CAE PARC today looking for DEC easyJet LIS base.
Narrow Runway is offline  
Old 19th Dec 2013, 20:39
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Starting Christmas Eve????
WHYEYEMAN is offline  
Old 19th Dec 2013, 20:44
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: The IMF.
Posts: 537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yeah, failing that, April 1st I'm told.
Narrow Runway is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2013, 10:25
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 901
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Back in the late 70's when I left school if you wanted to be a doctor or a pilot the barrier to entry to these occupations was about equal, controlled by high academic requirements in the case of doctors and scarcity of opportunity for pilots. (P2F effectively still then existed in a minor way as the old self improver route via instructing. You had to have a substantial amount of money to learn to fly in the first place, followed on by paying for the various tests and exams along the way.) What changed was the 'scarcity of opportunity' in aviation and the explosion of flying jobs available first in Europe, now worldwide. If you look at today's school leavers the barriers to becoming a doctor are still largely academic. (Anyone who questions this should have a quick look at the BMAT and UK CAT tests required by many UK Med Schools, they are seriously challenging.) The academic barriers for pilots were 3 decent A Levels (the modern equivalent is a half reasonable degree), but what has changed is the surplus of people having access to huge lines of wealth or credit. So moderate academic requirements + ample availability of money = over supply of qualified candidates. Result continuous lowering of Reward.
Largely, I think the complaint that we have lost pay parity with the medics has been overstated. If you look at pay rates for Consultants/Registrars/etc down to 1st Year Post Grad doctors there is reasonable parity with Training Capts/ Line Capt/ Fo's in a legacy carrier. This diverges downwards if you take in the fixed pay rates offered by many LoCo's, but there are similar downward pressures on many of the less glamorous medical positions. Even the hardships of being a P2F cadet for a couple of years can be financially balanced by the 5 years a med student spends not earning and the 2 post grad years of poor pay.
The one big difference I can see is that the Medical Profession have been much better at working as a cohesive unit to maintain their Terms and Conditions at an appropriate level. Mainly this is achieved because there has always been a scarcity of supply of doctors with an ever increasing demand, but it would be interesting to observe how T&C's would change if the high academic barriers were lowered and Pay 2 Doctor was invented. I suspect the results would mirror our own predicament very quickly.
macdo is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2013, 18:22
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 41
Posts: 372
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My worry is not pay parity with Doctors it is that highly experienced and skilled Captains in Europe have pay on a downward trajectory rapidly approaching London Underground Train operators. I am sure LOCO Captains work harder, have fewer benefits and I have no doubt within 10 years their pay will be below Train drivers.

Is it the high educational requirements? or are the train drivers just more unified?
kungfu panda is offline  
Old 22nd Dec 2013, 08:51
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 735
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Actually I think the reason that there is no Pay to Butcher is because not many of the general public would happily go under the scalpel of the latest rich kid wannabe surgeon. Certainly nobody that I know would anyway.

However, they appear to be more accepting of the flying version of PtB. Why? Knowledge, or lack thereof, of the risks involved. Maybe.
Standard CRM stuff, a group is more likely to do something risky than an individual.

Nothing will change all the time there are 0 hour wonder kids willing to work for French fries. In my view this airline career path is dead. Accountants have seen the light, woken up and smelt the coffee and will fight tooth and nail to keep salaries down so not the effect the bottom line for share holders.

If you want change the only way is what the Lisbon guys are doing, period!

I hate unions, but this is what it's come to. Planes stop flying and profits stop coming and the company will start talking.
Deep and fast is offline  
Old 22nd Dec 2013, 09:50
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: The Wood
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You guys are putting doctors on WAAAAY too much of a pedestal.

Several medical schools in the UK, I hate to break it to you, are accepting people with 3 Cs at A level because they are deemed underprivileged:

BBC NEWS | UK | Education | Doctors qualify on access degree

Another dreadful one for it is that St Georges in Tooting. I also personally know of several people who have bypassed the standard school leaving process and gone into medicine as a 'mature student' - don't need much in the way of grades for that - just need the:

Foundation/pre-clinical year - Courses - Students - Medical Schools Council

I can think of about 6 doctors I know that are 'junior doctors' (two who begun as mature students) - In the most part they can't look after themselves - they're pasty, eat appallingly, don't exercise, have zero social skills and seem to just watch things at 'work' rather than do anything - which they will freely admit. They vacillate on 8 month placements in paediatrics etc. What they can do is lock themselves in a room and learn a book. Smashing. Speaking to family friends that are consultants they say the job is mind numbing - it's generally very routine with the same 'spikes' of difficulty that we have in our field.

Anyone who has qualified as an airline pilot will tell you that there is a huge amount of practical assessment early on in the training and career - non stop progress checks. A practical assessment isn't like theoretical assessment - it wasn't until I'd completed pilot training that I realised how easily theory exams are.


Then there's the fact that if a doctor screws up he or she kills one person. If we screw up we kill a lot more. If the doctor screws up they don't take their lives with them. If we screw up, we have it in the back of our minds that we too will die! Just because, with experience, this job can seem a breeze does not mean it is a breeze - that's why we ARE paid well - because we have experience and capacity to perform the job well inside an acceptable tolerance.

All of that said - I agree there needs to be far more filtration as to who can join this industry and who can not. No quotas, no short of bums on seats for courses, no who can afford it - just meritocracy and profile fit.
WhyByFlier is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2013, 09:58
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: The Wood
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
……And if our job is so easy to do and requires little in the way of anything - I do hope all crews flying into LGW this afternoon relish the G55 crosswind right across the runway. You'll earn your money as PF or PNF.
WhyByFlier is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2013, 10:20
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Put out to graze
Age: 62
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You'll earn a P45 if you land outside the aircraft limits of gusts 38!
kick the tires is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.